| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"papa jack" |
| Date: |
29 May 2004 05:48:36 PM |
| Object: |
Court Lifts Abortion Law Restraining Order |
The Ghost In The Machine <ewill@aurigae.athghost7038suus.net> wrote
in message news:<hkamo1-d4s.ln1@lexi2.athghost7038suus.net>...
Flower Power <FreeTheWomen@my.com> wrote:
"papa jack" <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:bd9f1f6b.0405280755.7c9e552d@posting.google.com...
=========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
On May 27, 2004, the AP posted an article by David Lieb titled:
"Court Lifts Abortion Law Restraining Order." Go to:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040528/ap_on_re_us/abortion_lawsuit_1
_________________________________________________________________________
Excerpts:
"A federal appeals court Thursday lifted a temporary
restraining order against a new law requiring women
seeking abortions to wait 24 hours after consulting
a physician.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
What difference is waiting 24 hours going to make?
=========================================================================
Ghost wrote:
In rural areas, quite a bit, AIUI. Admittedly, I have
no data, but if it's a 4-hour drive to the nearest clinic,
and she has to go back, that's a doubling of gas money --
an issue nowadays with skyrocketing prices.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Wow! Just think of that! The woman might have to
spend $4 or $5 mote to have her unborn child killed.
The money, of course, is the most important consider-
ation we could think about. Wow!
BTW, I'm assuming a 4-hour drive is a50 to 200 miles.
Wonder how many women really drive that far to find
a "chop shop?"
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
If the women wants to abort, she will....
=========================================================================
Papa Jack replies:
Hmmmm. I WANT a lot of things I don't get. So,
why do you ass_U_me they will always get what
they want?
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
...Why don't the anti-choicers spend their billions
of dollars...
=========================================================================
Papa Jack laughed:
W H A T billions of dollars?
Remember, we're discussing court cases FILED BY
THE ABORTION INDUSTRY against state laws. It's
the states tax money which is being spent to
defend the laws passed by their legislatures and
signed by their governors.
Since a majority of the states have been involved
in lawsuits filed by the abortion industry at one
time or another, we're not just talking about a
few extremists. Rather, we're talking mainstream.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
...fighting legal abortion on those children already
born?...
=========================================================================
Papa Jack smiled:
I hate to be nit-picky, but you've clearly mixed up
your syntax here.
The states involved DO in fact spend a great deal of
money on born children in the system.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
...Spend it to find them adoptive families....
=========================================================================
Papa Jack explained:
It's not money (or lack thereof) which causes
many older children to be stuck in foster family
situations.
These cases are often very complex -- and many
families who have children removed for suspected
abuse or neglect file lawsuits to recover them.
Also, a substantial percentage were physically
and/or emotionally damaged by the abuse they
suffered. You cannot simply hand such children
to just anyone who comes along wanting a child.
They have special needs and the families who
take them must have greater qualifications to
have a reasonable chance of success.
In short, you're oversimplifying a complex situ-
ation to make a case for supporting the abortion
industry and their horrible business of killing
unborn children.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
...Spend it on help for all the African orphans of
AIDS....
=========================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
Let's see, you're proposing that whenever a law is
enacted which the abortion industry objects to, that
the state involved should give them whatever they
want. And, then you say the state should take the
money they might have spent in court and send it to
Africa?
I have nothing at all against charity for African
orphans, but something tells me the politicans who
did as you suggest wouldn't stay in office very long.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
...Spend it to help the teen mothers they coerced
with guilt into having unwanted babies.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack comments:
See, this is typical of Pro-Aborts. Don't hold
the pregnant girl (or the many who got her that
way) responsible -- instead, blame the folks who
might want to hold all people responsible for
their own actions.
Flower, do you think it's bad for any person to
feel guilty when they make decisions which lead
to bad consequences -- like an unwanted preg-
nancy?
How far should society go to help folks avoid
feeling guilty for the consequances of their
actions?
.
|
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| User: "Flower Power" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Lifts Abortion Law Restraining Order |
29 May 2004 09:56:12 PM |
|
|
"papa jack" <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:bd9f1f6b.0405291448.45839e30@posting.google.com...
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
What difference is waiting 24 hours going to make?
=========================================================================
Ghost wrote:
In rural areas, quite a bit, AIUI. Admittedly, I have
no data, but if it's a 4-hour drive to the nearest clinic,
and she has to go back, that's a doubling of gas money --
an issue nowadays with skyrocketing prices.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Wow! Just think of that! The woman might have to
spend $4 or $5 mote to have her unborn child killed.
## What unborn child? All children are already born.
BTW, I'm assuming a 4-hour drive is a50 to 200 miles.
Wonder how many women really drive that far to find
a "chop shop?"
## A chop shop? You mean the "delivery ward" where women suffer
unimaginable agony, are given episotomies that become infected, are given
unneeded cesareans.....
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
If the women wants to abort, she will....
=========================================================================
Papa Jack replies:
Hmmmm. I WANT a lot of things I don't get.
## Me too - but an unwanted child is 18 years of your life and may COST you
your life and financial future. Are you comparing an unwanted child to a
car or new puppy? Not getting that new speed boat or new golf club wont.
So,
why do you ass_U_me they will always get what
they want?
## Because they can! No one should be FORCED to have an unwanted child just
like no one should be forced to have to care for an unwanted dog or cat for
18 years.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
...Why don't the anti-choicers spend their billions
of dollars...
=========================================================================
Papa Jack laughed:
W H A T billions of dollars?
## The billions wasted worldwide fighting women's RIGHT to get an abortion.
Think how many unwanted kids already born can be fed and clothed with that
money! Think how many condoms it would pay for, and how many free
birth-control clinics they can set up all over the world.
Flower Power...
pro-choice (pr-chois)
adj.
Favoring or supporting the legal right of women and girls to choose
whether or not to continue a pregnancy to term.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Pro-Choice
~~~<~~~<~~~{@ ~~~<~~~<~~~{@ ~~~<~~~<~~~{@ ~~~<~~~{@
.
|
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|
| User: "papa jack" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Lifts Abortion Law Restraining Order |
01 Jun 2004 02:56:41 PM |
|
|
"Flower Power" <WomenFirst@this.NG> wrote
in message news:<JOudnUAnt9PS0CTdRVn-tw@heartoftn.net>...
"papa jack" <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
The Ghost In The Machine <ewill@aurigae.athghost7038suus.net>
wrote:
Flower Power <FreeTheWomen@my.com> wrote:
"papa jack" <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
=========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
On May 27, 2004, the AP posted an article by David Lieb titled:
"Court Lifts Abortion Law Restraining Order." Go to:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040528/ap_on_re_us/abortion_lawsuit_1
_________________________________________________________________________
Excerpts:
"A federal appeals court Thursday lifted a temporary
restraining order against a new law requiring women
seeking abortions to wait 24 hours after consulting
a physician.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
What difference is waiting 24 hours going to make?
=========================================================================
Ghost wrote:
In rural areas, quite a bit, AIUI. Admittedly, I have
no data, but if it's a 4-hour drive to the nearest clinic,
and she has to go back, that's a doubling of gas money --
an issue nowadays with skyrocketing prices.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Wow! Just think of that! The woman might have to
spend $4 or $5 mote to have her unborn child killed.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
## What unborn child? All children are already born.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack replies:
Let's see what the dictionaries have to say:
********************************************************************
http://www.merriamwebster.com/
Marriam Webster
Main Entry: child 
Pronunciation: 'chI(&)ld
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural chil·dren /'chil-dr&n, -d&rn/
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English cild; akin to
Gothic kilthei womb, and perhaps to Sanskrit jathara belly
1 a : an UNBORN or recently born person b dialect : a female infant
********************************************************************
http://www.bartleby.com/61/13/C0291300.html
The American Heritage Dictionary
child
Inflected forms: pl. chil·dren ( chldrn)
1. A person between birth and puberty. 2a. An UNBORN INFANT;
a FETUS. ...
********************************************************************
Black's Law Dictionary, 6th ed., 1990)
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/abtrbng/terms.htm
Child; Children. Progeny; offspring of parentage. UNBORN or recently
born human being. Wilson v. Weaver, 358 F.Supp. 1147, 1154. . .
Unborn child. The individual human life in existence and developing
prior to birth. A CHILD NOT YET BORN at the happening of an
event....
********************************************************************
Medical dictionary
http://www.intelihealth.com/cgi-bin/dictionary.cgi?book=Medical&adv=1&t=9276&p=%7Ebr%2CIHW%7C%7Est%2C9276%7C%7Er%2CWSIHW045%7C%7Eb%2C*%7C&WEB_HOME=%2FIH%2F&WEB_HOST=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.intelihealth.com&MIVAL=ihtIH&va=child&vao=Entry+Word&fl=&sl=&df=&dfo=Defining+Text&search.x=15&search.y=3
Main Entry: child
Pronunciation: 'chI(&)ld
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural chil·dren /'chil-dr&n, -d&rn/
1 : an UNBORN or recently born person
2 : a young person especially between infancy and youth
- with child...
=========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
BTW, I'm assuming a 4-hour drive is a 50 to 200 miles.
Wonder how many women really drive that far to find
a "chop shop?"
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
## A chop shop? You mean the "delivery ward" where women
suffer unimaginable agony, are given episotomies that become
infected, are given unneeded cesareans.....
=========================================================================
Papa Jack nodded:
Yep, that sounds like a "chop shop" to me.
When I use the term "chop shop," I think of those
abortion clinics where they perfoam abortions on
an assembly line basis.
You talk about the pain and risk to the pregnant
woman -- but, do you ever worry about the pain
to the fetus which is being chopped up for the
convenience of the woman?
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
If the women wants to abort, she will....
=========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
Hmmmm. I WANT a lot of things I don't get.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
## Me too - but an unwanted child is 18 years of your
life and may COST you your life and financial future.
Are you comparing an unwanted child to a car or new
puppy? Not getting that new speed boat or new golf
club wont.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack answered:
Nope, I'm comparing an unwanted child to any other
child. It's a major investment of time, effort,
money, and emotional capital. If a woman really
doesn't want to ever have a child, she should have
her tubes tied. If she thinks she might want one
later, she should be particularly careful with the
use of birth control methods.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
So, why do you ass_U_me they will always get what
they want?
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
## Because they can! No one should be FORCED to have
an unwanted child just like no one should be forced
to have to care for an unwanted dog or cat for 18 years.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack shrugged:
You're a true spokewoman for the "ME," "ME," "ME," "ME,"
"ME," "ME," "ME," "ME," generation.
You would be willing to kill an unborn human being
to avoid the inconvenience a child might bring to
your lifestyle. That's a cruel and barbaric attitude
toward the sanctity of human life.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
...Why don't the anti-choicers spend their billions
of dollars...
=========================================================================
Papa Jack laughed:
W H A T billions of dollars?
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
## The billions wasted worldwide fighting women's RIGHT
to get an abortion. Think how many unwanted kids already
born can be fed and clothed with that money! Think how
many condoms it would pay for, and how many free
birth-control clinics they can set up all over the world.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack shook his head:
But look at the price -- we've already far exceeded any
comparison to the Holocaust with the mass slaughter of
over 35,000,000 unborn human beings. How many more
millions must die for the convenience of the Culture
of Death?
.
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| User: "Flower Power" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Lifts Abortion Law Restraining Order |
01 Jun 2004 06:37:53 PM |
|
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"papa jack" <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:bd9f1f6b.0406011156.36a1f65b@posting.google.com...
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
## What unborn child? All children are already born.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack replies:
Let's see what the dictionaries have to say:
## No matter how YOU see a zygote/fetus - doesn't mean everyone sees them
the same way. And it seems you have no plans on how to help to support and
find adoptive homes for the millions of unwanted suffering children already
here. Why is that? Why ask women to risk their lives to produce even more
to add to the system? You never mention teaching them about, or offering
FREE birth control to women and girls. Why is that?
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
## A chop shop? You mean the "delivery ward" where women
suffer unimaginable agony, are given episotomies that become
infected, are given unneeded cesareans.....
=========================================================================
Papa Jack nodded:
Yep, that sounds like a "chop shop" to me.
## And when who ABORT don't have to go through all that as we know.
When I use the term "chop shop," I think of those
abortion clinics where they perfoam abortions on
an assembly line basis.
## And some of us who have born children think of "chop shops" as the labor
and delivery rooms where the real suffering and deaths occur.
You talk about the pain and risk to the pregnant
woman -- but, do you ever worry about the pain
to the fetus which is being chopped up for the
convenience of the woman?
## What pain? How long would they feel anything? What can and do they
feel? I don't remember feeling or thinking anything before birth or a few
years afterward. A women can labor in agony for many, many hours. Weeks
and months if there are complications. Why don't you THINK about her for a
change? You have never once mentioned the health or welfare of the
women/teens.
Papa Jack wrote:
Hmmmm. I WANT a lot of things I don't get.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
## Me too - but an unwanted child is 18 years of your
life and may COST you your life and financial future.
Are you comparing an unwanted child to a car or new
puppy? Not getting that new speed boat or new golf
club wont.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack answered:
Nope, I'm comparing an unwanted child to any other
child.
## Any other child may be wanted. A wanted child isn't aborted.
It's a major investment of time, effort,
money, and emotional capital.
## If it's wanted! Wanted children aren't aborted so what's your problem?
If a woman really
doesn't want to ever have a child, she should have
her tubes tied.
## And the anti-Choicers will PAY for this? Or do you expect a teen to rob
a bank for the $1,500? What about a woman who doesn't want a child NOW but
plans one in the future? Why should she get sterilized for YOU? Because
YOU thinks she should?
If she thinks she might want one
later, she should be particularly careful with the
use of birth control methods.
## BC still fails no matter how careful a women can be. That's where
abortion comes in.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
So, why do you ass_U_me they will always get what
they want?
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
## Because they can! No one should be FORCED to have
an unwanted child just like no one should be forced
to have to care for an unwanted dog or cat for 18 years.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack shrugged:
You're a true spokewoman for the "ME," "ME," "ME," "ME,"
"ME," "ME," "ME," "ME," generation.
## And you're a true spokesman for the "CONTROL THE WOMEN" generation.
Keep 'em barefoot and pregnant - keep 'em in their place. If women didn't
worry about themselves no one else would. We'd still be servants and unpaid
maids to men.
You would be willing to kill an unborn human being
## To these women it's NOT an unborn human being - you can't seem to get
that fact through your head! All human beings have been born, and even then
mother's kill them.
to avoid the inconvenience a child might bring to
your lifestyle.
## An unwanted, unloved, resented child can bring disaster to both the
mother and itself, so don't play dumb with me.
That's a cruel and barbaric attitude
toward the sanctity of human life.
## No everyone's a religious freak like you. Most people have come into the
21 Century and left superstition behind...... I'm no interested in
discussing religion as everyone knows no god would curse a women with an
unwanted child. All children deserve to be loved and wanted - unfortunately
YOU don't think so.
--
Flower Power.....
For those seeking the real truth - evolution/magic creation:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
http://talkorigins.org/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#pred4
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html
<>
.
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| User: "The Ghost In The Machine" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Lifts Abortion Law Restraining Order |
30 May 2004 06:20:50 PM |
|
|
In talk.abortion, Flower Power
<WomenFirst@this.NG>
wrote
on Sat, 29 May 2004 21:56:12 -0500
<JOudnUAnt9PS0CTdRVn-tw@heartoftn.net>:
"papa jack" <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:bd9f1f6b.0405291448.45839e30@posting.google.com...
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
What difference is waiting 24 hours going to make?
=========================================================================
Ghost wrote:
In rural areas, quite a bit, AIUI. Admittedly, I have
no data, but if it's a 4-hour drive to the nearest clinic,
and she has to go back, that's a doubling of gas money --
an issue nowadays with skyrocketing prices.
=========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Wow! Just think of that! The woman might have to
spend $4 or $5 mote to have her unborn child killed.
## What unborn child? All children are already born.
The terminology is indeed interesting, and part of the problem.
For example, the Nazis probably had a fair number of euphemisms
for the introduction of Zyklon-B pellets into their chambers.
It doesn't lessen the act any.
Nevertheless, I remain pro-choice -- as I for one:
[1] do not want to have to check up on any woman I see walking
down the street to see if she's about to "kill her baby";
I've got better things to do, and the reps employed on my
behalf -- namely, the police -- probably do, too,
[2] worry that any attempts to do so will reflect badly on
society at large -- today, the woman going to the
abortion clinic, but what about tomorrow, the guy getting
his groceries/gas/Gameboy at the local store? And then
there's next week, where everyone is being carefully watched
lest they do anything that might hint of revolt^Wterrorism,
[3] value my freedom, and by projection, a woman's freedom
of choice, even if that choice is occasionally
distasteful. But then, menses is distateful --
but all women do it until menopause; not a lot I
can do about it. Do men and women lose freedom if
government (of the people) grants freedom to a foetus?
Very likely, from what I see.
Of course, there's a conflict here. The woman has needs (bodily
functions, after all, don't work without food, and need to
eliminate waste). The foetus also has needs, if she is pregnant,
which can lead to some interesting cravings, as I understand it.
BTW, I'm assuming a 4-hour drive is a50 to 200 miles.
Wonder how many women really drive that far to find
a "chop shop?"
## A chop shop? You mean the "delivery ward" where women suffer
unimaginable agony, are given episotomies that become infected,
are given unneeded cesareans.....
And are billed $5K for the privilege, as I understand it. But
never mind that, save the children! As long as someone else
pays for it.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
If the women wants to abort, she will....
=========================================================================
Papa Jack replies:
Hmmmm. I WANT a lot of things I don't get.
## Me too - but an unwanted child is 18 years of your life and may COST you
your life and financial future. Are you comparing an unwanted child to a
car or new puppy? Not getting that new speed boat or new golf club wont.
The estimate I know about is a minimum of $120K, over 20 years.
So,
why do you ass_U_me they will always get what
they want?
## Because they can! No one should be FORCED to have an unwanted child just
like no one should be forced to have to care for an unwanted dog or cat for
18 years.
At the risk of causing a split in the ranks: the woman can of course
give the child up for adoption -- *after* its birth. The problems
with that, of course, are many:
[1] She's given birth, which entails damage/wear and tear,
and of course risk of death. Some women are advised
against pregnancy (e.g., improper detachment of the
placenta can lead to fatal hemmorhaeging). Such women
are well-advised to abort if they do get pregnant.
There are also issues regarding Rh factor: the first
baby is fine, but...
[2] Blue-eyed blonde healthy babies are by far the most
preferred, AFAIK. Other baby types are worth less.
Why, I don't know. Is "Aryan" so ingrained in our
desires that a healthy Asian, black, Jewish, or Arab
baby isn't in demand? Then again, there are issues
when women addicted to crack and selling themselves
("crack whores") get pregnant; turns out their babies
are born addicted if they don't seek medical attention.
Sickly babies aren't in demand anywhere.
[3] This might fall under "unreasonable" when it comes
to requirements. I have no idea how much a woman would
be compensated for having a child but perhaps $60K
(half the minimum rearing cost) might be a good figure.
But here's a thought: suppose one pays union minimum
wage (1 1/2 time for overtime, 2x for Sundays) of
$6.25/hour, for 38 weeks.
40 hours at $0.00, except for perhaps the last two
weeks, a total of $500. (Presumably, she's employed
elsewhere, and "double-dipping" should therefore not
be an issue. If she is also compensated for those
36 weeks that she's employable at a "regular job",
add $9000 to the total.)
38 weeks x 80 hours for the M-F overtime, at $9.375/hour = $28,500.00
38 Saturdays x 24 hours x $9.375/hour = $8,550
38 Sundays x 24 hours x $12.50/hour = $11,400
TOTAL: $48,950 -- or maybe $57,950.
Not sure how "fair" this is but that would probably be the
least compensation for the requirement that a woman have a
baby, if she's not otherwise willing to take the sacrifice.
I've yet to see a pro-lifer suggest that they be paid;
most of them concentrate on the fact that she's saved her
baby.
=========================================================================
Flower Power wrote:
...Why don't the anti-choicers spend their billions
of dollars...
=========================================================================
Papa Jack laughed:
W H A T billions of dollars?
## The billions wasted worldwide fighting women's RIGHT to get an abortion.
Think how many unwanted kids already born can be fed and clothed with that
money! Think how many condoms it would pay for, and how many free
birth-control clinics they can set up all over the world.
I'd have to look, but the education in 3rd-world countries regarding
reproductive choice has already helped to some extent in lessening
the population problem.
That includes abortion, of course.
[.sigsnip]
--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: Court Lifts Abortion Law Restraining Order |
29 May 2004 06:10:30 PM |
|
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papa jackass <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
The Ghost In The Machine <ewill@aurigae.athghost7038suus.net> wrote
Flower Power <FreeTheWomen@my.com> wrote:
What difference is waiting 24 hours going to make?
In rural areas, quite a bit, AIUI. Admittedly, I have
no data, but if it's a 4-hour drive to the nearest clinic,
and she has to go back, that's a doubling of gas money --
an issue nowadays with skyrocketing prices.
Wow! Just think of that! The woman might have to
spend $4 or $5 mote to have her unborn child killed.
Which is more than you're willing to spend to keep it alive.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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