| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
21 Apr 2007 11:55:32 PM |
| Object: |
Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
As I've said before, there's 2 sides to every story.
http://bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=25463
WASHINGTON (BP)--Congress has initiated a renewed attempt to expand
hate crimes protections to homosexuals and transgendered individuals,
and opponents have mounted a counter effort they realize will be
difficult to sustain on Capitol Hill.
Bills to expand the categories protected under hate crimes laws to
include homosexuality and other sexual identities have been introduced
in both the Senate and House of Representatives. A subcommittee of the
House Judiciary Committee held a hearing on the issue April 17, and a
full committee vote is expected soon, reportedly during the week of
April 23-27.
While the current hate crimes law protects traits such as race,
religion and national origin, the new legislation would grant
protection based on lifestyle, say foes of the measure. They also say
it would move federal law toward punishing thoughts and beliefs, since
the motivation of a person charged with a hate crime would have to be
evaluated.
Pro-family organizations, including the Southern Baptist Ethics &
Religious Liberty Commission, already have been working to rally
opposition to the measures. Exodus International, a ministry that
seeks to help people out of homosexuality through the Gospel of Jesus,
had about 50 people joining others April 17-18 to explain to Senate
and House members and their staffs their opposition.
For Exodus President Alan Chambers, it is a matter of justice.
"[R]eally what we're saying is this legislation is unfair, because it
means that I was more valuable as a homosexual than I am today as a
former homosexual," Chambers told reporters before he began visiting
on Capitol Hill April 17. "You know, this law would give special
protection to those who are gay and lesbian, yet it doesn't give any
protection to those who are children. That's saying that a gay man is
more valuable than a child, is more valuable than a grandmother, is
more valuable than the majority of Americans. That's just not fair."
The bill is "primarily being pushed by those in the homosexual
activist community, really as a reinforcement that homosexuality is
valid, that they need protection, and that's just not the case," said
Chambers, who left homosexuality 15 years ago and has been married for
more than nine years. "[Homosexuals are] protected as much as I am
protected under the Fourteenth Amendment."
The House bill is the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention
Act, H.R 1592. Rep. John Conyers, D.-Mich., has 137 cosponsors for his
bill. The Senate version, S. 1105, has the same title, except the name
of Matthew Shepard has been attached to it. Shepard was the young
homosexual who was beaten and left for dead tied to a fence in Wyoming
in 1998. Sen. Edward Kennedy, D.-Mass., has 42 cosponsors for his
proposal.
The House and Senate both have passed versions in separate sessions in
the past, but they have yet to agree on a measure to send to the White
House. It appears there are enough votes to gain passage in this
Congress, especially since Democrats control both houses. The only
apparent hope for preventing the legislation from becoming law is a
veto by President Bush.
Opponents of new hate crimes legislation do not have a veto commitment
from Bush yet, but they are seeking one, Chambers said.
Chambers said even some friends of Exodus in Congress are having a
difficult time voting against the measure.
"They don't want to make it sound like they are voting for violence,"
he said.
"The tide is against us," Chambers said. "I believe that this is a
great opportunity for us to share the truth ... about freedom, the
truth about this bill and really to reinforce the fact that hate
crimes legislation is unnecessary -- for one reason, the FBI uniform
crime report has shown that bias-motivated crimes are on the decrease.
Crimes against those who are gay, or who are perceived to be gay, have
decreased over the last several years. So it seems like in a free and
tolerant society where Americans are beginning to learn to treat their
neighbor like they'd like to be treated, we're seeing a decrease in
some of these crimes. And that's a good thing."
The bills would authorize the U.S. attorney general to provide
assistance to state and local officials in the investigation and
prosecution of hate crimes, as well as expand the categories to
include "sexual orientation" and "gender identity," among others. The
legislation says a hate crime is one "motivated by prejudice based on
the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin,
gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of the
victim, or is a violation of the state, local, or tribal hate crime
laws."
"Sexual orientation" includes homosexuality. "Gender identity" is a
"person's innate sense of gender," which may be different than his
sex, according to the website of the Human Rights Campaign, which
describes itself as the country's largest "lesbian, gay, bisexual and
transgender" political organization. Transgender is an umbrella term
for "people who live all or substantial portions of their lives
expressing an innate sense of gender other than their birth sex,"
according to HRC. The transgender category includes transsexuals and
cross-dressers.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
22 Apr 2007 12:25:30 AM |
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J Young <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
As I've said before, there's 2 sides to every story.
Your side and the moral side.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
22 Apr 2007 01:09:25 AM |
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J Young wrote:
As I've said before, there's 2 sides to every story.
http://bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=25463
Sounds like Chambers is lying to advance an agendum. I doubt he was a
homosexual.
--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************
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| User: "Dionisio" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
22 Apr 2007 02:41:06 PM |
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J Young wrote:
For Exodus President Alan Chambers, it is a matter of justice.
Hmm... I suppose that there just might be some discrimination against an organization that
has all the efficacy of 3%.
Should that be a crime? Perhaps. After all, any other "treatment option" which had such a
dismal "success rate" would likely be severely sanctioned and run out of town.
Yep. I can understand why they're concerned.
'Tis a curious argument though: "We seek justice to shield us from justice."
Curious indeed.
--
And the Thought of the Moment (TM) is:
The most fortunate type of prince, according to Machiavelli -- the man the Elizabethans
loved to hate -- is the prince of the church: These princes alone have states without
defending them, have subjects without governing them, and their states, not being
defended, are not taken from them; their subjects, not being governed, do not resent it,
and neither think nor are capable of alienating themselves from them.
(Brought to you by SigChanger. http://www.phranc.nl)
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| User: "Parsifal" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
22 Apr 2007 01:58:01 AM |
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On 22 Apr., 06:55, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
As I've said before, there's 2 sides to every story.
Your stories have only one side: the wront and evil one.
http://bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=25463
What? A new source?
Let's check...
Ah : "Baptist Press"... News with a Christian perspective...
I should have known... Is this the best you can do?
OK, here we go again: if you want to be taken seriously, how about
using serious source?
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| User: "bobandcarole" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
22 Apr 2007 07:52:28 PM |
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On Apr 22, 2:58?am, Parsifal <jeanpascalvac...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 22 Apr., 06:55, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
As I've said before, there's 2 sides to every story.
Your stories have only one side: the wront and evil one.
http://bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=25463
What? A new source?
Let's check...
Ah : "Baptist Press"... News with a Christian perspective...
I should have known... Is this the best you can do?
OK, here we go again: if you want to be taken seriously, how about
using serious source?
Get out of the closet...NOW
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
23 Apr 2007 11:38:14 AM |
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On 22 Apr 2007, bobandcarole <bobandcarole777@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 22, 2:58?am, Parsifal <jeanpascalvac...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 22 Apr., 06:55, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
As I've said before, there's 2 sides to every story.
Your stories have only one side: the wront and evil one.
http://bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=25463
What? A new source?
Let's check...
Ah : "Baptist Press"... News with a Christian perspective...
I should have known... Is this the best you can do?
OK, here we go again: if you want to be taken seriously, how about
using serious source?
Get out of the closet...NOW
Carol and Bob I am going to stab you and your children if you do not get
OFF the newsgroup.
DIE JEWS.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
23 Apr 2007 02:53:27 PM |
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On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:38:14 +0200 there was an Ancient "Douglas
Berry" <fritz@spamexpire-200704.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> who
stoppeth one in alt.atheism
Path: newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!elnk-atl-nf2!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!newsfeed.kamp.net!newsfeed.kamp.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!feeder.news-service.com!feeder1.cambrium.nl!feed.tweaknews.nl!news.wiretrip.org!news.dizum.com!sewer-output!mail2news-x3!mail2news-x2!mail2news
Subject: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill
Newsgroups: alt.abortion,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
References: <1177217732.701439.78760@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> <1177225081.112607.233010@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> <1177225081.112607.233010@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> <1177289548.684479.294220@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
From: "Douglas Berry" <fritz@spamexpire-200704.rodent.frell.theremailer.net>
X-No-Archive: yes
Message-ID: <be12eb6fa43d552c9a54eddcf980d921@msgid.frell.theremailer.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:38:14 +0200
Mail-To-News-Contact:
Organization:
Xref: news.earthlink.net alt.abortion:1181976 alt.atheism:4975077 alt.politics.homosexuality:1224779
X-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:39:42 PDT (newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net)
This did not come from me, and whoever sent it is cordially invited to
come out to San Jose where I shall express my displeasure with being
crudely forged with a baseball bat.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "Anlatt the Builder" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
22 Apr 2007 03:00:38 AM |
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On Apr 21, 9:55 pm, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
While the current hate crimes law protects traits such as race,
religion and national origin, the new legislation would grant
protection based on lifestyle, say foes of the measure. They also say
it would move federal law toward punishing thoughts and beliefs, since
the motivation of a person charged with a hate crime would have to be
evaluated.
No more or less so than the existing hate crimes laws. Are they
opposing them too, or do they approve of what they are calling
"thought crimes" when it comes to race, creed, or color?
By the way, existing hate crime laws protect *religion*, which is
completely and entirely a choice - much more so than sexual
orientation is. If sexual orientation is to be considered a
"lifestyle," then being Jewish or Lutheran should also be considered a
lifestyle.
For Exodus President Alan Chambers, it is a matter of justice.
"[R]eally what we're saying is this legislation is unfair, because it
means that I was more valuable as a homosexual than I am today as a
former homosexual," Chambers told reporters before he began visiting
on Capitol Hill April 17. "You know, this law would give special
protection to those who are gay and lesbian, yet it doesn't give any
protection to those who are children. That's saying that a gay man is
more valuable than a child, is more valuable than a grandmother, is
more valuable than the majority of Americans. That's just not fair."
This is a lie.
Let me repeat, a lie.
As Alan Chambers well knows, the law actually grants hate-crime status
to any crime that is motivated by hatred on the basis of sexual
oritnetation or perceived sexual orientation. This includes:
- a gay man attacked by a straight man because the straight man hates
gays.
- a straight man attacked by a gay man because the gay man hates
straights.
- a gay man attacked by another gay man because the attacker hates
gays. (There are a number of gay-bashers in prison who fit this
description.)
- a straight woman attacked by a striaght man because the straight
man hates lesbians, and mistakenly thought his victim was a lesbain.
In particular, if an Alan Chambers is attacked by someone who hates
gays and thinks Chambers is gay (one could think of a dozen reasons
this could happen; use your imagination), the law protects Chambers.
And if Chambers is attacked by someone who hates straights and
believes Chambers is straight, the law protects Chambers there too.
So the statement "it means that I was more valuable as a homosexual
than I am today as a former homosexual" is an outight lie.
(By the way, some cases where the law doesn't apply:
- a straight man attacks a gay man because he wants to steal his
money; he doesn't know or care that the victim is gay.
- a gay man attacks a lesbian because she has red hair, and he's
always hated people with red hair.
.... and so on.
As you can see, the law doesn't treat homosexuals lives as more
valuable than heterosexual lives.)
It is true that, IN PRACTICE, the law comes up most often when dealing
with straight men attacking gay men. This is not because the law is
unfair or discriminatory; it's because straight men attack gay men far
more than the other way around. There are two ways to fix this
"problem:"
(1) Gay men should start attacking straight men more often; or
(2) Straight men should stop attacking gay men.
Take your pick.
As for the comments about "children and grandmothers," it should be
enough to note that this applies, not just to hate-crime laws dealing
with sexual orientation, but to all hate crime laws. So unless
Chambers is against all such laws, this is a phony argument.
But it's also worth noting that there ARE special laws dealing with
violence against children, elder abuse, and the like. So even there
he's not telling the truth. Again.
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| User: "ScottyFLL" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
22 Apr 2007 08:55:22 AM |
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On Apr 22, 12:55 am, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
Ex-gays
LOL
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| User: "Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-gays build opposition to hate crimes bill |
22 Apr 2007 05:46:09 AM |
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On Apr 22, 5:55 am, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
As I've said before, there's 2 sides to every story.
There are usually more than two, but one is usually nearer to the
truth than others.
Here's a clue: If you need to resort to invective to make your case,
then you are very likely to be further from the truth than any of the
rest of the possible points of view. In extremis, certain individuals
e.g. "J Young" aka iBen, commit a hate crime every time they breathe
out.
Try not breathing in, that way you won't need to breathe out.
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