| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"Doug Bashford" |
| Date: |
05 Jun 2007 08:51:43 AM |
| Object: |
... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
In <1180570481.771408.24980@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
The Professor said about: Re: Torture in America
This Newsweek article is written in anti-Bush mode; it's not an
objective report. You buy into this crap because you've already
surrendered to the terrorists.
Heaven forbid we make a terrorist suspect pose naked before
a woman or go withouy sleep for three days! But, go ahead and
slaughter all the unborn children you want!
====================Please Consider this:
(Doug Bashford) wrote:
What would it take Jim, for you turn against them, to
conclude they were scumbags, or whatever?
How about If BushCo advocated that Americans can torture?
It all depends on your definition of torture. I have a real
problem with treating prisoners with kid gloves just so I won't
offend ***** liberals. Leftwing whiners seem to think
that sending them to bed without supper is torture, talking
too loudly at them is torture, putting their religious literature
on the TV is torture.
"treating prisoners with kid gloves??"
"sending them to bed without supper??"
Like this?
* Urinating on detainees
* Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded
by gunfire) with such force that it could not
thereafter heal properly
* Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg
with collapsible metal baton
* A baton-wielding U.S. soldier forcing an Iraqi
prisoner, covered in feces, to try to walk in a
straight line while his ankles are bound.
* the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators
* Two inmates "Hung by their arms from the ceiling and
beaten so severely that, according to a report by
Army investigators, their legs would have needed to be
amputated had they lived."
* made to crawl around the floor naked while U.S.
soldiers rode them like donkeys
* punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed
resuscitation.
* sodomized with lightsticks and brooms
* raped and sodomizeded female and child detainees
"As you do to the least among you, so you do unto me."
-------- Google:
CNN.com - Rumsfeld: Unreleased images 'cruel and
inhuman' - May 7 ...
A military report about that abuse describes
detainees being threatened,
sodomized with a chemical light and forced into
sexually. ...
www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/07/iraq.abuse.main/index.html
- 56k
[ More results from www.cnn.com ]
Nature of Abu Ghraib abuse - Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia
"The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling, and
the worst part is ... Taking photographs of dead Iraqi
detainees and MPs posing with cheerful looks. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_of_Abu_Ghraib_abuse - 31k
On March 15, 2006, Salon.com published the most extensive documentation of
the abuse.[54] The source who gave the CID material to Salon magazine is
familiar with the CID investigation.
"A review of all the computer media submitted to this office revealed
a total of 1,325 images of suspected detainee abuse, 93 video files of
suspected detainee abuse, 660 images of adult pornography, 546 images of
suspected dead Iraqi detainees, 29 images of soldiers in simulated sexual
acts, 20 images of a soldier with a Swastika drawn between his eyes, 37
images of Military Working dogs being used in abuse of detainees and 125
images of questionable acts."
The Abu Ghraib files
279 photographs and 19 videos from the Army's internal investigation record
a harrowing three months of detainee abuse inside the notorious prison --
and make clear that many of those responsible have yet to be held
accountable.
http://www.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib/2006/03/14/introduction/
CNN.com - General to testify on abuse probe - May 11,
2004
"There will be a full accounting for the cruel and
disgraceful abuse of Iraqi detainees," Bush said at the
Pentagon briefing. ...
www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.abuse.main/ -
57k
Taguba's 53-page report, classified "Secret" and dated
April 4, 2004, concluded that U.S. soldiers had
committed "egregious acts and grave breaches of
international law" at Abu Ghraib.[3] Taguba found that
between October and December 2003 there were numerous
instances of "sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal
abuses" of prisoners. In violation of Army regulations,
intelligence officers asked military police to "loosen
up" inmates before questioning. The report estimates
that 60% of the prisoners at the site were "not a
threat to society" and that the screening process was
so inadequate that innocent civilians were often
detained indefinitely. Guards invented their own rules
and supervisors approved of their actions.
New Iraq Prison Abuse Images Show 'Savage Beatings'
Another detainee described how US Army Specialist
Charles Graner and other US soldiers sodomized another
detainee with a phosphorescent light. ...
www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0521-03.htm - 15k
Former Iraqi Detainees Allege Torture by US Troops
Two former Iraqi detainees tell ABC News in an
exclusive interview that they ... of policy detainee
abuse," but it did not address the specific
allegations. ...
www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1115-08.htm - 20k
Pentagon Study Describes Abuse by Units in Iraq - New
York Times
Forum: The Transition in Iraq. The investigation is the
last of 12 major inquiries to be made public that focus
on allegations of detainee abuse by American ...
www.nytimes.com/2006/06/17/washington/17formica.html?ex=1308196800&en=704079ed00c9d82e&ei=5088&am...
Pentagon Study Describes Abuse by Units in Iraq -
New York Times
In a second case, General Formica said two Iraqi
detainees at a safe house in ... criminals that are out
there looking for detainees to abuse," he said. ...
www.nytimes.com/2006/06/17/washington/17formica.html?ex=1308196800en=704079ed00c9d82eei=5088partner=rssny...
These are just pointers Jim. Mild. Do some reading.
Find out what's on the world's TVs & headlines for a
change.
I'm getting tired of you evil Republican kneejerk defenders
of sleaze and organized sin. What could be more evil?
"As you do to the least among you, so you do unto me."
=====================end insert
On May 30, 4:22 pm, (Doug Bashford) wrote:
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
On 30 May 2007, MFOgilvie said about:
Re: Torture in America
On May 30, 1:20 pm, "Charles Aulds" <cau...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
"Taxi Driver" <CocksuckerRiceAlQu...@FoxNews.net> wrote:
There is no room for torture in a Democracy.
I'm no child. I know these things are wrong. I would have known that when
I was 12 years old (as my daughter did when she was twelve). Everyone else
........snips
And assuming that any of this is actually true,
You mean you do not KNOW!?
Are you stupid? Depraved? What!?
if it had been a (God
forbid) President Gore or President Kerry authorizing this, you would
be a silent as the grave. So shut up.
You gutless punks are all the same.
...you blame all evil on Dems, and if you cant get
away with that, you say, "You would do it too!"
laugh.
can you spell "projection?"
How about "irresponsible?"
You guys have been recruiting from the bottom
of the barral for so long, the scum has risen
to the top.
And now everydody sees it.
...about time.
--
When one gains a political certainty akin to
a loyal sports fan, one has achieved the final
tranquility of servitude, a joyous slavery.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
.
|
|
| User: "David Hartung" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
05 Jun 2007 09:03:36 AM |
|
|
Doug Bashford wrote:
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
In <1180570481.771408.24980@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
The Professor said about: Re: Torture in America
This Newsweek article is written in anti-Bush mode; it's not an
objective report. You buy into this crap because you've already
surrendered to the terrorists.
Heaven forbid we make a terrorist suspect pose naked before
a woman or go withouy sleep for three days! But, go ahead and
slaughter all the unborn children you want!
====================Please Consider this:
(Doug Bashford) wrote:
What would it take Jim, for you turn against them, to
conclude they were scumbags, or whatever?
How about If BushCo advocated that Americans can torture?
It all depends on your definition of torture. I have a real
problem with treating prisoners with kid gloves just so I won't
offend ***** liberals. Leftwing whiners seem to think
that sending them to bed without supper is torture, talking
too loudly at them is torture, putting their religious literature
on the TV is torture.
"treating prisoners with kid gloves??"
"sending them to bed without supper??"
Like this?
* Urinating on detainees
* Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded
by gunfire) with such force that it could not
thereafter heal properly
* Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg
with collapsible metal baton
* A baton-wielding U.S. soldier forcing an Iraqi
prisoner, covered in feces, to try to walk in a
straight line while his ankles are bound.
* the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators
* Two inmates "Hung by their arms from the ceiling and
beaten so severely that, according to a report by
Army investigators, their legs would have needed to be
amputated had they lived."
* made to crawl around the floor naked while U.S.
soldiers rode them like donkeys
* punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed
resuscitation.
* sodomized with lightsticks and brooms
* raped and sodomizeded female and child detainees
Your own cites indicate that the behavior you describe above is not tolerated by
our military. To put it another way, when we find that our people are abusing or
torturing their prisoners, the responsible parties are punished. In other words,
abuse and torture is not a policy of our government.
.
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|
| User: "Doug Bashford" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
05 Jun 2007 09:51:33 AM |
|
|
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
David Hartung said about: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
The Professor said about: Re: Torture in America
Heaven forbid we make a terrorist suspect pose naked before
a woman or go withouy sleep for three days! But, go ahead and
slaughter all the unborn children you want!
====================Please Consider this:
(Doug Bashford) wrote:
What would it take Jim, for you turn against them, to
conclude they were scumbags, or whatever?
How about If BushCo advocated that Americans can torture?
It all depends on your definition of torture. I have a real
problem with treating prisoners with kid gloves just so I won't
offend ***** liberals. Leftwing whiners seem to think
that sending them to bed without supper is torture, talking
too loudly at them is torture, putting their religious literature
on the TV is torture.
"treating prisoners with kid gloves??"
"sending them to bed without supper??"
Like this?
* Urinating on detainees
* Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded
by gunfire) with such force that it could not
thereafter heal properly
* Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg
with collapsible metal baton
* A baton-wielding U.S. soldier forcing an Iraqi
prisoner, covered in feces, to try to walk in a
straight line while his ankles are bound.
* the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators
* Two inmates "Hung by their arms from the ceiling and
beaten so severely that, according to a report by
Army investigators, their legs would have needed to be
amputated had they lived."
* made to crawl around the floor naked while U.S.
soldiers rode them like donkeys
* punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed
resuscitation.
* sodomized with lightsticks and brooms
* raped and sodomizeded female and child detainees
Your own cites indicate that the behavior you describe above is not tolerated by
our military.
Is that so? Please point this out to us.
To put it another way, when we find that our people are abusing or
torturing their prisoners, the responsible parties are punished.
Oh really!? Besides a few underlings, please name those
who were punished for all that torture.
In other words,
abuse and torture is not a policy of our government.
That's not what these righty publications, some of
them fairly respectable, say:
----------google:
Reason Magazine - Hit & Run > Some Genuinely Harmful Outsourcing
Here's Powell's memo on the Gonzales proposal. But let's face it. ...
Torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib soon became routine. (The Economist,
November 2004) ...
www.reason.com/blog/show/107332.html - 50k -
America's shameful practices - Editorials/Op-Ed - The Washington ...
Such reliable sources as the Economist and Financial Times have reported on
.... Mr. Gonzales orchestrated the notorious "torture memos," which set such
....
www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060319-103854-2324r.htm - 44k -
Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia, the free ...
The Economist calls for Secretary Rumsfeld's resignation ..... [82] The
source who gave the CID material to Salon magazine is familiar with the CID
....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse - 184k
American Conservative Magazine -- Power of the Pen
After White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales publicly declared that Bush
enjoyed a “commander in chief override” regarding laws prohibiting torture,
....
www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_07_03/feature.html - 32k -
American Conservative Magazine -- Hunger for Dictatorship
Pointing to the justification of torture by conservative legal theorists,
... Letters that come to this magazine from the pro-war Right leave no
doubt that ...
www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html - 33k - Cached
Big Monkey, Helpy Chalk: Article in American Conservative ...
Again via Steve H. Jim Bovard in American Conservative magazine denouncing
torture and the Military Commissions Act: "The new law -far more dangerous
than ...
helpychalk.blogspot.com/2006/12/article-in-american-conservative.html -
89k -
=========
You were saying?
Why is it all you guys have is distortions
and half-truths? Plus evil straw men and hate/fear?
Doesn't that bug you, David?
--Doug
--
When one gains a political certainty akin to
a loyal sports fan, one has achieved the final
tranquility of servitude, a joyous slavery.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
.
|
|
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| User: "David Hartung" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
05 Jun 2007 11:11:17 AM |
|
|
Doug Bashford wrote:
That's not what these righty publications, some of
them fairly respectable, say:
----------google:
Reason Magazine - Hit & Run > Some Genuinely Harmful Outsourcing
Here's Powell's memo on the Gonzales proposal. But let's face it. ...
Torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib soon became routine. (The Economist,
November 2004) ...
www.reason.com/blog/show/107332.html - 50k -
For some reason the link yo posted did not bring up the article, all it showed
were comments. From the comments, it seems that the author was referring to
claims the the US government deliberately sent prisoners to countries in which
torture was accepted. To my knowledge, this claim was never substantiated.
America's shameful practices - Editorials/Op-Ed - The Washington ...
Such reliable sources as the Economist and Financial Times have reported on
... Mr. Gonzales orchestrated the notorious "torture memos," which set such
...
www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060319-103854-2324r.htm - 44k -
An oped piece with no substantiation.
Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia, the free ...
The Economist calls for Secretary Rumsfeld's resignation ..... [82] The
source who gave the CID material to Salon magazine is familiar with the CID
...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse - 184k
Not a valid link.
American Conservative Magazine -- Power of the Pen
After White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales publicly declared that Bush
enjoyed a “commander in chief override” regarding laws prohibiting torture,
...
www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_07_03/feature.html - 32k -
No evidence that the USA tortures as a matter of policy.
American Conservative Magazine -- Hunger for Dictatorship
Pointing to the justification of torture by conservative legal theorists,
.. Letters that come to this magazine from the pro-war Right leave no
doubt that ...
www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html - 33k - Cached
Once again, no evidence that the USA tortures as a matter of policy.
Big Monkey, Helpy Chalk: Article in American Conservative ...
Again via Steve H. Jim Bovard in American Conservative magazine denouncing
torture and the Military Commissions Act: "The new law -far more dangerous
than ...
helpychalk.blogspot.com/2006/12/article-in-american-conservative.html -
89k -
Not a valid link.
=========
You were saying?
That you have once again failed to suport your contention that the USA engages
in the torture as a matter of policy.
Why is it all you guys have is distortions
and half-truths? Plus evil straw men and hate/fear?
Your post indicates that it is you who is engaging in untruth, or half truths.
.
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| User: "Doug Bashford" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???? |
20 Jun 2007 10:49:51 PM |
|
|
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, On Tue, 05 Jun 2007, David Hartung said about:
Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
.........snip
American Conservative Magazine -- Power of the Pen
After White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales publicly declared that Bush
enjoyed a “commander in chief override” regarding laws prohibiting torture,
...
www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_07_03/feature.html - 32k -
No evidence that the USA tortures as a matter of policy.
American Conservative Magazine -- Hunger for Dictatorship
Pointing to the justification of torture by conservative legal theorists,
.. Letters that come to this magazine from the pro-war Right leave no
doubt that ...
www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html - 33k - Cached
Once again, no evidence that the USA tortures as a matter of policy.
Back before the Iraq War had begun Rumsfeld was busy making a preemptive
strike on the Geneva Conventions, characterizing complaints as "isolated
pockets of international hyperventilation."
So you buy into that?
...........snip
=========
You were saying?
That you have once again failed to suport your contention that the USA engages
in the torture as a matter of policy.
What kind of evidence would you accept?
Besides a note from GOD or a BushCo confession???
Please tell us.
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:49:03 GMT, El Kabong said about:
Smoking Gun: Rumsfeld ordered torture
Smoking Gun: Rumsfeld ordered torture
There was no "smoking gun" found in Iraq in the form of WMD because there
was no smoking gun of that flavor to be found.
A smoking gun of a different flavor has surfaced, however, placing Rumsfeld
at the helm of torture at Abu Ghraib and beyond.
Sure, it's something that's been "understood" to have been sanctioned "from
above" for the past 4 years, but now Janis Karpinski, former head of Abu
Ghraib prison, has told a Spanish newspaper that she is willing to testify
that Rumsfeld "personally authorized" torture at Abu Ghraib (Video
http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/evan/44781
Why she went to a Spanish newspaper to make this claim is anyone's best
guess.
Reuters:
"The handwritten signature was above his printed name and in the same
handwriting in the margin was written: "Make sure this is accomplished","
she told Saturday's El Pais.
"The methods consisted of making prisoners stand for
long periods, sleep deprivation ... playing music at full volume,
having to sit in uncomfortably ... Rumsfeld authorized these
specific techniques."
The Geneva Convention says prisoners of war should suffer "no physical
or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion" to secure information.
When the Abu Ghraib scandal came to light in the form of a Seymour Hersh
article and a shocking 60 Minutes II broadcast in April of 2004, Rumsfeld
and the new stenographers, glommed onto the "bad apples" theory.
It was just the work of some bad people acting independently, they
claimed.
Of course, even were the bad apple theory valid...
Lt. Gen Ricardo Sanchez and then-Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld would be
accomplices as they ignored the "Taguba Report" detailing sadistic and
disturbing treatment at Abu Ghraib leading up to the more infamous
incidents documented in the infamous photos.
From the Taguba Report, on treatment at Abu Ghraib between Oct & Dec, 2003
and submitted on February 26, 2004:
6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military
police personnel included the following acts:
a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their
naked feet;
b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit
positions for photographing;
d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them
naked for several days at a time;
e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;
f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while
being photographed and videotaped;
g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on
them;
h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his
head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate
electric torture;
i. (S) Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee
alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee,
and then photographing him naked;
j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and
having a female Soldier pose for a picture;
k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and
frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a
detainee;
m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
Back before the Iraq War had begun Rumsfeld was busy making a preemptive
strike on the Geneva Conventions, characterizing complaints as "isolated
pockets of international hyperventilation." Those isolated pockets have
successfully, albeit slowly, exposed Rumsfeld's "techniques" to the world.
These days, "isolated pockets" are seeking war crimes trials against the
Secretary in Germany.
Testifying against him, should the suit make it to
trial, will be former U.S. Army Brigadier General (now Colonel)
Janis Karpinski.
Many people are not aware that
the current "immigration reform" bills have provisions
to also flood the market with high-tech and other high-pay
jobs. Why not hire discount immigrants to do the job, hire
those who don't demand American salaries, vactions, and all
that expensive stuff that Americans have earned?
And personal experience is, illegal day laborors in
Truckee CA turn down less than $15/hr. Immigrants in
in Fresno in roofing make $9/hr, one-time $15-$20/hr
jobs once held by middle class working Americans.
By and large, they are not working for mini-wage.
The Job Market is Like Any Market, just Bigger
Since the job market is like any other market, the economic rules
of supply-and-demand apply: Flood the market and demand drops
- causing wages, job security and benefits to also drop.
But employers love this. A sinking tide lowers all boats,
- not quite.
The Swift meat-packing plant in Greeley CO was raided and
over 1,000 Latin illegal aliens were arrested. Two days
later the line was out the door with mostly white Americans
seeking those same jobs! The slogan; "They do the work that
Americans will not," is employer propaganda, and simply
against the basic rules of economics which say that a local
shortage is impossible in a free market. What they really
mean is; "Americans will not work at Mexican wages, boo hoo."
And they expect Congress to JUMP.
They don't REALLY want a free market, what they REALLY want is
artificial/illegal over-supply. That too, is a simple economic
principle called, "public costs, private profits," (sometimes
called facism, or shady dealings, and is often highly illegal).
In WWII there was a real labor shortage. This was solved
with temporary work permits to Mexicans and was called
the 1942 Bracero program. It somehow continued until 1964.
Many Mexicans were never paid in full, and from a
humanitarian standpoint, was deemed a complete and utter
failure. However, agribusiness etc, got a taste of cheap
labor, and via political trickery, never gave it up.
The Real Problem
The problem is not Illegal Aliens, but Illegal Employers.
Start prosecuting Illegal Employers and we will need to
open our borders to let the newly unemployed Illegal Aliens
flood back into Mexico. Problem solved. It's that easy.
It's that quick. It's that cheap. Economic priciples at work.
But if it doesn't stay that simple it will fail, as
we shall see, as history (1986+) has shown.
(Gards and walls ignore economic priciples,
thus always fail.)
The Washington Post noted in a
shocking article on June 19, 2006:
1) "Between 1999 and 2003, work-site immigration enforcement
operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration
and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was submerged
into the Homeland Security Department.
2) "The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully
employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to 4 in 2003.
3) "Fines collected dropped from $3,600,000 to $212,000
according to federal statistics.
4) "In 1999, the United States initiated fines against
417 companies. In 2004, it issued only 3 fine notices."
The hiring crimes of Illegal Employers are being ignored
by the law, and rewarded by the economic systems of the nation.
We see a repackaging of a remarkably similar bill of goods,
the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, now openly
called the Amnesty bill, which included in part a
hard-fought compromise: tough employer laws. Some Big
Things were given up to get that. But soon after the bill
was passed, that part was forgotten, not enforced, and
basically shitcanned. Big Money spoke. This is why REAL
immigration reform must not be a complex cobbling together
of conflicting sides. We want it, or we do not.
We must have a simple bill where failure can not be
conveniently passed around l
.
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| User: "Doug Bashford" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
07 Jun 2007 12:20:15 AM |
|
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David Hartung said about:
Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
That's not what these righty publications, some of
them fairly respectable, say:
----------google:
Reason Magazine - Hit & Run > Some Genuinely Harmful Outsourcing
Here's Powell's memo on the Gonzales proposal. But let's face it. ...
Torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib soon became routine. (The Economist,
November 2004) ...
www.reason.com/blog/show/107332.html - 50k -
For some reason the link yo posted did not bring up the article, all it showed
were comments. From the comments, it seems that the author was referring to
claims the the US government deliberately sent prisoners to countries in which
torture was accepted. To my knowledge, this claim was never substantiated.
Perhaps you confuse "substantiated" with "admited by the perps."
OJ Simpson never admited to murder, nor has he been proven
guilty of that crime. Will you claim that murder has not been
substantiated?
You are playing word games David.
Or have partisan mind filters blinded you?
Or are you simply lying?
Your careful choice of words suggest this.
Much like Bush's "16 words" at his State of Union, etc.
America's shameful practices - Editorials/Op-Ed - The Washington ...
Such reliable sources as the Economist and Financial Times have reported on
... Mr. Gonzales orchestrated the notorious "torture memos," which set such
...
www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060319-103854-2324r.htm - 44k -
An oped piece with no substantiation.
Perhaps. ...an oped from a right wing newspaper, tho.
But opeds don't come out of thin air, unlike
Limbaughtomyville, Freeperville, etc.
One would think newspaper men are more aware of
the facts than say, your bowling team or Rush Limbaugh.
Particularly when they might be upsetting fellow righties.
Does this really sound fully "unstantiated" to you?????
It says in part:
===============insert
Appearing in London before the International Institute for
Strategic Studies in March, U.S. Attorney General Alberto
Gonzales, the Associated Press reported, responded to mounting
criticisms abroad, including from allies, of our treatment of
imprisoned terrorism suspects. His statements were so far from
documented abuses, including torture, of detainees, that he
forfeited his credibility among anyone knowledgeable about human
rights.
Speaking of what the CIA perpetrates -- and calls
"extraordinary renditions" -- he denied that we kidnap and send
terrorism suspects to countries, such as Syria, known for
torturing their prisoners. I have written in this column and
have a burgeoning file about CIA "renditions" as documented by
New York University Law School's Center for Human Rights and
Global Justice; Human Rights First; Amnesty International; Human
Rights Watch, et al.
Such reliable sources as the Economist and Financial Times
have reported on these CIA violations of American and
international law, and former CIA agents involved in these
kidnappings have spoken of them on CBS-TV's "60 Minutes" and
elsewhere.
Moreover, in a Dec. 14 editorial -- "U.S. Tactics on Terror Are
Making Europe Examine Its Complicity" -- the Financial Times
declared: "Many Europeans argue that the Bush administration
seems not to understand that maltreatment of prisoners can
provide a rallying cry for terrorist movements."
Surely Mr. Gonzales' London audience was also aware of
inquiries underway in Europe on whether officials of certain
countries there have cooperated in these CIA kidnappings. Italian
and Canadian citizens who have been victims of these "renditions"
have detailed the torture they experienced during these American
operations.
Yet Mr. Gonzales assured his London audience -- as our
president also repeatedly does -- that "the U.S. abhors torture
and categorically rejects its use."
===============snip, end insert
So Gonzales and BushCo are the loners in the world who claim
they never ate the cookies they fought so hard to claim,
(legalize) and you choose to believe them, -- no problem, --
but come on Dave, you EXPECT objective, reality based people to
swallow that too!?
Cough.
Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia, the free ...
The Economist calls for Secretary Rumsfeld's resignation ..... [82] The
source who gave the CID material to Salon magazine is familiar with the CID
...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse - 184k
Not a valid link.
You cant find wiki !???
Mindfilters come in many flavors Dave.
I simply quote Google.
You cant work Google?
Mindfilter come in many flavors Dave.
Look in the mirror.
You aint interested in the other side
of the story, the facts, are you?
You just want rah-rah points right?
You just want rah-rah points right?
How do you feel about intellectual dishonesty, David?
How do you feel about "not being able to work Goggle,"
when it suits your rah-rah kneejerk "cause?"
Cuz you are laying a mozaic which LOUDLY spells
rah-rah kneejerk "cause."
You have been brainwashed David.
You are intellectually helpless,
you are letting yourself become a clone.
A clone of the Rich Boys.
How do you feel about that evidence, David
who is intermitantly helpless to Google?
Helpless and paralized. A tool.
American Conservative Magazine -- Power of the Pen
After White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales publicly declared that Bush
enjoyed a “commander in chief override” regarding laws prohibiting torture,
...
www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_07_03/feature.html - 32k -
No evidence that the USA tortures as a matter of policy.
Again, Rumsfeld's note.
Need I mention Alberto "torture memo" Gonzales'
uhm.... torture memo??
How about Bush fighting to legalize it?
We know you aint stupid David.
So what are you?
What are you David? Are we wrong about you?
I don't think so. You aint stupid.
You'v been brainwashed helpless.
a helpless tool.
a loud one.
loud and largly incoherent.
Conservatives fear Big Government abuse of
individuals more than anything, right?
Or was that just "last year?"
....when "politics points" could be made?
Do you guys actually care about ANYTHING???
Do you even know what "character" is?
American Conservative Magazine -- Hunger for Dictatorship
Pointing to the justification of torture by conservative legal theorists,
.. Letters that come to this magazine from the pro-war Right leave no
doubt that ...
www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html - 33k - Cached
Once again, no evidence that the USA tortures as a matter of policy.
Do careful word games actually give you comfort David?
Do they give you a sense of being right in this
matter of grave importance?
Big Monkey, Helpy Chalk: Article in American Conservative ...
Again via Steve H. Jim Bovard in American Conservative magazine denouncing
torture and the Military Commissions Act: "The new law -far more dangerous
than ...
helpychalk.blogspot.com/2006/12/article-in-american-conservative.html -
89k -
Not a valid link.
I rest my case David.
--Doug
=========
You were saying?
That you have once again failed to suport your contention that the USA engages
in the torture as a matter of policy.
Why is it all you guys have is distortions
and half-truths? Plus evil straw men and hate/fear?
Your post indicates that it is you who is engaging in untruth, or half truths.
--
When one gains a political certainty akin to
a loyal sports fan, one has achieved the final
tranquility of servitude, a joyous slavery.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "David Hartung" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
05 Jun 2007 10:57:47 AM |
|
|
Doug Bashford wrote:
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
David Hartung said about: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
The Professor said about: Re: Torture in America
Heaven forbid we make a terrorist suspect pose naked before
a woman or go withouy sleep for three days! But, go ahead and
slaughter all the unborn children you want!
====================Please Consider this:
(Doug Bashford) wrote:
What would it take Jim, for you turn against them, to
conclude they were scumbags, or whatever?
How about If BushCo advocated that Americans can torture?
It all depends on your definition of torture. I have a real
problem with treating prisoners with kid gloves just so I won't
offend ***** liberals. Leftwing whiners seem to think
that sending them to bed without supper is torture, talking
too loudly at them is torture, putting their religious literature
on the TV is torture.
"treating prisoners with kid gloves??"
"sending them to bed without supper??"
Like this?
* Urinating on detainees
* Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded
by gunfire) with such force that it could not
thereafter heal properly
* Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg
with collapsible metal baton
* A baton-wielding U.S. soldier forcing an Iraqi
prisoner, covered in feces, to try to walk in a
straight line while his ankles are bound.
* the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators
* Two inmates "Hung by their arms from the ceiling and
beaten so severely that, according to a report by
Army investigators, their legs would have needed to be
amputated had they lived."
* made to crawl around the floor naked while U.S.
soldiers rode them like donkeys
* punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed
resuscitation.
* sodomized with lightsticks and brooms
* raped and sodomizeded female and child detainees
Your own cites indicate that the behavior you describe above is not tolerated by
our military.
Is that so? Please point this out to us.
To put it another way, when we find that our people are abusing or
torturing their prisoners, the responsible parties are punished.
Oh really!? Besides a few underlings, please name those
who were punished for all that torture.
There is no evidence that the torture was ever anything but the actions of some
troops acting outside the bounds of policy.
Because she did not prevent these actions, or discipline those who engaged in
them, the commander of the prison was relieved.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Bashford" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
07 Jun 2007 12:20:31 AM |
|
|
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, David Hartung said about:
Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
David Hartung said about: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
The Professor said about: Re: Torture in America
Heaven forbid we make a terrorist suspect pose naked before
a woman or go withouy sleep for three days! But, go ahead and
slaughter all the unborn children you want!
====================Please Consider this:
(Doug Bashford) wrote:
What would it take Jim, for you turn against them, to
conclude they were scumbags, or whatever?
How about If BushCo advocated that Americans can torture?
It all depends on your definition of torture. I have a real
problem with treating prisoners with kid gloves just so I won't
offend ***** liberals. Leftwing whiners seem to think
that sending them to bed without supper is torture, talking
too loudly at them is torture, putting their religious literature
on the TV is torture.
"treating prisoners with kid gloves??"
"sending them to bed without supper??"
Like this?
* Urinating on detainees
* Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded
by gunfire) with such force that it could not
thereafter heal properly
* Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg
with collapsible metal baton
* A baton-wielding U.S. soldier forcing an Iraqi
prisoner, covered in feces, to try to walk in a
straight line while his ankles are bound.
* the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators
* Two inmates "Hung by their arms from the ceiling and
beaten so severely that, according to a report by
Army investigators, their legs would have needed to be
amputated had they lived."
* made to crawl around the floor naked while U.S.
soldiers rode them like donkeys
* punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed
resuscitation.
* sodomized with lightsticks and brooms
* raped and sodomizeded female and child detainees
Your own cites indicate that the behavior you describe above is not tolerated by
our military.
Is that so? Please point this out to us.
To put it another way, when we find that our people are abusing or
torturing their prisoners, the responsible parties are punished.
Oh really!? Besides a few underlings, please name those
who were punished for all that torture.
There is no evidence that the torture was ever anything but the actions of some
troops acting outside the bounds of policy.
Because she did not prevent these actions, or discipline those who engaged in
them, the commander of the prison was relieved.
That general "did not prevent these actions" because
she had a hand written note posted in the prison by
Rumsfeld himself authorizing its like.
This is well publicized David. Why are you unaware of it?
Are you THAT badly mind filtered?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Are you a poor victim of Righty propaganda, self-limiting your
news input to their mind bending machine? ...like
FOX and the freepers, etc? ...excluding all else????
Or are you simply lying too?
This may sound like I am simply trying to score
"debate points" here. Not entirely David.
I really am curious about why you do this,
over and over again, facts be damned.
I really am concerned - or say, curious about you David, not
you personally, but about seemingly normal people who do what you
do, in spite of reality.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Do you see my point? Your behaviour is so bizzare,
it inspires curiosity. You don't seem nuts, other
than than acting like this.
Are you a well-intended victim, or are you filthy scum?
That's what the well-informed want to know about you and
your kind. I hope you'l give this some reality-based
thought, as if I were real, and give us dumbfounded
some clues about your nature. I'm thinking you must have
some validity that we just cant see. Cuz it seems from
this blurry sided of the keyboard as if those on your team
are acting like little more than kneejerk mindless cheerleaders.
....as if running this nation (OUR job) is run by the
same rules as feelsgood sports rootin tootin, blind loyalty
and plenty of bombastic VOLUME.
What is our error, David?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
Sociopaths care not for either.
The stupid chant much louder than them all.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
What is our error, David?
--Doug
=========
Is that so?
February 14, 2005 Issue
Copyright © 2005 The American Conservative
The Truth About Torture
by William Pfaff
--
When one gains a political certainty akin to
a loyal sports fan, one has achieved the final
tranquility of servitude, a joyous slavery.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
.
|
|
|
| User: "David Hartung" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
07 Jun 2007 06:08:38 AM |
|
|
Doug Bashford wrote:
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, David Hartung said about:
Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
David Hartung said about: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
The Professor said about: Re: Torture in America
Heaven forbid we make a terrorist suspect pose naked before
a woman or go withouy sleep for three days! But, go ahead and
slaughter all the unborn children you want!
====================Please Consider this:
(Doug Bashford) wrote:
What would it take Jim, for you turn against them, to
conclude they were scumbags, or whatever?
How about If BushCo advocated that Americans can torture?
It all depends on your definition of torture. I have a real
problem with treating prisoners with kid gloves just so I won't
offend ***** liberals. Leftwing whiners seem to think
that sending them to bed without supper is torture, talking
too loudly at them is torture, putting their religious literature
on the TV is torture.
"treating prisoners with kid gloves??"
"sending them to bed without supper??"
Like this?
* Urinating on detainees
* Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded
by gunfire) with such force that it could not
thereafter heal properly
* Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg
with collapsible metal baton
* A baton-wielding U.S. soldier forcing an Iraqi
prisoner, covered in feces, to try to walk in a
straight line while his ankles are bound.
* the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators
* Two inmates "Hung by their arms from the ceiling and
beaten so severely that, according to a report by
Army investigators, their legs would have needed to be
amputated had they lived."
* made to crawl around the floor naked while U.S.
soldiers rode them like donkeys
* punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed
resuscitation.
* sodomized with lightsticks and brooms
* raped and sodomizeded female and child detainees
Your own cites indicate that the behavior you describe above is not tolerated by
our military.
Is that so? Please point this out to us.
To put it another way, when we find that our people are abusing or
torturing their prisoners, the responsible parties are punished.
Oh really!? Besides a few underlings, please name those
who were punished for all that torture.
There is no evidence that the torture was ever anything but the actions of some
troops acting outside the bounds of policy.
Because she did not prevent these actions, or discipline those who engaged in
them, the commander of the prison was relieved.
That general "did not prevent these actions" because
she had a hand written note posted in the prison by
Rumsfeld himself authorizing its like.
Evidence?
This is well publicized David. Why are you unaware of it?
Are you THAT badly mind filtered?
If it is so well publicized, you should have no trouble supporting your claim.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Bashford" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
07 Jun 2007 11:32:47 AM |
|
|
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:08:38 -0500,
David Hartung said about:
Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
........big snip
Evidence?
This is well publicized David. Why are you unaware of it?
Are you THAT badly mind filtered?
If it is so well publicized, you should have no trouble
supporting your claim.
This is well publicized David. Why are you unaware of it?
Are you THAT badly mind filtered?
The fact that higher-ups in the military and BushCo either were
aware of of the torture, or encouraged it, and either
were not punished or were promoted!??
Here's the problem Dave.
Even if I proved that to your satisfaction,
(as I said earlier, due to your brainwashing,
I think this may be theoretically impossible,)
you would STILL be a BushCo toady, wouldn't you?
....you would argue is was OK or something, wouldn't you?
So let me ask you another question.
What kind of evidence would it take to
convince you that the Republicans have
become the party of sleaze and scumbags?
What kind of evidence would change your mind.
A note from GOD? Bush giving a speech dressed
in a Nazi uniform? ...or quoting Hitler?
I presume those MIGHT change yer mind.
But I'm speaking about evidence likely to be
found in the real world.
What would it take, Dave?
What kind of evidence will you accept?
I think due to your mind filters, you will reject
the evidence that everybody else sees, AGAIN. So tell me what
kind of evidence would change your mind.
A confession from BushCO??? the RNC? from Limbaugh?
Laughing. You see my point?
That's about what it would take, isn't it David?
You have no free thought left. Reality cannot affect you.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
....cuz you obviously missed the evidence in real time, and in
all the hearings and news stories the first time around.
I want to know what it would take to get thru to you.
So tell us what kind of evidence would change your mind.
Let's see how reasonable you are.
But I don't think you can. Cuz NO FACTS could change yer mind.
Can they, David? Cuz you are a blind, brainwashed Republican.
--Doug
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
Sociopaths care not for either.
But the stupid chant louder than all.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
--
When one gains a political certainty akin to
a loyal sports fan, one has achieved the final
tranquility of servitude, a joyous slavery.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Bashford" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
07 Jun 2007 10:56:38 AM |
|
|
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, David Hartung said about:
Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
David Hartung said
Doug Bashford wrote:
David Hartung said about: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
The Professor said
Heaven forbid we make a terrorist suspect pose naked before
a woman or go withouy sleep for three days! But, go ahead and
slaughter all the unborn children you want!
====================Please Consider this:
(Doug Bashford) wrote:
"treating prisoners with kid gloves??"
"sending them to bed without supper??"
Like this?
* Urinating on detainees
* Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded
by gunfire) with such force that it could not
thereafter heal properly
* the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators
* Two inmates "Hung by their arms from the ceiling and
beaten so severely that, according to a report by
Army investigators, their legs would have needed to be
amputated had they lived."
In fact, that was done right the hall from the prison boss.
This was not hidden.
Your own cites indicate that the behavior you describe above is not tolerated by
our military.
Is that so? Please point this out to us.
To put it another way, when we find that our people are abusing or
torturing their prisoners, the responsible parties are punished.
Oh really!? Besides a few underlings, please name those
who were punished for all that torture.
There is no evidence that the torture was ever anything but the actions of some
troops acting outside the bounds of policy.
Because she did not prevent these actions, or discipline those who engaged in
them, the commander of the prison was relieved.
That general "did not prevent these actions" because
she had a hand written note posted in the prison by
Rumsfeld himself authorizing its like.
Evidence?
This is well publicized David. Why are you unaware of it?
Are you THAT badly mind filtered?
If it is so well publicized, you should have no trouble
supporting your claim.
The fact that higher-ups in the military and BushCo either were
aware of of the torture, or encouraged it, and either
were not punished or were promoted!??
Are you deaf David!? How could you not know about this?
Ok, you want evidence. (yeah right!) What kind will you accept?
I think due to your mind filters, you will reject
the evidence that everybody else sees, AGAIN. So tell me what
kind of evidence would change your mind. A note from GOD?
A confession from BushCO??? the RNC? from Limbaugh?
Laughing.
That's about what it would take, isn't it David?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
....cuz you obviously missed the evidence in real time, and in
all the hearings and news stories the first time around.
I want to know what it would take to get thru to you.
So tell us what kind of evidence would change your mind.
Let's see how reasonable you are.
But I don't think you can. Cuz NO FACTS could change yer mind.
Can they, David? Cuz you are a Republican.
--Doug
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
Sociopaths care not for either.
But the stupid chant louder than all.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
--
When one gains a political certainty akin to
a loyal sports fan, one has achieved the final
tranquility of servitude, a joyous slavery.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
.
|
|
|
| User: "David Hartung" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
07 Jun 2007 11:30:45 AM |
|
|
Doug Bashford wrote:
Are you deaf David!? How could you not know about this?
Because all that has been in the news, is claims from sources which are
questionable, at best.
The reliable information available now, indicates that the mistreatment of
prisoners was done by rogue individuals, and was not a part of any USA policy.
As I have repeatedly said, produce verified evidence to the contrary, and we can
talk.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Bashford" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
07 Jun 2007 11:46:15 AM |
|
|
David Hartung said
Doug Bashford wrote:
Are you deaf David!? How could you not know about this?
The fact that higher-ups in the military and BushCo either were
aware of of the torture, or encouraged it, and either
were not punished or were promoted!??
Because all that has been in the news, is claims from sources which are
questionable, at best.
As I just said, you will reject all evidence.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
....which is why I specifically asked what kind
of *specific* evidence you would accept.
Is that unreasonable? Why are you avoiding this?
The reliable information available now, indicates that the mistreatment of
prisoners was done by rogue individuals, and was not a part of any USA policy.
That's hogwash.
As I have repeatedly said, produce verified evidence to
the contrary, and we can talk.
As I just said, you will reject all evidence.
....which is why I *specifically* asked what kind
of *specific* evidence you would accept. Why are you hiding
from this request?
Because the answer is: "None?"
Or, "a signed confession from BushCo" or GOD?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Feeling uncomfortable about now Dave?
--
When one gains a political certainty akin to
a loyal sports fan, one has achieved the final
tranquility of servitude, a joyous slavery.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
.
|
|
|
| User: "David Hartung" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
07 Jun 2007 12:01:08 PM |
|
|
Doug Bashford wrote:
David Hartung said
Doug Bashford wrote:
Are you deaf David!? How could you not know about this?
The fact that higher-ups in the military and BushCo either were
aware of of the torture, or encouraged it, and either
were not punished or were promoted!??
Because all that has been in the news, is claims from sources which are
questionable, at best.
As I just said, you will reject all evidence.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
...which is why I specifically asked what kind
of *specific* evidence you would accept.
Is that unreasonable? Why are you avoiding this?
The reliable information available now, indicates that the mistreatment of
prisoners was done by rogue individuals, and was not a part of any USA policy.
That's hogwash.
As I have repeatedly said, produce verified evidence to
the contrary, and we can talk.
As I just said, you will reject all evidence.
...which is why I *specifically* asked what kind
of *specific* evidence you would accept. Why are you hiding
from this request?
Read what I said.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Bashford" |
|
| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
07 Jun 2007 12:37:25 PM |
|
|
David Hartung said about:
Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
David Hartung said
Doug Bashford wrote:
Are you deaf David!? How could you not know about this?
The fact that higher-ups in the military and BushCo either were
aware of of the torture, or encouraged it, and either
were not punished or were promoted!??
Because all that has been in the news, is claims from sources which are
questionable, at best.
As I just said, you will reject all evidence.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
...which is why I specifically asked what kind
of *specific* evidence you would accept.
Is that unreasonable? Why are you avoiding this?
The reliable information available now, indicates that the mistreatment of
prisoners was done by rogue individuals, and was not a part of any USA policy.
That's hogwash.
As I have repeatedly said, produce verified evidence to
the contrary, and we can talk.
As I just said, you will reject all evidence.
...which is why I *specifically* asked what kind
of *specific* evidence you would accept. Why are you hiding
from this request?
Read what I said.
I did. You said:
news, is claims from sources which are
**questionable,** at best.
...in other words, not from Limbaughtomyville.
and you said, just as I predicted:
***The reliable information*** available now, indicates....
Anybody home? You just said that anything I come up with,
you will not accept.
So I want to know what you will accept.
"verified" by whom, if not news or "information available now???"
Hello?
As I suggested, you will ONLY accept a note from GOD.
You can't grasp this concept, can you?
As I just said, you will reject all evidence.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The insane twist the facts to fit their world view.
The rational twist their world view to fit the facts.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
In, fact, as I noted, you have already specifially
rejected all input from reality, news, and
"information available now."
How sad.
I'll bet you are really wishing this thread would go away.
It's making you see how silly and unreasonable you really are.
--
When one gains a political certainty akin to
a loyal sports fan, one has achieved the final
tranquility of servitude, a joyous slavery.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
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| User: "Doug Bashford" |
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| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
05 Jun 2007 10:11:54 AM |
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in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, David Hartung said about:
Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Doug Bashford wrote:
* Two inmates "Hung by their arms from the ceiling and
beaten so severely that, according to a report by
Army investigators, their legs would have needed to be
amputated had they lived."
Your own cites indicate that the behavior you describe above is not tolerated by
our military. To put it another way, when we find that our people are abusing or
torturing their prisoners, the responsible parties are punished. In other words,
abuse and torture is not a policy of our government.
Is that so?
February 14, 2005 Issue
Copyright © 2005 The American Conservative
The Truth About Torture
by William Pfaff
A historian in the future, or a moralist, is likely to deem the
Bush administration’s enthusiasm for torture the most striking
aspect of its war against terrorism.
This started early. Proposals to authorize torture were
circulating even before there was anyone to torture. Days after
the Sept. 11 attacks, the administration made it known that the
U.S. was no longer bound by international treaties or by American
law and established U.S. military standards concerning torture
and the treatment of prisoners. By the end of 2001, the Justice
Department had drafted memos on how to protect military and
intelligence officers from eventual prosecution under existing
U.S. law for their treatment of Afghan and other prisoners.
In January 2002, the White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales, who
is soon to become attorney general, advised George W. Bush that
it could be done by fiat. If the president simply declared
“detainees” in Afghanistan outside the protection of the Geneva
Conventions, the 1996 U.S. War Crimes Act—which carries a
possible death penalty for Geneva violations—would not apply.
..........snip
===========
Is that so?
More from The American Conservative:
The Truth About Torture
In March 2003, a Defense Department legal task force concluded
that the president was not bound by any international or federal
law on torture. ...
www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article1.html - 26k - ---------
Power of the Pen
Torture is apparently legal, despite a federal prohibition.
Domestic wiretapping is apparently legal, despite clear legal and
constitutional prohibitions. ...
www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_07_03/feature.html - 32k -
---------
Prisoners’ Dilemma
In the American legal tradition, and more broadly that of the
West in general .... The practice of torture is corrupting to us,
as well as damaging to those ...
www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_12_18/article1.html - 29k -
---------
Sins of Commission
For Bush, being tough on terror requires torture, secret prisons,
..... Steven Bradbury, head of the Justice Department’s Office of
Legal Counsel, ...
www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_12_18/article2.html - 32k -
---------
Hunger for Dictatorship
Pointing to the justification of torture by conservative legal
theorists, widespread support for a militaristic foreign policy,
and a retrospective backing ...
www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html - 33k - ---------
All the President’s Power
“The assertion in the various legal memoranda that the President
can order the torture of prisoners despite statutes and treaties
forbidding it was another ...
www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_01_30/cover.html - 47k -
---------
Will you ever come to the truthful side of
the argument David? Why wallow in lies and filth?
--Doug
--
When one gains a political certainty akin to
a loyal sports fan, one has achieved the final
tranquility of servitude, a joyous slavery.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
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| User: "Gr" |
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| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
05 Jun 2007 11:37:33 AM |
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"David Hartung" <dhart1ng@quixnet.net> wrote in message
news:n9SdnRQ34cOw8PjbnZ2dnUVZ_sKunZ2d@comcast.com...
Doug Bashford wrote:
in alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, In
<1180570481.771408.24980@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> The Professor said
about: Re: Torture in America
This Newsweek article is written in anti-Bush mode; it's not an
objective report. You buy into this crap because you've already
surrendered to the terrorists.
Heaven forbid we make a terrorist suspect pose naked before a woman or
go withouy sleep for three days! But, go ahead and
slaughter all the unborn children you want!
====================Please Consider this:
(Doug Bashford) wrote:
What would it take Jim, for you turn against them, to
conclude they were scumbags, or whatever?
How about If BushCo advocated that Americans can torture?
It all depends on your definition of torture. I have a real problem
with treating prisoners with kid gloves just so I won't offend *****
liberals. Leftwing whiners seem to think that sending them to bed
without supper is torture, talking too loudly at them is torture,
putting their religious literature on the TV is torture.
"treating prisoners with kid gloves??" "sending them to bed without
supper??"
Like this? * Urinating on detainees
* Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded
by gunfire) with such force that it could not
thereafter heal properly
* Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg
with collapsible metal baton
* A baton-wielding U.S. soldier forcing an Iraqi
prisoner, covered in feces, to try to walk in a
straight line while his ankles are bound.
* the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators
* Two inmates "Hung by their arms from the ceiling and beaten so
severely that, according to a report by Army investigators, their legs
would have needed to be amputated had they lived."
* made to crawl around the floor naked while U.S. soldiers rode them
like donkeys
* punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed
resuscitation.
* sodomized with lightsticks and brooms
* raped and sodomizeded female and child detainees
Your own cites indicate that the behavior you describe above is not
tolerated by our military. To put it another way, when we find that our
people are abusing or torturing their prisoners, the responsible parties
are punished. In other words, abuse and torture is not a policy of our
government.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Did you even read what you wrote? A bunch of scapegoats
paid for Gitmo while the highwer ups like Rummy and Cheney who ordered this
crap got nothing. You're a traitor.
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| User: "David Hartung" |
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| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
05 Jun 2007 02:40:11 PM |
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Gr wrote:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Did you even read what you wrote? A bunch of scapegoats
paid for Gitmo while the highwer ups like Rummy and Cheney who ordered this
crap got nothing. You're a traitor.
You have yet top prove your claim.
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| User: "Doug Bashford" |
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| Title: Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !??? |
07 Jun 2007 12:59:54 AM |
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David Hartung said about:
Re: ... You Call THAT Torture !???
Gr wrote:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Did you even read what you wrote? A bunch of scapegoats
paid for Gitmo while the highwer ups like Rummy and Cheney who ordered this
crap got nothing. You're a traitor.
You have yet top prove your claim.
You wield your shield with some effectivness.
However, it IS only a shield,
and,
your shield seems to be self-constructed ignorance.
You shrug off the mountain of evidence I present
with carefully constructed work games; "that
depends what the definition of is is."
Do you have any idea how silly you look?
Why do you encase yourself within a wall
of ignorance? (Like you cant google, to self-educate?)
Do you feel comfy there David?
--Doug
--
When one gains a political certainty akin to
a loyal sports fan, one has achieved the final
tranquility of servitude, a joyous slavery.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than
the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that ye were
our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
.
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