| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
19 Dec 2005 12:12:48 PM |
| Object: |
Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
An extract from The Humane Holocaust dating back to the early 70's.
"Which vision are we for? On the one hand, as the pattern of our
collective existence, the broiler house or factory-farm, in which the
concern is solely for the physical well-being of the livestock and the
financial well-being of the enterprise; on the other, mankind as a
family, all of whose members, whatever physical or mental qualities or
deficiencies they may have, are equally deserving of consideration in
the eyes of their creator, and whose existence has validity, not just
in itself, nor in relation to history, but in relation to a destiny
reaching beyond time and into eternity.
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on the
other, the sanctity of life.
The sanctity of life is, of course, a religious or transcendental
concept, and has no meaning otherwise; if there is no God, life cannot
have sanctity. By the same token, the quality of life is an earthly or
worldly concept, and can only be expressed legalistically, and in
materialist terms; the soul does not come into it.
It follows, at the end of our life span, that geriatrics unable any
longer to offer in the way of aesthetic, carnal and egotistic
satisfaction - in other words by virtue of their years losing out on
quality of life - should be subjected to euthanasia or mercy-killing,
and discreetly murdered.
On this basis, for instance, Beethoven would scarcely have been allowed
to be born; his heredity and family circumstances were atrocious, a
case history of syphilis, deafness and insanity. Today his mother's
pregnancy would be considered irresponsible and as requiring to be
terminated.
Dr. Johnson, when he was born, was scrofulous, and already showed signs
of the nervous disorders which plagued him all his life. He, too, under
present conditions, would probably not have been allowed to survive.
Imagine a young girl, unmarried and pregnant, who insists that the Holy
Ghost is responsible for her pregnancy, and that its outcome, according
to a vision she has been vouchsafed, would be the birth of a
long-awaited Messiah.
Not much quality of life potential there, I fancy, and it wouldn't take
the pregnancy and family planning pundits long to decide that our
Saviour, while still at the fetus stage, should be thrown away in
hospital waste.
.....To quieten any qualms Christians might have about abortion on
demand, an Anglican bishop has devised an appropriate prayer for use on
the occasion of an abortion which received the approval of the
Archbishop of Canterbury.
It runs "Into Thy hands we commit in trust the developing life we have
cut short" - though whether with the idea of God's continuing the
interrupted development elsewhere, or of extinguishing in Heaven the
life that was never born on earth is not clear.
In the case of euthanasia, a hymn may seem more in keeping with the
occasion - " The life thou gavest Lord, we've ended ..." Euthanasia, it
is true, has not yet been legalised except in some American states, but
notoriously it is being practised on an ever-increasing scale.
Already among old people there is reluctance to go into government
institutions for fear of being done away with. As for governments -
hard pressed financially as they all now are, and unable to economise
on defence expenditure for fear of laying themselves open to the charge
of jeopardising national security, or on welfare expenditure for fear
of losing votes - will they not look ever more longingly at the
possibility of making substantial savings by the simple expedient of
mercy-killing off the inmates of institutions for the incurably sick,
the senile old, the mentally deranged and other such?
With abortions and family planning ensuring a zero population growth
rate, and euthanasia disposing of useless mouths among the debilitated
old, besides mopping up intervening freaks, the pursuit of happiness
should be assured of at any rate financial viability. ...To destroy
life, be it in a fertilised ovum one second after conception, or in
some octogenarian or sufferer from a fatal illness, is the denial of
life and so the antithesis of love.
In life-denying terms, as we have seen, compassion easily becomes a
holocaust; garden suburbs and gulags derive from the same quest for
quality of life, and the surgeon's knife can equally be used to sustain
and extinguish life."
"Love toward men, but love without belief in God, very naturally leads
to the greatest coercion over men, and turns their lives completely
into hell on earth" Dostoevski.
END
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
20 Dec 2005 10:18:00 AM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Can you write some of your own crap for a change ?
It gets boring reading your pathetic cut-and-paste jobs.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable notion
that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often led to
accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what that
reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be skeptical of
someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
19 Dec 2005 11:24:09 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
An extract from The Humane Holocaust dating back to the early 70's.
"Which vision are we for? On the one hand, as the pattern of our
collective existence, the broiler house or factory-farm, in which the
concern is solely for the physical well-being of the livestock and the
financial well-being of the enterprise; on the other, mankind as a
family, all of whose members, whatever physical or mental qualities or
deficiencies they may have, are equally deserving of consideration in
the eyes of their creator, and whose existence has validity, not just
in itself, nor in relation to history, but in relation to a destiny
reaching beyond time and into eternity.
Well, since you put it that way...
.
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
19 Dec 2005 01:17:04 PM |
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Cut and paste troll "words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in
message news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on the
other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation, 'words of troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/
LC~ Reserves the right to refuse to suffer at other's demand.
"The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and
his own are the same."~ Stendhal
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
21 Dec 2005 03:53:22 PM |
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LC wrote:
Cut and paste troll "words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in
message news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on the
other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation, 'words of troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
And when you no longer have it, your relatives can murder you for your
money?
Capitalist to the very end. It must be awful to be born a capitalist.
.
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
21 Dec 2005 04:21:14 PM |
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<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135202001.954169.283280@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
Cut and paste troll "words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in
message news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on the
other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation, 'words of
troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
And when you no longer have it, your relatives can murder you for your
money?
Wow. Scared of your own relatives?
How very sad.
Perhaps you've never heard of a "will"?
Capitalist to the very end. It must be awful to be born a capitalist.
No one is born a "capitalist".
Otoh, it's clear you've done little to improve whatever inate reasoning
capacity you may have been born with.
Pity.
LC~ It would seem Louis forgot to bring an argument.
"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to stay, abstains from giving us
worthy evidence of the fact."~ George Elliot
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
21 Dec 2005 04:57:08 PM |
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LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135202001.954169.283280@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
Cut and paste troll "words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in
message news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on the
other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation, 'words of
troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
And when you no longer have it, your relatives can murder you for your
money?
Wow. Scared of your own relatives?
How very sad.
What makes you think I have any? My relatives have been murderd by
butchering capitalists.
Perhaps you've never heard of a "will"?
Yah...I sure did...you better hope that your beneficiary hasn't or
they will be gunnin for ya.
Capitalist to the very end. It must be awful to be born a capitalist.
No one is born a "capitalist".
How much you want to bet on that?
Otoh, it's clear you've done little to improve whatever inate reasoning
capacity you may have been born with.
Pity.
Doing nothing with it is better than dedicating it to jumping to wrong
conclusions...which is exactly how you employed yours. But then, what
can you expect from the likes of you.
LC~ It would seem Louis forgot to bring an argument.
It would seem that LC forgot to bring anything other than wrong
conclusions to this debate. The wrong answer is worse than no
answer...it does more damage in both the short and long run.
"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to stay, abstains from giving us
worthy evidence of the fact."~ George Elliot
.
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
21 Dec 2005 09:29:33 PM |
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<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135205828.026983.239590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135202001.954169.283280@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
Cut and paste troll "words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote
in message
news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on the
other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation, 'words of
troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
And when you no longer have it, your relatives can murder you for your
money?
Wow. Scared of your own relatives?
How very sad.
What makes you think I have any? My relatives have been murderd by
butchering capitalists.
Fascinating. Do tell?
Perhaps you've never heard of a "will"?
Yah...I sure did...you better hope that your beneficiary hasn't or
they will be gunnin for ya.
You _are_ receiving treatment for your paranoia, yes?
Capitalist to the very end. It must be awful to be born a capitalist.
No one is born a "capitalist".
How much you want to bet on that?
My...what a 'capitalist' thing to say.
Got irony?
Otoh, it's clear you've done little to improve whatever inate reasoning
capacity you may have been born with.
Pity.
Doing nothing with it is better than dedicating it to jumping to wrong
conclusions...which is exactly how you employed yours. But then, what
can you expect from the likes of you.
And yet, you still bring nothing resembling a rational argument to the
table.
If you'd just like to rant, I'd recommend you do so to your psychiatrist.
At least there's a point to that.
LC~ It would seem Louis forgot to bring an argument.
It would seem that LC forgot to bring anything other than wrong
conclusions to this debate.
I'm waiting for your argument, rather than just venting your paranoid
delusions.
When you formulate one, get back to me.
The wrong answer is worse than no answer...it does more damage in both the
short and long run.
<yawn>
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to stay, abstains from giving us
worthy evidence of the fact."~ George Elliot
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
22 Dec 2005 12:16:19 PM |
|
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LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135205828.026983.239590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135202001.954169.283280@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
Cut and paste troll "words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote
in message
news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on the
other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation, 'words of
troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
And when you no longer have it, your relatives can murder you for your
money?
Wow. Scared of your own relatives?
How very sad.
What makes you think I have any? My relatives have been murderd by
butchering capitalists.
Fascinating. Do tell?
Perhaps you've never heard of a "will"?
Yah...I sure did...you better hope that your beneficiary hasn't or
they will be gunnin for ya.
You _are_ receiving treatment for your paranoia, yes?
You'll never know what hit ya. Just like now.
Capitalist to the very end. It must be awful to be born a capitalist.
No one is born a "capitalist".
How much you want to bet on that?
My...what a 'capitalist' thing to say.
Got irony?
That was a test. As usual, you ain't got a clue.
Otoh, it's clear you've done little to improve whatever inate reasoning
capacity you may have been born with.
Pity.
Doing nothing with it is better than dedicating it to jumping to wrong
conclusions...which is exactly how you employed yours. But then, what
can you expect from the likes of you.
And yet, you still bring nothing resembling a rational argument to the
table.
Rational as defined by who? You? You don't even know the origins of
'rational'. How could you know its meaning?
If you'd just like to rant, I'd recommend you do so to your psychiatrist.
At least there's a point to that.
Did that in the past. He was quite impressed with the normal level of
my mental health. I think he kind of wanted some tips to help him out.
LC~ It would seem Louis forgot to bring an argument.
It would seem that LC forgot to bring anything other than wrong
conclusions to this debate.
I'm waiting for your argument, rather than just venting your paranoid
delusions.
What would you like to discuss? You haven't made it clear yet. I guess
your argument, if it could be called that, is that you should be
murdered. Is that a normal state of mind that decides something like
that?
Well maybe that's not your argument. Maybe you want to chage it a
couple of dozen times while you are making up your mind what it is.
Oddly enough...I'm against your being murdered. Are you saying that you
will argue against my position? If so, how do you expect to come out a
winner both the argument and promotion of the best possible outcome for
yourself (i.e. that you have a right to life)?
George Elliot
.
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
22 Dec 2005 09:50:59 PM |
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<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135275379.777331.287660@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135205828.026983.239590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135202001.954169.283280@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
Cut and paste troll "words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com>
wrote in message
news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on the
other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation, 'words of
troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
And when you no longer have it, your relatives can murder you for
your money?
Wow. Scared of your own relatives?
How very sad.
What makes you think I have any? My relatives have been murderd by
butchering capitalists.
Fascinating. Do tell?
No answer, loon?
I must say I'm intrigued that roving bands of murderous capitalists are
"butchering" people.
That deserves a follow up, if only for the chuckles.
Perhaps you've never heard of a "will"?
Yah...I sure did...you better hope that your beneficiary hasn't or
they will be gunnin for ya.
You _are_ receiving treatment for your paranoia, yes?
You'll never know what hit ya. Just like now.
I'm sure that must sense to someone. Just not to those of us that are sane.
Capitalist to the very end. It must be awful to be born a
capitalist.
No one is born a "capitalist".
How much you want to bet on that?
My...what a 'capitalist' thing to say.
Got irony?
That was a test.
And you failed.
Miserably.
But, take heart...you're used to that.
As usual, you ain't got a clue.
<snicker>
Otoh, it's clear you've done little to improve whatever inate
reasoning capacity you may have been born with.
Pity.
Doing nothing with it is better than dedicating it to jumping to wrong
conclusions...which is exactly how you employed yours. But then, what
can you expect from the likes of you.
And yet, you still bring nothing resembling a rational argument to the
table.
Rational as defined by who? You? You don't even know the origins of
'rational'. How could you know its meaning?
If you'd just like to rant, I'd recommend you do so to your psychiatrist.
At least there's a point to that.
Did that in the past.
I'll bet.
<snip insane rant>
LC~ Always amused by frothing lunatics in search of a point.
"Ordinarily he was insane, but he had lucid moments when he was merely
stupid."~ Heinrich Heine
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
23 Dec 2005 11:15:08 AM |
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LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135275379.777331.287660@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135205828.026983.239590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135202001.954169.283280@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
Cut and paste troll "words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com>
wrote in message
news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on the
other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation, 'words of
troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
And when you no longer have it, your relatives can murder you for
your money?
Wow. Scared of your own relatives?
How very sad.
What makes you think I have any? My relatives have been murderd by
butchering capitalists.
Fascinating. Do tell?
No answer, loon?
I must say I'm intrigued that roving bands of murderous capitalists are
"butchering" people.
That deserves a follow up, if only for the chuckles.
Maybe you should go to Iraq to find out about them. Idiot. You
know...the place that they didn't use chemical weapons...Falujah...
<snip>
.
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
23 Dec 2005 11:48:47 AM |
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<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135358108.292716.87390@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135275379.777331.287660@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135205828.026983.239590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135202001.954169.283280@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
Cut and paste troll "words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com>
wrote in message
news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on
the other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation, 'words
of troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
And when you no longer have it, your relatives can murder you for
your money?
Wow. Scared of your own relatives?
How very sad.
What makes you think I have any? My relatives have been murderd by
butchering capitalists.
Fascinating. Do tell?
No answer, loon?
I must say I'm intrigued that roving bands of murderous capitalists are
"butchering" people.
That deserves a follow up, if only for the chuckles.
Maybe you should go to Iraq to find out about them.
No thanks.
So, you're the Hussein boy they didn't get?
Pity.
<snip Louis' crap>
LC~ Maybe next time.
"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."~ William H.
Beveridge, 1944
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
23 Dec 2005 01:21:43 PM |
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LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135358108.292716.87390@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135275379.777331.287660@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135205828.026983.239590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135202001.954169.283280@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
Cut and paste troll "words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com>
wrote in message
news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life; on
the other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation, 'words
of troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
And when you no longer have it, your relatives can murder you for
your money?
Wow. Scared of your own relatives?
How very sad.
What makes you think I have any? My relatives have been murderd by
butchering capitalists.
Fascinating. Do tell?
No answer, loon?
I must say I'm intrigued that roving bands of murderous capitalists are
"butchering" people.
That deserves a follow up, if only for the chuckles.
Maybe you should go to Iraq to find out about them.
No thanks.
So, you're the Hussein boy they didn't get?
Pity.
I guess it must be tough to get anything right when you get in a habit
of being completely wrong. But lacking any direct experience in being
wrong, that's just a guess on my part. ;)
<snip Louis' crap>
LC~ Maybe next time.
"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."~ William H.
Beveridge, 1944
.
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
23 Dec 2005 02:40:49 PM |
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<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135365703.294180.323060@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135358108.292716.87390@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135275379.777331.287660@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135205828.026983.239590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
<yarrido@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1135202001.954169.283280@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LC wrote:
Cut and paste troll "words of truth"
<wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com>
wrote in message
news:1135015968.572079.73000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1542109/posts
EUTHANASIA
By Malcolm Muggeridge
Or, in simple terms, on the one hand, the quality of life;
on the other, the sanctity of life.
'Sanctity' of life is subject to personal interpretation,
'words of troll'.
Give me 'quality of life' anyday:
And when you no longer have it, your relatives can murder you
for your money?
Wow. Scared of your own relatives?
How very sad.
What makes you think I have any? My relatives have been murderd
by butchering capitalists.
Fascinating. Do tell?
No answer, loon?
I must say I'm intrigued that roving bands of murderous capitalists
are "butchering" people.
That deserves a follow up, if only for the chuckles.
Maybe you should go to Iraq to find out about them.
No thanks.
So, you're the Hussein boy they didn't get?
Pity.
I guess it must be tough to get anything right when you get in a habit
of being completely wrong.
Now that's something you actually know about.
But lacking any direct experience in being wrong, that's just a guess on
my part. ;)
Sorry, Louis, but you're wrong. Again:
"Ahhh...it seems I'm wrong."
From: (Louis Kuhelj)
Newsgroups: alt.abortion,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Jesus loves you
Date: 18 Dec 2002 08:07:24 -0800
Message-ID: <4056b7bd.0212180807.36b5f578@posting.google.com>
"Ok..so...I'm wrong. I certainly can be."
From: (Yarrido)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christianity
Date: 15 Sep 2003 14:31:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Why is Evolution Not Science?
Message-ID: <20030915103158.21232.00000715@mb-m13.aol.com>
"But we're both wrong".
From: (Yarrido)
Subject: Re: LIFE BEGINS AT THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION
Date: 2000/06/19
Message-ID: <20000619011800.02762.00000452@nso-ck.aol.com>#1/1
Looks like Louis being wrong is common.
Thanks for playing.
LC~ Was right that Louis is wrong.
"The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter
regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been
caught."~ H. L. Mencken
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| User: "PeteCresswell" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
19 Dec 2005 02:05:21 PM |
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Per LC:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/
I probably should be keeping my big mouth shut, but cannot resist.
The problem I see with any sort of officially-sanctioned suicide is a "slippery
slope" aspect.
Rest assured that somewhere in the bowels of the corporation that manages your
medical coverage there is an accountant that wants you dead as soon as possible
after a lethal - or even very expensive - disease is diagnosed.
Once assisted suicide is sanctioned, my expectation would be that palliative
care/pain relief will be increasingly difficult to come by when the much less
costly option of suicide is available.
Maybe somebody in a country where assisted suicide has been legalized/practiced
for, say, at least 10 years can comment on this.
--
PeteCresswell
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
19 Dec 2005 02:21:56 PM |
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"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:5c4eq1d1m4t93f4arbs6i7iehoslcas6ct@4ax.com...
Per LC:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/
I probably should be keeping my big mouth shut, but cannot resist.
The problem I see with any sort of officially-sanctioned suicide is a
"slippery slope" aspect.
Yes, the religious right absolutely loves this strawman.
Rest assured that somewhere in the bowels of the corporation that manages
your medical coverage there is an accountant that wants you dead as soon
as possible after a lethal - or even very expensive - disease is
diagnosed.
Another strawman.
Once assisted suicide is sanctioned, my expectation would be that
palliative care/pain relief will be increasingly difficult to come by when
the much less costly option of suicide is available.
Pain meds are relatively cheap and available.
Maybe somebody in a country where assisted suicide has been
legalized/practiced for, say, at least 10 years can comment on this.
I'll offer this once again for your edification:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/
--
PeteCresswell
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
19 Dec 2005 09:01:56 PM |
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On 19-Dec-2005, "LC" <LCisnot@this.com> wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:5c4eq1d1m4t93f4arbs6i7iehoslcas6ct@4ax.com...
Per LC:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/
I probably should be keeping my big mouth shut, but cannot resist.
The problem I see with any sort of officially-sanctioned suicide is a
"slippery slope" aspect.
Yes, the religious right absolutely loves this strawman.
I am not by any stretch of the imagination a Religious Reich fundie,
but I have the same worries.
Susan
Rest assured that somewhere in the bowels of the corporation that
manages
your medical coverage there is an accountant that wants you dead as soon
as possible after a lethal - or even very expensive - disease is
diagnosed.
Another strawman.
Once assisted suicide is sanctioned, my expectation would be that
palliative care/pain relief will be increasingly difficult to come by
when
the much less costly option of suicide is available.
Pain meds are relatively cheap and available.
Maybe somebody in a country where assisted suicide has been
legalized/practiced for, say, at least 10 years can comment on this.
I'll offer this once again for your edification:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/
--
PeteCresswell
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
20 Dec 2005 09:07:18 AM |
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<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:EuKpf.30090$eI5.11106@trnddc05...
On 19-Dec-2005, "LC" <LCisnot@this.com> wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:5c4eq1d1m4t93f4arbs6i7iehoslcas6ct@4ax.com...
Per LC:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/
I probably should be keeping my big mouth shut, but cannot resist.
The problem I see with any sort of officially-sanctioned suicide is a
"slippery slope" aspect.
Yes, the religious right absolutely loves this strawman.
I am not by any stretch of the imagination a Religious Reich fundie,
but I have the same worries.
How so?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
20 Dec 2005 11:13:39 PM |
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On 20-Dec-2005, "LC" <LCisnot@this.com> wrote:
<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:EuKpf.30090$eI5.11106@trnddc05...
On 19-Dec-2005, "LC" <LCisnot@this.com> wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:5c4eq1d1m4t93f4arbs6i7iehoslcas6ct@4ax.com...
Per LC:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/
I probably should be keeping my big mouth shut, but cannot resist.
The problem I see with any sort of officially-sanctioned suicide is a
"slippery slope" aspect.
Yes, the religious right absolutely loves this strawman.
I am not by any stretch of the imagination a Religious Reich fundie,
but I have the same worries.
How so?
What do you mean?
I also think that it could lead to a slippery slope effect.
I don't see that it's that great a strawman.
Susan
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
21 Dec 2005 10:17:57 AM |
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<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message news:7w5qf.11760$CL.7509@trnddc04...
On 20-Dec-2005, "LC" <LCisnot@this.com> wrote:
<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:EuKpf.30090$eI5.11106@trnddc05...
On 19-Dec-2005, "LC" <LCisnot@this.com> wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:5c4eq1d1m4t93f4arbs6i7iehoslcas6ct@4ax.com...
Per LC:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/
I probably should be keeping my big mouth shut, but cannot resist.
The problem I see with any sort of officially-sanctioned suicide is
a "slippery slope" aspect.
Yes, the religious right absolutely loves this strawman.
I am not by any stretch of the imagination a Religious Reich fundie,
but I have the same worries.
How so?
What do you mean?
I'm asking for you to explain exactly how you feel your fears might be
realized.
Are you fearful that at some point "the government" or your health provider
might wish to euthanise you against your wishes? Some Orwellian nightmare
playing out?
I also think that it could lead to a slippery slope effect.
I don't see that it's that great a strawman.
Well, having personally had some experience-unfortunately- with the Oregon
law, I'm interested in hearing your argument.
Oregon's "Death with Dignity" law, which focuses on assisting the terminally
ill who choose to end their suffering, is an excellent example of a reasoned
and compassionate way to allow people to have a say in confronting *their*
end of life issues. There are *numerous* safeguards built into it:
(http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/thelaw.asp)
This law was voted on (twice, and approved both times) by the people of
Oregon, despite being subjected to a massive disinformation campaign by
assorted 'Right to Life' groups, and has been continuously challenged by the
Bush Justice Dept. In fact, they've now appealed it all the way to the
SCOTUS.
I've seen how this law works firsthand, and feel it very effectively allows
those who wish to have some control over their end of life care to do so.
I am interested in hearing your 'slippery slope' argument. To date, all I've
heard is from opponents of this law is fear-mongering and the RR's
theologically-based finger waving, neither of which have been terribly
convincing.
LC~ My life, my right.
"Ultimately, the only power to which man should aspire is that which he
exercises over himself."~Elie Wiesel
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| User: "PeteCresswell" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
21 Dec 2005 06:58:13 PM |
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Per LC:
I'm asking for you to explain exactly how you feel your fears might be
realized.
Emphasis on "feel". I have nothing concrete to back up my feelings except a
perhaps jaundiced view of human/corporate nature.
I would expect the realization to come in the form of decreasingly-available
palliative care.
As I said in my OP, maybe somebody who lives in a nation that has had legalized
assisted suicide for more than the last 10 years can shed some light from actual
experience.
--
PeteCresswell
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
21 Dec 2005 08:39:49 PM |
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On 21-Dec-2005, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
Per LC:
I'm asking for you to explain exactly how you feel your fears might be
realized.
Emphasis on "feel". I have nothing concrete to back up my feelings except
a perhaps jaundiced view of human/corporate nature.
That's one way of putting it.
I can't really put my finger on exactly anything different, so I will go
with that,
too.
I would expect the realization to come in the form of
decreasingly-available
palliative care.
Yes. Once it becomes an accepted alternative, I am worried that it will be
suggested more than it should be.
As I said in my OP, maybe somebody who lives in a nation that has had
legalized assisted suicide for more than the last 10 years can shed some
light from actual experience.
This would be a more authoritative voice.
Susan
--
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
21 Dec 2005 09:28:06 PM |
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<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Vloqf.36668$aU4.29960@trnddc06...
On 21-Dec-2005, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
Per LC:
I'm asking for you to explain exactly how you feel your fears might be
realized.
Emphasis on "feel". I have nothing concrete to back up my feelings
except a perhaps jaundiced view of human/corporate nature.
That's one way of putting it.
I can't really put my finger on exactly anything different, so I will go
with that, too.
Respectfully, and to both of you, isn't it somewhat irrational to fear
something and yet be unable to express exactly why?
I would expect the realization to come in the form of
decreasingly-available palliative care.
Yes. Once it becomes an accepted alternative, I am worried that it will be
suggested more than it should be.
Don't get me wrong...I'm as cynical as the next guy, but do you really have
_that little faith_ in individual rights? Did you read the redundant
safeguards in place in the Oregon law?
Given a lingering and painful terminal diagnosis, would you deny a loved
one their wish to die on their terms?
As I said in my OP, maybe somebody who lives in a nation that has had
legalized assisted suicide for more than the last 10 years can shed some
light from actual experience.
This would be a more authoritative voice.
Well, I've offered Oregon's DwD site previously in this very thread.
If you review it, you'll see that the *state* of Oregon has had "legalized
assisted suicide" in place for _over_ 10 years:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/ballotmeasures.asp
It's worked splendidly for it's intended purpose, despite repeatedly
having to fight off 'slippery slope'arguments from the Bush administration
and the religious right.
Feel free to review it. Lots of _facts_ there.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
22 Dec 2005 02:16:47 AM |
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On 21-Dec-2005, "LC" <LCisnot@this.com> wrote:
<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Vloqf.36668$aU4.29960@trnddc06...
On 21-Dec-2005, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
Per LC:
I'm asking for you to explain exactly how you feel your fears might be
realized.
Emphasis on "feel". I have nothing concrete to back up my feelings
except a perhaps jaundiced view of human/corporate nature.
That's one way of putting it.
I can't really put my finger on exactly anything different, so I will go
with that, too.
Respectfully, and to both of you, isn't it somewhat irrational to fear
something and yet be unable to express exactly why?
No. Some days are just like that.
I would expect the realization to come in the form of
decreasingly-available palliative care.
Yes. Once it becomes an accepted alternative, I am worried that it will
be
suggested more than it should be.
Don't get me wrong...I'm as cynical as the next guy, but do you really
have
_that little faith_ in individual rights?
Individual rights, no.
Neither of us are talking about the *patients* doing the wrong thing.
Did you read the redundant
safeguards in place in the Oregon law?
Perhaps I was thinking subconsciously of something I remembered now,
such as certain hospitals in the UK killing off older patients to save the
cost
of their care.
Given a lingering and painful terminal diagnosis, would you deny a loved
one their wish to die on their terms?
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding at work, here.
I am all for assisted suicide & living wills.
I, however, do not want euthanasia to be "available" for people
for whom there are no such previous arrangements in place.
Susan
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
22 Dec 2005 08:38:00 AM |
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<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message news:Phtqf.798$2B5.158@trnddc01...
On 21-Dec-2005, "LC" <LCisnot@this.com> wrote:
<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Vloqf.36668$aU4.29960@trnddc06...
On 21-Dec-2005, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
Per LC:
I'm asking for you to explain exactly how you feel your fears might
be realized.
Emphasis on "feel". I have nothing concrete to back up my feelings
except a perhaps jaundiced view of human/corporate nature.
That's one way of putting it.
I can't really put my finger on exactly anything different, so I will
go with that, too.
Respectfully, and to both of you, isn't it somewhat irrational to fear
something and yet be unable to express exactly why?
No. Some days are just like that.
I would expect the realization to come in the form of
decreasingly-available palliative care.
Yes. Once it becomes an accepted alternative, I am worried that it will
be suggested more than it should be.
Don't get me wrong...I'm as cynical as the next guy, but do you really
have _that little faith_ in individual rights?
Individual rights, no.
Neither of us are talking about the *patients* doing the wrong thing.
Did you read the redundant
safeguards in place in the Oregon law?
Perhaps I was thinking subconsciously of something I remembered now,
such as certain hospitals in the UK killing off older patients to save the
cost of their care.
That's shameful on many levels, not the least of which would be the lack
oversight of family or loved ones.
Given a lingering and painful terminal diagnosis, would you deny a loved
one their wish to die on their terms?
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding at work, here.
I am all for assisted suicide & living wills.
That's been my point: That 'assisted suicide' should be an option for the
hopelessly ill. For *them* to have the opportunity to have made that
decision.
I, however, do not want euthanasia to be "available" for people
for whom there are no such previous arrangements in place.
If you mean those who's issues are transient or eminently treatable (the
depressed person, for example), I would certainly agree.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
22 Dec 2005 04:27:49 PM |
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On 22-Dec-2005, "LC" <LCisnot@this.com> wrote:
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding at work, here.
I am all for assisted suicide & living wills.
That's been my point: That 'assisted suicide' should be an option for the
hopelessly ill. For *them* to have the opportunity to have made that
decision.
So we are all on the same page.
Amazing how the Usenet can so often be a *barrier* to communication.....
Susan
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| User: "PeteCresswell" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
22 Dec 2005 08:28:46 AM |
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Per LC:
Don't get me wrong...I'm as cynical as the next guy, but do you really have
_that little faith_ in individual rights?
Yes. Places like Buchenwald, for starters. For a more immediate example, the
Ford thing where people were burned horribly and/or killed in minor rear end
collisions because somebody at Ford figured the total legal settlements would be
less than the dollar-and-some-cents-per-car it would cost to remedy a faulty gas
tank design.
Those types of people are liberally seeded throughout our society. I'm not
religious I think that "Original Sin" is a pretty good working hypothesis.
Did you read the redundant safeguards in place in the Oregon law?
No, but I take it as an article of faith that, for various reasons, laws evolve.
That's part of why I specified "more than 10 years" as criteria citation of
another nation where the practice was legal.
Given a lingering and painful terminal diagnosis, would you deny a loved
one their wish to die on their terms?
That's an awfully heavy subject and I would not presume to judge such a
situation since I am (thankfully) not part of one.
However I definitely would not make suicide something that the health care
industry participates in and can save great amounts of money by encouraging.
--
PeteCresswell
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
22 Dec 2005 09:25:11 AM |
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"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:b1dlq1dm3ucldk3gdm2tud0gmred3jsrqv@4ax.com...
Per LC:
Don't get me wrong...I'm as cynical as the next guy, but do you really
have _that little faith_ in individual rights?
Yes. Places like Buchenwald, for starters. For a more immediate example,
the Ford thing where people were burned horribly and/or killed in minor
rear end collisions because somebody at Ford figured the total legal
settlements would be less than the dollar-and-some-cents-per-car it would
cost to remedy a faulty gas tank design.
I think you've gone off a bit of a tangent there. Quite a bit of one, at
that.
Those types of people are liberally seeded throughout our society. I'm
not religious I think that "Original Sin" is a pretty good working
hypothesis.
Did you read the redundant safeguards in place in the Oregon law?
No, but I take it as an article of faith that, for various reasons, laws
evolve.
Your cynicism exceeds mine by no small amount.
That's part of why I specified "more than 10 years" as criteria citation
of another nation where the practice was legal.
If you had of read it, you would have seen that the law *has* been in place
"more than ten years".
Facts are your friend.
Given a lingering and painful terminal diagnosis, would you deny a loved
one their wish to die on their terms?
That's an awfully heavy subject and I would not presume to judge such a
situation since I am (thankfully) not part of one.
However I definitely would not make suicide something that the health care
industry participates in and can save great amounts of money by
encouraging.
Your premise is flawed: The health care industry *makes* "great amounts" of
money from the terminally ill.
Of course, a representative of your insurance company may want to pay you a
late night 'visit'. And not to bring flowers.
--
PeteCresswell
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| User: "PeteCresswell" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
22 Dec 2005 02:27:59 PM |
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Per LC:
If you had of read it, you would have seen that the law *has* been in place
"more than ten years".
Facts are your friend.
Oregon is a state, not a nation and I suspect that has a major "braking" effect
on any slippery-slope tendencies. That's why I specified "nation".
Ad-hominem attacks in other posts (not yours...) aside, I would reiterate that I
would still like to hear comments on the availability of palliative care from
someone who lives in a nation/country that has had legalized physician-assisted
suicide for at least 10 years.
Actually, I have heard from such a person in the sense that I once saw somebody
on a TV show that claimed to be an expert in the field. Problem is that it was
a long time ago and I cannot recall enough specifics to cite anything except his
statement that palliative care had become "essentially unavailable" in the
country that he was commenting on.
But that was a long time ago and I really would like to hear from somebody with
current experience in one of those countries.
--
PeteCresswell
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| User: "George" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
22 Dec 2005 03:10:26 PM |
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On 2005-12-22 12:27:59 -0800, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> said:
Per LC:
If you had of read it, you would have seen that the law *has* been in place
"more than ten years".
Facts are your friend.
Oregon is a state, not a nation and I suspect that has a major "braking" effect
on any slippery-slope tendencies. That's why I specified "nation".
Ad-hominem attacks in other posts (not yours...) aside, I would
reiterate that I
would still like to hear comments on the availability of palliative care from
someone who lives in a nation/country that has had legalized physician-assisted
suicide for at least 10 years.
Actually, I have heard from such a person in the sense that I once saw somebody
on a TV show that claimed to be an expert in the field. Problem is
that it was
a long time ago and I cannot recall enough specifics to cite anything
except his
statement that palliative care had become "essentially unavailable" in the
country that he was commenting on.
But that was a long time ago and I really would like to hear from somebody with
current experience in one of those countries.
As usual, the true Euthanasia is the responsibility of Bsh and the Republicans.
<http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/21/katrina.hospital/index.html>
"These were grown men who were buckling down to their knees, because
they were saying they couldn't believe FEMA was making them stay there
and watch people dying. They had decided not to evacuate the DNR
patients," McManus said, referring to the patients who had signed "do
not resuscitate" forms."
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| User: "Bonnie Bitch" |
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| Title: Re: Euthanasia: The Humane Holocaust |
22 Dec 2005 10:29:57 PM |
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On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:27:59 -0800, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid>
Per LC:
If you had of read it, you would have seen that the law *has* been in place
"more than ten years".
Facts are your friend.
Oregon is a state, not a nation and I suspect that has a major "braking" effect
on any slippery-slope tendencies. That's why I specified "nation".
Ad-hominem attacks in other posts (not yours...) aside, I would reiterate that I
would still like to hear comments on the availability of palliative care from
someone who lives in a nation/country that has had legalized physician-assisted
suicide for at least 10 years.
That'd be me, much to your upcoming chagrin.
In the Netherlands, physician assisted suicide is available upon
request -- BUT ONLY AFTER:
1. The patient has been diagnosed by at least two doctors with an
incurable, terminal illness, preferably one for which there is no
treatment, either.
2. The patient has made a formal, written request for physician
assisted suicide.
3. The patient has demonstrated to the satisfaction of at least two
doctors and possibly a judge in a court of law, that the patient is of
sound mind, i.e., demonstrates enough mental competency that the
physicians can be assured that the decision was made freely and
without coercion.
My uncle is a retired oncologist who has had more than one patient
literally beg for his help in ending their suffering.
There is no point in continuing life when there is no hope of
recovery, when the patient is in so much pain that they have no
quality of life, and when it is the patient's choice to end it.
This whole notion of forcing a person's autonomic functions to
continue against their own wishes while they are suffering is inhumane
and barbaric. We treat barnyard animals far better than that.
But, what really honks me off is that the people who ***** and moan
about the Netherlands' assisted suicide protocols are under the
ignorant delusion that the Dutch summarily execute anyone who is
elderly, infirm, or terminally ill. That is a lie, plain and simple.
And you are perpetuating that lie.
It comes as no surprise, though, that those who object are,
invariably, Americans and christstains.
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