| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"kidigus" |
| Date: |
26 Oct 2005 01:46:50 AM |
| Object: |
ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
I believe that very few people actually think of abortion as killing a
child. If mothers were wheeling strollers into abortion clinics and
coming out empty handed I would blow the fucking place to bits. I
wouldn't fight the perpetrators of such a crime using reason and
propaganda and clever bumper stickers. I would fucking kill them.
Imagine, watching a woman walking into an abortion clinic pushing that
stroller...can you see her in your minds eye? Imagine the occupant of
the stroller looking around wondering "What's this?" and "Where
are we?"...see him?...see her? Now imagine the occupant of the
stroller being pushed through waiting rooms and finally into the last
room he or she will ever see.
What follows is awful. What follows will not be described. What
follows is worth my life and the life of anyone who tries to stop me to
prevent. No human worth there salt would dispute that. And yet nearly
all humans allow the current practice of terminating a pregnancy to
continue without lifting a finger to stop it. Why is that? Are you
scared? Would you be scared in the above scenario? What would your
bumper sticker say?
You talk very big. You think big thoughts. But do you believe?
Well?
I only ask because you really don't ACT like you believe.
Go ahead and stop them. Send the message. You do, and you will learn
what society thinks about murder. Make your case to the courts and you
will hear what your peers have to say about who the evil people are.
Ask Paul Hill. Oh, right he was executed for murder. He believed
though. He acted like he believed. He was wrong, and he paid the
price.
Keep talking though. People ARE listening. Very few are believing.
P.S.: For God's thoughts on abortion I refer you to the only verses I
could find in the good book that tackle this most important of
spiritual issues: Exodus 21:22-23
P.P.S.: Note both the circumstances and the punishment.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
27 Oct 2005 04:16:16 AM |
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kidigus <kidigus@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe that very few people actually think of abortion as killing a
child. If mothers were wheeling strollers into abortion clinics and
coming out empty handed I would blow the fucking place to bits. I
wouldn't fight the perpetrators of such a crime using reason and
propaganda and clever bumper stickers. I would fucking kill them.
Imagine, watching a woman walking into an abortion clinic pushing that
stroller...can you see her in your minds eye? Imagine the occupant of
the stroller looking around wondering "What's this?" and "Where
are we?"...see him?...see her? Now imagine the occupant of the
stroller being pushed through waiting rooms and finally into the last
room he or she will ever see.
What follows is awful. What follows will not be described. What
follows is worth my life and the life of anyone who tries to stop me to
prevent. No human worth there salt would dispute that. And yet nearly
all humans allow the current practice of terminating a pregnancy to
continue without lifting a finger to stop it. Why is that? Are you
scared? Would you be scared in the above scenario? What would your
bumper sticker say?
You talk very big. You think big thoughts. But do you believe?
Well?
You make a strong challenge and paint a horrific picture. I'd be
interested to learn your thoughts about the analogy that you make
above, about who do you think is the person to blame for the murder?
Who do you have to influence to prevent the murder? Who do you think
you have to stop? Who is innocent?
Go ahead and stop them. Send the message. You do, and you will learn
what society thinks about murder.
I assume that here you are referring to the fact that legally the
doctors, nurses and the mother are all protected by the law provided
they follow the rules that the law lays down as to methods and timing
of the abortion, and it is your view that society, through a majority
enactment of this law, has decided that abortion, within these limits,
is not murder?
Make your case to the courts and you
will hear what your peers have to say about who the evil people are.
I'm interested now in hearing your thoughts on who the evil people are.
Bryn
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| User: "kidigus" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
27 Oct 2005 01:34:01 PM |
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What I wrote is not a challenge. I was attempting to throw rhetoric
into contrast with reality. "murdering children" slips so easily
out of the mouth but as I tried to illustrate it doesn't match the
actions taken by those who make the allegations. When it comes to this
issue I find most people to be truly agnostic (not in a theological
sense).
"When does life begin?"
The actual answer is and has to be,
"I don't know."
Not even the Bible gives a clear answer to follow. The term "with
child" does appear throughout but in a couple of verses a child is
not counted (God's orders) among the tribe until he or she reaches one
month in age (Leviticus, 27:6 and Numbers, 3:15-16). The penalty for
killing a fetus during an attack on a pregnant woman (the closest to an
abortion the bible offers) is:
"the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the
judges determine"
Exodus, 21:22
This makes it difficult for a true scholar of the Bible to make a case
for God's will in regards to abortion. Granted, in this example it
says nothing about the attackers intent and it is possible to make the
case that this is accidental and therefore God is being forgiving. The
main issue, in my mind, is that this is the extent of the Bible's
advice regarding the unnatural death of the unborn. This leaves us
with nothing to guide us but our own ideas on the origin of life. This
bothers me.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
27 Oct 2005 06:15:28 PM |
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kidigus <kidigus@gmail.com> wrote:
What I wrote is not a challenge.
Sorry, I picked you up wrong. I thought you were challenging those who
argued that abortion was murder to use physical force to intervene at
their local abortion clinic so as to put actions where there mouth was,
so to speak. I understood you to say that such an action would be
deemed by society to be punishable, in contrast to the actions of the
medical staff and mother procuring the abortion which society deems not
punishable. Sorry I mistook your intention.
I was attempting to throw rhetoric
into contrast with reality. "murdering children" slips so easily
out of the mouth but as I tried to illustrate it doesn't match the
actions taken by those who make the allegations. When it comes to this
issue I find most people to be truly agnostic (not in a theological
sense).
"When does life begin?"
The actual answer is and has to be,
"I don't know."
Not even the Bible gives a clear answer to follow. The term "with
child" does appear throughout but in a couple of verses a child is
not counted (God's orders) among the tribe until he or she reaches one
month in age (Leviticus, 27:6 and Numbers, 3:15-16). The penalty for
killing a fetus during an attack on a pregnant woman (the closest to an
abortion the bible offers) is:
"the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the
judges determine"
Exodus, 21:22
This makes it difficult for a true scholar of the Bible to make a case
for God's will in regards to abortion. Granted, in this example it
says nothing about the attackers intent and it is possible to make the
case that this is accidental and therefore God is being forgiving. The
main issue, in my mind, is that this is the extent of the Bible's
advice regarding the unnatural death of the unborn. This leaves us
with nothing to guide us but our own ideas on the origin of life. This
bothers me.
What are you referring to now? Evolution/creationism or
ensoulment/inception of personhood?
Bryn
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| User: "kidigus" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
27 Oct 2005 06:44:51 PM |
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I'm referring to the latter. Maybe I shouldn't be turning this
into a religious topic. I'm sure there are agnostics and atheists
who say that abortion is murder. Notice I didn't say "believe"
abortion is murder. And as for your statement about people "who
argued that abortion was murder", these people shouldn't need my
urging. Not if they really believed that children were being murdered.
I know this sounds like a call to action but believe me I am encouraged
by the lack of action. It shows me that humans have still not given
themselves so completely to their fantasies. They can still separate
the two worlds, at least to some degree. One reality sees children
being slaughtered and yet it is not so real in their minds as to cause
them to do more than talk about it.
Some see the doctors and nurses and pregnant women as evil. They deal
with this evil in such a civil way. My question is would they be so
civil if newborns rather than fetuses were being killed?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
28 Oct 2005 05:13:04 AM |
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kidigus <kidigus@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm referring to the latter.
ensoulment/inception of personhood
Maybe I shouldn't be turning this
into a religious topic. I'm sure there are agnostics and atheists
who say that abortion is murder. Notice I didn't say "believe"
abortion is murder. And as for your statement about people "who
argued that abortion was murder", these people shouldn't need my
urging.
Not if they really believed that children were being murdered.
OK, then, my original question is relevant: whom do you think is to
blame for the murder?
I know this sounds like a call to action but believe me I am encouraged
by the lack of action. It shows me that humans have still not given
themselves so completely to their fantasies. They can still separate
the two worlds, at least to some degree. One reality sees children
being slaughtered and yet it is not so real in their minds as to cause
them to do more than talk about it.
Some see the doctors and nurses and pregnant women as evil. They deal
with this evil in such a civil way. My question is would they be so
civil if newborns rather than fetuses were being killed?
There are many dangers with vigilantism, including punishing the
innocent, disrespecting the law and encouraging anarchy. However, your
thought experiment can help explore the morality of abortion, which is
why I was asking you to clarify which of the actors in your
hypothetical situation you felt was to blame (just so your vigilante
does not harm the innocent!).
Bryn
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| User: "kidigus" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
28 Oct 2005 11:54:41 AM |
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I thought it was pretty obvious that I included myself in the group
that does not believe that abortion is murder and therefore the only
murder that was described was that of the clinic workers and patients
who I believe to be innocent. I believe that people are, for the most
part, acting appropriately but the rhetoric is inconsistent with their
actions.
There are some who were inspired by Paul Hill. They thought that
shooting Dr. John Britton and James Barrett was not murder but
justifiable homicide. Had Doctor Britton been guilty of murder I
would tend to agree, however I don't believe he was. I am acting like
I don't believe he was. I believe that Paul Hill was guilty. At the
same time I do not believe that he should have been executed. I have
always opposed the death penalty.
What I do object to is hypocrisy. I can not abide pointless blathering
but when it is spoken from a pulpit or screamed into a microphone it
becomes dangerous.
Fetuses are not children. If they were we would not be talking about
them, we would be rescuing them together, side by side. We find
ourselves on the opposite sides of a debate simply because we are human.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
28 Oct 2005 05:00:47 PM |
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kidigus <kidigus@gmail.com> wrote:
I thought it was pretty obvious that I included myself in the group
that does not believe that abortion is murder and therefore the only
murder that was described was that of the clinic workers and patients
who I believe to be innocent. I believe that people are, for the most
part, acting appropriately but the rhetoric is inconsistent with their
actions.
There are some who were inspired by Paul Hill. They thought that
shooting Dr. John Britton and James Barrett was not murder but
justifiable homicide. Had Doctor Britton been guilty of murder I
would tend to agree, however I don't believe he was. I am acting like
I don't believe he was. I believe that Paul Hill was guilty. At the
same time I do not believe that he should have been executed. I have
always opposed the death penalty.
What I do object to is hypocrisy. I can not abide pointless blathering
but when it is spoken from a pulpit or screamed into a microphone it
becomes dangerous.
Fetuses are not children. If they were we would not be talking about
them, we would be rescuing them together, side by side. We find
ourselves on the opposite sides of a debate simply because we are human.
Thank you for clarifying.
Bryn
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| User: "kidigus" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
28 Oct 2005 05:46:55 PM |
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You are quite welcome. I enjoyed our chat.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
28 Oct 2005 07:31:32 PM |
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kidigus <kidigus@gmail.com> wrote:
I thought it was pretty obvious that I included myself in the group
that does not believe that abortion is murder and therefore the only
murder that was described was that of the clinic workers and patients
who I believe to be innocent.
Actually that wasn't clear at all.
What I now understand you to be saying is that if mothers took their
children into a baby killing clinic there would be such an outrage
among bystanders that the bystanders would take it upon themselves to
intervene and attempt to save the children from being killed,
regardless of the consequences to themselves.
You go on to conclude that, since you don't observe much of this sort
of direct intervention on abortion clinics, it must be because those
who believe abortion is murder, at some deep level within themselves,
recognise that what is being done in this abortion clinic is not murder
because they realise that the fetus that is being taken from the mother
is not a child. You also conclude that such people who only talk about
abortion being murder but fail to do what Paul Hill did are necessarily
hypocrites.
Just to take your thought experiment a little further, suppose a law
had been passed that allowed mothers to have their children killed
provided they were under 6 months old and the killing was performed by
a humane, painless method, that this law had been passed by a majority
of the citizens, and that the mothers and the medical staff were
protected from any legal process normally associated with killing a
person. This law would make the bystanders liable to criminal action
if they intervened in the manner you suggest. What might the
bystanders do instead, that would keep them out of the criminal courts?
Bryn
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| User: "kidigus" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
29 Oct 2005 01:02:04 PM |
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I apologize if I was unclear before.
The problem with your proposed mental exercise is that you presuppose
an acceptance of these actions by a majority of people. I don't
think I went quite that far but as you pointed out I can be pretty
unclear at times.
Nevertheless, what the minority in this case should do, as there is no
debate in your scenario over "is this a life?", is save lives.
Whatever it takes, whatever the cost.
Do you think you would do any less? I do understand that there is an
extreme civility in some, but to take it to this level?
"Oh my GOD Henry, LOOK! They're murdering CHILDREN over there!
Boy have I got a bumper sticker for THEM!"
I believe at some level we would just know to protect the species. It
would be clear. When a child (outside of the womb) is murdered you can
see this clarity. Hawks, Doves, Democrats, Republicans it doesn't
matter. There is consensus. We know that evil has happened and the
evil person must pay a price. We do not agree on the price but
that's another topic. This is what truth looks like in the wild. I
was taught that, "Truth is that on which reasonable people disagree,
can agree." It's a Hegelian dialectic spin-off. When you apply
this simple-minded algorithm to everyday problems you find yourself
being very forgiving.
I see no truth is this debate unless we can agree. I see no
possibility of an agreement when the core of the debate is the origin
of life. We are humans. We don't have the answer. There are those
who would say that's not true, and, based on my own definition of
Truth, I'd be one of them.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to be me?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
31 Oct 2005 03:30:19 AM |
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Kidigus, I think you are saying that you find my addition to your
thought experiment laughably illogical: that it is patently absurd that
any of your fellow citizens in my imaginary world, let alone a
majority, could ever pass into law the concept of killing infants
before they were 6 months old. After all, the dividing line of 6
months age is so arbitrary as to deciding when infants become people
compared to the clear event of childbirth, when a fetus becomes a child
and a person in our world.
However, I maintain that, in such a world, holders of the minority view
would be constrained from acting in the violent way you describe
against clinics, medical staff and mothers not because they have doubts
about the justification for their position but because the law would
make them out to be the guilty parties and would make them liable to
imprisonment or whatever the consequential punishment is for murder.
Indeed, all they would be left with, legally, would be their powers of
persuasion to convince the mothers and the clinicians that killing the
infants was, while legal, morally wrong. It occurs to me that you will
be able to imagine quite well how frustrating that would be.
You ask if this imaginary world has any debate about whether or not an
infant under 6 months "is alive" or has personhood. Well, clearly, the
effect of the law is to deprive them of the protection which is
afforded to children over 6 months, and I imagine that the subject is
hotly debated, particularly the ludicrous 6 month dividing line (which
would be timed to the second), but I will stipulate that the imaginary
legislation is silent on the issue of personhood, does not define it,
does not venture any definition of when it starts and does not mention
the concept at all.
How is the lack of violence on the part of the minority proof of your
view that they therefore accept at any level the justification for the
killing of these infants?
Bryn
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| User: "kidigus" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
31 Oct 2005 06:42:53 PM |
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I apologize. When you said "...children killed provided they were
under 6 months old... ", I thought you meant postpartum.
You are absolutely right about the arbitrary trimester ruling. This
may surprise you but the closer the fetus comes to viability, the more
uncomfortable I am with terminating the pregnancy. After viability (I
do apologize for the clinical sound of that) I do begin to look at the
fetus differently. This is chiefly because the fetus has now become
something that can be helped by me. That does not make it my concern
although it does concern me. Do you understand the difference?
Being a bleeding heart liberal I have dedicated decades of my life to
the disabled. I worked with dual diagnosed (mental health issues as
well as mentally retarded) adults for nine years. These were men and
women who were cast away by their families often soon after they were
born. They could be and should be helped by all of us. I have been
beaten, kicked, bitten, vomited on, ***** on, pissed on and verbally
abused more times than a person should in a lifetime. I did it and
suffered through it because I knew I was helping them. I kept them
safe and loved them in spite of what there bodies did. I knew there
minds and they were begging for help (although some were just plain
assholes in crippled bodies).
I don't know when life starts and neither do you. I do not agree with
Sandra Day O'Connor when she states that "there is no justification
in law or logic for the trimester framework adopted in Roe". Anyone
who says there is "no logical justification" is speaking in
absolutes which in my opinion is being closed minded. I f you cannot
find a way to logically disagree with yourself then you aren't trying
hard enough. Legally speaking, however, one can make the argument that
Roe was completely without precedent. This is true to a degree but not
to the degree that a lot of people think.
When we look at the history of the supreme court beginning with Marbury
v. Madison when the court really started to find it's feet, we see a
fairly straight forward purpose was given to the courts.
Constitutionality of law (or laws). Many people think and talk about
Roe as a case in which the courts found abortion to be constitutional.
Both you and I and anyone who read the decision know that this is not
the case. What made this case unique was that we were focusing on the
mother. This is when the states interest began to pale. When a mother
stands up and says "Stop right there!" and draws the line at her
body who can put together a logical counter.
So many people think of Federal and State as being the alpha and the
omega. There is however the individual. How could you and why would
you want to deny the individual of the right to determine for
themselves a matter that can only be decided by them.
Will you imprison women who talk about terminating their pregnancy?
Will you then pay for her pre and postnatal care until she carries to
term? Will you pay for the childs upbringing while his or her mother
serves the rest of her sentence for threatening murder? How far do you
want to take the law?
We lived in a world where Abortion was illegal. How was that world
different from this one? One thing that they both had in common was
ABORTIONS!
I'm starting to blather. While I do think that there is no hope for
mankind, I will say that of all of our problems this is one of the
easiest ones to solve.
"I just want to say one word to you, just one word."
"Yes, sir."
"Are you listening?"
"Yes I am."
"Prophylactics."
Also, sooner or later a Scientists will make the startling claim that
we can now remove a human fetus from it's mother's womb and suspend
it's development. Then we will have factories containing these
millions of fetal "coke cans" ready and waiting for the right place
to grow and prosper.
Easy-Peasy.
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| User: "kidigus" |
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| Title: Re: ABORTION IS MURDER!! Really? |
29 Oct 2005 12:27:03 PM |
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I apologize if I was unclear before.
The problem with your proposed mental exercise is that you presuppose
and acceptance of these actions by a majority of people. I don't
think I went quite that far but as you pointed out I can be pretty
unclear at times.
Nevertheless, what the minority in this case should do, as there is no
debate in your scenario over "is this a life?", is save lives.
Whatever it takes, whatever the cost.
Do you think you would do any less? I do understand that there is an
extreme civility in some, but to take it to this level?
"Oh my GOD Henry, LOOK! They're murdering CHILDREN over there!
Boy have I got a bumper sticker for THEM!"
I believe at some level we would just know to protect the species. It
would be clear. When a child (outside of the womb) is murdered you can
see this clarity. Hawks, Doves, Democrats, Republicans it doesn't
matter. There is consensus. We know that evil has happened and the
evil person must pay a price. We do not agree on the price but
that's another topic. This is what truth looks like in the wild. I
was taught that, "Truth is that on which reasonable people disagree,
can agree." It's a Hegelian dialectic spin-off. When you apply
this simple-minded algorithm to everyday problems you find yourself
being very forgiving.
I see no truth is this debate unless we can agree. I see no
possibility of an agreement when the core of the debate is the origin
of life. We are humans. We don't have the answer. There are those
who would say that's not true, and, based on my own definition of
Truth, I'd be one of them.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to be me?
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