Attila wrote:-

With or without a Christian perspective, there is something
fundamentally (no pun intended) wrong with a society that permits
abortion on the scale that is done in the West.

Nonsense. It is a simple and safe medical procedure.

Safe to whom?

Especially given that
often an aborted foetus will often show signs of consciousness (such as
screaming when outside the body, let alone inside),

Nonsense. Most abortions are done long before there is much
development at all.

The brain and nervous system are functioning at about 8 weeks.

the key stage at which the child is defined as a foetus as opposed to
an 'embryo'. After this the foetus is able to feel pain.

"The structures needed to sense and feel pain are present and working
in the unborn child before 10 weeks gestation" - Foetal Sentience,
Peter McCullagh MD DPhil MRCP.

"Sensory and motor nerves start to work at eight weeks, when the
nervous system is already extensive. The movements of unborn children
at this stage are not all random but can be in response to stimuli.
Nerves, which carry sensation from the skin to the spinal cord, develop
by six or seven weeks" - Some observations on early human foetal
movements, J E Fitzgerald and W F Windle, Journal of Comparative
Neurology 1942 - 76, pages 159 to 167

According to the DoH's statistics for 2004, 60% of abortions take place
at 10 weeks or less. However, they fail to clarify figures before and
after the 8 week point.

"At 11 weeks the child moves around freely and is growing very fast.
The foetus is now bigger than the placenta, and the sac around the baby
fills with fluid to allow the growing baby to move around and exercise.
He or she can now respond to light, noise and pressure. He or she can
produce complex facial expressions and even smile..." (H B Valman and J
F Pearson, "What the foetus feels", British Medical Journal, 26 January
1980).

80% of neurologists who responded to a Daily Telegraph survey said that
unborn babies should be given pain relief during abortions from the
11th week of pregnancy - Daily Telegraph, 11 October 2000

28% of abortions are carried out at between 10 - 13 weeks gestation,
leaving 12% that are carried out at between 13 - 24 weeks
(unquantified).

"By 14 weeks, the entire sensory nervous system functions as a whole in
all parts of the body (except in the skin on the back of the head)" -
V. Collins, S. Zielinski and T. Marzen, "Fetal Pain and Abortion: the
Medical Evidence", Studies in Law and Medicine, No 18, 1984. V.
Collins is Professor of Anaesthesiology at the University of Illinois.

Babies born at 23 weeks have a 17 per cent chance of survival
Babies born at 24 weeks have a 39 per cent chance of survival
Babies born at 25 weeks have a 50 per cent chance of survival
Twenty years ago, approx 20% of babies weighing less than 1,000gms (2lb
2oz) at birth survived. Nowadays, about 80% survive. (www.bliss.org.uk)

and that with the
progress of science we are close to a time when it will be legal to
abort children at an age when they could be medically saved.

Irrelevant. Whether a fetus can or cannot be medically saved is not a
factor in allowing a woman to get an abortion if that is her choice.
Nor should it be.

If you can describe the capacity of an unborn child to survive outside
the womb, let alone feel pain, as irrelevant to whether his/her life
should be legally terminated, you are effectively a bigot on this issue
and your views are of limited value. I quote the above for the
consideration of those reading who havent closed their minds on this
issue.

I cant see
how any moral system can justify this.

Almost everybody who refers to "moral"
means "what I think that you should do".

Quite right. And people who shy away from the word know they hold views
that they cant actually justify.

Attila wrote:-

With or without a Christian perspective, there is something
fundamentally (no pun intended) wrong with a society that permits
abortion on the scale that is done in the West.

Nonsense. It is a simple and safe medical procedure.

Safe to whom?

Especially given that
often an aborted foetus will often show signs of consciousness (such as
screaming when outside the body, let alone inside),

Nonsense. Most abortions are done long before there is much
development at all.

The brain and nervous system are functioning at about 8 weeks. The is
the key stage at which the child is defined as a foetus as opposed to
an 'embryo'. After this the foetus is able to feel pain.

"The structures needed to sense and feel pain are present and working
in the unborn child before 10 weeks gestation" - Foetal Sentience,
Peter McCullagh MD DPhil MRCP.

"Sensory and motor nerves start to work at eight weeks, when the
nervous system is already extensive. The movements of unborn children
at this stage are not all random but can be in response to stimuli.
Nerves, which carry sensation from the skin to the spinal cord, develop
by six or seven weeks" - Some observations on early human foetal
movements, J E Fitzgerald and W F Windle, Journal of Comparative
Neurology 1942 - 76, pages 159 to 167

According to the DoH's statistics for 2004, 60% of abortions take place
at 10 weeks or less. However, they fail to clarify figures before and
after the 8 week point.

"At 11 weeks the child moves around freely and is growing very fast.
The foetus is now bigger than the placenta, and the sac around the baby
fills with fluid to allow the growing baby to move around and exercise.
He or she can now respond to light, noise and pressure. He or she can
produce complex facial expressions and even smile..." (H B Valman and J
F Pearson, "What the foetus feels", British Medical Journal, 26 January
1980).

80% of neurologists who responded to a Daily Telegraph survey said that
unborn babies should be given pain relief during abortions from the
11th week of pregnancy - Daily Telegraph, 11 October 2000

28% of abortions are carried out at between 10 - 13 weeks gestation,
leaving 12% that are carried out at between 13 - 24 weeks
(unquantified).

"By 14 weeks, the entire sensory nervous system functions as a whole in
all parts of the body (except in the skin on the back of the head)" -
V. Collins, S. Zielinski and T. Marzen, "Fetal Pain and Abortion: the
Medical Evidence", Studies in Law and Medicine, No 18, 1984. V.
Collins is Professor of Anaesthesiology at the University of Illinois.

Babies born at 23 weeks have a 17 per cent chance of survival
Babies born at 24 weeks have a 39 per cent chance of survival
Babies born at 25 weeks have a 50 per cent chance of survival
Twenty years ago, approx 20% of babies weighing less than 1,000gms (2lb
2oz) at birth survived. Nowadays, about 80% survive. (www.bliss.org.uk)

and that with the
progress of science we are close to a time when it will be legal to
abort children at an age when they could be medically saved.

Irrelevant. Whether a fetus can or cannot be medically saved is not a
factor in allowing a woman to get an abortion if that is her choice.
Nor should it be.

If you can describe the capacity of an unborn child to survive outside
the womb, let alone feel pain, as irrelevant to whether his/her life
should be legally terminated, you are effectively a bigot on this issue
and your views are of limited value. I quote the above for the
consideration of those reading who havent closed their minds on this
issue.

I cant see
how any moral system can justify this.

Almost everybody who refers to "moral"
means "what I think that you should do".

Quite right. And people who shy away from the word know they hold views
that they cant actually justify.