Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote:

On 26 Jan 2006 05:56:47 -0800,

3. Every cell in a child's body contains the same DNA.

Normally fact.

Would you care to clarify that I might rephrase no 3 in a form that we
can agree on?

7. A fetus develops from a zygote which has a full set of paired
chromosomes.

Not an issue

8. A zygote is formed by the union of two haploid cells which each
possess a single set of unpaired chromosomes.

Not an issue.

I was listing facts prior to drawing any conclusions or inferences.

11. Medical staff performing the procedure to effect that interference
are protected against criminal prosecution for damage to the fetus or
the mother provided they comply with the law of the land regarding
abortions.

Belief. They cannot be prosecuted for performing an abortion but all
other medical standards apply.

Could you clarify what impact "other medical standards" have on
statement 11?

13. With the exception of China, no nation state forces a pregnant
woman to undergo an abortion.

Irrelevant. They do not where I live.

Again, I was simply listing facts prior to drawing any conclusions or
inferences. Until some inferences are made, how can anyone judge the
relevance of a statement?

14. Every abortion represents, barring accident or miscarriage, at
least one less person walking this earth.

Fact. So does every menstrual period.

Are you referring here to the loss during menstruation of a haploid
cell - the ovum, or a fertilised cell - the zygote?

Bryn

On 2006-01-25 03:24:54 -0800, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> said:

Dutch wrote:

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote

Dutch wrote:

I just wasted a couple days wrestling with a bunch of two-bit sophist
trolls
who inhabit this newsgroup. Now that I have most of them them tucked away
in
my killfile, are there any adults who are interested in having a serious,
adult discussion on some of the issues surrounding abortion?

I know exactly how you feel. This newsgroup is completely over-run by
some very childish people who have absolutely no respect for anyone
else and enjoy lying. I have tried relentlessly. I have lost all hope
that there is anyone in this newsgroup mature enough and capable of
handling a good discussion and still respecting differences.

I hope you have found that person in me. I promise not to screech "Liar" if
you disagree with me.

Great, it's refreshing. I think people do that because they have no
argument or they are not really serious in discussing the issue.

If you would like to discuss the issue, I would be more than happy to.

Great! I would classify myself as very reluctantly pro-choice. I am
absolutely of the belief that a fetus is a human being, I wish I didn't
think that way, but I can't help it.

Then we are on the same page. While I recognize that the law defines
person, I do believe and see the fetus as a human being. There is a
difference between person and human being.


It seems as plain as the sun in the

sky. Nonetheless I cannot bring myself to dictate to any woman how she can
or cannot deal with an unwanted pregnancy.

I agree. While I will always feel that abortion is morally wrong, it's
not my place or anyone elses place to tell a woman what she should do.
Now, if I am asked for my opinion I will state it.

I wish that people would stop

treating vaginal intercourse so casually so all these unwanted pregnancies
would stop, and I hope for every girl or woman who becomes "accidentally"
pregnant to realize what a mistake she has made, and face the fact that she
is carrying a human life inside her, not some undifferentiated tissue. If
she does so honestly and soberly and still would prefer to kill it than
face
the prospect of a pregnancy then no court of law should stand in her way.
Most of all I wish "guys", and I don't call them "men", because they act
like dogs, would keep their dicks under control and quit pressuring girls
and women to have vaginal penetration. I know this seems like I am confused
and conflicted, I am, and in the middle, with parts of both "camps" but I
can't be any other way. I agree with some of what Roe v Wade judges have to
say, but a lot of it seems like fuzzy quasi-political language aimed at
placating as many people as possible. I have had some personal and indirect
involvement with this issue years ago, but who hasn't? Where do you stand?

Abortion, in my opinion, is an act out of desperation. It's normally
done out of convenience.

Your wife had an abotion.

A woman can freely choose to walk away from
parenthood by simply paying someone to kill her unborn child.

Like your wife did.

She could
use any one of the following reasons to justify abortion. a) she is
not financially prepared, b) she doesn't want to be a mother, or c) she
has other plans in life and having a baby will only get in her way.

Or any other reason - the choice is hers.

Now, a man could have the same reasons for not wanting to have to raise
and/or support a child. The only choice he has is to either pay or go
to jail.

You feel it is wrong that the man has no other choice so you want to
force women to have no other choice. This is all about revenge for you.

My personal opinion, a man will step up to the plate and want
to raise his child and be a father.

Instead of going to jail. Is that why you "stepped up to the plate?"
Fear of jail?

I think that abortion is used as a birth control method and that's just
plain out wrong.

The only experience you have of this is your wife. Is that how she used it?

Our society has somehow gone morally bankrupt by
turning it's head and not valuing life.

In Iraq.

While I will never stand in a womans way, nor try to force her one way
or another; I will never give aid to a woman to have an abortion. I
would give aid to help her find a way to keep her child, if asked to do
so.

So you have adopted?

Abortion is not murder; however it is homicide in my opinion.

In my opinion a guard is a waste of the taxpayer's money.

It's
morally wrong.

In your morally bankrupt opinion.

Instead of bashing women though for having abortions, I think we should
work together in helping to educate our younger generation to not be so
irresponsible and to value life.

Start in your own back yard.

I believe in all forms of birth
control education, including abstinence.

Just not for you ;=)