| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"papa jack" |
| Date: |
01 Aug 2004 05:05:53 PM |
| Object: |
Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
http://hurd.gnufans.org/ilse/lit/sexton.htm
The Abortion
Anne Sexton
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Just as the earth puckered its mouth,
each bud puffing out from its knot,
I changed my shoes, and then drove south.
Up past the Blue Mountains, where
Pennsylvania humps on endlessly,
wearing, like a crayoned cat, its green hair,
its roads sunken in like a gray washboard;
where, in truth, the ground cracks evilly,
a dark socket from which the coal has poured,
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
the grass as bristly and stout as chives,
and me wondering when the ground would break,
and me wondering how anything fragile survives;
Up in Pennsylvania, I met a little man,
not Rumpelstiltskin, at all, at all...
he took the fullness that love began.
Returning north, even the sky grew thin
like a high window looking nowhere.
The road was as flat as a sheet of tin.
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Yes, woman, such logic will lead
to loss without death. Or say what you meant,
you coward... this baby that I bleed.
__________________________________________________________
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
.
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| User: "Mustard" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 11:45:02 PM |
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(papa jack) wrote in message news:<bd9f1f6b.0408011405.30bafa04@posting.google.com>...
http://hurd.gnufans.org/ilse/lit/sexton.htm
The Abortion
Anne Sexton
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Just as the earth puckered its mouth,
each bud puffing out from its knot,
I changed my shoes, and then drove south.
Up past the Blue Mountains, where
Pennsylvania humps on endlessly,
wearing, like a crayoned cat, its green hair,
its roads sunken in like a gray washboard;
where, in truth, the ground cracks evilly,
a dark socket from which the coal has poured,
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
the grass as bristly and stout as chives,
and me wondering when the ground would break,
and me wondering how anything fragile survives;
Up in Pennsylvania, I met a little man,
not Rumpelstiltskin, at all, at all...
he took the fullness that love began.
Returning north, even the sky grew thin
like a high window looking nowhere.
The road was as flat as a sheet of tin.
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Yes, woman, such logic will lead
to loss without death. Or say what you meant,
you coward... this baby that I bleed.
__________________________________________________________
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
Hey at least its not stupid fetal poetry,but 'someone should have been
born'?what the *****?If a person isnt even born, then how can they be
missed?The last part of this poem made no sense whatsoever.
.
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| User: "Ted Azito" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
03 Aug 2004 05:52:01 PM |
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Sense? You want SENSE from prolifers???
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| User: "Ted Azito" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
01 Aug 2004 09:51:41 PM |
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The Abortion
Anne Sexton
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
How do you know it _should_ have been born? Maybe it was a Downs baby
or maybe it would have been a spree killer or maybe it would have
produced 15 welfare babies by now.
.
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| User: "Shawn Hearn" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 10:32:19 PM |
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In article <b53da461.0408011851.2a76edb0@posting.google.com>,
(Ted Azito) wrote:
The Abortion
Anne Sexton
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
How do you know it _should_ have been born? Maybe it was a Downs baby
or maybe it would have been a spree killer or maybe it would have
produced 15 welfare babies by now.
Or perhaps the woman might have miscarried.
.
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| User: "Shawn Hearn" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
01 Aug 2004 07:27:44 PM |
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In article <bd9f1f6b.0408011405.30bafa04@posting.google.com>,
(papa jack) wrote:
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
I wonder how many adopted children Ms. Sexton raised.
.
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| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
01 Aug 2004 08:11:47 PM |
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Shawn Hearn wrote:
In article <bd9f1f6b.0408011405.30bafa04@posting.google.com>,
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
I wonder how many adopted children Ms. Sexton raised.
None, but she did give birth to two of her own. From the bios I've seen
on her, having children caused her to lose her mind and ultimately kill
herself.
.
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| User: "papa jack" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 06:29:32 AM |
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Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote
in message news:<410D950D.50E587CA@citlink.net>...
Shawn Hearn wrote:
In article <bd9f1f6b.0408011405.30bafa04@posting.google.com>,
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
==========================================================================
http://hurd.gnufans.org/ilse/lit/sexton.htm
The Abortion
Anne Sexton
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Just as the earth puckered its mouth,
each bud puffing out from its knot,
I changed my shoes, and then drove south.
Up past the Blue Mountains, where
Pennsylvania humps on endlessly,
wearing, like a crayoned cat, its green hair,
its roads sunken in like a gray washboard;
where, in truth, the ground cracks evilly,
a dark socket from which the coal has poured,
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
the grass as bristly and stout as chives,
and me wondering when the ground would break,
and me wondering how anything fragile survives;
Up in Pennsylvania, I met a little man,
not Rumpelstiltskin, at all, at all...
he took the fullness that love began.
Returning north, even the sky grew thin
like a high window looking nowhere.
The road was as flat as a sheet of tin.
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Yes, woman, such logic will lead
to loss without death. Or say what you meant,
you coward... this baby that I bleed.
__________________________________________________________
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
==========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
I wonder how many adopted children Ms. Sexton raised.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
None, but she did give birth to two of her own. From
the bios I've seen on her, having children caused her
to lose her mind and ultimately kill herself.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack added:
In psychiatry, there's a big difference between "caused"
and "precipitated -- particularly in dealing with those
afflicted with the more serious forms of depression.
Yes, Anne Sexton suffered from sever bouts with depression
which first showed up following the birth of her first
child. However, such illness is NOT "caused" by events.
Rather, clinical depression is caused by irregular blood
chemistry -- and is precipitated by certain events.
Despite her frequent bouts with depression, she put had
an impressive record of accomplishments, including:
The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
Pulitzer-prize for Live or Die (1966).
Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first woman
ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
Appointed a lecturer at Boston University, (1970)
Awarded a full professorship (1972).
I think that's notable for a woman who never attended college
and who had to deal with clinical depression throughout her
adult life.
.
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| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 01:38:30 PM |
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papa jack wrote:
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote
in message news:<410D950D.50E587CA@citlink.net>...
Shawn Hearn wrote:
In article <bd9f1f6b.0408011405.30bafa04@posting.google.com>,
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
==========================================================================
http://hurd.gnufans.org/ilse/lit/sexton.htm
The Abortion
Anne Sexton
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Just as the earth puckered its mouth,
each bud puffing out from its knot,
I changed my shoes, and then drove south.
Up past the Blue Mountains, where
Pennsylvania humps on endlessly,
wearing, like a crayoned cat, its green hair,
its roads sunken in like a gray washboard;
where, in truth, the ground cracks evilly,
a dark socket from which the coal has poured,
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
the grass as bristly and stout as chives,
and me wondering when the ground would break,
and me wondering how anything fragile survives;
Up in Pennsylvania, I met a little man,
not Rumpelstiltskin, at all, at all...
he took the fullness that love began.
Returning north, even the sky grew thin
like a high window looking nowhere.
The road was as flat as a sheet of tin.
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Yes, woman, such logic will lead
to loss without death. Or say what you meant,
you coward... this baby that I bleed.
__________________________________________________________
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
==========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
I wonder how many adopted children Ms. Sexton raised.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
None, but she did give birth to two of her own. From
the bios I've seen on her, having children caused her
to lose her mind and ultimately kill herself.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack added:
In psychiatry, there's a big difference between "caused"
and "precipitated -- particularly in dealing with those
afflicted with the more serious forms of depression.
Semantics?
In the English language, there isn't much of a difference at all.
Yes, Anne Sexton suffered from sever bouts with depression
which first showed up following the birth of her first
child. However, such illness is NOT "caused" by events.
Rather, clinical depression is caused by irregular blood
chemistry -- and is precipitated by certain events.
That implies that she would've become depressed and suicidal even if she
had not given birth. That's nothing more than speculation.
Despite her frequent bouts with depression, she put had
an impressive record of accomplishments, including:
The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
Pulitzer-prize for Live or Die (1966).
Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first woman
ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
Appointed a lecturer at Boston University, (1970)
Awarded a full professorship (1972).
Suicide (1974)
Writing poetry was actually suggested by her doctor, after her first
attempt to kill herself, as a means to help her deal with her
depression.
I think that's notable for a woman who never attended college
She attended Garland Junior College. Granted, she only attended for a
year before running off and getting married at age 19, but she DID
attend college.
and who had to deal with clinical depression throughout her
adult life.
While she was being treated for her depression, "precipitated" by
childbirth, she became pregnant again.
.
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| User: "papa jack" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 05:36:44 PM |
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Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote
in message news:<410E8A63.AF7ED117@citlink.net>...
papa jack wrote:
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote
in message news:<410D950D.50E587CA@citlink.net>...
Shawn Hearn wrote:
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
==========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
http://hurd.gnufans.org/ilse/lit/sexton.htm
The Abortion
Anne Sexton
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Just as the earth puckered its mouth,
each bud puffing out from its knot,
I changed my shoes, and then drove south.
Up past the Blue Mountains, where
Pennsylvania humps on endlessly,
wearing, like a crayoned cat, its green hair,
its roads sunken in like a gray washboard;
where, in truth, the ground cracks evilly,
a dark socket from which the coal has poured,
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
the grass as bristly and stout as chives,
and me wondering when the ground would break,
and me wondering how anything fragile survives;
Up in Pennsylvania, I met a little man,
not Rumpelstiltskin, at all, at all...
he took the fullness that love began.
Returning north, even the sky grew thin
like a high window looking nowhere.
The road was as flat as a sheet of tin.
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Yes, woman, such logic will lead
to loss without death. Or say what you meant,
you coward... this baby that I bleed.
__________________________________________________________
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
==========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
I wonder how many adopted children Ms. Sexton raised.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
None, but she did give birth to two of her own. From
the bios I've seen on her, having children caused her
to lose her mind and ultimately kill herself.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack added:
In psychiatry, there's a big difference between "caused"
and "precipitated -- particularly in dealing with those
afflicted with the more serious forms of depression.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
Semantics?
In the English language, there isn't much of a difference at all.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Frank, I'm trying to point out to you that your statement:
"...having children caused her to lose her mind
and ultimately kill herself."
is WRONG. If you don't mind being wrong, then okay.
Having children didn't CAUSE her to lose her mind.
Folks with clinical depressions have serious blood
chemical imbalances which will cause psychiatric
problems sooner or later. Childbirth is often a
precipitating event in the case of women.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
Yes, Anne Sexton suffered from sever bouts with depression
which first showed up following the birth of her first
child. However, such illness is NOT "caused" by events.
Rather, clinical depression is caused by irregular blood
chemistry -- and is precipitated by certain events.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
That implies that she would've become depressed and suicidal
even if she had not given birth. That's nothing more than
speculation.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
That's the opinion of most of the experts in the field.
So, what's your problem, Frank? Why do you care so much?
==========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
Despite her frequent bouts with depression, she put had
an impressive record of accomplishments, including:
The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
Pulitzer-prize for Live or Die (1966).
Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first woman
ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
Appointed a lecturer at Boston University, (1970)
Awarded a full professorship (1972).
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
Suicide (1974)
==========================================================================
Papa Jack nodded:
And, your point is?
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
Writing poetry was actually suggested by her doctor,
after her first attempt to kill herself, as a means
to help her deal with her depression.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
I think that's notable for a woman who never attended college
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
She attended Garland Junior College. Granted, she only attended for a
year before running off and getting married at age 19, but she DID
attend college.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack smiled:
I repeat:
* The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
* Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
* Pulitzer-prize for Live or Die (1966).
* Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first
woman ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
* Appointed a lecturer at Boston University, (1970)
* Awarded a full professorship (1972).
==========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
...and who had to deal with clinical depression
throughout her adult life.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
While she was being treated for her depression, "precipitated" by
childbirth, she became pregnant again.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
I'm not nominating Anne Sexton for sainthood, Frank.
Just looking at her poem on her Abortion and what it
might tell us.
I don't understand your dyspeptic attitude toward the
lady, Frank. Why are you trying so hard to put her
down?
.
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| User: "EvilZak" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
04 Aug 2004 02:46:52 AM |
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(papa jack) wrote in message news:<bd9f1f6b.0408021436.131dd3c3@posting.google.com>...
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
I'm not nominating Anne Sexton for sainthood, Frank.
Just looking at her poem on her Abortion and what it
might tell us.
Well, what it tells us is that this was HER experience and it appears
that the abortion in HER case was one she didn't want. No woman should
be coerced into an abortion any more than a woman should be coerced
into continuing a pregnancy. But that's a bit too complex for you to
get your stupid fat head round, isn;t it.
.
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| User: "Shawn Hearn" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 10:28:03 PM |
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In article <bd9f1f6b.0408021436.131dd3c3@posting.google.com>,
(papa jack) wrote:
is WRONG. If you don't mind being wrong, then okay.
Having children didn't CAUSE her to lose her mind.
Folks with clinical depressions have serious blood
chemical imbalances which will cause psychiatric
problems sooner or later. Childbirth is often a
precipitating event in the case of women.
True; however, such chemical imbalances can result
from pregnancy and existing imbalances can become
exaggerated by pregnancy. Just google on "postpartum
depression" for info.
.
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| User: "Bobs Boyfriend" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 11:25:13 PM |
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In article <srhi-D3BED6.23280302082004@news-40.giganews.com>,
Shawn Hearn <srhi@comcast.net> wrote:
In article <bd9f1f6b.0408021436.131dd3c3@posting.google.com>,
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
is WRONG. If you don't mind being wrong, then okay.
Having children didn't CAUSE her to lose her mind.
Folks with clinical depressions have serious blood
chemical imbalances which will cause psychiatric
problems sooner or later. Childbirth is often a
precipitating event in the case of women.
True; however, such chemical imbalances can result
from pregnancy and existing imbalances can become
exaggerated by pregnancy. Just google on "postpartum
depression" for info.
What a great way to absolve people for their actions -- medicalize it
and call it an "imbalance".
.
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| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 08:30:18 PM |
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papa jack wrote:
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote
in message news:<410E8A63.AF7ED117@citlink.net>...
papa jack wrote:
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote
in message news:<410D950D.50E587CA@citlink.net>...
Shawn Hearn wrote:
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
==========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
http://hurd.gnufans.org/ilse/lit/sexton.htm
The Abortion
Anne Sexton
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Just as the earth puckered its mouth,
each bud puffing out from its knot,
I changed my shoes, and then drove south.
Up past the Blue Mountains, where
Pennsylvania humps on endlessly,
wearing, like a crayoned cat, its green hair,
its roads sunken in like a gray washboard;
where, in truth, the ground cracks evilly,
a dark socket from which the coal has poured,
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
the grass as bristly and stout as chives,
and me wondering when the ground would break,
and me wondering how anything fragile survives;
Up in Pennsylvania, I met a little man,
not Rumpelstiltskin, at all, at all...
he took the fullness that love began.
Returning north, even the sky grew thin
like a high window looking nowhere.
The road was as flat as a sheet of tin.
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
Yes, woman, such logic will lead
to loss without death. Or say what you meant,
you coward... this baby that I bleed.
__________________________________________________________
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
==========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
I wonder how many adopted children Ms. Sexton raised.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
None, but she did give birth to two of her own. From
the bios I've seen on her, having children caused her
to lose her mind and ultimately kill herself.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack added:
In psychiatry, there's a big difference between "caused"
and "precipitated -- particularly in dealing with those
afflicted with the more serious forms of depression.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
Semantics?
In the English language, there isn't much of a difference at all.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Frank, I'm trying to point out to you that your statement:
"...having children caused her to lose her mind
and ultimately kill herself."
is WRONG.
Caused, precipitated, resulted in, led to. All the same.
If you don't mind being wrong, then okay.
Having children didn't CAUSE her to lose her mind.
Folks with clinical depressions...
All of them?
...have serious blood
chemical imbalances which will cause psychiatric
problems sooner or later. Childbirth is often a
precipitating event in the case of women.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
Yes, Anne Sexton suffered from sever bouts with depression
which first showed up following the birth of her first
child. However, such illness is NOT "caused" by events.
Rather, clinical depression is caused by irregular blood
chemistry -- and is precipitated by certain events.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
That implies that she would've become depressed and suicidal
even if she had not given birth. That's nothing more than
speculation.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
That's the opinion of most of the experts in the field.
So, what's your problem, Frank? Why do you care so much?
Because you seemed to offer her writings as some sort of authority on
the matter, when it is but the prose of a mentally ill, suicidal woman.
That giving birth is what "precipitated" her mental illness is quite
ironic.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
Despite her frequent bouts with depression, she put had
an impressive record of accomplishments, including:
The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
Pulitzer-prize for Live or Die (1966).
Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first woman
ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
Appointed a lecturer at Boston University, (1970)
Awarded a full professorship (1972).
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
Suicide (1974)
==========================================================================
Papa Jack nodded:
And, your point is?
Her accomplishments meant nothing to her.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
Writing poetry was actually suggested by her doctor,
after her first attempt to kill herself, as a means
to help her deal with her depression.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
I think that's notable for a woman who never attended college
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
She attended Garland Junior College. Granted, she only attended for a
year before running off and getting married at age 19, but she DID
attend college.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack smiled:
I repeat:
* The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
* Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
* Pulitzer-prize for Live or Die (1966).
* Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first
woman ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
* Appointed a lecturer at Boston University, (1970)
* Awarded a full professorship (1972).
But she wasn't a woman who never attended college.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
...and who had to deal with clinical depression
throughout her adult life.
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
While she was being treated for her depression, "precipitated" by
childbirth, she became pregnant again.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
I'm not nominating Anne Sexton for sainthood, Frank.
Just looking at her poem on her Abortion and what it
might tell us.
I don't understand your dyspeptic attitude toward the
lady, Frank. Why are you trying so hard to put her
down?
She did it to herself.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
01 Aug 2004 06:51:07 PM |
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The pro-liar thinks that bad fiction and bad poetry is supposed
to be some kind of argument from denying people their rights.
papa jackass <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
The Abortion
Anne Sexton
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
10,000+ people, mostly children, die of hunger each and every day.
The pro-liars pretend that they care about human lives, but the
truth is that they only care about control.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "papa jack" |
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| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 05:59:13 AM |
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rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote
in message news:<cejvlb$n7h$1@bolt.sonic.net>...
papa jack <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
========================================================================
Ray Fischer wrote:
The pro-liar thinks that bad fiction and bad poetry is supposed
to be some kind of argument from denying people their rights.
========================================================================
Papa Jack stated:
"Bad poetry?" Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry
in 1967 for "Live or Die."
Ray, the pro-deather, thinks he can DELETE what others post
and change reality with his childish DELETIONS.
========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
http://hurd.gnufans.org/ilse/lit/sexton.htm
The Abortion
Anne Sexton
Somebody who should have been born is gone.
:: Just as the earth puckered its mouth,
:: each bud puffing out from its knot,
:: I changed my shoes, and then drove south.
:: Up past the Blue Mountains, where
:: Pennsylvania humps on endlessly,
:: wearing, like a crayoned cat, its green hair,
:: its roads sunken in like a gray washboard;
:: where, in truth, the ground cracks evilly,
:: a dark socket from which the coal has poured,
:: Somebody who should have been born is gone.
:: the grass as bristly and stout as chives,
:: and me wondering when the ground would break,
:: and me wondering how anything fragile survives;
:: Up in Pennsylvania, I met a little man,
:: not Rumpelstiltskin, at all, at all...
:: he took the fullness that love began.
:: Returning north, even the sky grew thin
:: like a high window looking nowhere.
:: The road was as flat as a sheet of tin.
:: Somebody who should have been born is gone.
:: Yes, woman, such logic will lead
:: to loss without death. Or say what you meant,
:: you coward... this baby that I bleed.
========================================================================
Ray Fischer (pro-deather) wrote:
10,000+ people, mostly children, die of hunger each and every day.
The pro-liars pretend that they care about human lives, but the
truth is that they only care about control.
========================================================================
Papa Jack ROTFLMAO:
Ray, are you so desperate that you'd drag this stale old
chestnut out of the fire?
The truth is that YOU would grab food out of the hands
of starving children if you thought it would help the
abortion industry. You are the worst sort of hypocrite.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pavil Natanovich" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
03 Aug 2004 03:49:57 PM |
|
|
(papa jack) wrote in message news:<bd9f1f6b.0408020259.3f89d8ac@posting.google.com>...
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote
in message news:<cejvlb$n7h$1@bolt.sonic.net>...
papa jack < > wrote:
========================================================================
Ray Fischer wrote:
The pro-liar thinks that bad fiction and bad poetry is supposed
to be some kind of argument from denying people their rights.
========================================================================
Papa Jack stated:
"Bad poetry?" Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry
in 1967 for "Live or Die."
Ray, the pro-deather, thinks he can DELETE what others post
and change reality with his childish DELETIONS.
Eight hundred thousand children die each and every year from the
measles. The MEASLES. In the United States, on average, the death
toll from measles is one.
What this highlights is that an easily treatable disease lays waste to
nearly a million children every year, but we in the United States
cannot get sufficiently worked up about them to give a damn. Instead,
we have our attention focussed on UNWANTED embryonic tissue. The grim
reaper steals away children loved and wanted it other places around
the world where such plucking comes easy, and where no one can stand
with a placard to arouse a false sense of sympathy.
Measles isn't even the number one killer of children around the world.
It is away down the list.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 10:36:01 PM |
|
|
papa jackass <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote
The pro-liar thinks that bad fiction and bad poetry is supposed
to be some kind of argument from denying people their rights.
"Bad poetry?" Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry
in 1967 for "Live or Die."
You didn't quote that poem, Jackass. You quoted a crappy poem.
Ray, the pro-deather,
Jackass, who has tried to justify the murder of innocent children,
who defends and justifies war, tries to call other people "pro-death".
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
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|
| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
01 Aug 2004 08:05:26 PM |
|
|
papa jack wrote:
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
And she was mentally ill, addicted to alcohol and drugs, and ultimately
committed suicide in 1974.
So what?
.
|
|
|
| User: "David W. Barnes" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
01 Aug 2004 08:07:10 PM |
|
|
In article <410D9390.5B337906@citlink.net>, Frank Dwyer
<fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
papa jack wrote:
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
And she was mentally ill, addicted to alcohol and drugs, and ultimately
committed suicide in 1974.
So what?
LOL! Papa_Jack sees here as a person from which we should all receive
guidance.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
01 Aug 2004 08:15:22 PM |
|
|
"David W. Barnes" wrote:
In article <410D9390.5B337906@citlink.net>, Frank Dwyer
<fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
papa jack wrote:
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
And she was mentally ill, addicted to alcohol and drugs, and ultimately
committed suicide in 1974.
So what?
LOL! Papa_Jack sees here as a person from which we should all receive
guidance.
Having kids caused her to go insane and take her own life.
PJ should be careful what he wishes for.
.
|
|
|
| User: "The other Donald" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
01 Aug 2004 11:38:34 PM |
|
|
"Frank Dwyer" <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:410D95E4.D3DBA0A5@citlink.net...
"David W. Barnes" wrote:
In article <410D9390.5B337906@citlink.net>, Frank Dwyer
<fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
papa jack wrote:
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
And she was mentally ill, addicted to alcohol and drugs, and
ultimately
committed suicide in 1974.
So what?
LOL! Papa_Jack sees here as a person from which we should all receive
guidance.
Having kids caused her to go insane and take her own life.
PJ should be careful what he wishes for.
Maybe Susan Smith and Andrea Yates should have read Sexton's work.....
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
.
|
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|
| User: "David W. Barnes" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
01 Aug 2004 08:16:52 PM |
|
|
In article <410D95E4.D3DBA0A5@citlink.net>, Frank Dwyer
<fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
"David W. Barnes" wrote:
In article <410D9390.5B337906@citlink.net>, Frank Dwyer
<fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
papa jack wrote:
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
And she was mentally ill, addicted to alcohol and drugs, and ultimately
committed suicide in 1974.
So what?
LOL! Papa_Jack sees here as a person from which we should all receive
guidance.
Having kids caused her to go insane and take her own life.
PJ should be careful what he wishes for.
It only proves he just take propaganda where he can find it.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "papa jack" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 06:39:08 AM |
|
|
"David Barnes" <DumpBushInNovember@usa.com> wrote
in message news:<010820041807100692%DumpBushInNovember@usa.com>...
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
papa jack wrote:
==========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
==========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
And she was mentally ill, addicted to alcohol and drugs, and ultimately
committed suicide in 1974.
So what?
==========================================================================
David Barnes
LOL! Papa_Jack sees here as a person from which we should
all receive guidance.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Anne Sexton never attended college and had to cope with
sever clinical depression all her adult life. Despite
this, she had an impressive list of achievements:
The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
Pulitzer-prize "for Live or Die" (1966).
Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first woman
ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
Awarded a full professorship at Boston University (1972).
When a person is recognized by Harvard, Boston University, and
the British Royal Society of Literature; it just might indicate
they have something worthwhile to say.
.
|
|
|
| User: "EvilZak" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
04 Aug 2004 02:42:40 AM |
|
|
(papa jack) wrote in message news:<bd9f1f6b.0408020339.5a33553f@posting.google.com>...
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Anne Sexton never attended college and had to cope with
sever clinical depression all her adult life. Despite
this, she had an impressive list of achievements:
The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
Pulitzer-prize "for Live or Die" (1966).
Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first woman
ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
Awarded a full professorship at Boston University (1972).
When a person is recognized by Harvard, Boston University, and
the British Royal Society of Literature; it just might indicate
they have something worthwhile to say.
Not necessarily. Poetry is not that important to a lot of people and,
even to those who do enjoy it, they are not necessarily going to use
it as a basis for important decisions in their lives. Particularly
when the sort of poetry Anne Sexton wrote is about personal
experiences/opinions, to which she was fully entitled - but there's no
particular reason why anyone has to take them seriously.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Spartakus" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
02 Aug 2004 03:11:57 PM |
|
|
(papa jack) wrote...
"David Barnes" <DumpBushInNovember@usa.com> wrote...
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
papa jack wrote:
Anne Sexton won a Pulitzer Prize for poetry in
1967 for "Live or Die."
And she was mentally ill, addicted to alcohol and drugs, and ultimately
committed suicide in 1974.
So what?
LOL! Papa_Jack sees here as a person from which we should
all receive guidance.
Anne Sexton never attended college and had to cope with
sever clinical depression all her adult life. Despite
this, she had an impressive list of achievements:
The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
Pulitzer-prize "for Live or Die" (1966).
Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first woman
ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
Awarded a full professorship at Boston University (1972).
When a person is recognized by Harvard, Boston University, and
the British Royal Society of Literature; it just might indicate
they have something worthwhile to say.
Or that they say things in worthwhile ways. I have to give you props
on this one, PJ - this is the 1st poem on abortion I've seen with any
sort of literary merit.
It's worth noting that Ann Sexton wrote "The Abortion" in 1961, when
abortion was generally illegal - a furtive, shameful remedy for an
unwanted pregnancy. Sexton would have been 33 at the time - she could
have been writing from personal experience. She had already endured
serious episodes of post-partum depression after bearing each of her
two children. That's a tough road to follow for an already-depressed
individual.
.
|
|
|
| User: "papa jack" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
03 Aug 2004 06:53:14 PM |
|
|
spartakus@my-deja.com (Spartakus) wrote
in message news:<6ed74dfa.0408021211.18ff07d3@posting.google.com>...
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote...
"David Barnes" <DumpBushInNovember@usa.com> wrote...
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
papa jack wrote:
=========================================================================
[snip]
=========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Anne Sexton never attended college and had to cope with
sever clinical depression all her adult life. Despite
this, she had an impressive list of achievements:
The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
Pulitzer-prize "for Live or Die" (1966).
Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first woman
ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
Awarded a full professorship at Boston University (1972).
When a person is recognized by Harvard, Boston University, and
the British Royal Society of Literature; it just might indicate
they have something worthwhile to say.
=========================================================================
Spartakus wrote:
Or that they say things in worthwhile ways. I have to
give you props on this one, PJ - this is the 1st poem
on abortion I've seen with any sort of literary merit.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
I knew the "barbarians" would have difficulties, but I
posted it anyway with the hope there were a few educated
folks out there.
=========================================================================
Spartakus wrote:
It's worth noting that Ann Sexton wrote "The Abortion"
in 1961, when abortion was generally illegal - a furtive,
shameful remedy for an unwanted pregnancy....
=========================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
Have you been following the controversy over the "I Had An
Abortion" t-shirts from PP? Jennifer Baumgardner who
designed the t-shirts claims she's trying to confront the
continuing shame women feel about their abortions. But,
even Pro-Choice leaders in some areas are cringing over
the impact of these tasteless advertisements.
My point is that abortion may be legal -- but, to many
normal folks it's still "...a furtive, shameful remedy
for an unwanted pregnancy."
=========================================================================
Spartakus wrote:
...Sexton would
have been 33 at the time - she could have been writing
from personal experience. She had already endured
serious episodes of post-partum depression after
bearing each of her two children. That's a tough
road to follow for an already-depressed individual.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack agreed:
Yep, clinical depression is far more widespread than
most of us understand. OTOH, there are real improve-
ments in the treatments available.
Many of those we know from the history books had
either clinical depression or bipolar disorders.
For example, Lewis (of Lewis and Clark) fame came
from a family with a strong history of bipolar
disorders -- and he committed suicide at a time
when the whole world was praising him.
This presents one of the most difficult questions
of ethical and legal responsibility. When we know
these folks are often highly talented, but have
chemical imbalances which interfer with their normal
judgement and thoughts, how much moral and legal
liability should they suffer when they commit offen-
sive acts?
I wish I had a better answer than I do.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
03 Aug 2004 09:51:31 PM |
|
|
papa jack wrote:
spartakus@my-deja.com (Spartakus) wrote
in message news:<6ed74dfa.0408021211.18ff07d3@posting.google.com>...
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote...
"David Barnes" <DumpBushInNovember@usa.com> wrote...
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
papa jack wrote:
=========================================================================
[snip]
=========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Anne Sexton never attended college and had to cope with
sever clinical depression all her adult life. Despite
this, she had an impressive list of achievements:
The Audience Poetry Prize (1959).
Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in London (1965).
Pulitzer-prize "for Live or Die" (1966).
Awarded honorary Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard -- first woman
ever to join the 187-year-old chapter (1968).
Awarded a full professorship at Boston University (1972).
When a person is recognized by Harvard, Boston University, and
the British Royal Society of Literature; it just might indicate
they have something worthwhile to say.
=========================================================================
Spartakus wrote:
Or that they say things in worthwhile ways. I have to
give you props on this one, PJ - this is the 1st poem
on abortion I've seen with any sort of literary merit.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
I knew the "barbarians" would have difficulties, but I
posted it anyway with the hope there were a few educated
folks out there.
So anyone who disagrees with you is uneducated, huh? That's a prominent
trait of a condescending schmuck.
=========================================================================
Spartakus wrote:
It's worth noting that Ann Sexton wrote "The Abortion"
in 1961, when abortion was generally illegal - a furtive,
shameful remedy for an unwanted pregnancy....
=========================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
Have you been following the controversy over the "I Had An
Abortion" t-shirts from PP? Jennifer Baumgardner who
designed the t-shirts claims she's trying to confront the
continuing shame women feel about their abortions. But,
even Pro-Choice leaders in some areas are cringing over
the impact of these tasteless advertisements.
My point is that abortion may be legal -- but, to many
normal folks it's still "...a furtive, shameful remedy
for an unwanted pregnancy."
Then perhaps these... eh hem... "normal" folks shouldn't have one.
=========================================================================
Spartakus wrote:
...Sexton would
have been 33 at the time - she could have been writing
from personal experience. She had already endured
serious episodes of post-partum depression after
bearing each of her two children. That's a tough
road to follow for an already-depressed individual.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack agreed:
Yep, clinical depression is far more widespread than
most of us understand. OTOH, there are real improve-
ments in the treatments available.
Let me guess, you think ADHD is a very real, treatable medical condition
too, don't you?
Many of those we know from the history books had
either clinical depression or bipolar disorders.
For example, Lewis (of Lewis and Clark) fame came
from a family with a strong history of bipolar
disorders -- and he committed suicide at a time
when the whole world was praising him.
Are you certain of that? There are those who don't believe it was
suicide.
This presents one of the most difficult questions
of ethical and legal responsibility. When we know
these folks are often highly talented, but have
chemical imbalances which interfer with their normal
judgement and thoughts, how much moral and legal
liability should they suffer when they commit offen-
sive acts?
The exact same amount as anyone else... all of it.
I wish I had a better answer than I do.
I'm sure you do, but you always seem to wish you had a better answer
than accepting reality.
.
|
|
|
| User: "papa jack" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
04 Aug 2004 02:41:42 AM |
|
|
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote
in message news:<41104F71.7124C0C7@citlink.net>...
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
spartakus@my-deja.com (Spartakus) wrote:
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote...
"David Barnes" <DumpBushInNovember@usa.com> wrote...
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote...
=========================================================================
[snip]
=========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
Many of those we know from the history books had
either clinical depression or bipolar disorders.
For example, Lewis (of Lewis and Clark) fame came
from a family with a strong history of bipolar
disorders -- and he committed suicide at a time
when the whole world was praising him.
=========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
Are you certain of that? There are those who don't
believe it was suicide.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
That's generally true whenever famous men die violent
deaths. Look at how many still believe the Clintons
had Vince Foster killed. Go to:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/FOSTER_COVERUP/foster.html
Stephen Ambrose wrote the best seller _Undaunted Courage_
about the Lewis and Clark Expedition. He stated on page 467:
"There is a considerable literature on the
possibility that Lewis did not commit suicide
but was murdered. The first to put forth that
claim in any detail was Vardis Fisher. Dr.
Chuinard has more recently made the same asser-
tion. The literature is not convincing; the
detailed refutation by Paul Russell Cutright is." 9
{ 9. "Rest, Rest, Perturbed Spirit." We Proceed On,
Vol. 12, No.1, March 1986}
Ambrose gave a detailed account of how Lewis shot himself
twice (first in the head and second in the breast) and
then cut himself all over with a razor. He cites Jackson,
"Letters," vol II, p.574 and Alexander Wilson's interview
with Mrs. Grinder (who owned the house where Lewis died)
found in Elliot Coues' _The History of the Lewis and clark
Expedition_.
He also quoted President Jefferson's words in a short
biography of Lewis:
"...he did the deed whcih plunged his friends
into affliction and deprived his country of
one of her most valued citizens."
Before you start pointing your gnarled, accusing
finger, Frank, I'm well aware of the controversy
over Ambrose's failure to properly document quotes
from sources. For an article addressing this, go to:
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2062793&device=
=========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
This presents one of the most difficult questions
of ethical and legal responsibility. When we know
these folks are often highly talented, but have
chemical imbalances which interfer with their normal
judgement and thoughts, how much moral and legal
liability should they suffer when they commit offen-
sive acts?
=========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
The exact same amount as anyone else... all of it.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack remarks:
I'm glad for you that it's so easy to point fingers.
However, I have a problem with accountability for
people who are afflicted with significant mental
illnesses.
If a person had a virus which made him/her physically
ill, would we consider him/her lazy for wanting to
spend the day in bed rather than going to work? Most
of us would understand the person's inability to
perform "normal" functions while ill.
Now, compare the mentally ill person whose thoughts
and/or emotions are "scrambled" because of chemical
imbalances in their system. For example, folks with
bipolar disorders may swing from euphoria to deep
melancholy in a short time period -- and these strong
"moods" may have little or no relation to the reality
of the external events in their lives.
If a person's thoughts and/or emotions are actually
"scrambled" by blood chemistry imbalance, should we
hold them fully responsible for their actions?
=========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
I wish I had a better answer than I do.
=========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
I'm sure you do, but you always seem to wish you had a
better answer than accepting reality.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack asked:
Which reality, Frank? The one you and I see and experience,
or the altered "reality" perceived by the mentally ill person?
.
|
|
|
| User: "EvilZak" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
05 Aug 2004 01:26:05 AM |
|
|
(papa jack) wrote in message news:<bd9f1f6b.0408032341.597b9df0@posting.google.com>...
Papa Jack wrote:
This presents one of the most difficult questions
of ethical and legal responsibility. When we know
these folks are often highly talented, but have
chemical imbalances which interfer with their normal
judgement and thoughts, how much moral and legal
liability should they suffer when they commit offen-
sive acts?
=========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
The exact same amount as anyone else... all of it.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack remarks:
I'm glad for you that it's so easy to point fingers.
However, I have a problem with accountability for
people who are afflicted with significant mental
illnesses.
What, exactly are you advocating here? IN the UK, there is a defence
of "diminished responsiblity" when the balance of a person't mind is
disturbed, but that does not usually mean that a person who has
committed a serious crime is just let off with a pat on the head.
If a person had a virus which made him/her physically
ill, would we consider him/her lazy for wanting to
spend the day in bed rather than going to work? Most
of us would understand the person's inability to
perform "normal" functions while ill.
Now, compare the mentally ill person whose thoughts
and/or emotions are "scrambled" because of chemical
imbalances in their system. For example, folks with
bipolar disorders may swing from euphoria to deep
melancholy in a short time period -- and these strong
"moods" may have little or no relation to the reality
of the external events in their lives.
If a person's thoughts and/or emotions are actually
"scrambled" by blood chemistry imbalance, should we
hold them fully responsible for their actions?
Depends what the actions are. Well, if someone, for instance ,commits
suicide, you can hold them responsible, or not because they will be
dead and whatever you think or say or do will be as irrelevant as...
well... most of the rubbish you post on here is in the first place.
The trouble is that mental health care remains a very imprecise
science, with some people being labelled 'mentally ill' when they
simply don't share the prevailing opinions, and the treatment of
mental health problems is even more imprecise.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
|
| Title: Re: Ann Sexton: The Abortion |
04 Aug 2004 09:49:44 AM |
|
|
papa jack wrote:
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote
in message news:<41104F71.7124C0C7@citlink.net>...
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
spartakus@my-deja.com (Spartakus) wrote:
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote...
"David Barnes" <DumpBushInNovember@usa.com> wrote...
Frank Dwyer <fdwyer@citlink.net> wrote:
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote...
=========================================================================
[snip]
=========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
Many of those we know from the history books had
either clinical depression or bipolar disorders.
For example, Lewis (of Lewis and Clark) fame came
from a family with a strong history of bipolar
disorders -- and he committed suicide at a time
when the whole world was praising him.
=========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
Are you certain of that? There are those who don't
believe it was suicide.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
That's generally true whenever famous men die violent
deaths. Look at how many still believe the Clintons
had Vince Foster killed. Go to:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/FOSTER_COVERUP/foster.html
Stephen Ambrose wrote the best seller _Undaunted Courage_
about the Lewis and Clark Expedition. He stated on page 467:
"There is a considerable literature on the
possibility that Lewis did not commit suicide
but was murdered. The first to put forth that
claim in any detail was Vardis Fisher. Dr.
Chuinard has more recently made the same asser-
tion. The literature is not convincing; the
detailed refutation by Paul Russell Cutright is." 9
{ 9. "Rest, Rest, Perturbed Spirit." We Proceed On,
Vol. 12, No.1, March 1986}
Ambrose gave a detailed account of how Lewis shot himself
twice (first in the head and second in the breast) and
then cut himself all over with a razor. He cites Jackson,
"Letters," vol II, p.574 and Alexander Wilson's interview
with Mrs. Grinder (who owned the house where Lewis died)
found in Elliot Coues' _The History of the Lewis and clark
Expedition_.
He also quoted President Jefferson's words in a short
biography of Lewis:
"...he did the deed whcih plunged his friends
into affliction and deprived his country of
one of her most valued citizens."
Before you start pointing your gnarled, accusing
finger, Frank, I'm well aware of the controversy
over Ambrose's failure to properly document quotes
from sources. For an article addressing this, go to:
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2062793&device=
Before you start spewing your inflammatory, divisive vitriol, keep in
mind that all I said was "are you certain of that?"
From the multiple paragraphs you posted in an effort to avoid... I mean
answer that question, it's quite obvious that you AREN'T certain.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
This presents one of the most difficult questions
of ethical and legal responsibility. When we know
these folks are often highly talented, but have
chemical imbalances which interfer with their normal
judgement and thoughts, how much moral and legal
liability should they suffer when they commit offen-
sive acts?
=========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
The exact same amount as anyone else... all of it.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack remarks:
I'm glad for you that it's so easy to point fingers.
No finger pointing necessary. If you're an adult and you commit a crime,
I don't care what the reasons for it were. Accountability belongs to
all.
However, I have a problem with accountability for
people who are afflicted with significant mental
illnesses.
I have a problem with people who claim a "significant mental illness"
absolves them of accountability.
If the "illness" renders them unable to control their actions, then they
should be chained to the wall.
If a person had a virus which made him/her physically
ill, would we consider him/her lazy for wanting to
spend the day in bed rather than going to work? Most
of us would understand the person's inability to
perform "normal" functions while ill.
Is a cold a "significant mental illness"? If you have a cold, should you
not be held accountable if you shoot your neighbor?
"How do you plead?"
"Well, your Honor, I had the sniffles"
"Case dismissed"
Now, compare the mentally ill person whose thoughts
and/or emotions are "scrambled" because of chemical
imbalances in their system. For example, folks with
bipolar disorders may swing from euphoria to deep
melancholy in a short time period -- and these strong
"moods" may have little or no relation to the reality
of the external events in their lives.
If a person's thoughts and/or emotions are actually
"scrambled" by blood chemistry imbalance, should we
hold them fully responsible for their actions?
Yes.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
I wish I had a better answer than I do.
=========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
I'm sure you do, but you always seem to wish you had a
better answer than accepting reality.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack asked:
Which reality, Frank? The one you and I see and experience,
or the altered "reality" perceived by the mentally ill person?
The reality that people are responsible for their own actions.
.
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