"Attila" <prochoice@here.now> wrote in message
news:eqcvk11mhguq0ejredbmf1fk1m2atfpe7t@4ax.com...

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:01:56 -0500, "Janice M. Voak"
<blondie@bealenet.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<74a4f$434f0396$3f77c345$12953@BEALENET.COM> wrote:

"Attila" <prochoice@here.now> wrote in message
news:tpjsk11vljp3voi0f09t23k590437st4fs@4ax.com...

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:09:57 -0500, "Janice M. Voak"
<blondie@bealenet.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<1c97c$434e4ea7$cf4e7626$24851@BEALENET.COM> wrote:

"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message
news:diksfp$mr4$1@bolt.sonic.net...

Janice M. Voak <blondie@bealenet.com> wrote:

"Mark Sebree" <sebree@infionline.net> wrote in message

*Don't tell GOD how big your storm is.
*Tell the storm how big your GOD is!

Wrong.

They must have known something that you don't
know, which means that child was viable and was a human being before
birth,
or they could not have prosecuted him for two deaths, that of His wife and
His unborn child. This is your mans law for you. They say one thing and
do
another.

It seems I know more than you know.

This came right off of the site that contains Scott Peterson's guilty
findings. Here it is, so you can argue some more about things that you know
nothing about.
Monday, after deliberation over a period of three days, the jury decided on
recommending the death penalty for Scott Peterson. Peterson, 32, who was
convicted of murder in the first degree with special circumstances of his
wife Laci Peterson and thier unborn son, Conner. Formal sentencing is
scheduled for February 25; where Judge Alfred A. Delucchi can choose whether
or not to accept the jury's decision or reduce the sentence to life in
prison.

Now, you can quote me all of the California Penal Codes that you want, but
here is the verdict, right off the site.

What does it say??? Or can you
read it??? Doesn't it say that he was convicted of murder in the first
degree, with special circumstances, of his wife Laci and "THEIR UNBORN SON,
CONNER?"

California Penal Code

187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being,
or a fetus, with malice aforethought.
(b) This section shall not apply to any person who commits
an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the
following apply:
(1) The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act,
Article 2 (commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of
Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code.
(2) The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and
surgeon' s certificate, as defined in the Business and
Professions Code, in a case where, to a medical certainty,
the result of childbirth would be death of the mother of the
fetus or where her death from childbirth, although not
medically certain, would be substantially certain or more
likely than not.
(3) The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to
by the mother of the fetus.
(c) Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the
prosecution of any person under any other provision of law.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199

If you look at 187 (a) you will see the law defines murder as "the
unlawful killing of a human being" OR a fetus. It does not say a
fetus is a human being. In fact the law clearly says a fetus is not a
human being but a second category of organism that is included under
this murder law.

It could just as easily have said "the unlawful killing of a human
being" or a fetus or a goat. In which case you best not be killing
goats.

There are so many people in this
world, who would love to have a child and can't, so why don't they just
adopt the child to someone like that, instead of killing it? PLEASE!!!

That would be a decision to be made by the only person involved.

It
just makes me very angry to think of the pain and anguish that these
babies
have to "suffer," as they are trying to enter the world.

Too bad. Deal with it.

Why would anyone be so cold and callous as to take this so lightly, when
this small human life is involved?

Are humans an endangered species? Exactly where is the requirement
that every possible individual must exist?

They didn't do
anything to deserve such treatment.

Irrelevant.

It is relevant, because this child is totally innocent.

It doesn't even exists.

According to the verdict for Scott Peterson, It does exist, or how could he
be convicted of killing his unborn son, Connor?

It didn't ask to be
a little life inside of a woman.

So? That is irrelevant. A splinter did not ask to be in my finger
but that does not mean I won't lull it out.

A splinter has no life in it.

It is an adamant object with no feeling.

And
when you pull it out, it hurts, doesn't it, or of course in your non-caring
attitude, you are going to say, No! it didn't hurt.

That was the woman's choice when she had
unprotected sex.

You are assuming unprotected sex, and there is no law requiring
protected sex. Please give me an exact reference to a law which
states that was in fact the woman's choice.

It didn't ask to be placed in this position.

Irrelevant.

It was there
because of the carelessness of two adults, who refused to use protection,
and then when she became pregnant, she just saw how easy it was to say, "I
don't want this invasion of my body,"

Yes, it is. Sex is legal and there is no law that requires any
punishment as a result. Nor any law requiring a pregnant woman to
remain pregnant if she does not wish to do so.

Never once thinking that she was
taking the life that was growing inside of her.

You are making an assumption no based on any facts.

You consider pregnancy a punishment for having sex and demand that
punishment not be avoided.

I don't dish out punishment for a woman having sex.

I just find it hard to
understand why a woman would do this to this child that she removes from her
body, just because she wants to.

How could I, as a woman, want to dish out
punishment for having sex.

Do you remember, I told you that I was married
at 17 years of age, and had a child a year later.

I then had three more,
and I didn't feel any punishment for having sex.

In fact, I had the
greatest rewards of all, "FOUR LOVING, WONDERFUL CHILDREN." Now, I am sure
if I, at the young age of 17, could take the responsiblity of having
children and taking care of them and loving them, more than life itself,
then other women could take this responsibility, too.

I was only a child
myself and it was so much fun, growing up with my children. Things weren't
always smooth, and we surely weren't wealthy, but I wouldn't ever exchange
one minute of it and I would never have aborted one of them, for any reason.

They are just an innocent victim, in
the realm of a woman's life, who was selfish and cruel enough to choose
not
to allow this baby to be born.

What gives you the right to decide this?

I have the right Because I have children whom I love, and chose not to
abort.

Which gives you no rights at all over anyone else. They can freely
tell you to buzz off and you can do nothing about it.

I had the first one of four, at the age of seventeen and have never
regretted one moment of it.

So what? Four kids and four fathers?

You are trying to place everyone in your mold and I will inform you that I
do not fit there. I have Four kids and one father, who loves me very much
and I love him very much. The eldest child, being 44 and the youngest one
being 25. We are now spending our rocking chair years together and loving
every minute of it, while we enjoy our 6 grandchildren. We didn't abort any
of them, thank God and our children didn't have any of their aborted,

also,
thank God, because they were taught morals and standards and to take
responsibility for their actions.

I recognize that God placed them within me to
bring me love and joy.

Yet you can't seem to prove any god even exists. Your statements are
obviously fit only to be ignored.

Again, Have you ever carried a child beneath your
heart and felt the movement of it, as it begins to move and kick?

If that ever happened the entire world would know about it you idiot.

Have you
ever held an innocent little baby in your arms?

I don't know. I have never checked to see if any of them had a police
record.

Have you ever felt the love
for that little life that is given you to take care of? Have you ever
felt
your heart well up with so much love for that child that you can hardly
contain the love for this little life? Have you ever saw it's first
smile,
first giggle, first tooth, first time it says Mama or Dad? Have your arms
ever ached for this child when it was sleeping and you could hardly wait
until it awakened? Have you watched it take the first step? Even an
animal
has the instinct to take care of and protect their unborn and their
babies.
If you haven't done these things with an innocent little baby, then you
have
missed a lifetime of love and joy, and you surely can not possibly know
what
you are talking about.

So as far as you are concerned emotions should govern all and facts be
damned?

Very compassionate, deep love, should govern our every move, from the time
we are born until the time we die. Love could conquer all of the ills of
the world. "Try it, you will like it."

Can't you see, she could have adopted it to
someone, who could have given it life and love, and instead, it was just
murdered, and never saw life.

Abortion, being legal, cannot be murder.

Abortion is legal by mans laws, not by the laws of God.

Since you can;t seem to prove any god even exists it is obvious any
'god laws' can be ignored.

Oh, Yes, you are
going to say that you do not believe in Him and that I need to prove this
deity.

I find it amusing how once again an idiot with no reading
comprehension has changed what I said. This is so predictable.

Give an exact reference to where I have said I do not believe in any
god. Since I am constantly accused of having said this I am very
careful never to say it but to only request others support what they
say. This does not seem to matter however - a requires for proof
seems somehow to become a direct denial in the minds of those like
you.

Well, I challenge you to prove to me that He doesn't exist. Prove
it! Tell me how you know that He doesn't exist. I am just simply asking
you to prove it.

In the first place, that is asking to prove a negative - which usually
cannot be done. Prove there are not six legged birds on the fifth
planet of Sirius.

In the second place, why should I need to prove something I have not
said? See my above comment, and then give an exact and specific quote
where I have stated a god does not exist. I have said you can't seem
to be able to prove any god exists (which is true - I have asked
several times with no response) and I have asked you to support your
assertion that a god exists by proving any god exists. That's all.

It was never allowed to draw it's first
breath. How unfair is that? How inhumane is that? How much pain and
suffering is this innocent little life having? Do you know? Do you
positively know for a fact? And if you say that you know that it didn't
suffer, just tell me how you know this? You couldn't know this, for
certain, because you weren't the life that was experiencing it. Or do
you
even care? I don't think so.

All irrelevant.

You are actually telling me that it is irrelevant if this child suffers at
the hand of a murderous doctor

Since abortion is legal and murder is illegal you lie again.

and the allowing of this terrible thing by
the woman who is supposed to be it's mother?

No, she is not a mother until live birth and the result of an abortion
on a fetus is an irrelevant and unimportant side effect.

How callous and uncaring can
you possibly be? That is what I mean about a person who doesn't know or
believe in God,

Here we go again. Prove any god exists.

as you have nothing but emptiness and non-caring inside of
you. Do you or have you ever known love? I seriously doubt it, or you
wouldn't be able to talk the way that you do.

Since you know nothing about me except that we have differing opinions
you have no evidence upon which to base that comment.

You are standing up on the side of the woman
who is doing this terrible thing

If you think it is terrible don't get an abortion but you have no
right to decide what someone else is going to do.

You have no need to tell me not to get an abortion, because I have never
even, in my wildest imagination, thought of such a thing. I can go on the
other side and tell you that you have no right to decide that children
should be aborted.

True, but I have never said that I did. Of course, no children have
ever been aborted.

So, seems as if we are again, "at a stalemate." You say
that I have no right and I say that you have no right.

No, you really do have a right not to get an abortion. If you are
pregnant no one can force you to get one.

And you really do not have a right to prevent anyone else from getting
one if that is her decision.

and I am standing up on the side of this
precious, little, innocent life.

So what? It's really none of your business.

It is certainly my business.

No, it isn't.

If I don't stand for something, I will fall
for anything, as you have. I do not want to be in your position, and I do
believe that killing a human life is my business.

Then you never wash you hands? Because you kill human live every time
you do.

So, does that make me the "bad guy?" or
the woman, who is allowing this to be done? Is she the "bad guy," for
allowing such thing to be done to her baby,

There is no baby prior to birth and the only 'bad guy' is someone who
tries to tell someone what they are supposed to do.

You need to study some more and find that life begins at the time of
conception.

No, it begins long before that since both sperm and egg must be alive
or conception will not occur. Or do you contend sperm and eggs are
not alive?

Someone has surely brainwashed you and made you believe just
what they want you too. That is also wrong. Try to think for yourself,
and
use a little common sense, instead of listening to those who would try and
confuse your mind.

See above if you want an example of common sense.

or is the guilty party the
doctor, who is doing it?

Guilty of what? Abortion is legal - no guilt ins involved.

There is legal, according to mans law and there is legal according to
God's
law.

Here we go again. Since you have not proven any god exists that is
sufficient reason to ignore what you call some unproven 'god's law'.

Man legalized abortion,

Which is all that matters.

God didn't. He has never and will never
condone killing or murder, whether it be an unborn life or a life that has
already been born.

Prove any god exists. When are you doing to do this? I suspect you
can't.

or our government, who has legalized it? You tell
me, since you seem to know so much about it. I just am very passionate
about this awful thing, so I have to point out what is actually
happening
to
an innocent life, and I do not feel one bit sorry for the woman, who
chooses
to do such a horrific thing.

And I am quite sure that no one feels sorry for you since you are
obviously an interfering busybody. Those who do not know you are
fortunate they do not have you bothering them.

I would not want to know the likes of you and those who do such terrible
things.

Likewise. I am selective in those with whom I associate.

My friends and family, of which there are many, are far above your,
"so called," legal abortions.

Abortion is not 'so called' legal. It is legal.

You have no standards for anything

Not so.

and you
have no beliefs in anything. Our morals

Almost everybody who refers to "moral"
means "what I think that you should do".

far outweigh that of your type of
murder and child abuse.

Are you accusing me of murder and/or child abuse? These are both
illegal acts, as is slander. Exactly what proof do you have that I
have participated in either activity?

If you have no such proof I demand a retraction and an apology.

What you demand and what I believe are two different things. No one demands
that I do anything, unless I have actually done something wrong, and I
haven't.

I said that abortion and child abuse are "one in the same."

Abortion is "child abuse," because it abuses or as most consider
, murders a child.

How can you get away from that?

Your mans laws may say that it is
perfectly legal,

but my God's laws say that it is murder and therefore,
child abuse.

So, your demands of me to apologise is null and void. Again,
you have twisted my words and it doesn't make me the least bit angry,
because I just "consider the source."

No, they wouldn't want to know me, and I am
fortunate not to know them, because I tell it like it is. Sin and Murder.

Murder is an illegal act and abortion is legal. It therefore cannot
be murder. Once again you lie.

God bless,

You have yet to prove any god exists.

Sorry, you will not believe that God exists until you begin to take the
blinders off and get your heart right.

Some proof would help.

You need to find peace and love,
which you obviously do not have, and will never have until you have God
and
His love in your heart, and quit trying to condone your abortions.

Once again a lot of meaningless babble and no facts or proof.

And I
will say to you that I am not top-posting

So you finally quit. It's about time.

and you need to improve your
English and maybe have some education, before you try to point out your,
so
called faults, and those things to others. It is very obvious that you
are
not well educated, and that your views are those of someone who is very
inadequate and unlearned in life, love, and experience.

Amusing. I suppose six years of college and over 30 years of working
for the largest high-tech company in the world does not count.

Yes, It is amusing, because as I read your typing, I have found several
sentences that I could hardly read for the errors that were in them.

Many
college graduates are fools when it comes to actual life. That is a well
known fact, so your college or experience does not impress me, when you
can't put together good sentences and most of the time have no idea what you
are talking about. My brother was a principal of a Maryland High School, my
husband was a Nascar technician for many years, building stock cars.$$$$ My
eldest son is manager of a large Truck accessory shop in Virginia. Next to
eldest son is a computer technician. My daughter manages a large retirement
community. My youngest son, age 25, is the manager of Walgreens
Pharmaceuticals. He already makes over $68,000.00 a year, at this very
young age. Not bad for 25 years of age.

So, now you can tell me how smart
you are and all about your college and working abilities.

That still
doesn't prove to me that you know what you are talking about. You also,
have not proven to me that abortion should be done, and that it is not, what
I consider to be, "child abuse, and murder.

Again, God Bless, yes,
rejected, but I will ask Him to do so, anyway.

Janice.

God Bless

Rejected.

, Janice

You also seem to have a problem with the fact that the overwhelming
majority of sex is done for pleasure, with no intention of the woman
getting pregnant. That is why women use birth control, and men use
condoms. For some reason, you seem to want to punish the woman for
having and enjoying sex. Which is very sad for you, since enjoyment
shared is enjoyment multiplied.

If it is done for pleasure and not to have children, then why not use
protection, instead of taking the chance of getting pregnant?

How do you know that she didn't?

Your
arguement doesn't hold water. If you are adult enough to have sex and
get
pregnant, without the use of protection, then you must be adult enough
to
have that human life and take care of it, not kill it at your little
whim,

More of your hate.

--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net