Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly

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Topic:	Science > Abortion
User:	"Bill Case"
Date:	30 Sep 2004 01:52:33 PM
Object:	Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly

Fear of Flying by Russ Baker
Research support for this article was provided by the Investigative Fund of
the Nation Institute.
A new source has emerged with what she says is personal knowledge about why
George W. Bush prematurely left his Texas National Guard unit in
1972--because nerves, fear and a possible drinking problem were affecting
his ability to pilot his F-102A plane. If true, this information further
confirms a growing body of evidence that Bush has not been candid about his
departure from his unit. At various times the President and his
spokespersons have offered shifting rationales, from the planned eventual
mothballing of the F-102As, to his doctor's unavailability to give him a
flight physical, to a professional opportunity in another state.
However, Janet Linke of Jacksonville, Florida, says that it all came down to
an inability to perform. Linke is the widow of Jan Peter Linke, who was
brought into Bush's National Guard unit to replace him when Bush left the
unit and the state for Alabama in May 1972.
Linke says that Bush's now-deceased commanding officer in the Texas Air
National Guard's 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Lieut. Col. Jerry
Killian, confided in her and her husband during an encounter at a social
gathering as to the reasons Mr. Linke had been brought in to replace Bush.
"He said Bush was mucking up his flying very badly and he couldn't fly the
plane," Linke said. "Killan told us that he was having trouble landing, and
that possibly there was a drinking problem involved in that"--which Linke
took to mean a particularly debilitating one, since carousing was almost the
norm in such units.
Jan Peter Linke, a veteran Air Force pilot who was flying the same plane,
the F-102, for the Florida Air National Guard, was hired by Bush's superiors
to replace him in his Texas Air Guard unit. "They [Houston] were looking for
someone they didn't have to spend extra money training," recalled Linke.
Linke does not appear to have sought out journalists or publicity for what
she knows. She says she voted for Bush's father but that she had become
increasingly disturbed by what she regarded as the younger Bush's hypocrisy.
Frustrated by ads from "Swift Boat Veterans" that questioned Kerry's
military service, Linke visited the Duval County Democratic Party to pick up
a Kerry-Edwards lawn sign. While there, she made a remark about Bush's
flying record. Party officials encouraged her to tell her story to a local
alternative paper, Folio Weekly, which she did. Linke subsequently consented
to an interview with The Nation.
Notably, Linke's contact with Folio occurred before the White House's
lawsuit-generated release of Bush's flight logs, which appeared to
corroborate the thrust of her claims. Those logs show Bush in the winter and
early spring of 1972 having problems landing his plane and being placed into
two-pilot training planes--from which he had graduated years earlier.
Linke's account is crucial, because her husband was killed on August 21,
1973, in an automobile accident following drinks at the officers' club, when
his car went off a road. An official hard-bound album created for the Guard
unit's fiftieth anniversary in 1973 features a group shot of the 111th
Squadron in which Jan Peter Linke is pictured, but not Bush (the unit photo
was taken in December 1972).
Linke, who raised her son on military widow's benefits and worked as an art
teacher and arts coordinator in public and Episcopal schools before
suffering a stroke, was intensely private about personal matters, according
to those who knew her, and didn't often speak about her husband and his
tragic death. However, several people remember her mentioning her knowledge
of Bush's flying problems in the past. One, her fiancé, Delfino Dosio, said
the topic of her late husband's piloting work came up sometime after they
met five years ago, and that he recalls her mentioning several years ago his
replacing the faltering Bush. "[Bush] couldn't cut the mustard; he was
failing in his abilities to fly," Dosio remembered hearing. "They were going
to send him for retraining." A neighbor, Renee Soforenko, a real estate
entrepreneur, says she also recalls Linke mentioning the matter several
times over the past few years.
Sylvia Johnson, principal of West Jacksonville elementary school, where
Linke taught, is not familiar with the Bush material, but rated Linke
highly. "She was a wonderful, outstanding teacher, able to connect with
children in a way you rarely see." She said she didn't know about the
National Guard matter, but "I don't have any reason to doubt her honesty."
Linke says her husband first heard about the opening for a pilot in Bush's
unit on May 12, 1972. That date preceded Bush's recorded departure from his
base, suggesting that superiors were already planning to replace him. Bush's
last recorded flight came on April 16, 1972. Although his contractual
obligation to continue flying would not expire for another two years, Bush
would never fly again for the National Guard. In August 1972 Killian
suspended the departed Bush from flying, ostensibly for his failure to take
an annual physical exam. But Linke says that the physical was the result,
not the cause. "He just became afraid to fly," she said. "I don't believe he
was a coward. But he clearly had a problem flying one of these machines, and
a problem landing."
.

User: "Dallas Patterson"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	30 Sep 2004 04:10:11 PM

Bill Case wrote:

Fear of Flying by Russ Baker
Research support for this article was provided by the Investigative Fund of
the Nation Institute.

A new source has emerged with what she says is personal knowledge about why
George W. Bush prematurely left his Texas National Guard unit in
1972--because nerves, fear and a possible drinking problem were affecting
his ability to pilot his F-102A plane. If true, this information further
confirms a growing body of evidence that Bush has not been candid about his
departure from his unit. At various times the President and his
spokespersons have offered shifting rationales, from the planned eventual
mothballing of the F-102As, to his doctor's unavailability to give him a
flight physical, to a professional opportunity in another state.

However, Janet Linke of Jacksonville, Florida, says that it all came down to
an inability to perform. Linke is the widow of Jan Peter Linke, who was
brought into Bush's National Guard unit to replace him when Bush left the
unit and the state for Alabama in May 1972.

Linke says that Bush's now-deceased commanding officer in the Texas Air
National Guard's 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Lieut. Col. Jerry
Killian, confided in her and her husband during an encounter at a social
gathering as to the reasons Mr. Linke had been brought in to replace Bush.
"He said Bush was mucking up his flying very badly and he couldn't fly the
plane," Linke said. "Killan told us that he was having trouble landing, and
that possibly there was a drinking problem involved in that"--which Linke
took to mean a particularly debilitating one, since carousing was almost the
norm in such units.

Jan Peter Linke, a veteran Air Force pilot who was flying the same plane,
the F-102, for the Florida Air National Guard, was hired by Bush's superiors
to replace him in his Texas Air Guard unit. "They [Houston] were looking for
someone they didn't have to spend extra money training," recalled Linke.

Linke does not appear to have sought out journalists or publicity for what
she knows. She says she voted for Bush's father but that she had become
increasingly disturbed by what she regarded as the younger Bush's hypocrisy.
Frustrated by ads from "Swift Boat Veterans" that questioned Kerry's
military service, Linke visited the Duval County Democratic Party to pick up
a Kerry-Edwards lawn sign. While there, she made a remark about Bush's
flying record. Party officials encouraged her to tell her story to a local
alternative paper, Folio Weekly, which she did. Linke subsequently consented
to an interview with The Nation.

Notably, Linke's contact with Folio occurred before the White House's
lawsuit-generated release of Bush's flight logs, which appeared to
corroborate the thrust of her claims. Those logs show Bush in the winter and
early spring of 1972 having problems landing his plane and being placed into
two-pilot training planes--from which he had graduated years earlier.

Linke's account is crucial, because her husband was killed on August 21,
1973, in an automobile accident following drinks at the officers' club, when
his car went off a road. An official hard-bound album created for the Guard
unit's fiftieth anniversary in 1973 features a group shot of the 111th
Squadron in which Jan Peter Linke is pictured, but not Bush (the unit photo
was taken in December 1972).

Linke, who raised her son on military widow's benefits and worked as an art
teacher and arts coordinator in public and Episcopal schools before
suffering a stroke, was intensely private about personal matters, according
to those who knew her, and didn't often speak about her husband and his
tragic death. However, several people remember her mentioning her knowledge
of Bush's flying problems in the past. One, her fiancé, Delfino Dosio, said
the topic of her late husband's piloting work came up sometime after they
met five years ago, and that he recalls her mentioning several years ago his
replacing the faltering Bush. "[Bush] couldn't cut the mustard; he was
failing in his abilities to fly," Dosio remembered hearing. "They were going
to send him for retraining." A neighbor, Renee Soforenko, a real estate
entrepreneur, says she also recalls Linke mentioning the matter several
times over the past few years.

Sylvia Johnson, principal of West Jacksonville elementary school, where
Linke taught, is not familiar with the Bush material, but rated Linke
highly. "She was a wonderful, outstanding teacher, able to connect with
children in a way you rarely see." She said she didn't know about the
National Guard matter, but "I don't have any reason to doubt her honesty."

Linke says her husband first heard about the opening for a pilot in Bush's
unit on May 12, 1972. That date preceded Bush's recorded departure from his
base, suggesting that superiors were already planning to replace him. Bush's
last recorded flight came on April 16, 1972. Although his contractual
obligation to continue flying would not expire for another two years, Bush
would never fly again for the National Guard. In August 1972 Killian
suspended the departed Bush from flying, ostensibly for his failure to take
an annual physical exam. But Linke says that the physical was the result,
not the cause. "He just became afraid to fly," she said. "I don't believe he
was a coward. But he clearly had a problem flying one of these machines, and
a problem landing."

This is a prime example of the hysterical efforts by the Democrats to
invent forgeries and other fraudulent hearsay testimonies to defame
President Bush just before the election. We can all know this is yet
another fraud put forth by the Democrats, because there was no reason to
hire another common F-102A pilot at a time when there were all ready too
many such F-102A pilots in the squadron. The squadron had already begun
to ferry most of its F-102A Delta Dagger fighter-interceptors out to
Davis-Monthan for storage as the F-101 Voodoo was coming in as the
replacement aircraft for the F-102A. The few remaining F-102A
fighter-interceptors in the 111th FIS were inadequate in number to
provide the squadron's F-102A rated pilots enough flying hours in the
F-102A to maintain their F102A pilot ratings. The last thing the 111th
FIS needed in May--December 1972 was yet another surplus F-102A pilot.
What the 111th FIS did need were F-102A Instructor pilots with more than
1,000 flying hours in the F-102A and F-101 Instructor pilots with more
than 1,000 flying hours in the F-101. To satisfy this need for qualified
Instructor Pilots, the 111th FIS needed to vacate the pilot positions
of pilots like 1LTBush, who did not have the required 1,000 hours of
lfight ime in the F-102A and/or F-101. The only way the 111th FIS could
vacate those positions and make them available to new Instructor Pilots
was to find ways of trasferring its youngest F-102A pilots, like 1LT
Bush, to other units or obtaining permission to separate them from the
service at an early date.
Another telltale sign of the fraudulent nature of the story is the
obvious misrepresentation of Bush's use of the squadron's training
aircraft and the ridiculously false claims Bush was having troubles with
landing his aircraft.
Every squadron pilot is REQUIRED to log flight hours in ALL of the
squadron's aircraft types, including the T-33. The T-33 wasw used by
each squadron as a utility, general purpose training, and transport
shuttle aircraft. Furthermore, whenever flying hours on a squadron's
budget and schedule precluded the use of the squadron's primary aircraft
type at a given point in time, the squadron's pilots were REQUIRED to
use the T-33 or other squadron utility aircraft to log their mandatory
flight hours. Consequently, Bush's flights in the T-33 or other training
or utility aircraft at a time when there was a critical shortage of
available F-102A flying hours is to be expected and entirely routine.
The stories claiming Bush couldn't land his aircraft are obvious frauds
for many reasons. Foremost among those reasons is the fact that Bush and
all of the other fighter pilots were required to routinely log a number
of flying hours while practicing touch and go landings and missed
approach procedures. The documents cited in the news reports are the
routine records demonstrating Bush, like all of his contemorary fighter
pilots, was complying with the routine flight requirements. The
Democrats have chosen to take the documentary reports of these routine
procedures and attempt to falsely represent them as something sinister
in their increasingly hysterical attempts to defame President Bush.
This even more evident when you note the ridiculous error in the story's
statement, "They were going to send him for retraining." The 111th FIS
couldn't "send him for retraining", because the 111th FIS was the only
place where such training was done and where Bush was trained to fly the
F-102A to begin with. Whoever invented the lie obviously knew nothing
whatsoever about such training. This is again evident in the attempts to
denigrate Bush for piloting a two-seat training aircraft like the
TF-102A. The reason the 111th FIS was one of the last F-102A squadrons
was because its mission was to use the TF-102A two-seat training
aircraft to train pilots and give trained F-102A pilots additional
flying hours as the inventory of F-102A aircraft was reduced to only two
remaining in the squadron. Bush was required to pilot the TF-102A
trainer, so long as he remained on flight status with the F-111th FIS.
When the number of F-102A and TF-102 aircraft were reduced, the squadron
needed F-102A Instructor Pilots (IP), but they did not need an F-102A
pilot like Bush, who was too young to have logged the 1,000 hours of
F-102A flying hours required to qualify as an F-102A Instructor Pilot
(IP) for the new training mission of the 111th FIS.
Like the recent CBS News forgeries, the latest news story is a
pathetically obvious fraud.
.

User: "Bill Case"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	01 Oct 2004 01:52:46 PM

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415C7633.60800@fidalgo.net...

This is a prime example of the hysterical efforts by the Democrats to
invent forgeries

Nah, and you're just lying again Patterson. That magazine has been published
since the Civil War and they give plenty of names and places for checking on
the contributors.
The CBS forged document's content was all true and never denied by the White
House. It expressed what Bush's CO thought of him (so says the Colonel's
secretary) but it was a forged recount.
.

User: "Dallas Patterson"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	01 Oct 2004 04:57:24 PM

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415C7633.60800@fidalgo.net...

This is a prime example of the hysterical efforts by the Democrats to
invent forgeries

Nah, and you're just lying again Patterson. That magazine has been published
since the Civil War and they give plenty of names and places for checking on
the contributors.

You are not qualified to judge anyone's veracity. The magazine is
publishing fraudulent hearsay statements from a dead man who cannot be
interviewed for corroboration. I know from first-hand experience a lot
more about the issue than the magazine does, notwithstanding the
fraudulent hearsay statements.

The CBS forged document's content was all true and never denied by the White
House. It expressed what Bush's CO thought of him (so says the Colonel's
secretary) but it was a forged recount.

Your comment demonstrates your ignorance and studied mendacity. The
woman was not LTC Killian's personal secretary. She was a pool secretary
who did not have access to the confidential documents handled by LTC
Killian's personal secretary, and LTC Killian's family and subordinate
officers have refuted the secretary's statements. The CBS documents are
forgeries and fraudulent statements, and the secretary's statements are
disputed and refuted by credible sources.
Until you can demonstrate to us that 1LT Bush had accumulated or could
accumulate 1,000 flying hours in the F-102A and qualify as an F-102A or
F-101 Instructor Pilot (IP) while serving in the 111th FIS on or before
May 1972, you will have no evidence whatsoever that Bush shirked his
duties after that date.
.

User: "Bill Case"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	01 Oct 2004 05:33:31 PM

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415DD2C4.2050709@fidalgo.net...

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415C7633.60800@fidalgo.net...

This is a prime example of the hysterical efforts by the Democrats to
invent forgeries

Nah, and you're just lying again Patterson. That magazine has been
published since the Civil War and they give plenty of names and places
for checking on the contributors.

I'm in the position to know you lie quite a bit.
A couple months ago you posted a bunch of info that you said proved Bush did
not fail in his Air Guard responsibilities.
I challenged you to sign a legal affidavit to that effect and use it to
against journalist claiming Bush went AWOL from the Guard.
You backed out of that quickly. You constantly post things in here as though
they are decisive info, and it turns out to be just plain crap, or out of
context info, that you purport to be decisive.
You don't have any credibility.
As for the Colonel's secretary, I saw interviews of the lady and she
appeared quite competent and to have been very familiar with the Bush's
CO's opinions of him. So, again, you are lying.
This current Nation article is consistent with a lot of info coming in from
different sources about junior Bush.
For people interested, here are some links regarding Bush and Kerry. Judge
for yourselves.
http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=7073&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got%20in
http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/8/4/0311/48764/6#6
.

User: "Dallas Patterson"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	02 Oct 2004 03:51:34 AM

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415DD2C4.2050709@fidalgo.net...

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415C7633.60800@fidalgo.net...

This is a prime example of the hysterical efforts by the Democrats to
invent forgeries

Nah, and you're just lying again Patterson. That magazine has been
published since the Civil War and they give plenty of names and places
for checking on the contributors.

I'm in the position to know you lie quite a bit.

Your comment demonstrates it is yourself who is lacking in credulity, or
as you say, "you lie quite a bit."

A couple months ago you posted a bunch of info that you said proved Bush did
not fail in his Air Guard responsibilities.

No, that is not what I said. What I said was that anyone who has the
elementary facility to count and do the most simple arithmetic can see
for themselves that Bush was three years younger than Kerry and
therefore incapable of receiving a combat assignment as a fighter pilot
with the required minimum of 500 flying hours before the air forces were
withdrawn from Vietnam no matter which branch of service he chose to
volunteer for in 1968. In 1968, the Air National Guard squadron which
Bush volunteered to join was sending pilots to serve in combat in
Vietnam. In 1968, no one, not Bush or his commanders, could know that
John Forbes Kerry would years later abandon his comrades and his combat
tour eight months early to lend his support in the anti-war effort to
cause the United States to withdraw its air forces before 1LT Bush was
old enough to accumulate the 500 hjours flying time required to qualify
for a combat tour in Vietnam. Consequently, simple arithmetic anyone
having a first grade or earlier elementary level of education can
compute for themselves the fact that Bush could not have joined the Air
National Guard to avoid a combat assignment in Vietnam. If Bush had
enlisted in the U.S. Navy in 1968 and somehow received an assignment as
a naval fighter pilot, he had virtually no chance whatsoever of logging
enough flying hours to qualify for a combat assignment in Vietnam before
Kerry and the anti-war movement caused the withdrawal of the naval air
forces from Vietnam. No one needs to evaluate my credibility or anyone
else's credibility, because the simple arithmetic demonstrates Bush was
not going to qualify for a combat assignment in Vietnam before the
American withdrawal no matter which active duty branch he joined to
serve as a fighter pilot. Consequently, the allegations that Bush's
enlistment in the Air National Guard instead of the active duty Regular
Navy or Regular Air Force is an obvious lie and fraud.

I challenged you to sign a legal affidavit to that effect and use it to
against journalist claiming Bush went AWOL from the Guard.

Yes, you did. It is simply amazing to watch you engage in such (let's be
diplomatic about it) bizarre behavior.

You backed out of that quickly. You constantly post things in here as though
they are decisive info, and it turns out to be just plain crap, or out of
context info, that you purport to be decisive.

That wasn't backing out of anything. That was a sane and rational person
avoiding you as you engaged in less than sane and rational behavior.
That was also a problem with maintaining access to the newsservers from
the road. It is also another example of where you claim I said something
which you said and I didn't. You said it was decisive, and I said
several times before that you said it was decisive and I said it was a
matter of simple arithmetic. If you want to argue with yourself, be my
guest; but leave me out of it and stop making false attributions to me,
and stop misrepresenting my statements.

You don't have any credibility.

That's your allegation, and we all know how much esteem and faith we
place in your credibiity.

As for the Colonel's secretary, I saw interviews of the lady and she
appeared quite competent and to have been very familiar with the Bush's
CO's opinions of him. So, again, you are lying.

Take it up with LTC Killian's son, family, and former colleagues, who
made the statements. I reported to you what they said, so I'm not
telling any lies by openly reporting what they said. If you think they
are liars, you take it up with them, and not with me. Furthermore, your
viewing an interview with the secretary on a television show hardly
proves anyone is a liar, except perhaps yourself.

This current Nation article is consistent with a lot of info coming in from
different sources about junior Bush.

For people interested, here are some links regarding Bush and Kerry. Judge
for yourselves.

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=7073&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got%20in

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/8/4/0311/48764/6#6

All of which demonstrates the reasons why we must conclude you and your
allegations are incredible.
.

User: "Bill Case"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	02 Oct 2004 01:02:31 PM

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415E6C16.9000009@fidalgo.net...

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415DD2C4.2050709@fidalgo.net...

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415C7633.60800@fidalgo.net...

This is a prime example of the hysterical efforts by the Democrats to
invent forgeries

Nah, and you're just lying again Patterson. That magazine has been
published since the Civil War and they give plenty of names and places
for checking on the contributors.

I'm in the position to know you lie quite a bit.

Your comment demonstrates it is yourself who is lacking in credulity, or
as you say, "you lie quite a bit."

A couple months ago you posted a bunch of info that you said proved Bush
did not fail in his Air Guard responsibilities.

No, that is not what I said. What I said was that anyone who has the
elementary facility to count and do the most simple arithmetic can see for
themselves that Bush was three years younger than Kerry and therefore
incapable of receiving a combat assignment as a fighter pilot with the
required minimum of 500 flying hours before the air forces were withdrawn
from Vietnam no matter which branch of service he chose to volunteer for
in 1968. In 1968, the Air National Guard squadron which Bush volunteered
to join was sending pilots to serve in combat in Vietnam. In 1968, no one,
not Bush or his commanders, could know that John Forbes Kerry would years
later abandon his comrades and his combat tour eight months early to lend
his support in the anti-war effort to cause the United States to withdraw
its air forces before 1LT Bush was old enough to accumulate the 500 hjours
flying time required to qualify for a combat tour in Vietnam.
Consequently, simple arithmetic anyone having a first grade or earlier
elementary level of education can compute for themselves the fact that
Bush could not have joined the Air National Guard to avoid a combat
assignment in Vietnam. If Bush had enlisted in the U.S. Navy in 1968 and
somehow received an assignment as a naval fighter pilot, he had virtually
no chance whatsoever of logging enough flying hours to qualify for a
combat assignment in Vietnam before Kerry and the anti-war movement caused
the withdrawal of the naval air forces from Vietnam. No one needs to
evaluate my credibility or anyone else's credibility, because the simple
arithmetic demonstrates Bush was not going to qualify for a combat
assignment in Vietnam before the American withdrawal no matter which
active duty branch he joined to serve as a fighter pilot. Consequently,
the allegations that Bush's enlistment in the Air National Guard instead
of the active duty Regular Navy or Regular Air Force is an obvious lie and
fraud.

I challenged you to sign a legal affidavit to that effect and use it to
against journalist claiming Bush went AWOL from the Guard.

Yes, you did. It is simply amazing to watch you engage in such (let's be
diplomatic about it) bizarre behavior.

You backed out of that quickly. You constantly post things in here as
though they are decisive info, and it turns out to be just plain crap, or
out of context info, that you purport to be decisive.

That wasn't backing out of anything. That was a sane and rational person
avoiding you as you engaged in less than sane and rational behavior. That
was also a problem with maintaining access to the newsservers from the
road. It is also another example of where you claim I said something which
you said and I didn't. You said it was decisive, and I said several times
before that you said it was decisive and I said it was a matter of simple
arithmetic. If you want to argue with yourself, be my guest; but leave me
out of it and stop making false attributions to me, and stop
misrepresenting my statements.

You don't have any credibility.

That's your allegation, and we all know how much esteem and faith we place
in your credibiity.

As for the Colonel's secretary, I saw interviews of the lady and she
appeared quite competent and to have been very familiar with the Bush's
CO's opinions of him. So, again, you are lying.

Take it up with LTC Killian's son, family, and former colleagues, who made
the statements. I reported to you what they said, so I'm not telling any
lies by openly reporting what they said. If you think they are liars, you
take it up with them, and not with me. Furthermore, your viewing an
interview with the secretary on a television show hardly proves anyone is
a liar, except perhaps yourself.

This current Nation article is consistent with a lot of info coming in
from different sources about junior Bush.

For people interested, here are some links regarding Bush and Kerry.
Judge for yourselves.

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=7073&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got%20in

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/8/4/0311/48764/6#6

All of which demonstrates the reasons why we must conclude you and your
allegations are incredible.

Sure Dallas, sure. You have previously made all sorts of claims that
supposedly "prove" Bush didn't fail in his military responsibilities. These
included factors involving F 102's, and incredibly, Bush's age.
All of them are non-credible to the point of being foolish.
This story in the Nation, that I posted, DOES have credibility.
Additionally, the recent scandal involving CBS reporting on the forged memo
of Bush's Guard CO, was revealing in that it was proved a forgery NOT BY
IT'S CONTENT, WHICH WAS NEVER REFUTED, but by technical factors of print
type, spacing etc.
Usually, when such condemnatory forgeries appear, the first thing under
contention is the CONTENT, then later the technical factors, but not in the
CBS case. In fact, Bush's CO's secretary, verified the content as being what
the CO thought of Bush.
Following is a USA article on the subject from
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-09-14-memos-forgeries_x.htm
Posted 9/14/2004 10:17 PM 2004 ELECTION
Secretary: Memos are forgeries
By Jim Drinkard and Dave Moniz, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON - The former secretary to a Texas Air National Guard officer who
purportedly wrote memos critical of President Bush's pilot service said
Tuesday that the documents are forgeries but they appear to reflect memos
her boss wrote and kept in a locked desk drawer.
Marian Carr Knox told the Dallas Morning News after viewing copies of the
disputed memos, "These are not real," and that "the information in here was
correct, but it was picked up from the real ones." She declined to be
interviewed late Tuesday, but her son, Pat Carr, confirmed her comments.
The newspaper said that Knox, 86, had precise recollection about dates,
people and events. She was critical of Bush, whom she called "unfit for
office."
The memos, first reported last week by CBS' 60 Minutes and obtained
independently by USA TODAY, were critical of Bush's performance as a pilot.
They say he sought special treatment to get out of required drills and
failed to get a required physical exam, and that there was pressure from his
commander's superiors to "sugar coat" his personnel evaluation. Document
experts have challenged their authenticity.
Knox told the Morning News that she did all of the typing for Lt. Col. Jerry
Killian, Bush's commander, and she did not type the memos in question. The
typewriters she used, a manual Olympia and later an IBM Selectric, could not
have produced the documents, she said.
Another former Texas National Guard officer, Richard Via, also said that the
documents were fakes but that their content reflected questions about Bush
that were discussed at the time in the hangar at Ellington Air Force Base,
where he had a desk next to Killian's.
Via said he and others he worked with "remember the physical, and him going
to Alabama was an issue." He said Killian "made notes and put them in his
files about things like that."
Killian kept the files because "he was trying to cover his *****," Via said.
"He was always worried something would come back on him."
He said Killian's secretary "would type them up, and he'd put it in his desk
drawer and lock it."
First lady Laura Bush told an Iowa radio station Monday that the memos
"probably are forgeries, and I think that's terrible, really." White House
spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters Tuesday that despite those
comments, the White House has taken no position on whether the documents are
fake.
.

User: "Dallas Patterson"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	03 Oct 2004 02:36:14 AM

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415E6C16.9000009@fidalgo.net...

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415DD2C4.2050709@fidalgo.net...

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415C7633.60800@fidalgo.net...

This is a prime example of the hysterical efforts by the Democrats to
invent forgeries

Nah, and you're just lying again Patterson. That magazine has been
published since the Civil War and they give plenty of names and places
for checking on the contributors.

I'm in the position to know you lie quite a bit.

Your comment demonstrates it is yourself who is lacking in credulity, or
as you say, "you lie quite a bit."

A couple months ago you posted a bunch of info that you said proved Bush
did not fail in his Air Guard responsibilities.

No, that is not what I said. What I said was that anyone who has the
elementary facility to count and do the most simple arithmetic can see for
themselves that Bush was three years younger than Kerry and therefore
incapable of receiving a combat assignment as a fighter pilot with the
required minimum of 500 flying hours before the air forces were withdrawn
from Vietnam no matter which branch of service he chose to volunteer for
in 1968. In 1968, the Air National Guard squadron which Bush volunteered
to join was sending pilots to serve in combat in Vietnam. In 1968, no one,
not Bush or his commanders, could know that John Forbes Kerry would years
later abandon his comrades and his combat tour eight months early to lend
his support in the anti-war effort to cause the United States to withdraw
its air forces before 1LT Bush was old enough to accumulate the 500 hjours
flying time required to qualify for a combat tour in Vietnam.
Consequently, simple arithmetic anyone having a first grade or earlier
elementary level of education can compute for themselves the fact that
Bush could not have joined the Air National Guard to avoid a combat
assignment in Vietnam. If Bush had enlisted in the U.S. Navy in 1968 and
somehow received an assignment as a naval fighter pilot, he had virtually
no chance whatsoever of logging enough flying hours to qualify for a
combat assignment in Vietnam before Kerry and the anti-war movement caused
the withdrawal of the naval air forces from Vietnam. No one needs to
evaluate my credibility or anyone else's credibility, because the simple
arithmetic demonstrates Bush was not going to qualify for a combat
assignment in Vietnam before the American withdrawal no matter which
active duty branch he joined to serve as a fighter pilot. Consequently,
the allegations that Bush's enlistment in the Air National Guard instead
of the active duty Regular Navy or Regular Air Force is an obvious lie and
fraud.

I challenged you to sign a legal affidavit to that effect and use it to
against journalist claiming Bush went AWOL from the Guard.

Yes, you did. It is simply amazing to watch you engage in such (let's be
diplomatic about it) bizarre behavior.

You backed out of that quickly. You constantly post things in here as
though they are decisive info, and it turns out to be just plain crap, or
out of context info, that you purport to be decisive.

That wasn't backing out of anything. That was a sane and rational person
avoiding you as you engaged in less than sane and rational behavior. That
was also a problem with maintaining access to the newsservers from the
road. It is also another example of where you claim I said something which
you said and I didn't. You said it was decisive, and I said several times
before that you said it was decisive and I said it was a matter of simple
arithmetic. If you want to argue with yourself, be my guest; but leave me
out of it and stop making false attributions to me, and stop
misrepresenting my statements.

You don't have any credibility.

That's your allegation, and we all know how much esteem and faith we place
in your credibiity.

As for the Colonel's secretary, I saw interviews of the lady and she
appeared quite competent and to have been very familiar with the Bush's
CO's opinions of him. So, again, you are lying.

Take it up with LTC Killian's son, family, and former colleagues, who made
the statements. I reported to you what they said, so I'm not telling any
lies by openly reporting what they said. If you think they are liars, you
take it up with them, and not with me. Furthermore, your viewing an
interview with the secretary on a television show hardly proves anyone is
a liar, except perhaps yourself.

This current Nation article is consistent with a lot of info coming in
from different sources about junior Bush.

For people interested, here are some links regarding Bush and Kerry.
Judge for yourselves.

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=7073&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got%20in

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/8/4/0311/48764/6#6

All of which demonstrates the reasons why we must conclude you and your
allegations are incredible.

Yet, you keep evading and making baseless denials about the key issue
which makes all of the back and forth arguing about Bush's conduct
irrelevant. The key issue is how Democrats, such as Michael Moore and
the Chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), have alleged
Bush enlisted in the Air National Guard to avoid a combat assignment in
Vietnam. Since these Democrats and you have made that allegation against
the reputation of President Bush, it is their obligation and your
obligation to meet the burden of proof by a preponderance of the
evidence in support of your allegation. You cannot possibly meet the
burden of proof by a preponderance of the evidence in support of your
allegation, until you present us with verifiable U.S. Government
documents which demonstrate that fifty percent or more of all fighter
pilots in the U.S. armed forces or any branch of the armed forces who
were born in 1946 or a later year received combat assignments in Vietnam
in the period from 1968 to 1972. I have seen no such evidence from you
or anyone else, and I know from personal experience no such evidence is
remotely likely to exist, because I knew and worked with those fighter
pilots. Based on my personal experience, I would be very surprised to
discover the number of such fighter pilots born in or after 1946
amounting to more than one percent or a dozen or so out of the many
thousands of fighter pilots serving from 1968 to 1972.
If Bush was never going to be eligible to receive a combat assignment in
Vietnam as a fighter pilot in the active duty Air Force or the active
duty Navy, then his enlistment as a fighter pilot in the Air National
Guard in 1968 did not keep him from receiving a combat assignment in
Vietnam any more than commissioning as a fighter pilot in the active
duty branches would have done so. Bush simply wasn't eligible for a
combat assignment in vietnam no matter what he did or did not do as a
fighter pilot.

All of them are non-credible to the point of being foolish.

The foolishness is obviously yours when you deny such obvious facts as
simple arithmetic. 1972 minus 1946 equals age 26, and age 26 equals less
than fifty percent of the fighter pilots and likely very much less than
one percent of the fighter pilots receiving combat assignments in
Vietnam. The arithmetic is simple enough for a first-grade elementary
school student. If you insist upon persisting in your foolishness, we
will be compelled to conclude the arithmetic is too difficult for you to
comprehend.

This story in the Nation, that I posted, DOES have credibility.

Additionally, the recent scandal involving CBS reporting on the forged memo
of Bush's Guard CO, was revealing in that it was proved a forgery NOT BY
IT'S CONTENT, WHICH WAS NEVER REFUTED, but by technical factors of print
type, spacing etc.

Usually, when such condemnatory forgeries appear, the first thing under
contention is the CONTENT, then later the technical factors, but not in the
CBS case. In fact, Bush's CO's secretary, verified the content as being what
the CO thought of Bush.

Following is a USA article on the subject from
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-09-14-memos-forgeries_x.htm

Posted 9/14/2004 10:17 PM 2004 ELECTION

Secretary: Memos are forgeries
By Jim Drinkard and Dave Moniz, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON - The former secretary to a Texas Air National Guard officer who
purportedly wrote memos critical of President Bush's pilot service said
Tuesday that the documents are forgeries but they appear to reflect memos
her boss wrote and kept in a locked desk drawer.
Marian Carr Knox told the Dallas Morning News after viewing copies of the
disputed memos, "These are not real," and that "the information in here was
correct, but it was picked up from the real ones." She declined to be
interviewed late Tuesday, but her son, Pat Carr, confirmed her comments.

The newspaper said that Knox, 86, had precise recollection about dates,
people and events. She was critical of Bush, whom she called "unfit for
office."

The memos, first reported last week by CBS' 60 Minutes and obtained
independently by USA TODAY, were critical of Bush's performance as a pilot.
They say he sought special treatment to get out of required drills and
failed to get a required physical exam, and that there was pressure from his
commander's superiors to "sugar coat" his personnel evaluation. Document
experts have challenged their authenticity.

Knox told the Morning News that she did all of the typing for Lt. Col. Jerry
Killian, Bush's commander, and she did not type the memos in question. The
typewriters she used, a manual Olympia and later an IBM Selectric, could not
have produced the documents, she said.

Another former Texas National Guard officer, Richard Via, also said that the
documents were fakes but that their content reflected questions about Bush
that were discussed at the time in the hangar at Ellington Air Force Base,
where he had a desk next to Killian's.

Via said he and others he worked with "remember the physical, and him going
to Alabama was an issue." He said Killian "made notes and put them in his
files about things like that."

Killian kept the files because "he was trying to cover his *****," Via said.
"He was always worried something would come back on him."

He said Killian's secretary "would type them up, and he'd put it in his desk
drawer and lock it."

First lady Laura Bush told an Iowa radio station Monday that the memos
"probably are forgeries, and I think that's terrible, really." White House
spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters Tuesday that despite those
comments, the White House has taken no position on whether the documents are
fake.

Such reports are just as fake and fraudulent as the paper the forgeries
were printed upon at Kinkos. Furthermore, all of the paper trails seem
to lead back to...guess where...that's right...officials and members of
the Travis County, Texas Democratic Party...see:
[QUOTE]
Rush Limbaugh Show...The Truth Detector...Why Dan Rather's Out to Get
Bush...September 16, 2004...Last night, on the Fox News Channel, Gary
Killian appeared on Hannity & Colmes, and he had a couple of interesting
things to say about Marian Knox, the secretary who's got the most
amazing memory. In a recent article she said she didn't remember
anything about that period. Now she remembers typing memos that said the
same thing that Rather's forged memos said! In previous incantations she
said (paraphrasing), "Ah, I don't remember much of what went on there,
except I do remember that the sons of privileged got special treatment,"
blah, blah, blah, blah...She also said yesterday in the Washington Post
that, "Bush is unfit to serve, selected not elected."
I'm telling you, all roads point to Travis County, Texas, Travis County
Democrat Party -- where, by the way, Bill Burkett's lawyer was chairman
of the Travis County Democrat Party....
KILLIAN: Marian Carr is a sweet lady. I've known her since I was six
years old. It's been represented that she was my father's personal
secretary. That's not true. She really was directed to do typing for any
officer within the operations area. Her primary responsibility was to
support the group commander, and she just wouldn't have had that
information or that insight.
[UNQUOTE]
Marian Carr Knox has earlier testified to knowing nothing and now
testified to knowing something. Was she testifying falsely when she said
she knew nothing, or was she testifying falsely when she testified to
knowing something? Either way, her credibility is irretrievably
compromised, because it is quite impossible for her to have testified
truthfully on both occassions.
Finally, I saw no testimony from Marian Carr Knox which testified to the
existence of documents that demonstrate fifty percent or more of the
American fighter pilots received combat assignments in Vietnam. When you
find such evidence, why don't you take your own advice and present the
evidence to the news media in an affidavit. In the meantime, if you
persist in publishing the defamatory allegations without such evidence,
I and other people will simply find it necessary to dismiss you and your
fallacious allegations as the actions of a conspiracy nutcase or worse.
.

User: "Drew Nicholson"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	03 Oct 2004 07:52:30 AM

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415FABEE.8070205@fidalgo.net...

You're quoting Rush Limbaugh, and expect us to take that as FACT???
Dallas, you're a funny person.
--
Drew
----
"We have flown the air like birds and swum the sea like fishes, but have yet
to learn the simple act of walking the earth like brothers." -- Martin
Luther King, Jr.
.

User: "Bill Case"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	03 Oct 2004 11:41:44 AM

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415FABEE.8070205@fidalgo.net...

Dallas,
In your reply, you try to shift the topic from the validity of the
allegations re. Bush shirking his Guard duties, to whether he was trying to
avoid combat by joining the Guard in the first place.
It is clear Bush did both. All the evidence is that BUSH DID SHIRK HIS AIR
GUARD MILITARY RESPONSIBILITES.
As for joining in order to avoid combat - anybody of military age during the
Vietnam war knew that joining the Guard was a way to avoid combat. In
addition, Bush even noted on his application he did not want to serve
overseas.
For people interested, here are some links regarding Bush and Kerry. Judge
for yourselves.
http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=7073&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got%20in
http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/8/4/0311/48764/6#6
.

User: "Ian MacLure"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	04 Oct 2004 12:01:23 AM

"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in
news:cZV7d.1641$UP1.1256@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415FABEE.8070205@fidalgo.net...

Well, neither has any validity so who cares.

It is clear Bush did both. All the evidence is that BUSH DID SHIRK HIS
AIR GUARD MILITARY RESPONSIBILITES.

All the evidence the DNC can forge anyhow.
Unfortunately the DNC don't seem to be very bright.

As for joining in order to avoid combat - anybody of military age
during the Vietnam war knew that joining the Guard was a way to avoid

Sez you. Got any proof for that?

combat. In addition, Bush even noted on his application he did not
want to serve overseas.

No, he noted he was not volunteering for an overseas posting.
Could have been a required entry for ANG pilots.

For people interested, here are some links regarding Bush and Kerry.
Judge for yourselves.

None of which have any credibility as they are Trotskerry shill sites.
Face it Headcase your boy si going down hard.
Try not to lose it when he does.
IBM
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

.

User: "Dallas Patterson"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	03 Oct 2004 03:39:32 PM

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415FABEE.8070205@fidalgo.net...

Dallas,
In your reply, you try to shift the topic from the validity of the
allegations re. Bush shirking his Guard duties, to whether he was trying to
avoid combat by joining the Guard in the first place.

No, it is you who has been trying to evade the responses to the original
allegations made by the Democratis National Committee and Michael Moore,
where they alleged Bush enlisted in the Air National Guard to avoid
combat in Vietnam. Their allegations claim Bush shirked his duties and
should have been put on active duty and sent into combat in Vietnam.
They allege Bush used his connections to keep from being put on active
duty where he would be sent to Vietnam. We know these allegations from
the Democrats are all a pack of lies, because it was never possible for
such events to have occurred. The American air forces were no longer
participating in combat in Vietnam by the time Bush would have been
eligible to receive a combat assignment in Vietnam, no matter what
branch of service he served in as a fighter pilot. Consequently, the
allegations of avoiding combat in Vietnam are an obvious lie and fraud.

It is clear Bush did both. All the evidence is that BUSH DID SHIRK HIS AIR
GUARD MILITARY RESPONSIBILITES.

That is the allegation, but there is no proof to support the
allegations. Instead, there is proof that Bush was a surplus pilot whom
the squadron needed to replace with an Instructor Pilot for the
squadron's new mission. Allegations to the contrary seem to be
suspiciously emanating principally from the Democratic Party officials
and members in Travis County, Texas in the form of forged documents and
false testimonies of Democrats.

As for joining in order to avoid combat - anybody of military age during the
Vietnam war knew that joining the Guard was a way to avoid combat. In
addition, Bush even noted on his application he did not want to serve
overseas.

The notation on the application form is meaningless. Everyone with any
experience knows you filled out the form as the recruiting officer
instructed you to fill it out to best qualify for the selection board's
requirements.
Since Bush volunteered to be a fighter pilot in one of the few Air
National Guard squadrons in 1968 which was sending pilots to combat
assignments in Vietnam, his enlistment was certainly not avoiding a
combat assignment in vietnam no matter what anyone else was doing and no
matter what box was checked on an application form.
[QUOTE]
Lt. Col. Michael D. Doubler...Against the recommendations of his top
advisors, the president refused to mobilize the reserve components.
Johnson had no desire to provoke a major war in Southeast Asia, and
calling out the Guard and the Reserves, he believed, might escalate the war.
In the end, Johnson fought the war primarily with active forces and
draftees. Largely denied the opportunity to serve in Vietnam, many
individual Guardsmen volunteered. About 2,000 Army Guard volunteers
fought in Vietnam, half of them officers. In all, they provided
distinguished service, and 23 were killed.
Loopholes in the draft laws had a profound affect on the National Guard.
Numerous educational and professional deferments permitted young men to
evade the draft. Anyone entering the Guard could avoid the draft but had
to serve for six years. As the war dragged on, young men increasingly
sought Guard service. By the end of the war, many Americans considered
the Guard a haven for draft dodgers.
On Jan. 23, 1968, North Korea seized the Navy reconnaissance vessel USS
Pueblo and took the crew hostage. Eight days later, the North Vietnamese
launched the Tet Offensive, a massive effort to defeat American and
South Vietnamese forces. The Tet Offensive surprised U.S. commanders,
and additional troops were rushed to Vietnam. On April 11, Johnson
ordered 24,500 National Guardsmen and Reservists to active duty.
On May 13, 1968, 13,633 Army Guardsmen reported to their armories. Two
Army Guard infantry brigades were mobilized; Hawaii's 29th and Kansas's
69th.
Though the brigades never deployed, 4,000 Guardsmen from their ranks
volunteered for Vietnam. Thirty-one combat-support and combat-service
support units served on various Army posts for extended active duty.
Eight Army Guard units went to Southeast Asia. Alabama's 650th Medical
Detachment was the first unit to reach Vietnam. The only Army Guard
ground-maneuver unit sent to Vietnam was Indiana's Company D (Ranger),
151st Infantry. On Dec. 12th, 1969, the last mobilized Army Guardsman
returned home. In all, more than 9,000 Army Guard soldiers served in
Vietnam.
Air National Guard units began flying supply missions to Vietnam in 1965
and participated in the 1968 callup. In total, 9,343 Air Guardsmen were
mobilized for Vietnam. Eleven squadrons entered active duty, including
one aeromedical airservice group and two tactical fighter groups.
Two fighter squadrons - Ohio's 166th and Kansas' 127th - deployed to
South Korea in light of the Pueblo crisis. Four tactical fighter
squadrons deployed to Vietnam; Colorado's 120th, Iowa's 174th, New
Mexico's 188th and New York's 136th. The Air Force's 355th Tactical
Fighter Squadron drew 85 percent of its personnel from Air Guard
volunteers from New Jersey and District of Columbia. Guard pilots in
Vietnam flew nearly 30,000 sorties while amassing 50,000 combat hours,
and five were killed in action.
http://www.ngaus.org/ngmagazine/guardcentury1960to1980-1299.asp
[UNQUOTE]
So, your comments claiming an enlistment in the Air National Guard to
become a fighter pilot in 1968 was somehow an effort avoid a combat
assignment in Vietnam is a fraud and slander against the Air National
Guard and the National Guard. "Guard pilots in Vietnam flew nearly
30,000 sorties while amassing 50,000 combat hours, and five were killed
in action." COL Campenni wrote, "Finally, the Kerrys, Moores and
McAuliffes are casting a terrible slander on those who served in the
Guard, then and now."

For people interested, here are some links regarding Bush and Kerry. Judge
for yourselves.

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=7073&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got%20in

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/8/4/0311/48764/6#6

[QUOTE]
George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter
Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG) from 1970 to
1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders (Maj. William
Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased). While we were not
part of the same social circle outside the base, we were in the same
fraternity of fighter pilots, and proudly wore the same squadron patch.
It is quite frustrating to hear the daily cacophony from the left and
Sen. John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, et al., about Lt. Bush escaping
his military responsibilities by hiding in the Texas ANG. In the Air
Guard during the Vietnam War, you were always subject to call-up, as
many Air National Guardsmen are finding out today. If the 111th FIS and
Lt. Bush did not go to Vietnam, blame President Johnson and Secretary of
Defense Robert S. McNamara, not lowly Lt. Bush. They deliberately
avoided use of the Guard and Reserves for domestic political
calculations, knowing that a draftee only stirred up the concerns of one
family, while a call-up got a whole community's attention.
The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th FIS,
Texas ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air defense. It
was focused on defending the continental United States from Soviet
nuclear bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and would have been
useless in Vietnam. A pilot program using ANG volunteer pilots in F-102s
(called Palace Alert) was scrapped quickly after the airplane proved to
be unsuitable to the war effort. Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about
this program but was advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell,
retired) that he did not have the desired experience (500 hours) at the
time and that the program was winding down and not accepting more
volunteers.
If you check the 111th FIS records of 1970-72 and any other ANG
squadron, you will find other pilots excused for career obligations and
conflicts. The Bush excusal in 1972 was further facilitated by a change
in the unit's mission, from an operational fighter squadron to a
training squadron with a new airplane, the F-101, which required that
more pilots be available for full-time instructor duty rather than
part-time traditional reservists with outside employment.
The winding down of the Vietnam War in 1971 provided a flood of exiting
active-duty pilots for these instructor jobs, making part-timers like
Lt. Bush and me somewhat superfluous. There was a huge glut of pilots in
the Air Force in 1972, and with no cockpits available to put them in,
many were shoved into nonflying desk jobs. Any pilot could have left the
Air Force or the Air Guard with ease after 1972 before his commitment
was up because there just wasn't room for all of them anymore.
Sadly, few of today's partisan pundits know anything about the
environment of service in the Reserves in the 1970s. The image of a
reservist at that time is of one who joined, went off for six months'
basic training, then came back and drilled weekly or monthly at home,
with two weeks of "summer camp." With the knowledge that Mr. Johnson and
Mr. McNamara were not going to call out the Reserves, it did become a
place of refuge for many wanting to avoid Vietnam.
There was one big exception to this abusive use of the Guard to avoid
the draft, and that was for those who wanted to fly, as pilots or crew
members. Because of the training required, signing up for this duty
meant up to 2½ years of active duty for training alone, plus a high
probability of mobilization. A fighter-pilot candidate selected by the
Guard (such as Lt. Bush and me) would be spending the next two years on
active duty going through basic training (six weeks), flight training
(one year), survival training (two weeks) and combat crew training for
his aircraft (six to nine months), followed by local checkout (up to
three more months) before he was even deemed combat-ready. Because the
draft was just two years, you sure weren't getting out of duty being an
Air Guard pilot. If the unit to which you were going back was an F-100,
you were mobilized for Vietnam. Avoiding service? Yeah, tell that to
those guys.
The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation at
any time or place, in Vietnam or at home, when they say other such
pilots were risking their lives or even dying while Lt. Bush was in
Texas. Our Texas ANG unit lost several planes right there in Houston
during Lt. Bush's tenure, with fatalities. Just strapping on one of
those obsolescing F-102s was risking one's life.
Critics such as Mr. Kerry (who served in Vietnam, you know), Terry
McAuliffe and Michael Moore (neither of whom served anywhere) say Lt.
Bush abandoned his assignment as a jet fighter pilot without explanation
or authorization and was AWOL from the Alabama Air Guard.
Well, as for abandoning his assignment, this is untrue. Lt. Bush was
excused for a period to take employment in Florida for a congressman and
later in Alabama for a Senate campaign.
Excusals for employment were common then and are now in the Air Guard,
as pilots frequently are in career transitions, and most commanders (as
I later was) are flexible in letting their charges take care of career
affairs until they return or transfer to another unit near their new
employment. Sometimes they will transfer temporarily to another unit to
keep them on the active list until they can return home. The receiving
unit often has little use for a transitory member, especially in a
high-skills category like a pilot, because those slots usually are
filled and, if not filled, would require extensive conversion training
of up to six months, an unlikely option for a temporary hire.
As a commander, I would put such "visitors" in some minor administrative
post until they went back home. There even were a few instances when I
was unaware that they were on my roster because the paperwork often
lagged. Today, I can't even recall their names. If a Lt. Bush came into
my unit to "pull drills" for a couple of months, I wouldn't be too
involved with him because I would have a lot more important things on my
table keeping the unit combat ready.
Another frequent charge is that, as a member of the Texas ANG, Lt. Bush
twice ignored or disobeyed lawful orders, first by refusing to report
for a required physical in the year when drug testing first became part
of the exam, and second by failing to report for duty at the
disciplinary unit in Colorado to which he had been ordered. Well, here
are the facts:
First, there is no instance of Lt. Bush disobeying lawful orders in
reporting for a physical, as none would be given. Pilots are scheduled
for their annual flight physicals in their birth month during that
month's weekend drill assembly -- the only time the clinic is open. In
the Reserves, it is not uncommon to miss this deadline by a month or so
for a variety of reasons: The clinic is closed that month for special
training; the individual is out of town on civilian business; etc.
If so, the pilot is grounded temporarily until he completes the
physical. Also, the formal drug testing program was not instituted by
the Air Force until the 1980s and is done randomly by lot, not as a
special part of a flight physical, when one easily could abstain from
drug use because of its date certain. Blood work is done, but to ensure
a healthy pilot, not confront a drug user.
Second, there was no such thing as a "disciplinary unit in Colorado" to
which Lt. Bush had been ordered. The Air Reserve Personnel Center in
Denver is a repository of the paperwork for those no longer assigned to
a specific unit, such as retirees and transferees. Mine is there now, so
I guess I'm "being disciplined." These "disciplinary units" just don't
exist. Any discipline, if required, is handled within the local
squadron, group or wing, administratively or judicially. Had there been
such an infraction or court-martial action, there would be a record and
a reflection in Lt. Bush's performance review and personnel folder. None
exists, as was confirmed in The Washington Post in 2000.
Finally, the Kerrys, Moores and McAuliffes are casting a terrible
slander on those who served in the Guard, then and now. My Guard career
parallels Lt. Bush's, except that I stayed on for 33 years. As a
guardsman, I even got to serve in two campaigns. In the Cold War, the
air defense of the United States was borne primarily by the Air National
Guard, by such people as Lt. Bush and me and a lot of others. Six of
those with whom I served in those years never made their 30th birthdays
because they died in crashes flying air-defense missions.
While most of America was sleeping and Mr. Kerry was playing antiwar
games with Hanoi Jane Fonda, we were answering 3 a.m. scrambles for who
knows what inbound threat over the Canadian subarctic, the cold North
Atlantic and the shark-filled Gulf of Mexico. We were the pathfinders in
showing that the Guard and Reserves could become reliable members of the
first team in the total force, so proudly evidenced today in Afghanistan
and Iraq.
It didn't happen by accident. It happened because back at the nadir of
Guard fortunes in the early '70s, a lot of volunteer guardsman showed
they were ready and able to accept the responsibilities of soldier and
citizen -- then and now. Lt. Bush was a kid whose congressman father
encouraged him to serve in the Air National Guard. We served proudly in
the Guard. Would that Mr. Kerry encourage his children and the children
of his colleague senators and congressmen to serve now in the Guard.
In the fighter-pilot world, we have a phrase we use when things are
starting to get out of hand and it's time to stop and reset before
disaster strikes. We say, "Knock it off." So, Mr. Kerry and your friends
who want to slander the Guard: Knock it off.
COL. WILLIAM CAMPENNI (retired)
U.S. Air Force/Air National Guard
Herndon, Va.5
[UNQUOTE]
I will concede it is "theoretically possible" Bush avoided the draft by
enlisting with the 111th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air
National Guard IF AND WHEN you ever present verifiable U.S. Government
documents which demonstrate fifty percent or more of all American
fighter pilots born in 1946 or later received combat assignments in
Vietnam. Until such time as you do so, your allegations and the
allegations of the Democrats are nothing more than the lies and frauds
of conspircay nutcases and/or partisan slanderers.
.

User: "Bill Case"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	04 Oct 2004 10:56:00 AM

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:41606384.4060206@fidalgo.net...

Bill Case wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:415FABEE.8070205@fidalgo.net...

Dallas,
In your reply, you try to shift the topic from the validity of the
allegations re. Bush shirking his Guard duties, to whether he was trying
to avoid combat by joining the Guard in the first place.

No, it is you who has been trying to evade the responses to the original
allegations made by the Democratis National Committee and Michael Moore,
where they alleged Bush enlisted in the Air National Guard to avoid combat
in Vietnam. Their allegations claim Bush shirked his duties and should
have been put on active duty and sent into combat in Vietnam. They allege
Bush used his connections to keep from being put on active duty where he
would be sent to Vietnam. We know these allegations from the Democrats are
all a pack of lies, because it was never possible for such events to have
occurred. The American air forces were no longer participating in combat
in Vietnam by the time Bush would have been eligible to receive a combat
assignment in Vietnam, no matter what branch of service he served in as a
fighter pilot. Consequently, the allegations of avoiding combat in Vietnam
are an obvious lie and fraud.

It is clear Bush did both. All the evidence is that BUSH DID SHIRK HIS
AIR GUARD MILITARY RESPONSIBILITES.

That is the allegation, but there is no proof to support the allegations.
Instead, there is proof that Bush was a surplus pilot whom the squadron
needed to replace with an Instructor Pilot for the squadron's new mission.
Allegations to the contrary seem to be suspiciously emanating principally
from the Democratic Party officials and members in Travis County, Texas in
the form of forged documents and false testimonies of Democrats.

As for joining in order to avoid combat - anybody of military age during
the Vietnam war knew that joining the Guard was a way to avoid combat. In
addition, Bush even noted on his application he did not want to serve
overseas.

Hahahahaahahya. What nonsense.

Since Bush volunteered to be a fighter pilot in one of the few Air
National Guard squadrons in 1968 which was sending pilots to combat
assignments in Vietnam, his enlistment was certainly not avoiding a combat
assignment in vietnam no matter what anyone else was doing and no matter
what box was checked on an application form.

Bush could have joined the regulars and gone to VN just like Kerry did -
instead he used family connections to get a safe spot in the Natl Guard.
1994 Bush quote regarding evading Vietnam war service:
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in
order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I
chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes," Bush told an
interviewer in Houston. "
Dallas,
If you actually have decisive facts and logic that disproves the widespread
knowledge that Bush used family connections to get into the Guard ahead of
other applicants, and then did not fulfill his military duties, make a
legal affidavit of such. I'll do what I can to get it publicized and used to
confront and impeach journalists who are stating that Bush did those things.
You must believe these journalists are damaging our political system by what
you say are lies that you have expert knowledge concerning, so why not go
after them?
Now, when can we expect to see this affidavit? And, why did you not generate
one concerning the supposedly decisive F102 information you previously made
claims about in the newsgroups (appx. 2 months ago)?
Until then, people might want to take a look at the following websites re.
Bush and Kerry

For people interested, here are some links regarding Bush and Kerry.
Judge
for yourselves.

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=7073&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#got%20in

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/8/4/0311/48764/6#6

User: "Dallas Patterson"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	04 Oct 2004 12:04:31 PM

Bill Case wrote:
[...]

Bush could have joined the regulars and gone to VN just like Kerry did -
instead he used family connections to get a safe spot in the Natl Guard.

No, that is a lie. Kerry did not enlist in the Regular Navy. Kerry
enlisted to become a weekend warrior in the Ready Reserve of the U.S.
Navy, exactly the way in which Bush enlisted in the Ready Reserve of the
U.S. Air Force. Kerry enlisted in the U.S. Navy Reserve, a Ready Reserve
branch of the U.S. Navy; and Bush enlisted in the Texas Air National
Guard, a Ready Reserve branch of the U.S. Air Force. If Bush had
followed in Kerry's footsteps by enlisting in the U.S. Navy Reserve and
requesting the exact same duty in the PCF boats, he would never have
gone to Vietnam, because he was three years younger than Kerry. By the
time Bush could have completed his naval training in the PCF boats, the
PCF crews were already being withdrawn from Vietnam by 1970,
transferring the boats to the South Vietnamese Navy.
As I have written many times before, if Bush had volunteered to join the
Regular Air Force, the Regular Navy, or the Regual Marine Corps and
received an assignment as a fighter pilot, he was too young to log the
minimum 500 flying hours in a fighter aircraft required to qualify for a
combat assignment in Vietnam until months or years after the U.S.
withdrew the last of its air forces from Vietnam in 1972-1973.
So, it does not matter whether or not Bush used his family connections
to get into the Air National Guard, because doing so did nothing to
change his ineligibility to receive a combat assignment in Vietnam as a
fighter pilot or an OIC of a PCF Boat in the Coastal Squadrons. Bush was
simply too young to qualify for those positions before the U.S.
withdrawal from Vietnam.

1994 Bush quote regarding evading Vietnam war service:

"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in
order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I
chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes," Bush told an
interviewer in Houston. "

[...]
This statement you are so fond of misquoting out of context was a
jocular reference to the fact Bush was unwilling to evade his obligation
for military service. It certainly does not equate to evading a combat
assignment is you gleefully like to falsely portray. Especially when you
consider the fact that Bush flew armed combat sorties in the F-102A on
air combat missions for the Air Defense Command.
.

User: "Drew Nicholson"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	04 Oct 2004 12:24:43 PM

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:4161829F.6060504@fidalgo.net...

I thought Kerry applied to the Reserves, and was turned down, so he then
enlisted in the Navy.

This statement you are so fond of misquoting out of context was a
jocular reference to the fact Bush was unwilling to evade his obligation
for military service. It certainly does not equate to evading a combat
assignment is you gleefully like to falsely portray. Especially when you
consider the fact that Bush flew armed combat sorties in the F-102A on
air combat missions for the Air Defense Command.

What, over Texas?
--
Drew
----
Honey stored by bees for themselves alone can serve no other. (The Cuckoo)
.

User: "Dallas Patterson"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	04 Oct 2004 01:38:32 PM

Drew Nicholson wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:4161829F.6060504@fidalgo.net...

I thought Kerry applied to the Reserves, and was turned down, so he then
enlisted in the Navy.

No, the Kerry campaign likes to mislead people and encourage people to
make such erroneous conclusions. Kerry's biography on his campaign
Website says he joined the Navy and omits the fact it was actually the
Navy Reserve. It is only when someone knows how to do a search to
uncover Kerry's military records on his Website, which is not easy to do
from his Website links, that you find he was commissioned in the U.S.
Navy Reserve. Kerry's service in Vietnam was pursuant to his naval
reserve obligation for three years of active duty for training before
returning for two years of Active Reserve duty, one year of Standy
Reserve duty, and seven years of Inactive Reserve obligation. By
contrast, Bush was obligated to about two and one-half years of active
duty for training and four years of Active Reseve duty. If Bush had been
born about six years earlier, he would have had a good chance of being
selected as one of the F-102A pilots from the 111th FIS TANG for a U.S.
Air Force combat assignment in Vietnam in the PALACE ALERT program.

What, over Texas?

No, over the Gulf of Mexico, the Alantic Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, the
Canadian Arctic, and the Arctic Sea. When called upon by Air Defense
Command, the squadron's aircraft and pilots could be called upon to
stage from other airbases on sorties anywhere along the borders of North
America, and they were also required to have an emergency barracks bag
packed at all times for an emegency overseas deployment to any place in
the world with only a few days prior notice. They routinely made armed
sorties and interceptions of armed Soviet and Cuban military aircraft
while never knowing when one of these routine encounters could quickly
turn into another fatal military incident. The 111th FIS lost more
F-102A aircraft and pilots on missions for the Air Defense Command than
were lost by the Air Force on all operations in Vietnam.
.

User: "qwerty"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	04 Oct 2004 04:18:04 PM

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:416198A8.9030302@fidalgo.net...

Here's Kerry's enlistment contract specifying he's entering the
service of the Navy. It was EASY to find.
"First: To enter the service of the Navy of the United States and to report
to such station or vessel of the Navy as I may be ordered to join"
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Enlistment_Contract.pdf
February 18, 1966 Kerry formally enlists in the U.S. Navy"
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service_timeline.html
.

User: "Dallas Patterson"
Title: Re: Bush couldn't cut the mustard; he was failing in his abilities to fly	04 Oct 2004 08:21:50 PM

qwerty wrote:

"Dallas Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:416198A8.9030302@fidalgo.net...

Here's Kerry's enlistment contract specifying he's entering the
service of the Navy. It was EASY to find.

"First: To enter the service of the Navy of the United States and to report
to such station or vessel of the Navy as I may be ordered to join"

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Enlistment_Contract.pdf

February 18, 1966 Kerry formally enlists in the U.S. Navy"

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service_timeline.html

Evidently, you are illiterate. In block 4 of Kerry's "Enlistment
Contract" it reads "4. BRANCH & CLASS OF SERVICE USNR-R." It means that
Kerry enlisted in the USNR (i.e. the U.S. Navy Reserve) BRANCH as a U.S.
Navy Reserve Recruit. Furthermore Block 15 is checked to indicate
Kerry's enlistment in the U.S. Navy Reserve was for INACTIVE DUTY and
not for ACDU (Active Duty).
If Kerry had enlisted in the U.S. Navy BRANCH, Block 4 of the Enlistment
Contract would have read "4. BRANCH & CLASS OF SERVICE USN-R" (meaning
U.S. Navy Recruit), and Block 15 would have been checked for immediate
ACDU (meaning immediate Active Duty). So, Kerry enlisted in the U.S.
Navy Reserve as I said before, and he did not enlist in the U.S. Navy
active duty branch.
When you go to Kerry's Website to read his biography, you find no
mention whatsoever of his enlistment in the U.S. Navy Reserve.
"Career Summary...1966-1970. United States Navy. Volunteered for duty in
Vietnam where he earned three Purple Hearts, the Silver Star and the
Bronze Star." "military service timeline. Feb 1966. Formally enlists in
U.S. Navy."
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/bio.html
If he did not want to mislead people, Kerry had to list the United
States Navy Reserve, instead of the "United States Navy" and the U.S.
Navy". If Bush described himself as enlisting in the U.S. Air Force,
Kerry's supporters would crucify him in the news media for not saying he
enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard, which is a Ready Reserve
branch of the U.S. Air Force. Here we have Kerry claiming to have
enlisted in the U.S. Navy instead of the U.S. Navy Reserve, which is a
Ready Reserve branch of the U.S. Navy, and you see no crucification of
Kerry for doing so or even so much as one murmur of protest from Kerry's
supporters or the news media. This is an example of extreme hypocrisy
and blatant dishonesty.
Kerry supporters have tried to claim the use of the misleading
description of "United States Navy" as a subsitute for the actual
"United States Navy Reserve" is either not misleading or is
unintentionally misleading. Such an escuse and spin on Kerry's
statements in his biography just don't stand up to scrutiny when you
examine the context of the rest of his statements on his website.
"As he was graduating from Yale, John Kerry volunteered to serve in
Vietnam, because, as he later said, "it was the right thing to do." He
believed that "to whom much is given, much is required." And he felt he
had an obligation to give something back to his country. John Kerry
served two tours of duty. On his second tour, he volunteered to serve on
a Swift Boat in the river deltas, one of the most dangerous assignments
of the war. His leadership, courage, and sacrifice earned him a Silver
Star, a Bronze Star with Combat V, and three Purple Hearts."
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/bio.html
The first statement of Kerry's biography to examine is his statement,
"John Kerry volunteered to serve in Vietnam." For many good reasons,
this statement may be true. In OCS (Officer's Candidate School) Kerry
did make SC (Small Craft) and the new Swift Boats his first choice of
duty recommendation. However, there is still the question of why Kerry
would have enlisted for inactive duty in the U.S. Navy Reserve (USNR)
instead of ACDU (Active Duty) in the U.S. Navy (USN)? Kerry's second
choice were the amphibious forces (AMPHIB), and his third choice was
heavy cruisers (CA). The answer may be simply that the USNR was the only
path which could reasonably result in an assignment to the Swift boats,
or perhaps not. The only way Bush could guarantee an assignment as
fighter pilot was to enlist with an Air National Guard or Air Force
Reserve squadron which was operating fighter aircraft. It may be
possible Kerry used the USNR in the same kind of way to work h