| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"Iain" |
| Date: |
29 Sep 2004 06:41:47 AM |
| Object: |
Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
Point 2.
I can end the life of a brainless daffodill(and an embryo), but this is a
different meaning of "life".
Point 3.
To address the arguments of "potential": One cannot be accused of robbing a
bank if the safe would potentially otherwise be full in the future.
~Iain
.
|
|
| User: "Resasoned Insanity" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 09:10:35 AM |
|
|
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cje71q$df2$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come to the
point of having no decernable
brain activity and then recovers, did they cease to be alive and the become
alive again?
Point 2.
I can end the life of a brainless daffodill(and an embryo), but this is a
different meaning of "life"
Prove to me that you are alive.
Point 3.
To address the arguments of "potential": One cannot be accused of robbing
a
bank if the safe would potentially otherwise be full in the future.
Try going into a bank that you know has no money and robbing it. You are
going to be arrested whether you are able to get anything or not.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iain" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
30 Sep 2004 04:42:33 AM |
|
|
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<SEz6d.3629$ek.195@okepread03>...
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cje71q$df2$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come to the
point of having no decernable
brain activity and then recovers, did they cease to be alive and the become
alive again?
This is an old one. Everything you've said thus far could be said
about a haddock.
Death is the complete end to brain activity. The case you describe is
a prolonged delay in the function of the brain. There is still
continuity of memory.
When mortality in concerned, the brain becomes irrepairably damaged
before it can recommence thought(damaged by festering for example).
If you're asking what should be done with someone who has suffered
brain trauma, I say that is the domain of the experts.
Point 2.
I can end the life of a brainless daffodill(and an embryo), but this is a
different meaning of "life"
Prove to me that you are alive.
Want you me to prove I am alive in the broadest dense? Okay, I can
show you a heartbeat, body heat, functioning metabolism. It's fairly
easy.
If you mean in the slayable sense, then: I pass the Turing test for a
start. I've shown I can remember what we're discussing, etc.
If I'm just a computer simulation, there is a $100 000 prize available
for the author in London in September 2005.
Point 3.
To address the arguments of "potential": One cannot be accused of robbing
a
bank if the safe would potentially otherwise be full in the future.
Try going into a bank that you know has no money and robbing it. You are
going to be arrested whether you are able to get anything or not.
The point of MY example is that you cannot do a specific thing to what
isn't there, even if you try(and get arrested for trying). You
describe an attempted robbery. Aborters mustn't even be done for
attempted murder(or animal cruelty), unless someone can illustrate
that abortion is slayment.
Your example would only be relevant if abortion surgeons knowingly TRY
to slay instead of kill. Doctors kill all the time. They try to kill
cancerous cells, bacteria, and other sacks of mucus like early
embryos.
Your example is a distraction.
Ultimately, you're defending the indefensible: what has a fetus that a
fish hasn't that gives it moral imunity to slayment? And don't say "a
different potential future" because you can't commit murder upon a
person who "would otherwise exist", EVEN if the chances of future
brain activity increase because of successful conception.
~Iain
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 10:26:28 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:10:35 -0500,
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come
to the point of having no decernable brain activity and then recovers,
did they cease to be alive and the become alive again?
Fallacious scenario. Never happens.
Fully-flat-line EEG = *dead*. As a doornail. No recovery
possible.
But that's apples and oranges to this issue in any case (note the
word, "before," in that sentence you responded to), since abortion
deals merely with reproductive=process entities, and not people
(except for the woman receiving that remedy). PERSONHOOD
begins at BIRTH. After that, and **only** after that, is a human
entity accorded the rights that go along with personhood. Up until
then, the entity is merely a *potential* person. And that applies to
ALL 4 stages of the reproductive process -- gametes, zygotes,
embryoes and fetuses -- ALL of which are human (but not "human
beings"), unique, and alive.
<remaining silliness flushed>
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com>
(REAL name and e-mail address, lest any bigot wrongly
think I'm hiding behind an a alias. The "alias," above,
is designed to be a visible MESSAGE, each time I post.)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Every time a person supports bigotry in public, and presents NO
relevant FACTS to back his/her stance in behalf of a loathsome
agenda against individual liberties and human rights, that person
has -- ironically -- further **damaged** the cause he/she supports.
And every time a fair-minded and sensible egalitarian opposes
such a bigot, publicly, and **presents** relevant FACTS that are
damaging to the bigot's agenda, that TOO is an additional nail in
the coffin lid of the agenda, and a push of that casket CLOSER
to the Drain of Extinction -- its well-deserved ultimate destination.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
INSIGHT on our Warmonger-in-Thief ---
http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html
AND...
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ALSO worth a look:
http://anon.newmediamill.speedera.net/anon.newmediamill/pledge_acc/index.html
And... here's what happens to people like you & me:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/21/antiwar.soldier.ap/index.html
However, the same rules don't apply to the "Elite:"
www.awolbush.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.
|
|
|
| User: "Resasoned Insanity" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 12:19:09 PM |
|
|
"GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!"
<xanadu222@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:415ad191.1522788@netnews.mchsi.com...
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:10:35 -0500,
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come
to the point of having no decernable brain activity and then recovers,
did they cease to be alive and the become alive again?
Fallacious scenario. Never happens.
Fully-flat-line EEG = *dead*. As a doornail. No recovery
possible.
But that's apples and oranges to this issue in any case (note the
word, "before," in that sentence you responded to), since abortion
deals merely with reproductive=process entities, and not people
(except for the woman receiving that remedy). PERSONHOOD
begins at BIRTH. After that, and **only** after that, is a human
entity accorded the rights that go along with personhood. Up until
then, the entity is merely a *potential* person. And that applies to
ALL 4 stages of the reproductive process -- gametes, zygotes,
embryoes and fetuses -- ALL of which are human (but not "human
beings"), unique, and alive.
<remaining silliness flushed>
It is interesting that you should call the unborn entities Craig. The
dictionary defines that as "The fact of existence; being". And don't even go
with your potential people *****. Have the balls to say whethere
something is one thing or not. Prove to me you are a person.
.
|
|
|
| User: "GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 12:38:14 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:19:09 -0500,
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> ("GOOD RIDDANCE on
Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!") wrote:
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come
to the point of having no decernable brain activity and then recovers,
did they cease to be alive and the become alive again?
Fallacious scenario. Never happens.
Fully-flat-line EEG = *dead*. As a doornail. No recovery
possible.
But that's apples and oranges to this issue in any case (note the
word, "before," in that sentence you responded to), since abortion
deals merely with reproductive=process entities, and not people
(except for the woman receiving that remedy). PERSONHOOD
begins at BIRTH. After that, and **only** after that, is a human
entity accorded the rights that go along with personhood. Up until
then, the entity is merely a *potential* person. And that applies to
ALL 4 stages of the reproductive process -- gametes, zygotes,
embryoes and fetuses -- ALL of which are human (but not "human
beings"), unique, and alive.
<remaining silliness flushed>
It is interesting that you should call the unborn entities Craig.
The dictionary defines that as "The fact of existence; being".
A **brick** exists, and therefore IS in a state of *being*. And
it deserves EXACTLY the **same** rights that mere reproductive-
process entities do.
And don't even go with your potential people *****.
That's ALL that reproductive-ptocess entities are: POTENTIAL
people. You don't like that, TOUGH. (We all know that relevant
FACTS are totally meaningless to ignorant bigots.)
<remaining trollish stupidity flushed>
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com>
(REAL name and e-mail address, lest any bigot wrongly
think I'm hiding behind an a alias. The "alias," above,
is designed to be a visible MESSAGE, each time I post.)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Every time a person supports bigotry in public, and presents NO
relevant FACTS to back his/her stance in behalf of a loathsome
agenda against individual liberties and human rights, that person
has -- ironically -- further **damaged** the cause he/she supports.
And every time a fair-minded and sensible egalitarian opposes
such a bigot, publicly, and **presents** relevant FACTS that are
damaging to the bigot's agenda, that TOO is an additional nail in
the coffin lid of the agenda, and a push of that casket CLOSER
to the Drain of Extinction -- its well-deserved ultimate destination.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
INSIGHT on our Warmonger-in-Thief ---
http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html
AND...
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ALSO worth a look:
http://anon.newmediamill.speedera.net/anon.newmediamill/pledge_acc/index.html
And... here's what happens to people like you & me:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/21/antiwar.soldier.ap/index.html
However, the same rules don't apply to the "Elite:"
www.awolbush.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Johnny" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 12:47:45 PM |
|
|
"GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!"
<xanadu222@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:415ad191.1522788@netnews.mchsi.com...
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:10:35 -0500,
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come
to the point of having no decernable brain activity and then recovers,
did they cease to be alive and the become alive again?
Fallacious scenario. Never happens.
Fully-flat-line EEG = *dead*. As a doornail. No recovery
possible.
You got the Neurology handbook on that?
But that's apples and oranges to this issue in any case (note the
word, "before," in that sentence you responded to), since abortion
deals merely with reproductive=process entities, and not people
(except for the woman receiving that remedy). PERSONHOOD
begins at BIRTH.
LOL!!!!!!!!!
Would that be after the 24 week limit on abortion?
What is it from week 25-birth?
After that, and **only** after that, is a human
entity accorded the rights that go along with personhood. Up until
then, the entity is merely a *potential* person. And that applies to
ALL 4 stages of the reproductive process -- gametes, zygotes,
embryoes and fetuses -- ALL of which are human (but not "human
beings")
They are not human?
They do not exist?
, unique, and alive.
<remaining silliness flushed>
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com>
(REAL name and e-mail address, lest any bigot wrongly
think I'm hiding behind an a alias. The "alias," above,
is designed to be a visible MESSAGE, each time I post.)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Every time a person supports bigotry in public, and presents NO
relevant FACTS to back his/her stance in behalf of a loathsome
agenda against individual liberties and human rights, that person
has -- ironically -- further **damaged** the cause he/she supports.
And every time a fair-minded and sensible egalitarian opposes
such a bigot, publicly, and **presents** relevant FACTS that are
damaging to the bigot's agenda, that TOO is an additional nail in
the coffin lid of the agenda, and a push of that casket CLOSER
to the Drain of Extinction -- its well-deserved ultimate destination.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
INSIGHT on our Warmonger-in-Thief ---
http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html
AND...
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ALSO worth a look:
http://anon.newmediamill.speedera.net/anon.newmediamill/pledge_acc/index.html
And... here's what happens to people like you & me:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/21/antiwar.soldier.ap/index.html
However, the same rules don't apply to the "Elite:"
www.awolbush.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.
|
|
|
| User: "GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 12:44:59 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:47:45 -0500,
Hateful Bigot, John Wentzky <wxpprofessional@msn.com> spewed:
Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> ("GOOD RIDDANCE on
Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!") wrote:
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come
to the point of having no decernable brain activity and then recovers,
did they cease to be alive and the become alive again?
Fallacious scenario. Never happens.
Fully-flat-line EEG = *dead*. As a doornail. No recovery
possible.
But that's apples and oranges to this issue in any case (note the
word, "before," in that sentence you responded to), since abortion
deals merely with reproductive=process entities, and not people
(except for the woman receiving that remedy). PERSONHOOD
begins at BIRTH.
LOL!!!!!!!!!
Would that be after the 24 week limit on abortion?
What is it from week 25-birth?
WHAT "limit?" Go to: www.drtiller.com . An example of a
clinic capable of legally performing abortions at ANY point during
a pregnancy.
After that, and **only** after that, is a human entity
accorded the rights that go along with personhood. Up until
then, the entity is merely a *potential* person. And that applies to
ALL 4 stages of the reproductive process -- gametes, zygotes,
embryoes and fetuses -- ALL of which are human (but not "human
beings"), unique, and alive.
They are not human?
All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human." But all
"human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com>
(REAL name and e-mail address, lest any bigot wrongly
think I'm hiding behind an a alias. The "alias," above,
is designed to be a visible MESSAGE, each time I post.)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Every time a person supports bigotry in public, and presents NO
relevant FACTS to back his/her stance in behalf of a loathsome
agenda against individual liberties and human rights, that person
has -- ironically -- further **damaged** the cause he/she supports.
And every time a fair-minded and sensible egalitarian opposes
such a bigot, publicly, and **presents** relevant FACTS that are
damaging to the bigot's agenda, that TOO is an additional nail in
the coffin lid of the agenda, and a push of that casket CLOSER
to the Drain of Extinction -- its well-deserved ultimate destination.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
INSIGHT on our Warmonger-in-Thief ---
http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html
AND...
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ALSO worth a look:
http://anon.newmediamill.speedera.net/anon.newmediamill/pledge_acc/index.html
And... here's what happens to people like you & me:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/21/antiwar.soldier.ap/index.html
However, the same rules don't apply to the "Elite:"
www.awolbush.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iain" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
30 Sep 2004 04:45:37 AM |
|
|
(GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!) wrote in message news:<4163f2e1.10051248@netnews.mchsi.com>...
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:47:45 -0500,
Hateful Bigot, John Wentzky <wxpprofessional@msn.com> spewed:
Craig Chilton < > ("GOOD RIDDANCE on
Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!") wrote:
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come
to the point of having no decernable brain activity and then recovers,
did they cease to be alive and the become alive again?
Fallacious scenario. Never happens.
Fully-flat-line EEG = *dead*. As a doornail. No recovery
possible.
But that's apples and oranges to this issue in any case (note the
word, "before," in that sentence you responded to), since abortion
deals merely with reproductive=process entities, and not people
(except for the woman receiving that remedy). PERSONHOOD
begins at BIRTH.
LOL!!!!!!!!!
Would that be after the 24 week limit on abortion?
What is it from week 25-birth?
WHAT "limit?" Go to: www.drtiller.com . An example of a
clinic capable of legally performing abortions at ANY point during
a pregnancy.
After that, and **only** after that, is a human entity
accorded the rights that go along with personhood. Up until
then, the entity is merely a *potential* person. And that applies to
ALL 4 stages of the reproductive process -- gametes, zygotes,
embryoes and fetuses -- ALL of which are human (but not "human
beings"), unique, and alive.
They are not human?
All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human." But all
"human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.
I think what your trying to say is that there is difference between
"human"[adjective] and "human"[noun].
A chicken egg is not a chicken, but it is chicken[adj], hence
"checken[adj] egg[noun]".
~Iain
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iain" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
30 Sep 2004 10:54:40 AM |
|
|
(Iain) wrote in message news:<6feb9a89.0409300145.905aad5@posting.google.com>...
xanadu222@mchsi.com (GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!) wrote in message news:<4163f2e1.10051248@netnews.mchsi.com>...
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:47:45 -0500,
Hateful Bigot, John Wentzky <wxpprofessional@msn.com> spewed:
Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> ("GOOD RIDDANCE on
Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!") wrote:
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come
to the point of having no decernable brain activity and then recovers,
did they cease to be alive and the become alive again?
Fallacious scenario. Never happens.
Fully-flat-line EEG = *dead*. As a doornail. No recovery
possible.
But that's apples and oranges to this issue in any case (note the
word, "before," in that sentence you responded to), since abortion
deals merely with reproductive=process entities, and not people
(except for the woman receiving that remedy). PERSONHOOD
begins at BIRTH.
LOL!!!!!!!!!
Would that be after the 24 week limit on abortion?
What is it from week 25-birth?
WHAT "limit?" Go to: www.drtiller.com . An example of a
clinic capable of legally performing abortions at ANY point during
a pregnancy.
After that, and **only** after that, is a human entity
accorded the rights that go along with personhood. Up until
then, the entity is merely a *potential* person. And that applies to
ALL 4 stages of the reproductive process -- gametes, zygotes,
embryoes and fetuses -- ALL of which are human (but not "human
beings"), unique, and alive.
They are not human?
All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human." But all
"human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.
I think what your
Apologies -- I meant "you're".
~Iain
.
|
|
|
| User: "GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
30 Sep 2004 07:30:07 PM |
|
|
On 30 Sep 2004 08:54:40 -0700,
"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Craig Chillton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human."
But all "human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.
I think what your ...
Apologies -- I meant "you're".
No prob. I spotted and corrected your typo in my response
post to you... 15 minutes before you posted this.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
30 Sep 2004 05:47:52 AM |
|
|
On 30 Sep 2004 02:45:37 -0700,
"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> ("GOOD RIDDANCE on
Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!") wrote:
Hateful Bigot, John Wentzky <wxpprofessional@msn.com> spewed:
Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> ("GOOD RIDDANCE on
Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!") wrote:
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come
to the point of having no decernable brain activity and then recovers,
did they cease to be alive and the become alive again?
Fallacious scenario. Never happens.
Fully-flat-line EEG = *dead*. As a doornail. No recovery
possible.
But that's apples and oranges to this issue in any case (note the
word, "before," in that sentence you responded to), since abortion
deals merely with reproductive=process entities, and not people
(except for the woman receiving that remedy). PERSONHOOD
begins at BIRTH.
LOL!!!!!!!!!
Would that be after the 24 week limit on abortion?
What is it from week 25-birth?
WHAT "limit?" Go to: www.drtiller.com . An example of a
clinic capable of legally performing abortions at ANY point during
a pregnancy.
After that, and **only** after that, is a human entity
accorded the rights that go along with personhood. Up until
then, the entity is merely a *potential* person. And that applies to
ALL 4 stages of the reproductive process -- gametes, zygotes,
embryoes and fetuses -- ALL of which are human (but not "human
beings"), unique, and alive.
They are not human?
All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human." But all
"human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.
I think what you're trying to say is that there is difference between
"human"[adjective] and "human"[noun].
A chicken egg is not a chicken, but it is chicken[adj], hence
"chicken[adj] egg[noun]".
Precisely. With Anti-Choicers being pretty much the only
exception (as one of their many vain disinformational moves of
desperation to prolong the life of their loathsome and doomed
agenda against women), society applies the terms "human" when
used as a noun, and "human being" solely to PEOPLE; and all
people have been BORN.
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com>
(REAL name and e-mail address, lest any bigot wrongly
think I'm hiding behind an a alias. The "alias," above,
is designed to be a visible MESSAGE, each time I post.)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Every time a person supports bigotry in public, and presents NO
relevant FACTS to back his/her stance in behalf of a loathsome
agenda against individual liberties and human rights, that person
has -- ironically -- further **damaged** the cause he/she supports.
And every time a fair-minded and sensible egalitarian opposes
such a bigot, publicly, and **presents** relevant FACTS that are
damaging to the bigot's agenda, that TOO is an additional nail in
the coffin lid of the agenda, and a push of that casket CLOSER
to the Drain of Extinction -- its well-deserved ultimate destination.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Kerry -- two medals: a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well -- they don't give medals for
going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry -- a hero, Bush -- a zero.
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.2 trillion and worsening...
The Bush 'economic' policy: - 3 million jobs and counting...
The Bush Iraq lie: - 1,052 GIs, and mounting...
Having Bush louse up my country: Worthless
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
INSIGHT on our Warmonger-in-Thief ---
http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html
AND...
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ALSO worth a look:
http://anon.newmediamill.speedera.net/anon.newmediamill/pledge_acc/index.html
And... here's what happens to people like you & me:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/21/antiwar.soldier.ap/index.html
However, the same rules don't apply to the "Elite:"
www.awolbush.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
30 Sep 2004 10:37:15 AM |
|
|
"GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!"
<xanadu222@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:416de24a.71349644@netnews.mchsi.com...
On 30 Sep 2004 02:45:37 -0700,
"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> ("GOOD RIDDANCE on
Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!") wrote:
Hateful Bigot, John Wentzky <wxpprofessional@msn.com> spewed:
Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> ("GOOD RIDDANCE on
Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!") wrote:
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Iain" <iain_ink_remove_ster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Point 1.
Death, in the sense involved with murder, involves an inactive
brain.
One cannot rob a bank before there is money in the safe.
One cannot kill a person before there is an active brain.
So if someone sufferes a traumatic brain injury and somehow come
to the point of having no decernable brain activity and then
recovers,
did they cease to be alive and the become alive again?
Fallacious scenario. Never happens.
Fully-flat-line EEG = *dead*. As a doornail. No recovery
possible.
But that's apples and oranges to this issue in any case (note the
word, "before," in that sentence you responded to), since abortion
deals merely with reproductive=process entities, and not people
(except for the woman receiving that remedy). PERSONHOOD
begins at BIRTH.
LOL!!!!!!!!!
Would that be after the 24 week limit on abortion?
What is it from week 25-birth?
WHAT "limit?" Go to: www.drtiller.com . An example of a
clinic capable of legally performing abortions at ANY point during
a pregnancy.
After that, and **only** after that, is a human entity
accorded the rights that go along with personhood. Up until
then, the entity is merely a *potential* person. And that applies to
ALL 4 stages of the reproductive process -- gametes, zygotes,
embryoes and fetuses -- ALL of which are human (but not "human
beings"), unique, and alive.
They are not human?
All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human." But all
"human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.
I think what you're trying to say is that there is difference
between
"human"[adjective] and "human"[noun].
A chicken egg is not a chicken, but it is chicken[adj], hence
"chicken[adj] egg[noun]".
Precisely. With Anti-Choicers being pretty much the only
exception (as one of their many vain disinformational moves of
desperation to prolong the life of their loathsome and doomed
agenda against women), society applies the terms "human" when
used as a noun, and "human being" solely to PEOPLE; and all
people have been BORN.
"Associated Press: Court Rules Fetus a Person"
http://www.thevanguard.org/thevanguard/other_writers/ap.shtml
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com>
(REAL name and e-mail address, lest any bigot wrongly
think I'm hiding behind an a alias. The "alias," above,
is designed to be a visible MESSAGE, each time I post.)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Every time a person supports bigotry in public, and presents NO
relevant FACTS to back his/her stance in behalf of a loathsome
agenda against individual liberties and human rights, that person
has -- ironically -- further **damaged** the cause he/she supports.
And every time a fair-minded and sensible egalitarian opposes
such a bigot, publicly, and **presents** relevant FACTS that are
damaging to the bigot's agenda, that TOO is an additional nail in
the coffin lid of the agenda, and a push of that casket CLOSER
to the Drain of Extinction -- its well-deserved ultimate destination.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Kerry -- two medals: a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well -- they don't give medals for
going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry -- a hero, Bush -- a zero.
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.2 trillion and worsening...
The Bush 'economic' policy: - 3 million jobs and counting...
The Bush Iraq lie: - 1,052 GIs, and mounting...
Having Bush louse up my country: Worthless
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
INSIGHT on our Warmonger-in-Thief ---
http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html
AND...
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ALSO worth a look:
http://anon.newmediamill.speedera.net/anon.newmediamill/pledge_acc/index.html
And... here's what happens to people like you & me:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/21/antiwar.soldier.ap/index.html
However, the same rules don't apply to the "Elite:"
www.awolbush.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Resasoned Insanity" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 01:41:39 PM |
|
|
You still haven't done it Craig. You still have not proved how you are any
different than someone who is in the womb. Prove that you are more human
than the embryoes that you so blatently advocate aborting.
{{WHAT "limit?" Go to: www.drtiller.com . An example of a clinic capable
of legally performing abortions at ANY point during a pregnancy.}}
Hate to say it but it is true. There is no limit to the time in which you
can kill un unborn baby; that is with the exception of Bush's partial birth
abortion ban. I live less that 5 miels from Tiller's clinic so the stench of
the burning flesh of babies is all to familiar that's to that killer of
human life.
{{All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human." But all
"human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.}}
How do you conclude that one can be a human being without actually being
people? In order to be consistant with your beliefs you would also be forced
to say that you support killing humans.
.
|
|
|
| User: "GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 02:13:46 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:41:39 -0500,
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
You still haven't done it Craig. You still have not proved how you
are any different than someone who is in the womb. Prove that you
are more human than the embryoes that you so...
...REASONABLY don't defend at the expense of the well-being
and future opportunities of millions of women, as hateful bastards of
Anti-Choice do.
NO person is more *human* than are the reproductive=process
entities (INCLUDING the **quadrillion** of those that are electively
aborted DAILY, worldwide, by *men*. But human entities that have
been BORN are PEOPLE... while entities that have *not* been born
aren't. And if and unless they ARE, there isn't even anything in the
entire Bible that conveys them *any* intrinsic value whatsoever. And
THAT is America's primary source of moral guidance.
{{WHAT "limit?" Go to: www.drtiller.com . An example of a
clinic capable of legally performing abortions at ANY point during
a pregnancy.}}
Hate to say it but it is true. There is no limit to the time in which you
can kill un unborn baby; ...
Right and wrong: There's no limit on when during a gestation an
abortion can be performed. But there's no such thing as an unborn
*baby*. Just "unborn" embryoes and fetuses.
...that is with the exception of Bush's [ID&E] abortion ban.
Bush is a horse's *****, and his nonsensical and hateful act has
been struck down 3 times already. The Supreme Court will send it
to Boot Hill for good. Good riddance!
I live less that 5 miels from Tiller's clinic...
Good you you. If the moronic Anti-Choicers ever harass him again,
you can come on over and join ME in defending Dr. Tiller against
those mindless and hateful loons. If you've grown a brain by that
time.
{All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human." But
all "human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.}
How do you conclude that one can be a human being without
actually being people?
Because PRSONHOOD **begins** at BIRTH. (See SIG, below.)
-- Craig Chilton
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ANALYZING ABORTION-ON-REQUEST* in the USA
*(Abortion Rights as they have existed since 1-22-73)
Abortion terminates entities (z/e/fs: zygotes, embryoes &
fetuses, up until the 7th month of gestation) which have ALL
of these characteristics in common with sperm and ova:
-- Human
-- Unique
-- As a stage of development, indispensible to future birth
-- Have NEVER experienced conscious awareness
-- Alive
...which makes it hypocritical when abortion opponents
try to defend z/e/fs but NOT sperm and ova.
And the Bible, which is the primary moral authority for the
majority of Americans:
-- In NO way condemns abortion
-- Doesn't even MENTION abortion
-- By Jesus' day, abortion had been around for 1,000 yrs.
-- Contains NO defenses of s/o/z/e/fs
-- Reserves ALL of its protection for already-BORN people
-- That the Bible regards personhood to begin at BIRTH is
made clear by it's immense emphasis on the importance
of BIRTH order, and BIRTHrights.
-- In certain cases, condemned BABIES to horrible deaths
-- Never indicates that there is anything "special" about
fertilization
-- Thus making z/e/f and sperm & ova of EQUAL worth
Abortion-on-request enables women to:
-- Put their lives back on track immediately
-- Restore their well-being to pre-unplanned pregnancy levels
-- Vast majority of women are happy with this decision
-- Most women have no regrets
-- Restore their full range of future opportunities
-- Avoid physical difficulties of a 9-month pregnancy
-- Especially important for young girls, ~12-16
-- Statistically 6-10 times safer than carrying-to-term
-- Avoid the trauma of adopting-out, and wondering later
-- Avoid possibility of changing mind about adopting-out
-- Reduce likelihood of long-term economic deprivation
-- Avoid bringing child into less-loving home
-- Avoid bringing child into unstable environment
-- Wait until timing is better before having children
-- Who then are MORE likely to be loved
-- Who then are MORE likely to be in stable home
-- And thus are LESS like to have troubled childhoods
-- And therefore more likely NOT to become criminals
-- And thus are MORE likely to become successful
Legal abortion-on-request:
-- Is exponentially safer than illegal abortions
-- Thus saving the lives of hundreds or thousands of women/yr.
-- Has been available throughout the USA since early 1973
-- Between 1973 and 2000, 30 million women have had them
-- Between 1973 and 2000, 40 million abortions have been done
Other related facts include:
-- MOST women who have abortions go on to HAVE kids later,
when the timing is better
-- Those children would NOT have been born if the abortions
had not taken place earlier, because the same sperm and
ova would not have matched up.
-- Those "2nd-round" kids STARTED reaching age 13 in
significant numbers by 1988. By the early 1990s, millions
of those "2nd-round" kids were in their mid-teens by the
early 1990s.
-- Mid-teens is the highest risk age for crime, and this
continues into the early 20s.
-- As pointed out above, wanted and loved children are
LESS prone to criminal behavior.
-- By 1995, millions of "2nd-round kids" were entering the
workforce. Perhaps a million-plus MORE have entered it
every year SINCE. By 2000, the oldest ones had reached
the age where they could be getting quite successful.
-- Since the early 1990s, the rate of violent crime in the USA
has declined dramatically, and by 2000 was at 40-year
lows in many categories.
-- The decade of the 1990s, and the year 2002 to date, in
the USA, has been the most economically-dynamic of
any nation in the entire history of the world.
Although the exact figures may be impossible to derive, the
probability that abortion-on-request has SIGNIFICANTLY benefitted
all of America's society in terms of the crime rate and the economy
is QUITE strong, despite the temporary anomaly caused by the attack
on Sept. 11, 2001. And a strong U.S. economy benefits the entire
world.
-- Originally posted to alt.abortion
and talk.abortion on Aug. 13, 2000
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 11:00:11 PM |
|
|
"GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!"
<> wrote in message
news:41660473.14550058@netnews.mchsi.com...
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:41:39 -0500,
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
You still haven't done it Craig. You still have not proved how you
are any different than someone who is in the womb. Prove that you
are more human than the embryoes that you so...
...REASONABLY don't defend at the expense of the well-being
and future opportunities of millions of women, as hateful bastards of
Anti-Choice do.
NO person is more *human* than are the reproductive=process
entities (INCLUDING the **quadrillion** of those that are electively
aborted DAILY, worldwide, by *men*. But human entities that have
been BORN are PEOPLE... while entities that have *not* been born
aren't. And if and unless they ARE, there isn't even anything in the
entire Bible that conveys them *any* intrinsic value whatsoever. And
THAT is America's primary source of moral guidance.
{{WHAT "limit?" Go to: www.drtiller.com . An example of a
clinic capable of legally performing abortions at ANY point during
a pregnancy.}}
Hate to say it but it is true. There is no limit to the time in which
you
can kill un unborn baby; ...
Right and wrong: There's no limit on when during a gestation an
abortion can be performed. But there's no such thing as an unborn
*baby*. Just "unborn" embryoes and fetuses.
...that is with the exception of Bush's [ID&E] abortion ban.
Bush is a horse's *****, and his nonsensical and hateful act has
been struck down 3 times already. The Supreme Court will send it
to Boot Hill for good. Good riddance!
I live less that 5 miels from Tiller's clinic...
Good you you. If the moronic Anti-Choicers ever harass him again,
you can come on over and join ME in defending Dr. Tiller against
those mindless and hateful loons. If you've grown a brain by that
time.
{All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human." But
all "human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.}
How do you conclude that one can be a human being without
actually being people?
Because PRSONHOOD **begins** at BIRTH.
Unborn child meets legal definition of "a person"
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2001/06/04/prsb0604.htm
-- Craig Chilton
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ANALYZING ABORTION-ON-REQUEST* in the USA
*(Abortion Rights as they have existed since 1-22-73)
Abortion terminates entities (z/e/fs: zygotes, embryoes &
fetuses, up until the 7th month of gestation) which have ALL
of these characteristics in common with sperm and ova:
-- Human
-- Unique
-- As a stage of development, indispensible to future birth
-- Have NEVER experienced conscious awareness
-- Alive
...which makes it hypocritical when abortion opponents
try to defend z/e/fs but NOT sperm and ova.
And the Bible, which is the primary moral authority for the
majority of Americans:
-- In NO way condemns abortion
-- Doesn't even MENTION abortion
-- By Jesus' day, abortion had been around for 1,000 yrs.
-- Contains NO defenses of s/o/z/e/fs
-- Reserves ALL of its protection for already-BORN people
-- That the Bible regards personhood to begin at BIRTH is
made clear by it's immense emphasis on the importance
of BIRTH order, and BIRTHrights.
-- In certain cases, condemned BABIES to horrible deaths
-- Never indicates that there is anything "special" about
fertilization
-- Thus making z/e/f and sperm & ova of EQUAL worth
Abortion-on-request enables women to:
-- Put their lives back on track immediately
-- Restore their well-being to pre-unplanned pregnancy levels
-- Vast majority of women are happy with this decision
-- Most women have no regrets
-- Restore their full range of future opportunities
-- Avoid physical difficulties of a 9-month pregnancy
-- Especially important for young girls, ~12-16
-- Statistically 6-10 times safer than carrying-to-term
-- Avoid the trauma of adopting-out, and wondering later
-- Avoid possibility of changing mind about adopting-out
-- Reduce likelihood of long-term economic deprivation
-- Avoid bringing child into less-loving home
-- Avoid bringing child into unstable environment
-- Wait until timing is better before having children
-- Who then are MORE likely to be loved
-- Who then are MORE likely to be in stable home
-- And thus are LESS like to have troubled childhoods
-- And therefore more likely NOT to become criminals
-- And thus are MORE likely to become successful
Legal abortion-on-request:
-- Is exponentially safer than illegal abortions
-- Thus saving the lives of hundreds or thousands of women/yr.
-- Has been available throughout the USA since early 1973
-- Between 1973 and 2000, 30 million women have had them
-- Between 1973 and 2000, 40 million abortions have been done
Other related facts include:
-- MOST women who have abortions go on to HAVE kids later,
when the timing is better
-- Those children would NOT have been born if the abortions
had not taken place earlier, because the same sperm and
ova would not have matched up.
-- Those "2nd-round" kids STARTED reaching age 13 in
significant numbers by 1988. By the early 1990s, millions
of those "2nd-round" kids were in their mid-teens by the
early 1990s.
-- Mid-teens is the highest risk age for crime, and this
continues into the early 20s.
-- As pointed out above, wanted and loved children are
LESS prone to criminal behavior.
-- By 1995, millions of "2nd-round kids" were entering the
workforce. Perhaps a million-plus MORE have entered it
every year SINCE. By 2000, the oldest ones had reached
the age where they could be getting quite successful.
-- Since the early 1990s, the rate of violent crime in the USA
has declined dramatically, and by 2000 was at 40-year
lows in many categories.
-- The decade of the 1990s, and the year 2002 to date, in
the USA, has been the most economically-dynamic of
any nation in the entire history of the world.
Although the exact figures may be impossible to derive, the
probability that abortion-on-request has SIGNIFICANTLY benefitted
all of America's society in terms of the crime rate and the economy
is QUITE strong, despite the temporary anomaly caused by the attack
on Sept. 11, 2001. And a strong U.S. economy benefits the entire
world.
-- Originally posted to alt.abortion
and talk.abortion on Aug. 13, 2000
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Resasoned Insanity" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 02:48:23 PM |
|
|
"GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!"
<> wrote in message
news:41660473.14550058@netnews.mchsi.com...
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:41:39 -0500,
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
You still haven't done it Craig. You still have not proved how you
are any different than someone who is in the womb. Prove that you
are more human than the embryoes that you so...
...REASONABLY don't defend at the expense of the well-being
and future opportunities of millions of women, as hateful bastards of
Anti-Choice do.
So murdering humans is ok as long as you are creating more opportunity for
someone else? Didn't hitler say something like that once after he
dehumanized the Jews like you continuously do?
NO person is more *human* than are the reproductive=process
entities (INCLUDING the **quadrillion** of those that are electively
aborted DAILY, worldwide, by *men*. But human entities that have
been BORN are PEOPLE...
Wrong, sperm cells are called sperm cells for a reason. They are cells. Not
people, not potential people.
while entities that have *not* been born
aren't. And if and unless they ARE, there isn't even anything in the
entire Bible that conveys them *any* intrinsic value whatsoever. And
THAT is America's primary source of moral guidance.
Sure there is, ever hear of thou shalt not murder?
{{WHAT "limit?" Go to: www.drtiller.com . An example of a
clinic capable of legally performing abortions at ANY point during
a pregnancy.}}
Hate to say it but it is true. There is no limit to the time in which
you
can kill un unborn baby; ...
Right and wrong: There's no limit on when during a gestation an
abortion can be performed. But there's no such thing as an unborn
*baby*. Just "unborn" embryoes and fetuses.
According to the great wisdom of Clilton. Not to most thinking people
though.
...that is with the exception of Bush's [ID&E] abortion ban.
Bush is a horse's *****, and his nonsensical and hateful act has
been struck down 3 times already. The Supreme Court will send it
to Boot Hill for good. Good riddance!
That is until the old farts who play the role of the supreme court justices
step down and Bush gets new ones up who outlaw abortion all together.
I live less that 5 miels from Tiller's clinic...
Good you you. If the moronic Anti-Choicers ever harass him again,
you can come on over and join ME in defending Dr. Tiller against
those mindless and hateful loons. If you've grown a brain by that
time.
I really am not into defending killers of human life. I am more apt to
defend it forcefully. Wanna see how? Just get in my way someday.
{All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human." But
all "human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.}
How do you conclude that one can be a human being without
actually being people?
Because PRSONHOOD **begins** at BIRTH. (See SIG, below.)
I sure did not see much other than reasons t advocate killing humans.
-- Craig Chilton
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ANALYZING ABORTION-ON-REQUEST* in the USA
*(Abortion Rights as they have existed since 1-22-73)
Abortion terminates entities (z/e/fs: zygotes, embryoes &
fetuses, up until the 7th month of gestation) which have ALL
of these characteristics in common with sperm and ova:
-- Human
-- Unique
-- As a stage of development, indispensible to future birth
-- Have NEVER experienced conscious awareness
-- Alive
...which makes it hypocritical when abortion opponents
try to defend z/e/fs but NOT sperm and ova.
And the Bible, which is the primary moral authority for the
majority of Americans:
-- In NO way condemns abortion
-- Doesn't even MENTION abortion
-- By Jesus' day, abortion had been around for 1,000 yrs.
-- Contains NO defenses of s/o/z/e/fs
-- Reserves ALL of its protection for already-BORN people
-- That the Bible regards personhood to begin at BIRTH is
made clear by it's immense emphasis on the importance
of BIRTH order, and BIRTHrights.
-- In certain cases, condemned BABIES to horrible deaths
-- Never indicates that there is anything "special" about
fertilization
-- Thus making z/e/f and sperm & ova of EQUAL worth
Abortion-on-request enables women to:
-- Put their lives back on track immediately
-- Restore their well-being to pre-unplanned pregnancy levels
-- Vast majority of women are happy with this decision
-- Most women have no regrets
-- Restore their full range of future opportunities
-- Avoid physical difficulties of a 9-month pregnancy
-- Especially important for young girls, ~12-16
-- Statistically 6-10 times safer than carrying-to-term
-- Avoid the trauma of adopting-out, and wondering later
-- Avoid possibility of changing mind about adopting-out
-- Reduce likelihood of long-term economic deprivation
-- Avoid bringing child into less-loving home
-- Avoid bringing child into unstable environment
-- Wait until timing is better before having children
-- Who then are MORE likely to be loved
-- Who then are MORE likely to be in stable home
-- And thus are LESS like to have troubled childhoods
-- And therefore more likely NOT to become criminals
-- And thus are MORE likely to become successful
Legal abortion-on-request:
-- Is exponentially safer than illegal abortions
-- Thus saving the lives of hundreds or thousands of women/yr.
-- Has been available throughout the USA since early 1973
-- Between 1973 and 2000, 30 million women have had them
-- Between 1973 and 2000, 40 million abortions have been done
Other related facts include:
-- MOST women who have abortions go on to HAVE kids later,
when the timing is better
-- Those children would NOT have been born if the abortions
had not taken place earlier, because the same sperm and
ova would not have matched up.
-- Those "2nd-round" kids STARTED reaching age 13 in
significant numbers by 1988. By the early 1990s, millions
of those "2nd-round" kids were in their mid-teens by the
early 1990s.
-- Mid-teens is the highest risk age for crime, and this
continues into the early 20s.
-- As pointed out above, wanted and loved children are
LESS prone to criminal behavior.
-- By 1995, millions of "2nd-round kids" were entering the
workforce. Perhaps a million-plus MORE have entered it
every year SINCE. By 2000, the oldest ones had reached
the age where they could be getting quite successful.
-- Since the early 1990s, the rate of violent crime in the USA
has declined dramatically, and by 2000 was at 40-year
lows in many categories.
-- The decade of the 1990s, and the year 2002 to date, in
the USA, has been the most economically-dynamic of
any nation in the entire history of the world.
Although the exact figures may be impossible to derive, the
probability that abortion-on-request has SIGNIFICANTLY benefitted
all of America's society in terms of the crime rate and the economy
is QUITE strong, despite the temporary anomaly caused by the attack
on Sept. 11, 2001. And a strong U.S. economy benefits the entire
world.
-- Originally posted to alt.abortion
and talk.abortion on Aug. 13, 2000
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.
|
|
|
| User: "Johnny" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 04:10:14 PM |
|
|
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_kE6d.3653$ek.2719@okepread03...
"GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!"
< > wrote in message
news:41660473.14550058@netnews.mchsi.com...
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:41:39 -0500,
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote:
You still haven't done it Craig. You still have not proved how you
are any different than someone who is in the womb. Prove that you
are more human than the embryoes that you so...
...REASONABLY don't defend at the expense of the well-being
and future opportunities of millions of women, as hateful bastards of
Anti-Choice do.
So murdering humans is ok as long as you are creating more opportunity for
someone else? Didn't hitler say something like that once after he
dehumanized the Jews like you continuously do?
NO person is more *human* than are the reproductive=process
entities (INCLUDING the **quadrillion** of those that are electively
aborted DAILY, worldwide, by *men*. But human entities that have
been BORN are PEOPLE...
Wrong, sperm cells are called sperm cells for a reason. They are cells.
Not people, not potential people.
while entities that have *not* been born
aren't. And if and unless they ARE, there isn't even anything in the
entire Bible that conveys them *any* intrinsic value whatsoever. And
THAT is America's primary source of moral guidance.
Sure there is, ever hear of thou shalt not murder?
{{WHAT "limit?" Go to: www.drtiller.com . An example of a
clinic capable of legally performing abortions at ANY point during
a pregnancy.}}
Hate to say it but it is true. There is no limit to the time in which
you
can kill un unborn baby; ...
Right and wrong: There's no limit on when during a gestation an
abortion can be performed. But there's no such thing as an unborn
*baby*. Just "unborn" embryoes and fetuses.
According to the great wisdom of Clilton. Not to most thinking people
though.
...that is with the exception of Bush's [ID&E] abortion ban.
Bush is a horse's *****, and his nonsensical and hateful act has
been struck down 3 times already. The Supreme Court will send it
to Boot Hill for good. Good riddance!
That is until the old farts who play the role of the supreme court
justices step down and Bush gets new ones up who outlaw abortion all
together.
I live less that 5 miels from Tiller's clinic...
Good you you. If the moronic Anti-Choicers ever harass him again,
you can come on over and join ME in defending Dr. Tiller against
those mindless and hateful loons. If you've grown a brain by that
time.
I really am not into defending killers of human life. I am more apt to
defend it forcefully. Wanna see how? Just get in my way someday.
Need any help?
{All cells and entities possessing human DNA are "human." But
all "human **beings**" are PEOPLE. Who've been BORN.}
How do you conclude that one can be a human being without
actually being people?
Because PRSONHOOD **begins** at BIRTH. (See SIG, below.)
I sure did not see much other than reasons t advocate killing humans.
-- Craig Chilton
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
ANALYZING ABORTION-ON-REQUEST* in the USA
*(Abortion Rights as they have existed since 1-22-73)
Abortion terminates entities (z/e/fs: zygotes, embryoes &
fetuses, up until the 7th month of gestation) which have ALL
of these characteristics in common with sperm and ova:
-- Human
-- Unique
-- As a stage of development, indispensible to future birth
-- Have NEVER experienced conscious awareness
-- Alive
...which makes it hypocritical when abortion opponents
try to defend z/e/fs but NOT sperm and ova.
And the Bible, which is the primary moral authority for the
majority of Americans:
-- In NO way condemns abortion
-- Doesn't even MENTION abortion
-- By Jesus' day, abortion had been around for 1,000 yrs.
-- Contains NO defenses of s/o/z/e/fs
-- Reserves ALL of its protection for already-BORN people
-- That the Bible regards personhood to begin at BIRTH is
made clear by it's immense emphasis on the importance
of BIRTH order, and BIRTHrights.
-- In certain cases, condemned BABIES to horrible deaths
-- Never indicates that there is anything "special" about
fertilization
-- Thus making z/e/f and sperm & ova of EQUAL worth
Abortion-on-request enables women to:
-- Put their lives back on track immediately
-- Restore their well-being to pre-unplanned pregnancy levels
-- Vast majority of women are happy with this decision
-- Most women have no regrets
-- Restore their full range of future opportunities
-- Avoid physical difficulties of a 9-month pregnancy
-- Especially important for young girls, ~12-16
-- Statistically 6-10 times safer than carrying-to-term
-- Avoid the trauma of adopting-out, and wondering later
-- Avoid possibility of changing mind about adopting-out
-- Reduce likelihood of long-term economic deprivation
-- Avoid bringing child into less-loving home
-- Avoid bringing child into unstable environment
-- Wait until timing is better before having children
-- Who then are MORE likely to be loved
-- Who then are MORE likely to be in stable home
-- And thus are LESS like to have troubled childhoods
-- And therefore more likely NOT to become criminals
-- And thus are MORE likely to become successful
Legal abortion-on-request:
-- Is exponentially safer than illegal abortions
-- Thus saving the lives of hundreds or thousands of women/yr.
-- Has been available throughout the USA since early 1973
-- Between 1973 and 2000, 30 million women have had them
-- Between 1973 and 2000, 40 million abortions have been done
Other related facts include:
-- MOST women who have abortions go on to HAVE kids later,
when the timing is better
-- Those children would NOT have been born if the abortions
had not taken place earlier, because the same sperm and
ova would not have matched up.
-- Those "2nd-round" kids STARTED reaching age 13 in
significant numbers by 1988. By the early 1990s, millions
of those "2nd-round" kids were in their mid-teens by the
early 1990s.
-- Mid-teens is the highest risk age for crime, and this
continues into the early 20s.
-- As pointed out above, wanted and loved children are
LESS prone to criminal behavior.
-- By 1995, millions of "2nd-round kids" were entering the
workforce. Perhaps a million-plus MORE have entered it
every year SINCE. By 2000, the oldest ones had reached
the age where they could be getting quite successful.
-- Since the early 1990s, the rate of violent crime in the USA
has declined dramatically, and by 2000 was at 40-year
lows in many categories.
-- The decade of the 1990s, and the year 2002 to date, in
the USA, has been the most economically-dynamic of
any nation in the entire history of the world.
Although the exact figures may be impossible to derive, the
probability that abortion-on-request has SIGNIFICANTLY benefitted
all of America's society in terms of the crime rate and the economy
is QUITE strong, despite the temporary anomaly caused by the attack
on Sept. 11, 2001. And a strong U.S. economy benefits the entire
world.
-- Originally posted to alt.abortion
and talk.abortion on Aug. 13, 2000
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
.
|
|
|
| User: "Patrick Lee Humphrey" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 06:56:25 PM |
|
|
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_kE6d.3653$ek.2719@okepread03...
[...]
I really am not into defending killers of human life. I am more apt to
defend it forcefully. Wanna see how? Just get in my way someday.
Need any help?
No, *you* don't hate people who disagree with your insanity, Fruitloop.
Thanks for asking that in a public newsgroup, though...sunshine disinfects,
which is why you avoid it.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
www.chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2004-05 Houston Aeros)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Johnny" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 08:43:08 PM |
|
|
"Patrick Lee Humphrey" <patrick@io.com> wrote in message
news:szk655wbpee.fsf@fnord.io.com...
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_kE6d.3653$ek.2719@okepread03...
[...]
I really am not into defending killers of human life. I am more apt to
defend it forcefully. Wanna see how? Just get in my way someday.
Need any help?
No, *you* don't hate people who disagree with your insanity, Fruitloop.
I only asked.
I wouldn't mind attending one of those rallies myself.
You got a problem with it?
Thanks for asking that in a public newsgroup, though...sunshine
disinfects,
which is why you avoid it.
It is a lot easier to get out and enjoy the sunshine when you are not done
in to bankruptcy as happened to me.
Where is the cash they are supposed to pay me?
I have been waiting for more than ten years, yet they are still abortionist
and unlawful fools.
I can wait on disaster after disaster until these unjust people are forced
to do their required duty.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Patrick Lee Humphrey" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
29 Sep 2004 09:39:29 PM |
|
|
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
"Patrick Lee Humphrey" <patrick@io.com> wrote in message
news:szk655wbpee.fsf@fnord.io.com...
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_kE6d.3653$ek.2719@okepread03...
[...]
I really am not into defending killers of human life. I am more apt to
defend it forcefully. Wanna see how? Just get in my way someday.
Need any help?
No, *you* don't hate people who disagree with your insanity, Fruitloop.
I only asked.
I wouldn't mind attending one of those rallies myself.
You got a problem with it?
I won't be at anything you defile, son. I'd hate to be you if you decide to
get in the way of anyone who's got business with one of the MDs you're trying
to deny access to, though.
Thanks for asking that in a public newsgroup, though...sunshine disinfects,
which is why you avoid it.
It is a lot easier to get out and enjoy the sunshine when you are not done in
to bankruptcy as happened to me. Where is the cash they are supposed to pay
me?
Where's the proof it's yours to begin with?
I have been waiting for more than ten years, yet they are still abortionist
and unlawful fools.
Abortionists work for Duke Energy? You're plainly loony again.
I can wait on disaster after disaster until these unjust people are forced
to do their required duty.
They did their required duty. You made the stupid decisions. Take
responsibility for your idiocy.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
www.chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2004-05 Houston Aeros)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Johnny" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
30 Sep 2004 09:49:22 AM |
|
|
"Patrick Lee Humphrey" <patrick@io.com> wrote in message
news:szkk6uciiou.fsf@fnord.io.com...
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
"Patrick Lee Humphrey" <patrick@io.com> wrote in message
news:szk655wbpee.fsf@fnord.io.com...
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
"Resasoned Insanity" <mintclovers@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_kE6d.3653$ek.2719@okepread03...
[...]
I really am not into defending killers of human life. I am more apt
to
defend it forcefully. Wanna see how? Just get in my way someday.
Need any help?
No, *you* don't hate people who disagree with your insanity, Fruitloop.
I only asked.
I wouldn't mind attending one of those rallies myself.
You got a problem with it?
I won't be at anything you defile, son. I'd hate to be you if you decide
to
get in the way of anyone who's got business with one of the MDs you're
trying
to deny access to, though.
Thanks for asking that in a public newsgroup, though...sunshine
disinfects,
which is why you avoid it.
It is a lot easier to get out and enjoy the sunshine when you are not done
in
to bankruptcy as happened to me. Where is the cash they are supposed to
pay
me?
Where's the proof it's yours to begin with?
The law prescribes that I be paid.
I have been waiting for more than ten years, yet they are still
abortionist
and unlawful fools.
Abortionists work for Duke Energy? You're plainly loony again.
I can wait on disaster after disaster until these unjust people are forced
to do their required duty.
They did their required duty. You made the stupid decisions. Take
responsibility for your idiocy.
They slipped, not me.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Patrick Lee Humphrey" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
30 Sep 2004 04:14:50 PM |
|
|
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
"Patrick Lee Humphrey" <patrick@io.com> wrote in message
news:szkk6uciiou.fsf@fnord.io.com...
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
[...]
It is a lot easier to get out and enjoy the sunshine when you are not done
in to bankruptcy as happened to me. Where is the cash they are supposed to
pay me?
Where's the proof it's yours to begin with?
The law prescribes that I be paid.
A jury of your peers obviously didn't agree with you.
I have been waiting for more than ten years, yet they are still abortionist
and unlawful fools.
Abortionists work for Duke Energy? You're plainly loony again.
I can wait on disaster after disaster until these unjust people are forced
to do their required duty.
They did their required duty. You made the stupid decisions. Take
responsibility for your idiocy.
They slipped, not me.
Once again: a jury of your peers didn't see it your way. Live with it and
move on -- it's been more than ten years by now.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
www.chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2004-05 Houston Aeros)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Johnny" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
30 Sep 2004 07:57:16 PM |
|
|
"Patrick Lee Humphrey" <patrick@io.com> wrote in message
news:szkwtyb1mt1.fsf@fnord.io.com...
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
"Patrick Lee Humphrey" <patrick@io.com> wrote in message
news:szkk6uciiou.fsf@fnord.io.com...
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
[...]
It is a lot easier to get out and enjoy the sunshine when you are not
done
in to bankruptcy as happened to me. Where is the cash they are supposed
to
pay me?
Where's the proof it's yours to begin with?
The law prescribes that I be paid.
A jury of your peers obviously didn't agree with you.
It never went to court.
How many times do I need to tell you that?
I have been waiting for more than ten years, yet they are still
abortionist
and unlawful fools.
Abortionists work for Duke Energy? You're plainly loony again.
I can wait on disaster after disaster until these unjust people are
forced
to do their required duty.
They did their required duty. You made the stupid decisions. Take
responsibility for your idiocy.
They slipped, not me.
Once again: a jury of your peers didn't see it your way. Live with it
and
move on -- it's been more than ten years by now.
What jury?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Patrick Lee Humphrey" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion in a Nutshell 2 |
30 Sep 2004 09:54:39 PM |
|
|
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
"Patrick Lee Humphrey" <patrick@io.com> wrote in message
news:szkwtyb1mt1.fsf@fnord.io.com...
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
"Patrick Lee Humphrey" <patrick@io.com> wrote in message
news:szkk6uciiou.fsf@fnord.io.com...
"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> writes:
[...]
It is a lot easier to get out and enjoy the sunshine when you are not
done in to bankruptcy as happened to me. Where is the cash they are
supposed to pay me?
Where's the proof it's yours to begin with?
The law prescribes that I be paid.
A jury of your peers obviously didn't agree with you.
It never went to court.
How many times do | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
