Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

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Topic:	Science > Abortion
User:	"Rob Wade"
Date:	22 Aug 2005 05:39:14 PM
Object:	Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality
By Al Kinght
Denver Post Columnist
A controversy in Lexington, Mass., over when and how elementary school
children should be taught about homosexuality has, for good reason,
begun to attract national attention.
The dispute occurred in the only state that allows for same-sex
marriage, but the elements of the underlying cultural and educational
controversy could easily be duplicated in hundreds of American school
districts.
On April 27, David Parker, the father of a kindergarten student in
Lexington's Joseph Estabrook Elementary School, was arrested on a
trespassing charge and jailed overnight. Parker had gone to the school
to meet with administrators after his son had brought home a book
titled "Who's in a Family?" The book ostensibly teaches the young about
"multicultural contemporary family units," a category that prominently
includes gay and lesbian arrangements.
Parker objected and sought assurances he would be notified before the
school attempted to teach his child about homosexuality or related
topics. The school officials first indicated a willingness to do so,
but later refused. Parker insisted and refused to leave.
He was then arrested, and will be tried Sept. 21.
Gay and lesbian advocacy groups claim Parker set up the arrest in order
to make an anti-gay political statement, and they downplay the
importance of the book, saying its inclusion on a reading list doesn't
constitute actual instruction. School officials have taken the position
that they had no choice but to have Parker arrested once he refused to
exit the meeting without the assurances he had been seeking.
There are people in and around the edges of this case who have adopted
a "who me?" attitude and wish to pretend this controversy doesn't have
anything to do with larger issues.
Well, it didn't just happen, and it isn't just about Parker and the
so-called bookbag at the Estabrook Elementary School which includes
"Who's in a Family?"
The plain truth is that there has long been a national campaign to
transform the atmosphere of the nation's schools. The book "Who's in a
Family?" is a small part of that campaign.
The Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN) has been busy
for 10 years offering help to those educators who want to create what
is called a "more affirming" environment for gay, lesbian, bisexual and
transgendered students.
Up until now, much of the organization's efforts have gone to creating
gay student groups at hundreds of high schools and passing laws or
regulations that limit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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or eliminate harassment aimed at homosexuals. GLSEN reports that 70 or
so Colorado high schools have gay student clubs (usually called
gay-straight alliances).
The organization has also used part of its $4.3 million budget to
promote a reading list for students as young as those in kindergarten.
"Who's in a Family?" is one of the books on the GLSEN list, as are
"Heather has Two Mommies," "Daddy's Roommate" and "Going to Fair Day."
As students move up in age, they are invited to read "Love Makes a
Family," "Is it a Choice?" and similar tomes.
At the high school level, some of this indoctrination might be excused
on the grounds that students are old enough to make personal choices
and maybe some of them can define terms like "sexuality" and "gender."
No such excuse can be made for this kind of social indoctrination at
the elementary level.
The very idea that GLSEN and other groups are busy offering
"educational resources" or training programs to elementary school
teachers in order to create a more "affirming environment" for gay
students is appalling.
The good news is that Colorado passed a state law last year that
prohibits giving continuing education credits to teachers for attending
the kind of workshops GLSEN offers. In this state, such learning
credits must be "content-related," and most of what GLSEN offers
clearly isn't.
Whatever the state of the law and the outlines of the educational
landscape, David Parker deserves immense credit. His arrest is an
important reminder that some school officials, and not just in
Massachusetts, have become more concerned with political correctness
than sound education.
They have it exactly backwards, and thankfully Parker isn't the only
one who knows it.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	22 Aug 2005 07:39:39 PM

In episode <fprkg1ht0oipvmm960oqntmug7qtm4797u@4ax.com>, jw burst into the
room and exclaimed:

x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:45:07 GMT, "The Other Donald"
<the_donald_13@yeehaw.com> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
author

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see Intelligent
Design.

Which must explain why nobody in the National Academy of Sciences can see
it but Usenet kooks can...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.

User: "jw"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	23 Aug 2005 03:13:49 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:39:39 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
author

In episode <fprkg1ht0oipvmm960oqntmug7qtm4797u@4ax.com>, jw burst into the
room and exclaimed:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see Intelligent
Design.

Which must explain why nobody in the National Academy of Sciences can see
it but Usenet kooks can...

So you are saying that you personally know EVERY present and past
member of the NAS, and you know and can state decisively that NONE
have ever believed in an Intelligent Creator.
WRONG!
That would mean NO doctors, NO research scientists, NO computer
scientists, NO nurses, NO engineers, NO computer technicians believe
in God.
WRONG!
jw
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	23 Aug 2005 04:07:29 PM

In episode <to0ng1lp9eg8enmsisa2h54cfshm41k1hn@4ax.com>, jw burst into the
room and exclaimed:

In episode <fprkg1ht0oipvmm960oqntmug7qtm4797u@4ax.com>, jw burst into
the room and exclaimed:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Which must explain why nobody in the National Academy of Sciences can see
it but Usenet kooks can...

So you are saying that you personally know EVERY present and past member
of the NAS, and you know and can state decisively that NONE have ever
believed in an Intelligent Creator.

WRONG!

That would mean NO doctors, NO research scientists, NO computer
scientists, NO nurses, NO engineers, NO computer technicians believe in
God.

WRONG!

Over 90% in every category are atheist/agnostic. Belief in any deity at
all among NAS members is in the single digits.
Rant all you want. There was a survey published in Nature. We have actual
numbers.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.

User: "jw"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	23 Aug 2005 07:42:39 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:07:29 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
author

In episode <to0ng1lp9eg8enmsisa2h54cfshm41k1hn@4ax.com>, jw burst into the
room and exclaimed:

In episode <fprkg1ht0oipvmm960oqntmug7qtm4797u@4ax.com>, jw burst into
the room and exclaimed:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Which must explain why nobody in the National Academy of Sciences can see
it but Usenet kooks can...

So you are saying that you personally know EVERY present and past member
of the NAS, and you know and can state decisively that NONE have ever
believed in an Intelligent Creator.

WRONG!

That would mean NO doctors, NO research scientists, NO computer
scientists, NO nurses, NO engineers, NO computer technicians believe in
God.

WRONG!

Post them.
And there is a WIDE difference between atheists and agnostics.
And for my money, agnosticism is an intellectually tenable position;
atheism is not.
The agnostic admittedly states, "I don't know if there is a God."
The atheist falsely claims, "There is no God," with absolutely NO
proof beyond his ego to support that false claim.
jw
.

User: "osprey"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	23 Aug 2005 03:16:59 PM

jw wrote:

In episode <fprkg1ht0oipvmm960oqntmug7qtm4797u@4ax.com>, jw burst into the
room and exclaimed:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see Intelligent
Design.

Which must explain why nobody in the National Academy of Sciences can see
it but Usenet kooks can...

So you are saying that you personally know EVERY present and past
member of the NAS, and you know and can state decisively that NONE
have ever believed in an Intelligent Creator.

WRONG!

That would mean NO doctors, NO research scientists, NO computer
scientists, NO nurses, NO engineers, NO computer technicians believe
in God.

WRONG!

jw

Here is something interesting I have on file..
Guess How Many Doctors Believe in God?
Fully 76 percent of U.S. doctors say they believe in God, nearly 60
percent believe in some kind of afterlife and 90 percent attend
religious services at least sometimes, according to a new study by
researchers at the University of Chicago. Unlike the general
population, physicians are more likely to describe themselves as
"spiritual" instead of "religious," concepts that are more tightly
connected and not separate for most people.
This is very surprising! Guess who doesn't believe in God?
The findings contradict earlier studies that show we tend to become
less religious as our education and income level rises. Study leader
Dr. Farr Curlin, admitted he was surprised by the results as he and his
team did not realize medical doctors were so religious.
Do you think your doctor believes in God? Has your medical care has
ever had a spiritual component?
When a doctor is faced with a patient's major illness they tend to
differ on how they rely on God. While most patients look to God for
strength, support and guidance, most doctors try to make sense of the
situation and decide what to do without relying on God. However, 55
percent said their religious beliefs influence how they practice
medicine, including treating patients who are facing death and
end-of-life care, as well as sexual and reproductive health.
Scientists say spirituality has a unique benefit.
Farr explained in a news release announcing the study that he suspects
people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion
and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to
medicine, as the responsibility to care for those who are suffering,
and the rewards of helping those in need, resonate throughout most
religious traditions.
Guess how many of us believe in angels?
Of the doctors surveyed, 5 percent were Hindu, 2 percent Muslim and 1
percent Buddhist, all much higher than those faiths are represented in
the general population and in part reflecting the large number of
foreign-born doctors who emigrate to the United States, the study said.
The study findings have been published in the Journal of General
Internal Medicine.
.

User: "Andrealphus"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	23 Aug 2005 04:12:48 PM

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1124828219.545399.188300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

jw wrote:

In episode <fprkg1ht0oipvmm960oqntmug7qtm4797u@4ax.com>, jw burst into
the
room and exclaimed:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent
Design.

Which must explain why nobody in the National Academy of Sciences can
see
it but Usenet kooks can...

So you are saying that you personally know EVERY present and past
member of the NAS, and you know and can state decisively that NONE
have ever believed in an Intelligent Creator.

WRONG!

That would mean NO doctors, NO research scientists, NO computer
scientists, NO nurses, NO engineers, NO computer technicians believe
in God.

WRONG!

jw

How many practice medicine like the doctor's of Jesus' time? How many
practice medicine in the way proscribed by St. Luke?
Tell you what, you find one of those doctors, and have a check up. Good
luck with that.
.

User: "osprey"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	23 Aug 2005 10:27:10 PM

Andrealphus wrote:

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1124828219.545399.188300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

jw wrote:

In episode <fprkg1ht0oipvmm960oqntmug7qtm4797u@4ax.com>, jw burst into
the
room and exclaimed:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent
Design.

Which must explain why nobody in the National Academy of Sciences can
see
it but Usenet kooks can...

So you are saying that you personally know EVERY present and past
member of the NAS, and you know and can state decisively that NONE
have ever believed in an Intelligent Creator.

WRONG!

That would mean NO doctors, NO research scientists, NO computer
scientists, NO nurses, NO engineers, NO computer technicians believe
in God.

WRONG!

jw

How many practice medicine like the doctor's of Jesus' time? How many
practice medicine in the way proscribed by St. Luke?

Tell you what, you find one of those doctors, and have a check up. Good
luck with that.

Are you suggesting that those doctors are not capable of providing
quality health care?
.

User: "Andrealphus"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	24 Aug 2005 05:43:34 AM

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1124854030.767319.290810@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrealphus wrote:

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1124828219.545399.188300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

jw wrote:

In episode <fprkg1ht0oipvmm960oqntmug7qtm4797u@4ax.com>, jw burst
into
the
room and exclaimed:

x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:45:07 GMT, "The Other Donald"
<the_donald_13@yeehaw.com> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of
this
post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent
of
author

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach
the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent
Design.

Which must explain why nobody in the National Academy of Sciences can
see
it but Usenet kooks can...

So you are saying that you personally know EVERY present and past
member of the NAS, and you know and can state decisively that NONE
have ever believed in an Intelligent Creator.

WRONG!

That would mean NO doctors, NO research scientists, NO computer
scientists, NO nurses, NO engineers, NO computer technicians believe
in God.

WRONG!

jw

How many practice medicine like the doctor's of Jesus' time? How many
practice medicine in the way proscribed by St. Luke?

Tell you what, you find one of those doctors, and have a check up. Good
luck with that.

Are you suggesting that those doctors are not capable of providing
quality health care?

That is for you to find out, isn't it? Since the Jews of Jesus's day
believed that the sole function of the brain was for the production of
Phlegm, and that all human emotion was generated in the heart, I would say
that no, not only were they incapable of providing quality health care, but
health care was a nightmare during that time.
.

User: "jw"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	23 Aug 2005 07:40:24 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:12:48 GMT, "Andrealphus"
<NOREALEMAIL2@THISADDRESS.FOAD> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
author

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1124828219.545399.188300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

jw wrote:

In episode <fprkg1ht0oipvmm960oqntmug7qtm4797u@4ax.com>, jw burst into
the
room and exclaimed:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent
Design.

Which must explain why nobody in the National Academy of Sciences can
see
it but Usenet kooks can...

So you are saying that you personally know EVERY present and past
member of the NAS, and you know and can state decisively that NONE
have ever believed in an Intelligent Creator.

WRONG!

That would mean NO doctors, NO research scientists, NO computer
scientists, NO nurses, NO engineers, NO computer technicians believe
in God.

WRONG!

jw

How many practice medicine like the doctor's of Jesus' time? How many
practice medicine in the way proscribed by St. Luke?

Why would any medical doctor today practice medicine the way Dr Luke
did?
Do you likewise expect all Christians to forgo modern scientific
advances, microwaves, cars, hot running water, indoor sanitation,
computers, cell phones?
Rubbish! The Christians of Jesus' day availed themselves of the
technology of their time.

Tell you what, you find one of those doctors, and have a check up. Good
luck with that.

Well, fact is, more and more enlightened physicians are going back to
natural medicine whenever possible.
jw

User: "Andrealphus"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	23 Aug 2005 09:02:38 PM

"jw @yoo.hoo>" <jw<no> wrote in message
news:pbgng1t5jihki2r38p0n820dtkimao6307@4ax.com...

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1124828219.545399.188300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

jw wrote:

In episode <fprkg1ht0oipvmm960oqntmug7qtm4797u@4ax.com>, jw burst into
the
room and exclaimed:

x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:45:07 GMT, "The Other Donald"
<the_donald_13@yeehaw.com> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of
this
post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent
of
author

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach
the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent
Design.

Which must explain why nobody in the National Academy of Sciences can
see
it but Usenet kooks can...

So you are saying that you personally know EVERY present and past
member of the NAS, and you know and can state decisively that NONE
have ever believed in an Intelligent Creator.

WRONG!

That would mean NO doctors, NO research scientists, NO computer
scientists, NO nurses, NO engineers, NO computer technicians believe
in God.

WRONG!

jw

How many practice medicine like the doctor's of Jesus' time? How many
practice medicine in the way proscribed by St. Luke?

Why would any medical doctor today practice medicine the way Dr Luke
did?

If it was good enough for Jesus....
.

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	23 Aug 2005 10:15:41 PM

x-no-archive: yes

How many practice medicine like the doctor's of Jesus' time? How
many practice medicine in the way proscribed by St. Luke?

Why would any medical doctor today practice medicine the way Dr Luke
did?

Do you likewise expect all Christians to forgo modern scientific
advances, microwaves, cars, hot running water, indoor sanitation,
computers, cell phones?

Rubbish! The Christians of Jesus' day availed themselves of the
technology of their time.

Tell you what, you find one of those doctors, and have a check up.
Good luck with that.

Well, fact is, more and more enlightened physicians are going back to
natural medicine whenever possible.

Talks cheap. First tell us what "natural medicine" means to you, then
provide some information for your claims based on your definition.
If you are actually involved in the medical field at any level you would be
aware of the number of doctors who are religious. You would also be aware
that few doctors practice much in the way of science in the medical field.
Most medicine is cookbook stuff and the real trick is to learn what not to
add to the pot.
The vast majority of doctors get their information about new drugs from the
same salesman who gives him or her free samples.
It is *very* amusing to watch one of these salesmen go up against a doc who
has actually read the literature before the salesperson hits the office
door.
They are not used to it and it shows.
.

User: "jw"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	24 Aug 2005 12:23:12 AM

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:15:41 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
author

x-no-archive: yes

How many practice medicine like the doctor's of Jesus' time? How
many practice medicine in the way proscribed by St. Luke?

Why would any medical doctor today practice medicine the way Dr Luke
did?

Do you likewise expect all Christians to forgo modern scientific
advances, microwaves, cars, hot running water, indoor sanitation,
computers, cell phones?

Rubbish! The Christians of Jesus' day availed themselves of the
technology of their time.

Tell you what, you find one of those doctors, and have a check up.
Good luck with that.

Well, fact is, more and more enlightened physicians are going back to
natural medicine whenever possible.

Talks cheap. First tell us what "natural medicine" means to you, then
provide some information for your claims based on your definition.

#1 Explain why, with your expressed attitude towards me since I've
been aware of you-- why I'd answer any of your questions.
#2 To answer:
Vitamin C , Vitamin E,
fish oil
flax seed
aspirin
various herbs
Green Tea
just for a FEW examples.
As one EXCELLENT example, many years ago, I got a natural recipe for a
tea from an "Indian" (Native American) medicine man. I had a bleeding
ulcer at the time. The "tea" I prepared from his formula healed my
bleeding ulcer -- literally -- in 30 days. To prove this to myself, I
faked symptoms and had a complete GI work up AFTER taking the tea for
30 days. There was NO sign of any ulcer -- not even a scar. And when
I had previously had the complete GI work up BEFORE the tea, I had
seen the ulcer on the X-ray.
THAT's what I mean by "natural medicine."
Another ancient herbal medicine that too many like to laugh at is
hemp.
I have several herb medicine books, but since I haven't had the money
for such in many years, I have not studied it much.
When I have the $$$, I use the herbs when / where they work.

If you are actually involved in the medical field at any level you would be
aware of the number of doctors who are religious. You would also be aware
that few doctors practice much in the way of science in the medical field.
Most medicine is cookbook stuff and the real trick is to learn what not to
add to the pot.
The vast majority of doctors get their information about new drugs from the
same salesman who gives him or her free samples.

And those are the MDs I tend to avoid. In my situation, my MDs are
all excellent, and they are well-educated and well-read.

It is *very* amusing to watch one of these salesmen go up against a doc who
has actually read the literature before the salesperson hits the office
door.
They are not used to it and it shows.

I have-- in fact-- been in on several of those "displays."
You are right. Although, I would not want to ASSUME that FEW MDs "know
their stuff."
Or perhaps I have been blessed with MDs who do.
My last MD in Los Angeles was a PH D Nutritionist who was a "founding
fellow" of the Geneva School of Applied Nutrition.
This MD had a back room full of natural medicine which he dispensed
whenever possible.
jw

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	24 Aug 2005 12:36:50 PM

x-no-archive: yes

How many practice medicine like the doctor's of Jesus' time? How
many practice medicine in the way proscribed by St. Luke?

Why would any medical doctor today practice medicine the way Dr Luke
did?

Do you likewise expect all Christians to forgo modern scientific
advances, microwaves, cars, hot running water, indoor sanitation,
computers, cell phones?

Rubbish! The Christians of Jesus' day availed themselves of the
technology of their time.

Tell you what, you find one of those doctors, and have a check up.
Good luck with that.

Well, fact is, more and more enlightened physicians are going back
to natural medicine whenever possible.

Talks cheap. First tell us what "natural medicine" means to you, then
provide some information for your claims based on your definition.

#1 Explain why, with your expressed attitude towards me since I've
been aware of you-- why I'd answer any of your questions.

You have claimed, among other things to be a writer.
Competant writers check their facts.
You frequently make claims that are wrong. Completely, utterly, exactly the
opposite of true, WRONG.
Usually a few minutes to a few seconds of checking your facts would have
revealed this information to you as wrong.
So when you make empty statements about "natural medicines" and what
"enlightened physicians " are doing I question you.

#2 To answer:

Vitamin C , Vitamin E,

Nothing new here. Getting an adequate supply of vitamins has been high on
the list of even unelightened doctors for a long time.
Few doctors will suggest or prescribe the excessive amounts provided by a
lot of pills.

fish oil

Because it contains the vitamins you mention

flax seed
aspirin

You feel that only "enlightened doctors" are turning to this today?

various herbs

Green Tea

just for a FEW examples.

of things touted in helath food stores as the latest cure all but hardly of
any value in supporting your statement.

As one EXCELLENT example, many years ago, I got a natural recipe for a
tea from an "Indian" (Native American) medicine man. I had a bleeding
ulcer at the time. The "tea" I prepared from his formula healed my
bleeding ulcer -- literally -- in 30 days. To prove this to myself, I
faked symptoms and had a complete GI work up AFTER taking the tea for
30 days. There was NO sign of any ulcer -- not even a scar. And when
I had previously had the complete GI work up BEFORE the tea, I had
seen the ulcer on the X-ray.

THAT's what I mean by "natural medicine."

That is a meaningless anecdotal story. I'd be a bit suspect because there
would be no need to "fake" anything if you were in fact cured. The doctor
would be rather curious.
As for seeing an ulcer on an X-ray, you must be pretty amazing. I've seen
*lots* of x-rays and for other than glaring fractures, I've had to be shown
by a doctor all the minor things.
But tell us what was in this infusion you took. (Tea is a beverage formed by
infusing a leaf from a Tea bush in boiling water.)

Another ancient herbal medicine that too many like to laugh at is
hemp.

I have several herb medicine books, but since I haven't had the money
for such in many years, I have not studied it much.

When I have the $$$, I use the herbs when / where they work.

Most of this stuff is crap. Science tossed it many years ago when it was
shown not to work.
Things of value stayed and contrary to the claims of the people that push
the stuff the drug industry makes a ton of money off them.
acetylsalicylic acid has done quite well.

If you are actually involved in the medical field at any level you
would be aware of the number of doctors who are religious. You would
also be aware that few doctors practice much in the way of science
in the medical field. Most medicine is cookbook stuff and the real
trick is to learn what not to add to the pot.
The vast majority of doctors get their information about new drugs
from the same salesman who gives him or her free samples.

And those are the MDs I tend to avoid. In my situation, my MDs are
all excellent, and they are well-educated and well-read.

I've yet to meet anybody who didn't believe this of their doctors.
I also know all to often what other docs say about some of these quacks and
seen the damage they do.
<snip>

My last MD in Los Angeles was a PH D Nutritionist who was a "founding
fellow" of the Geneva School of Applied Nutrition.

This MD had a back room full of natural medicine which he dispensed
whenever possible.

"Geneva School of Applied Nutrition" is mentioned only three time in a
Google search and guess who supplied the information. You.
It certainly sounds like an impressive academic institution/
Is the school in the back room with the "natural medicines"
I convinced a lady to go to a real doctor a month or so ago and he took her
off soy because of the well known, at least to real doctors, "enlightened"
or not, problems it causes. She feels a lot better now.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	24 Aug 2005 02:27:27 PM

In episode <Se2Pe.729$dw4.498@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, Mike Painter
burst into the room and exclaimed:

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:15:41 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
author

x-no-archive: yes

How many practice medicine like the doctor's of Jesus' time? How
many practice medicine in the way proscribed by St. Luke?

Why would any medical doctor today practice medicine the way Dr Luke
did?

Do you likewise expect all Christians to forgo modern scientific
advances, microwaves, cars, hot running water, indoor sanitation,
computers, cell phones?

Rubbish! The Christians of Jesus' day availed themselves of the
technology of their time.

Tell you what, you find one of those doctors, and have a check up.
Good luck with that.

Well, fact is, more and more enlightened physicians are going back to
natural medicine whenever possible.

Talks cheap. First tell us what "natural medicine" means to you, then
provide some information for your claims based on your definition.

#1 Explain why, with your expressed attitude towards me since I've been
aware of you-- why I'd answer any of your questions.

You have claimed, among other things to be a writer. Competant writers
check their facts.

Actual writers also tend to have, oh, publishing credits?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	24 Aug 2005 05:22:42 PM

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

#1 Explain why, with your expressed attitude towards me since I've
been aware of you-- why I'd answer any of your questions.

You have claimed, among other things to be a writer. Competant
writers check their facts.

Actual writers also tend to have, oh, publishing credits?

True, but I have never seen him mention that he ever did it professionally.
I simply assumed that when he said he was a writer he had some formal
training...
or read part of a book about.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	24 Aug 2005 06:18:19 PM

In episode <Sq6Pe.781$dw4.679@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, Mike Painter
burst into the room and exclaimed:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

#1 Explain why, with your expressed attitude towards me since I've
been aware of you-- why I'd answer any of your questions.

You have claimed, among other things to be a writer. Competant writers
check their facts.

Actual writers also tend to have, oh, publishing credits?

True, but I have never seen him mention that he ever did it
professionally. I simply assumed that when he said he was a writer he had
some formal training...

or read part of a book about.

Or could... write...
(Like sentences and stuff)
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	24 Aug 2005 09:21:22 PM

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In episode <Sq6Pe.781$dw4.679@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, Mike
Painter burst into the room and exclaimed:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

#1 Explain why, with your expressed attitude towards me since

I've

been aware of you-- why I'd answer any of your questions.

You have claimed, among other things to be a writer. Competant
writers check their facts.

Actual writers also tend to have, oh, publishing credits?

True, but I have never seen him mention that he ever did it
professionally. I simply assumed that when he said he was a writer
he had some formal training...

or read part of a book about.

Or could... write...

(Like sentences and stuff)

Your (sic) correc...
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	24 Aug 2005 11:31:01 PM

In episode <CW9Pe.4047$Z87.2723@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, Mike Painter
burst into the room and exclaimed:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

In episode <Sq6Pe.781$dw4.679@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>, Mike Painter
burst into the room and exclaimed:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

#1 Explain why, with your expressed attitude towards me since

I've

been aware of you-- why I'd answer any of your questions.

You have claimed, among other things to be a writer. Competant
writers check their facts.

Actual writers also tend to have, oh, publishing credits?

True, but I have never seen him mention that he ever did it
professionally. I simply assumed that when he said he was a writer he
had some formal training...

or read part of a book about.

Or could... write...

(Like sentences and stuff)

Your (sic) correc...

Wanna bet it's more (hic) than (sic)?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.

User: "Louise Mallard"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	23 Aug 2005 07:53:39 AM

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:35:31 -0700, jw <jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124750354.765173.173720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Even I know that's unadulterated horseshit.
.

User: "Craig Chilton"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	29 Aug 2005 12:20:03 AM

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:53:39 -0400,
"Louise Mallard" <readmydigs@books.com> wrote:

John Weatherly ("jw") wrote:

"The Other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw.com> wrote:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote:

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Even I know that's unadulterated horseshit.

Actually, no. There's really no reason to think that there's no God
just because a collection of RRR-Cult-lemming fruitcakes are whining
about evolution.
Evolution is clearly a fact. The evidence for that is overwhelming.
So the RRR cultists are total loons for living in denial of that.
However... the evidence for intelligent design by the spiritual
entity that most people think of as God (whatever name they may a
apply to Him) ALSO is overwhelming.
So the most likely scenario is that God DID create the universe, as
mind-boggling as that feat seems. BUT--- that he *also* created the
process that we call evolution, at or about the same time.
Thus, the amazing thing is that RRR cultists claim to believe in
God, but then are so bone-stupid as to mentally LIMIT His capabilities.
Since a God omnipotent enough to create the universe probably
would find it a walk in the park by comparison to ALSO create an
evolutionary process by which it could progress with little or no further
input by Him.
Such DENIAL of God's omnipotence by the RRR cultists not only
comprises unadulterated horsesh*t... but also very **hypocritical**
horsesh*t on their part.
= = = = = = = = = =
So... I looked at this post in an attempt to see who my potential ally
of posts past might be, and look what happened. Found something
else of interest to comment on... and STILL don't know who you are...
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com>
.

User: "Sir Marksman"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	29 Aug 2005 12:18:30 PM

"Craig Chilton" <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:vr55h196k5h1grk99ld2b2lftlbgub04at@4ax.com...

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:53:39 -0400,
"Louise Mallard" <readmydigs@books.com> wrote:

John Weatherly ("jw") wrote:

"The Other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw.com> wrote:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote:

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach
the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Even I know that's unadulterated horseshit.

Actually, no.

Actually, it is.
.

User: "Ray Fischer"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	29 Aug 2005 12:37:51 AM

Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:53:39 -0400,
"Louise Mallard" <readmydigs@books.com> wrote:

John Weatherly ("jw") wrote:

"The Other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw.com> wrote:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote:

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Even I know that's unadulterated horseshit.

So far all arguments for ID fall into one of two categories:
1) Whining about evolution
2) Argument from ignorance.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.

User: "DanielSan"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	29 Aug 2005 12:23:35 AM

Craig Chilton wrote:

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:53:39 -0400,
"Louise Mallard" <readmydigs@books.com> wrote:

John Weatherly ("jw") wrote:

"The Other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw.com> wrote:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote:

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Even I know that's unadulterated horseshit.

Oh, really? Like what, for example?

So the most likely scenario is that God DID create the universe, as
mind-boggling as that feat seems. BUT--- that he *also* created the
process that we call evolution, at or about the same time.

Got proof?

Thus, the amazing thing is that RRR cultists claim to believe in
God, but then are so bone-stupid as to mentally LIMIT His capabilities.

I agree with this, even though I don't believe in "Him.:

Since a God omnipotent enough to create the universe probably
would find it a walk in the park by comparison to ALSO create an
evolutionary process by which it could progress with little or no further
input by Him.

Of course.

Such DENIAL of God's omnipotence by the RRR cultists not only
comprises unadulterated horsesh*t... but also very **hypocritical**
horsesh*t on their part.

Indeed. I still see no evidence, however, of ID, though I'm more than
willing to listen to that which is not logically fallacious. Thanks!
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "If God had intended us to walk, he wouldn't *
* have invented roller skates." --Willy Wonka *
****************************************************
.

User: "Craig Chilton"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	29 Aug 2005 12:47:05 AM

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:23:35 GMT,
DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:

Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote:

"Louise Mallard" <readmydigs@books.com> wrote:

John Weatherly ("jw") wrote:

"The Other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw.com> wrote:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote:

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Even I know that's unadulterated horseshit.

Oh, really? Like what, for example?

Countless things (literally) could be cited. But consider just two.
(1) Lacking some form of impetus, things **run down**. In science,
this is called entropy. They just decay into simpler and simpler things.
(2) The phenomenal complexity of the DNA found within any given
single cell of a person, a housecat... or even a *literal* lemming.

So the most likely scenario is that God DID create the universe, as
mind-boggling as that feat seems. BUT--- that he *also* created the
process that we call evolution, at or about the same time.

Got proof?

Not proof as much as a recognition of the extreme LIKELIHOOD
of that. (It amazes me, though, that any person would seek to live
in denial of that. it makes far more sense to believe in "intelligent
design" COMBINED with an evolutionary process, than it does to
subscribe to any other scenario that I can imagine.)

Thus, the amazing thing is that RRR cultists claim to believe in
God, but then are so bone-stupid as to mentally LIMIT His capabilities.

I agree with this, even though I don't believe in "Him.:

Yeah. They're a pretty confused lot, aren't they?

Of course.

Such DENIAL of God's omnipotence by the RRR cultists not only
comprises unadulterated horsesh*t... but also very **hypocritical**
horsesh*t on their part.

Indeed. I still see no evidence, however, of ID, though I'm more than
willing to listen to that which is not logically fallacious. Thanks!

Glad to contribute my thoughts. You're welcome.
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com>
.

User: "Sir Marksman"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	29 Aug 2005 12:18:51 PM

"Craig Chilton" <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:c975h1hkrg6vkjiogbeolrp2dumlfhg13r@4ax.com...

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:23:35 GMT,
DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:

Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote:

"Louise Mallard" <readmydigs@books.com> wrote:

John Weatherly ("jw") wrote:

"The Other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw.com> wrote:

"Rob Wade" <rob_c_wade_03@yahoo.com> wrote:

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach
the
***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately
known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Even I know that's unadulterated horseshit.

Actually, no.

Actually, it is.
.

User: "The Secretary of HomIntern"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	30 Aug 2005 07:10:11 PM

I was busily flonking away in alt.politics.homosexuality, when The Goddess
Eris Herself suddenly made me reply to Sir Marksman:

"Craig Chilton" wrote...

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:23:35 GMT, DanielSan wrote:

Craig Chilton wrote:

"Louise Mallard" wrote:

John Weatherly ("jw") wrote:

"The Other Donald" wrote:

"Rob Wade" wrote:

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach
the ***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Even I know that's unadulterated horseshit.

Actually, no.

Actually, it is.

Let me get this straight: Louise Mallard and Sir Marksman agree with The
Other Donald and Daniel-San that ID is hogwash, while Craig Chilton agrees
with Osprey and Weatherly on the opposite viewpoint -- but Louise, Donald,
Daniel, and Craig are all pro-choice, as opposed to SM, Heishman, and JW?
My world is askew...
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Hail Eris! "The personal _is_ political."
Bent Depraved N. Deviant *****-Smoker, Esq., Superfaggot
"Stupidity excuses nothing. It's only a reason...." -- Phxbrd
Economic Left/Right: -7.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
"The whining has just begun." -- John Wentzky
Killfiled by: directory; Anim8rfsk
"It's not nice to misrepresent Mother Nature."
.

User: "Louise Mallard"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	30 Aug 2005 07:20:18 PM

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:10:11 GMT, The Secretary of HomIntern
<�k��s�p�p@w��m.g��> wrote:

I was busily flonking away in alt.politics.homosexuality, when The Goddess
Eris Herself suddenly made me reply to Sir Marksman:

"Craig Chilton" wrote...

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:23:35 GMT, DanielSan wrote:

Craig Chilton wrote:

"Louise Mallard" wrote:

John Weatherly ("jw") wrote:

"The Other Donald" wrote:

"Rob Wade" wrote:

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should teach
the ***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Even I know that's unadulterated horseshit.

Actually, no.

Actually, it is.

What about that...
People have different views on different subjects regardless of their
similar opinions about abortion.
.

User: "The Secretary of HomIntern"
Title: Re: Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality	31 Aug 2005 06:20:28 AM

I was busily flonking away in alt.politics.homosexuality, when The Goddess
Eris Herself suddenly made me reply to Louise Mallard:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:10:11 GMT, The Secretary of HomIntern wrote:

I was busily flonking away in alt.politics.homosexuality, when The Goddess
Eris Herself suddenly made me reply to Sir Marksman:

"Craig Chilton" wrote...

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:23:35 GMT, DanielSan wrote:

Craig Chilton wrote:

"Louise Mallard" wrote:

John Weatherly ("jw") wrote:

"The Other Donald" wrote:

"Rob Wade" wrote:

Elementary schools shouldn't be teaching homosexuality

They don't, you fucking idiot.

In related news of the ignorant.....no public school should
teach
the ***** known as intelligent design, whose followers are
affectionately known as IDiots.

Anyone with a brain can look at the universe around us and see
Intelligent Design.

Even I know that's unadulterated horseshit.

Actually, no.

Actually, it is.

What about that...

People have different views on different subjects regardless of their
similar opinions about abortion.

The pro-lifers are just exactly as fanatically crazed (and inclined to
terrorist activity to get their way, as well as playing political games) as
the pro-ID crowd, though, and the two positions tend to be made up of
largely the same crowd of wingnut homophobic Dominionists, so discovering
Craig -- and possibly Ray -- in the latter position's number is distinctly
unsettling, like happening upon kiddie porn in a much-beloved and terribly
cool uncle's dresser...Methinks the Xian Reconstructionists have
infiltrated both major American political parties after all. The
implication for Ca