| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
07 May 2006 07:45:07 PM |
| Object: |
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
A strange series of events in a Florida abortion clinic has some of us
scratching our heads and wondering whether the culture of death will be
outwitted.
Consider the case of Angele, a single mother of three children, only two of
whom are alive. During her pregnancy with her third baby, Angele decided to
have an abortion. At the time, her baby was 23 weeks old. After this long in
the womb, many children born prematurely have an excellent chance of
surviving. Nonetheless, Angele decided she did not want this baby to live.
As news reports reveal, the clinic worker gave this young mother valium,
inserted laminaria in her cervix, sent her home and told her to come back
the next day for the actual surgical abortion. Laminaria is used to dilate
the cervix and valium is provided to lessen the pain of cramping the mother
may experience prior to her return for the abortion. When Angele returned
the following day, she went into premature labor.
As labor pains intensified, Angele reportedly screamed out for help, begging
someone to call 911. Sadly, no one came to her aid. Angele pushed and her
son was born, born alive in a sterile room. Then suddenly her agony was
magnified with horror when the very medical professionals who respected her
so-called right to choose abandoned her completely when she chose to save
her son.
For a few moments after the unexpected delivery of the little boy she named
Rowan, Angele comforted her son. But not long after his birth, the little
boy died.
Shortly thereafter, Angele engaged attorneys to file suit against the
abortion business. Somehow this mother now wants its personnel convicted
because they had not rushed to save the very same baby she had paid them to
terminate.
Suddenly this mother was a grief-stricken second victim of "safe and legal
abortion," realizing too late for her son that abortion is not the simple
answer everyone told her it would be. But then, it never is.
This story sounds too bizarre to be true, but get used to it. As a pro-life
veteran, it is my contention that we will see more and more reports like
this as mothers begin to deal with reality. After all, mothers who choose
abortion rarely perceive the child as a person. If they did, then abortion
would be out of the question. But they don't, so their pregnancy becomes a
problem that, for one reason or another, must be solved.
Angele thought that if the abortion was completed, one of her problems would
be over. She had not planned on meeting her problem face to face. She never
expected to witness the consequence of her "safe and legal choice" - an
innocent baby staring at his mother and reaching out to her in a
heartbreaking struggle for life.
Is there any other scenario in the world in which a doctor can be sued for
malpractice because the patient lived? Is there a more bizarre situation
than that of a mother who paid to have her child killed later arguing that
his ability to live a few moments is the result of negligence?
The attorneys are seeking disciplinary action against the abortionist, even
though his business almost always results in a dead child. That is what
abortion does, after all. The attorneys want the abortion clinic's license
to be revoked because the clinic did not provide emergency intervention for
the child who was born alive.
But wait a minute. An abortion clinic is a place where "good medical care"
is a contradiction. Their business is killing persons, not saving their
lives.
Abortionists are practitioners of an act that violates the very core of
medical ethics to "do no harm." They market harm, and profit from the deaths
of the youngest members of the human family.
We feel great sorrow for this mother who chose death for one of her
children. We realize she is suffering not only the enormous pain of post
abortion syndrome, but also the specific realization of just who her choice
eliminated.
It is troubling to have to talk about a story like this, but perhaps
something good will come from it. If he had died unseen, this little boy
could have gone the way of the thousands of others who are aborted every
day. If Angele's abortion had gone as planned, nobody would be talking about
malpractice or license suspensions. Indeed the purveyors would have been
paid, Angele would have gone home childless, and life would have gone on -
for everyone except Rowan. At the very least, Rowan's short life was
remarkable because it allowed his mother a change of heart.
To my mind it is unthinkable that the solution to all this would be to
merely regulate a place where ending the lives of the innocent is the trade
that is plied minute by minute, day by day. Every abortion claims an
innocent human life. That isn't always presented in such stark fashion as it
was in Rowan's case. But it's always the truth. When will this madness stop?
Judie Brown is president and co-founder of American Life League, the
nation's largest Catholic pro-life educational grassroots organization. She
is a recognized expert on the sanctity of human life and member of the
Pontifical Academy for Life. Mrs. Brown is the author of three books.
--
----------
J Young
youngopinions@aol.com
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
07 May 2006 09:12:58 PM |
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<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough justification
for enslavement and suffering.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
08 May 2006 04:46:51 PM |
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"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough justification
for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if they did
not have sex, to have sex?
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| User: "BOB" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
08 May 2006 04:55:19 PM |
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1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough justification
for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if they
did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
08 May 2006 07:35:02 PM |
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"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough justification
for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if they
did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is. What the heck do you think this entire abortion debate is
all about. It is all about one side saying that women should have the right
to choose, and the other side saying they should not. And the issue is not
being fought only by women but by men also.
.
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| User: "BOB" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
08 May 2006 07:56:02 PM |
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"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:WsR7g.9218$Nk3.7111@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message
news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough
justification for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if
they did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is.
....not.
What the heck do you think this entire abortion
debate is all about.
A woman's right to choose.
It is all about one side saying that women
should have the right to choose,
That would be the right side.
and the other side saying they should
not.
And that would be the wrong side.
And the issue is not being fought only by women but by men also.
No fight. Choice is the law of the land.
The important point to note here is that abortion-choice is no one else's
business but the pregnant woman involved. Not yours, not mine but only
the affected woman.
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
09 May 2006 04:19:12 PM |
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"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message news:Xns97BDB66F7412ESD@70.169.32.36...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:WsR7g.9218$Nk3.7111@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message
news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough
justification for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if
they did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is.
...not.
Look, if it was none of anyones business, then the government would not have
interfered with our personal choices, one way or the other.
What the heck do you think this entire abortion
debate is all about.
A woman's right to choose.
Good. So, if a woman should have the right to choose to have an abortion,
then couldn't I argue that any person should have the right to choose to do
anything that does not affect anyone else. At least in this case, no one is
affected, whereas when a woman makes the choice of having an abortion they
have prevented a human being from entering this world. Besides, think of
this for a change (and before you accuse me of being one of those
anti-abortion people, I am not). What happesn when a woman "chooses" to
have an abortion? What happens is we will never know if that "thing" would
have been another Einstein or another Hitler. If we prevented another
Einstein from entering this earth, is the world better off because we did?
Think also of this. How do you know that a woman is in the first trimester
of her pregnancy? How do you know, that she is not in fact in her second
trimester of pregnancy? They cross that imaginary line, and on one side it
is perfectly legal to have an abortion, and on the other side, it is not.
Then of course, we can talk about the third trimester of pregnancy, where is
it an absolute no no to have an abortion. The rationale given is that the
odds are the fetus can survive. But what happens if medical science is able
to take a two month fetus and have that survive?
It is all about one side saying that women
should have the right to choose,
That would be the right side.
Why?
and the other side saying they should
not.
And that would be the wrong side.
Why?
And the issue is not being fought only by women but by men also.
No fight. Choice is the law of the land.
It is for now. Laws can and do change.
The important point to note here is that abortion-choice is no one else's
business but the pregnant woman involved. Not yours, not mine but only
the affected woman.
Then why did the government get involved?
.
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| User: "Emmanual Kann" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
09 May 2006 08:11:35 PM |
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An Tue, 09 May 2006 21:19:12 +0000, Jerry Okamura hat geschreibt:
Then why did the government get involved?
I don't know. Why did the government make sex toys illegal in Alabama?
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 04:06:48 PM |
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"Emmanual Kann" <kann@keinspam.de> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.05.10.01.11.32.659604@keinspam.de...
An Tue, 09 May 2006 21:19:12 +0000, Jerry Okamura hat geschreibt:
Then why did the government get involved?
I don't know. Why did the government make sex toys illegal in Alabama?
Because the can....
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 04:13:48 PM |
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"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:IBs8g.95$uM4.72@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Emmanual Kann" <kann@keinspam.de> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.05.10.01.11.32.659604@keinspam.de...
An Tue, 09 May 2006 21:19:12 +0000, Jerry Okamura hat geschreibt:
Then why did the government get involved?
I don't know. Why did the government make sex toys illegal in Alabama?
Because the can....
Kick the can?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 09:13:44 PM |
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In alt.atheism On Wed, 10 May 2006 21:06:48 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> let us all know that:
"Emmanual Kann" <kann@keinspam.de> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.05.10.01.11.32.659604@keinspam.de...
An Tue, 09 May 2006 21:19:12 +0000, Jerry Okamura hat geschreibt:
Then why did the government get involved?
I don't know. Why did the government make sex toys illegal in Alabama?
Because the can....
Please tell me you're not into legal positivism.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
09 May 2006 08:56:13 PM |
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In alt.atheism On Tue, 09 May 2006 21:19:12 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> let us all know that:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message news:Xns97BDB66F7412ESD@70.169.32.36...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:WsR7g.9218$Nk3.7111@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message
news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough
justification for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if
they did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is.
...not.
Look, if it was none of anyones business, then the government would not have
interfered with our personal choices, one way or the other.
Blatant non sequitur. The government interferes in a WHOLE
SHITLOAD of decisions that are no one's business but the two parties.
Minimum wage laws. Building material codes. Stock transactions.
What the heck do you think this entire abortion
debate is all about.
A woman's right to choose.
Good. So, if a woman should have the right to choose to have an abortion,
then couldn't I argue that any person should have the right to choose to do
anything that does not affect anyone else.
No. A lot of things you do affect other people. Dying affects
other people--would you outlaw death?
At least in this case, no one is
affected, whereas when a woman makes the choice of having an abortion they
have prevented a human being from entering this world. Besides, think of
this for a change (and before you accuse me of being one of those
anti-abortion people, I am not). What happesn when a woman "chooses" to
have an abortion?
She exercises her right of self-ownership, just as you are
doing when you're trying your messages.
Or don't you think women deserve to own themselves?
What happens is we will never know if that "thing" would
have been another Einstein or another Hitler.
Irrelevent emotive *****.
It is all about one side saying that women
should have the right to choose,
That would be the right side.
Why?
Two words: Self. Ownership.
and the other side saying they should
not.
And that would be the wrong side.
Why?
One word: Slavery.
And the issue is not being fought only by women but by men also.
No fight. Choice is the law of the land.
It is for now. Laws can and do change.
Yeah. Used to be the law that blacks and whites couldn't
marry. Used to be the law that alcohol was outlawed.
The important point to note here is that abortion-choice is no one else's
business but the pregnant woman involved. Not yours, not mine but only
the affected woman.
Then why did the government get involved?
Because that's what governments do! Read _Crisis and
Leviathan_ by Robert Higgs for a good start.
http://www.mises.org/store/Crisis-and-Leviathan-P138C0.aspx
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Azrael" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 12:58:48 AM |
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On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 21:19:12 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
<snipped for condensation>
No fight. Choice is the law of the land.
It is for now. Laws can and do change.
The important point to note here is that abortion-choice is no one else's
business but the pregnant woman involved. Not yours, not mine but only
the affected woman.
Then why did the government get involved?
Because primarily religious orientated people wanted the government
to, because it is against what they believe.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 04:22:40 PM |
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"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:700362ds8ddpmru2o85kjin8gle7r8tesf@4ax.com...
On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 21:19:12 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
<snipped for condensation>
No fight. Choice is the law of the land.
It is for now. Laws can and do change.
The important point to note here is that abortion-choice is no one
else's
business but the pregnant woman involved. Not yours, not mine but only
the affected woman.
Then why did the government get involved?
Because primarily religious orientated people wanted the government
to, because it is against what they believe.
Religious people were in favor of abortion?
.
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| User: "BOB" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 04:35:22 PM |
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"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:AQs8g.50$G95.45@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:700362ds8ddpmru2o85kjin8gle7r8tesf@4ax.com...
On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 21:19:12 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
<snipped for condensation>
No fight. Choice is the law of the land.
It is for now. Laws can and do change.
The important point to note here is that abortion-choice is no one
else's
business but the pregnant woman involved. Not yours, not mine but
only the affected woman.
Then why did the government get involved?
Because primarily religious orientated people wanted the government
to, because it is against what they believe.
Religious people were in favor of abortion?
The basic proposition of your question is false and misleading. Most
people, including many pro-choice advocates, are not "in favor of
abortion". The appropriate term should be "abortion-choice", rather than
"abortion".
But if, as you religious kooks claim, the majority of people in the U.S.
are religious and if, as most accepted polls report, the majority of people
in the U.S. are pro-choice, then it stands to reason that religious people
favor abortion-choice.
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 08:23:00 PM |
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"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message news:Xns97BF946B73BE9SD@70.169.32.36...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:AQs8g.50$G95.45@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:700362ds8ddpmru2o85kjin8gle7r8tesf@4ax.com...
On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 21:19:12 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
<snipped for condensation>
No fight. Choice is the law of the land.
It is for now. Laws can and do change.
The important point to note here is that abortion-choice is no one
else's
business but the pregnant woman involved. Not yours, not mine but
only the affected woman.
Then why did the government get involved?
Because primarily religious orientated people wanted the government
to, because it is against what they believe.
Religious people were in favor of abortion?
The basic proposition of your question is false and misleading. Most
people, including many pro-choice advocates, are not "in favor of
abortion". The appropriate term should be "abortion-choice", rather than
"abortion".
Okay, so I will rephrase the question. Most religious people were in favor
of "abortion choice"?
But if, as you religious kooks claim, the majority of people in the U.S.
are religious and if, as most accepted polls report, the majority of
people
in the U.S. are pro-choice, then it stands to reason that religious
people
favor abortion-choice.
I am not particularly religious. Gave up on that when I was a teenager. Got
tired of the pastor (or whoever that guy was) telling me what a bad boy I
was for doing the things I was doing. As for what the majority feel or do
not feel, they have a right to what they believe. That does not mean that
they are right or that they are wrong, or that they have given the whole
idea enough thought, or that they have evaluated all of the pros and cons of
the argument. Also, I am not anti abortion, nor am I completely for
abortion. I would never tell my daughters they should not get an abortion,
if that is what they wanted to do. On the other hand, I think I can make a
pretty good argument for when abortions should be mandatory and not
voluntary. I try my best to look at these hot button issues as rationally
as I can, trying to understand the positions held by both sides.
.
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| User: "Emmanual Kann" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
11 May 2006 07:25:39 AM |
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An Thu, 11 May 2006 01:23:00 +0000, Jerry Okamura hat geschreibt:
Okay, so I will rephrase the question. Most religious people were in favor
of "abortion choice"?
Most religious people think there is no valid justification for slavery.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
11 May 2006 10:33:27 AM |
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Emmanual Kann <nicht@keinspam.de> wrote:
An Thu, 11 May 2006 01:23:00 +0000, Jerry Okamura hat geschreibt:
Okay, so I will rephrase the question. Most religious people were in favor
of "abortion choice"?
Most religious people think there is no valid justification for slavery.
Unless the slave is pregnant.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Emmanual Kann" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
11 May 2006 01:12:56 PM |
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An Thu, 11 May 2006 15:33:27 +0000, Ray Fischer hat geschreibt:
Emmanual Kann <nicht@keinspam.de> wrote:
An Thu, 11 May 2006 01:23:00 +0000, Jerry Okamura hat geschreibt:
Okay, so I will rephrase the question. Most religious people were in favor
of "abortion choice"?
Most religious people think there is no valid justification for slavery.
Unless the slave is pregnant.
No! I stand by the statement that most religious people think there is no
valid justification for any form of slavery.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
11 May 2006 10:28:53 PM |
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Emmanual Kann <nicht@keinspam.de> wrote:
An Thu, 11 May 2006 15:33:27 +0000, Ray Fischer hat geschreibt:
Emmanual Kann <nicht@keinspam.de> wrote:
An Thu, 11 May 2006 01:23:00 +0000, Jerry Okamura hat geschreibt:
Okay, so I will rephrase the question. Most religious people were in favor
of "abortion choice"?
Most religious people think there is no valid justification for slavery.
Unless the slave is pregnant.
No! I stand by the statement that most religious people think there is no
valid justification for any form of slavery.
Maybe in Germany, but in the US it is the case where many of the most
religious people firmly believe that pregnant women should be enslaved
to the needs of fetuses.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Emmanual Kann" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
12 May 2006 02:00:06 AM |
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An Fri, 12 May 2006 03:28:53 +0000, Ray Fischer hat geschreibt:
Emmanual Kann <nicht@keinspam.de> wrote:
An Thu, 11 May 2006 15:33:27 +0000, Ray Fischer hat geschreibt:
Emmanual Kann <nicht@keinspam.de> wrote:
An Thu, 11 May 2006 01:23:00 +0000, Jerry Okamura hat geschreibt:
Okay, so I will rephrase the question. Most religious people were in favor
of "abortion choice"?
Most religious people think there is no valid justification for slavery.
Unless the slave is pregnant.
No! I stand by the statement that most religious people think there is no
valid justification for any form of slavery.
Maybe in Germany, but in the US it is the case where many of the most
religious people firmly believe that pregnant women should be enslaved
to the needs of fetuses.
Many of the most religious people. What proportion of religious people is
most? What proportion of the most religious are the many that think women
should be slaves. I can tell you that the number who think abortion is a
bad thing, is a lot larger than the number who think women should be
slaves. There are more effective ways to reduce the number of abortions
than to enslave pregnant women.
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| User: "Azrael" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
09 May 2006 01:45:25 AM |
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On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 00:35:02 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough justification
for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if they
did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is. What the heck do you think this entire abortion debate is
all about. It is all about one side saying that women should have the right
to choose, and the other side saying they should not. And the issue is not
being fought only by women but by men also.
Why do you think it's your business what I do in my private life? My
sexual decisions effect you in not one way. If I have an abortion you
are effected how?
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
09 May 2006 04:21:23 PM |
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"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:sce062htk4b9gapvv1193e56lur0gbht9c@4ax.com...
On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 00:35:02 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough justification
for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if they
did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is. What the heck do you think this entire abortion debate
is
all about. It is all about one side saying that women should have the
right
to choose, and the other side saying they should not. And the issue is
not
being fought only by women but by men also.
Why do you think it's your business what I do in my private life? My
sexual decisions effect you in not one way. If I have an abortion you
are effected how?
It is not my business what you do with your private life. It is my business
when as a result of the actions you take, you affect my life. I am affected
if you have an abortion, if you prevented another Einstein from entering
this earth.
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| User: "The Chief Instigator" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
09 May 2006 05:16:17 PM |
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"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> writes:
"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:sce062htk4b9gapvv1193e56lur0gbht9c@4ax.com...
On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 00:35:02 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough justification
for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if they
did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is. What the heck do you think this entire abortion debate is
all about. It is all about one side saying that women should have the
right to choose, and the other side saying they should not. And the issue
is not being fought only by women but by men also.
Why do you think it's your business what I do in my private life? My
sexual decisions effect you in not one way. If I have an abortion you
are effected how?
It is not my business what you do with your private life. It is my business
when as a result of the actions you take, you affect my life. I am affected
if you have an abortion, if you prevented another Einstein from entering
this earth.
You don't know that, so worry about your real life, not what could happen.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2005-06 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Milwaukee 7, Houston 4 (May 7)
NEXT GAME: Tuesday, May 9 vs. Milwaukee, 7:35 (Game 4)
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| User: "Andrealphus" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
09 May 2006 05:17:55 PM |
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In News szkr732g7ym.fsf@fnord.io.com,, The Chief Instigator at
patrick@io.com, typed this:
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> writes:
"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:sce062htk4b9gapvv1193e56lur0gbht9c@4ax.com...
On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 00:35:02 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message
news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough
justification for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant
if they did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex
and reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is. What the heck do you think this entire abortion
debate is all about. It is all about one side saying that women
should have the right to choose, and the other side saying they
should not. And the issue is not being fought only by women but
by men also.
Why do you think it's your business what I do in my private life? My
sexual decisions effect you in not one way. If I have an abortion
you are effected how?
It is not my business what you do with your private life. It is my
business when as a result of the actions you take, you affect my
life. I am affected if you have an abortion, if you prevented
another Einstein from entering this earth.
You don't know that, so worry about your real life, not what could
happen.
Doesn't he realize that an abortion may have also prevented another Hitler,
or Atilla from entering the Earth? Either way, it's not his choice to
make.
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
09 May 2006 04:27:50 PM |
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"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
snip
It is not my business what you do with your private life. It is my
business when as a result of the actions you take, you affect my life. I
am affected if you have an abortion, if you prevented another Einstein
from entering this earth.
What about another Jeffrey Dahmer? BTW, how would even know who/when/why
had an abortion and what would have been if there had been no abortion?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
09 May 2006 08:56:43 PM |
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In alt.atheism On Tue, 09 May 2006 21:21:23 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> let us all know that:
"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:sce062htk4b9gapvv1193e56lur0gbht9c@4ax.com...
On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 00:35:02 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough justification
for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if they
did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is. What the heck do you think this entire abortion debate
is
all about. It is all about one side saying that women should have the
right
to choose, and the other side saying they should not. And the issue is
not
being fought only by women but by men also.
Why do you think it's your business what I do in my private life? My
sexual decisions effect you in not one way. If I have an abortion you
are effected how?
It is not my business what you do with your private life. It is my business
when as a result of the actions you take, you affect my life. I am affected
if you have an abortion,
No, you are not. Period.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 04:14:22 PM |
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"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:d2i26255fk89e7i8kkcodbmgf0411oin5d@4ax.com...
In alt.atheism On Tue, 09 May 2006 21:21:23 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> let us all know that:
"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:sce062htk4b9gapvv1193e56lur0gbht9c@4ax.com...
On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 00:35:02 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message
news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough
justification
for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if
they
did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is. What the heck do you think this entire abortion debate
is
all about. It is all about one side saying that women should have the
right
to choose, and the other side saying they should not. And the issue is
not
being fought only by women but by men also.
Why do you think it's your business what I do in my private life? My
sexual decisions effect you in not one way. If I have an abortion you
are effected how?
It is not my business what you do with your private life. It is my
business
when as a result of the actions you take, you affect my life. I am
affected
if you have an abortion,
No, you are not. Period.
Of course I am. Here are some examples. When a person aborts a birth, that
means we will never know if that aborted life, would not have been another
great contributor to our society (of course we will never know if tha perdon
would be another Hitler either, or some mass murdered). We will never know
if that aborted birth, would not have given us another Einstein, or someone
who would have made a really great contribution to making our life a little
better. Would we in America have been better of if the mother of Roosevelt
had aborted his birth? Would the world have been better off if the mother
of Einstein have aborted his birth? Would we be better off, if the mother
of Martin Luther King have aborted his birth?
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 09:14:47 PM |
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In alt.atheism On Wed, 10 May 2006 21:14:22 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> let us all know that:
"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:d2i26255fk89e7i8kkcodbmgf0411oin5d@4ax.com...
In alt.atheism On Tue, 09 May 2006 21:21:23 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> let us all know that:
"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:sce062htk4b9gapvv1193e56lur0gbht9c@4ax.com...
On this day Tue, 09 May 2006 00:35:02 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"BOB" <sd@sd.net> wrote in message
news:Xns97BD97CA19C70SD@70.169.32.36...
1"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in
news:f%O7g.6595$yM.2841@tornado.socal.rr.com:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:445ea92a$0$65470$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10817.shtml
A Mother's Tale: Abortion, Face to Face
Commentary by Judie Brown
Ah, a pro-lie fairy tale. As if fairy tales are enough
justification
for enslavement and suffering.
"Enslavement"? Who "forced" women, who would not get pregnant if
they
did not have sex, to have sex?
You must have overlooked the simple fact that other people's sex and
reproductive lives and decisions are none of your business.
Of course it is. What the heck do you think this entire abortion debate
is
all about. It is all about one side saying that women should have the
right
to choose, and the other side saying they should not. And the issue is
not
being fought only by women but by men also.
Why do you think it's your business what I do in my private life? My
sexual decisions effect you in not one way. If I have an abortion you
are effected how?
It is not my business what you do with your private life. It is my
business when as a result of the actions you take, you affect my life. I am
affected if you have an abortion,
No, you are not. Period.
Of course I am.
Of course you are not. Your "example" means nothing.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 12:58:05 AM |
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Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
Why do you think it's your business what I do in my private life? My
sexual decisions effect you in not one way. If I have an abortion you
are effected how?
It is not my business what you do with your private life. It is my business
when as a result of the actions you take, you affect my life. I am affected
if you have an abortion, if you prevented another Einstein from entering
this earth.
I am affected by how you spend your money. If you spend it selfishly
without regard for other people then I am adversely affected. Thus,
according to your reasoning, I have the right to tell you how you may
spend your money.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: A Mother's Fairy Tale: Abortion, Face to Face |
10 May 2006 04:21:59 PM |
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"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:446180ed$0$65462$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
Why do you think it's your business what I do in my private life? My
sexual decisions effect you in not one way. If I have an abortion you
are effected how?
It is not my business what you do with your private life. It is my
business
when as a result of the actions you take, you affect my life. I am
affected
if you have an abortion, if you prevented another Einstein from entering
this earth.
I am affected by how you spend your money. If you spend it selfishly
without regard for other people then I am adversely affected. Thus,
according to your reasoning, I have the right to tell you how you may
spend your money.
You are "affected" but that "affect" can be either positive or negative.
And no, even when I spend my money selfishly, someone benefits from that
spending. So, while you may be adversely affected, i.e. it may not have
benefitted you directly, someone else benefitted, and you probably
benefitted indirectly, since that someone else also spent the money they
made from that spending.. And you do tell me how to spend my money, if you
believe in taxes, because that affects the amount of money I have to spend.
In that case, you actually "force" me to spend my money on things, I might
not otherwise spend it on.
.
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