Science > Abortion > If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church
| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
10 Apr 2007 05:45:43 PM |
| Object: |
If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
Mexican Bishop: "If You Vote to Legalize Abortion - You Excommunicate
Yourself from the Church"
LifeSiteNews ^ | 4/5/07 | Meg Jalsevac
Posted on 04/06/2007 10:27:10 AM PDT by wagglebee
MEXICO CITY, April 5, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A second Mexican
bishop has issued an explicit warning to Mexico City's legislatures
cautioning them that, should they vote in favor of proposed
legislation that would legalize abortion, they would be automatically
excommunicated upon the death of the first baby under the new law.
Mexico City is governed by an assembly which can pass legislation
independent of the laws of the rest of the country. Although the
country as a whole is considered predominantly Catholic, the liberal
Party of the Democrats runs the Mexico City Hall and holds a 34 seat
majority in the 66 seat legislative body. It is not known how many of
the city legislators are practicing Catholics.
Mexico City law already permits abortion in cases of rape and when the
health of the mother is in danger but the legislation under
consideration would broaden that permission to authorize all abortions
within the first trimester. The current national law only allows for
abortions in cases of rape.
Bishop Marcelino Hernandez, auxiliary bishop of the archdiocese of
Mexico, explained that the Church would not need to issue an official
excommunication - the very actions of the lawmakers would
automatically put them outside the Church. "The person excommunicates
himself, it's not that the Church goes around with a rod, looking for
people who make mistakes, in order to hit them on the head."
Hernandez further explained the Church's position saying, "Life is not
subject to a vote." Acting as spokesman for Mexico's Catholic
Archdiocese, Armando Martinez previously condemned the upcoming vote
saying, "If the assembly can't be the city's conscience, we will have
to form our own party to represent us."
In March of this year, a similar warning was issued by the Mexican
Episcopal conference in which Bishop Arizmendi of Chiapas, Mexico
warned, "[A] law, only by being approved by a group of unscrupulous
legislators, cannot change the morality of a fact. Christian
consciousness considers abortion a murder and, thus, a grave, mortal
sin, punished by excommunication."
Leaders around the country have condemned the abortion initiative in
Mexico City. Mexican President Felipe Calder=F3n, a practicing
Catholic, said, "I have a plain respect for dignity and human life and
within this I believe the existing legislation is adequate."
Religious leaders from the Mexican Anglican and Greek Orthodox
communities have also joined the country's Catholic leaders in
opposing the Mexico City legislation.
The majority party of the City legislature has voiced their confidence
in the successful passage of the liberal abortion legislation.
The Mexico City legislature also voted to allow civil unions in 2006
and has expressed an upcoming agenda that would include legalizing
euthanasia in the near future.
Read Previous LifeSiteNews.com coverage:
Mexico City: Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox Church Leaders Unite in
Fight Against Abortion Law
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/mar/07032202.html
Mexico City Legislature Votes to Approve Gay Civil Unions
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jul/06070608.html
Mexico City Set to Vote to Allow Abortion Despite Pro-Life
Constitution
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/mar/07031507.html
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| User: "CafeWriter" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
10 Apr 2007 08:36:48 PM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@warpmail.net> wrote in message
news:1176245143.682042.31980@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Mexican Bishop: "If You Vote to Legalize Abortion - You Excommunicate
Yourself from the Church"
LifeSiteNews ^ | 4/5/07 | Meg Jalsevac
Posted on 04/06/2007 10:27:10 AM PDT by wagglebee
MEXICO CITY, April 5, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A second Mexican
bishop has issued an explicit warning to Mexico City's legislatures
cautioning them that, should they vote in favor of proposed
legislation that would legalize abortion, they would be automatically
excommunicated upon the death of the first baby under the new law.
Mexico City is governed by an assembly which can pass legislation
independent of the laws of the rest of the country. Although the
country as a whole is considered predominantly Catholic, the liberal
Party of the Democrats runs the Mexico City Hall and holds a 34 seat
majority in the 66 seat legislative body. It is not known how many of
the city legislators are practicing Catholics.
Mexico City law already permits abortion in cases of rape and when the
health of the mother is in danger but the legislation under
consideration would broaden that permission to authorize all abortions
within the first trimester. The current national law only allows for
abortions in cases of rape.
Bishop Marcelino Hernandez, auxiliary bishop of the archdiocese of
Mexico, explained that the Church would not need to issue an official
excommunication - the very actions of the lawmakers would
automatically put them outside the Church. "The person excommunicates
himself, it's not that the Church goes around with a rod, looking for
people who make mistakes, in order to hit them on the head."
Hernandez further explained the Church's position saying, "Life is not
subject to a vote." Acting as spokesman for Mexico's Catholic
Archdiocese, Armando Martinez previously condemned the upcoming vote
saying, "If the assembly can't be the city's conscience, we will have
to form our own party to represent us."
In March of this year, a similar warning was issued by the Mexican
Episcopal conference in which Bishop Arizmendi of Chiapas, Mexico
warned, "[A] law, only by being approved by a group of unscrupulous
legislators, cannot change the morality of a fact. Christian
consciousness considers abortion a murder and, thus, a grave, mortal
sin, punished by excommunication."
Leaders around the country have condemned the abortion initiative in
Mexico City. Mexican President Felipe Calderón, a practicing
Catholic, said, "I have a plain respect for dignity and human life and
within this I believe the existing legislation is adequate."
Religious leaders from the Mexican Anglican and Greek Orthodox
communities have also joined the country's Catholic leaders in
opposing the Mexico City legislation.
The majority party of the City legislature has voiced their confidence
in the successful passage of the liberal abortion legislation.
The Mexico City legislature also voted to allow civil unions in 2006
and has expressed an upcoming agenda that would include legalizing
euthanasia in the near future.
Read Previous LifeSiteNews.com coverage:
Mexico City: Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox Church Leaders Unite in
Fight Against Abortion Law
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/mar/07032202.html
Mexico City Legislature Votes to Approve Gay Civil Unions
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jul/06070608.html
Mexico City Set to Vote to Allow Abortion Despite Pro-Life
Constitution
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/mar/07031507.html
Um, I was never a part of any church so this doesn't affect me.
Geez, you must have this thought in your tiny head that everyone belong to
church. Guess what? I don't belong to any church so please explain to me
how this affect me when it doesn't do that at all?
.
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
11 Apr 2007 08:57:16 AM |
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On Apr 10, 9:36 pm, "CafeWriter" <cafewri...@shawRemoveThis.ca> wrote:
Um, I was never a part of any church so this doesn't affect me.
Geez, you must have this thought in your tiny head that everyone belong to
church. Guess what? I don't belong to any church so please explain to me
how this affect me when it doesn't do that at all?
It may not affect you, but it has nothing to do with whether or not
YOU were part of a church or not. It is about the church affecting you
with their morality even if you reject it.
Think about it this way:
You are an Atheist.
You are Mexican.
You are female.
You are unintentionally pregnant.
It is about Catholic sensibilities forcing you to carry the fetus to
term regardless of your personal wishes, and regardless of whether or
not you are Catholic.
So whether or not you are part of a church....church pressures do
affect you.
THEY determine what you can or cannot watch on television
THEY determine which books you can buy and where
THEY determine what sexual relations you may have
THEY determine that your, or your woman's body is nothing more than a
baby factory
THEY pick your pocket by pushing the tax burden onto you rather than
themselves
THEY determine which types of science can be taught in school
THEY determine what wars have to fought against those of an opposing
faith
So don't think just because you aren't part of a church, that they
don't affect you.
Hatter
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| User: "CE" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
12 Apr 2007 02:56:58 PM |
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On Apr 11, 10:57 am, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 10, 9:36 pm, "CafeWriter" <cafewri...@shawRemoveThis.ca> wrote:
Um, I was never a part of any church so this doesn't affect me.
Geez, you must have this thought in your tiny head that everyone belong to
church. Guess what? I don't belong to any church so please explain to me
how this affect me when it doesn't do that at all?
It may not affect you, but it has nothing to do with whether or not
YOU were part of a church or not. It is about the church affecting you
with their morality even if you reject it.
Think about it this way:
You are an Atheist.
You are Mexican.
You are female.
You are unintentionally pregnant.
It is about Catholic sensibilities forcing you to carry the fetus to
term regardless of your personal wishes, and regardless of whether or
not you are Catholic.
Actually, it's not just Catholic sensibilities. There are many people
of many faiths who are opposed to killing unborn babies.
With regards to "forcing" people to do things, our society also has
many such laws, enacted by people whose morality made them seek to
have such laws passed. Everyone is "forced" into refraining from
murder, for example, because many groups, including Christians and
Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not kill." Everyone is "forced"
to refrain from stealing because many groups , including Christians
and Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not steal." We have laws
obliging people to drive within the speed limits, stay quiet in
certain areas of cities after certain hours, dump garbage only in
certain areas.
There's nothing new or particularly radical about the idea of society
requiring people, regardless of their own personal beliefs, to observe
certain laws to prevent harm to others.
So whether or not you are part of a church....church pressures do
affect you.
THEY determine what you can or cannot watch on television
THEY determine which books you can buy and where
I wasn't aware the big networks or specialty channels were not owned
by church groups.
THEY determine what sexual relations you may have
How do they do that, beyond the obvious things like asking people to
not have sex in public parks? If two or more people go into a bedroom
and close the door, they can pretty much do what they want. Church
members will tell you what they think is right and wrong - much the
same way as gay and lesbian groups will tell you what they think is
right and wrong - with regards to sex. Those opinions do not pre-
determine a person's sexual practices.
THEY determine that your, or your woman's body is nothing more than a
baby factory
That's pretty silly. A woman is a human being and, as such, she has a
wide variety of roles. Having children can be one of those roles and
is a typical role for a woman. But women can and do also have jobs,
get education and training, and have a very wide variety of interests
- even among church people. It's really amazing that you could think a
church reduces women to nothing more than an object to produce babies.
THEY pick your pocket by pushing the tax burden onto you rather than
themselves
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
THEY determine which types of science can be taught in school
The Roman Catholic church doesn't have a problem with evolution. I'm
trying to think of a possible limitation on the teaching of science
from a Catholic perspective and I can't think of one off the top of my
head. There would be limitations on the kinds of materials or
applications of science, such as the use of cloning technology or use
of biological warfare agents. The studying of the science behind these
developments, though, would be okay.
THEY determine what wars have to fought against those of an opposing
faith
Funny you should mention that. Currently, the United States is in a
war in Iraq. Had the U.S. applied the Catholic standard of a just war,
it would never have gotten into that war and all those lives would
have been spared. Before this war started, the Catholic church put out
a statement in which it noted the standard of a just war had not been
met in this case. The United States went ahead anyways and people have
been dying as a result of this war ever since.
The vast majority of wars have nothing in particular to do with
religion but arise as a result of disputes over natural resources or
political allegiances.
So don't think just because you aren't part of a church, that they
don't affect you.
I will agree with this conclusion. Churches do affect society. By
encouraging people to be devout, they encourage volunteerism and
donations to community causes. Churches also foster a sense of
belonging, helping people to feel connected to one another. Churches
teach a moral code of conduct that usually includes prohibitions
against killing and stealing and lying and so forth, helping our
society to be stable and more harmonious than it might otherwise be.
Churches also aid in the building schools, hospitals and medical
clinics, and the development of social justice campaigns. Churches
encourage people to help out the less fortunate in terms of supporting
food banks, shelters for the homelss and crisis centres.
Even though you may not belong to a church, you can always go there
and seek refuge and other help. Churches help make the society in
which you live a kinder, more gentle place to live.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
12 Apr 2007 11:32:08 PM |
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CE <jlrisdon@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 11, 10:57 am, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 10, 9:36 pm, "CafeWriter" <cafewri...@shawRemoveThis.ca> wrote:
Um, I was never a part of any church so this doesn't affect me.
Geez, you must have this thought in your tiny head that everyone belong to
church. Guess what? I don't belong to any church so please explain to me
how this affect me when it doesn't do that at all?
It may not affect you, but it has nothing to do with whether or not
YOU were part of a church or not. It is about the church affecting you
with their morality even if you reject it.
Think about it this way:
You are an Atheist.
You are Mexican.
You are female.
You are unintentionally pregnant.
It is about Catholic sensibilities forcing you to carry the fetus to
term regardless of your personal wishes, and regardless of whether or
not you are Catholic.
Actually, it's not just Catholic sensibilities. There are many people
of many faiths who are opposed to killing unborn babies.
Everybody is opposed to killing babies. You have been corrupted by an
evil ideology into believing otherwise.
With regards to "forcing" people to do things, our society also has
many such laws, enacted by people whose morality made them seek to
have such laws passed.
That's a lie.
Everyone is "forced" into refraining from
You claimed that laws force people to do things, now you're trying to
defend that lie by providing examples of people being forced to NOT do
things.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
12 Apr 2007 06:43:01 PM |
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On 12 Apr 2007 12:56:58 -0700, "CE" <jlrisdon@gmail.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<1176407818.214739.257610@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> wrote:
On Apr 11, 10:57 am, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 10, 9:36 pm, "CafeWriter" <cafewri...@shawRemoveThis.ca> wrote:
Um, I was never a part of any church so this doesn't affect me.
Geez, you must have this thought in your tiny head that everyone belong to
church. Guess what? I don't belong to any church so please explain to me
how this affect me when it doesn't do that at all?
It may not affect you, but it has nothing to do with whether or not
YOU were part of a church or not. It is about the church affecting you
with their morality even if you reject it.
Think about it this way:
You are an Atheist.
You are Mexican.
You are female.
You are unintentionally pregnant.
It is about Catholic sensibilities forcing you to carry the fetus to
term regardless of your personal wishes, and regardless of whether or
not you are Catholic.
Actually, it's not just Catholic sensibilities. There are many people
of many faiths who are opposed to killing unborn babies.
With regards to "forcing" people to do things, our society also has
many such laws, enacted by people whose morality made them seek to
have such laws passed. Everyone is "forced" into refraining from
murder, for example, because many groups, including Christians and
Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not kill." Everyone is "forced"
to refrain from stealing because many groups , including Christians
and Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not steal."
Those laws are not based upon any religion. They are basic
requirements for a society to function. Killing must be restricted to
the proper venue and property rights must be recognized or the society
will collapse into anarchy.
We have laws
obliging people to drive within the speed limits, stay quiet in
certain areas of cities after certain hours, dump garbage only in
certain areas.
Which simply recognize there are certain behavior restrictions needed
for a functioning society.
There's nothing new or particularly radical about the idea of society
requiring people, regardless of their own personal beliefs, to observe
certain laws to prevent harm to others.
So whether or not you are part of a church....church pressures do
affect you.
THEY determine what you can or cannot watch on television
THEY determine which books you can buy and where
I wasn't aware the big networks or specialty channels were not owned
by church groups.
They bring pressure through sponsors and publicity to control content.
THEY determine what sexual relations you may have
How do they do that, beyond the obvious things like asking people to
not have sex in public parks? If two or more people go into a bedroom
and close the door, they can pretty much do what they want. Church
members will tell you what they think is right and wrong - much the
same way as gay and lesbian groups will tell you what they think is
right and wrong - with regards to sex. Those opinions do not pre-
determine a person's sexual practices.
THEY determine that your, or your woman's body is nothing more than a
baby factory
That's pretty silly. A woman is a human being and, as such, she has a
wide variety of roles. Having children can be one of those roles and
is a typical role for a woman. But women can and do also have jobs,
get education and training, and have a very wide variety of interests
- even among church people. It's really amazing that you could think a
church reduces women to nothing more than an object to produce babies.
Once pregnant they are required to complete the process. And the
birth control methods are restricted.
THEY pick your pocket by pushing the tax burden onto you rather than
themselves
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
Nonsense. Deducting religious contributions and tax exemption of
religions costs the taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars.
THEY determine which types of science can be taught in school
The Roman Catholic church doesn't have a problem with evolution. I'm
trying to think of a possible limitation on the teaching of science
from a Catholic perspective and I can't think of one off the top of my
head. There would be limitations on the kinds of materials or
applications of science, such as the use of cloning technology or use
of biological warfare agents. The studying of the science behind these
developments, though, would be okay.
They would have a cat fit over stem cell research or cloning. To
mention two.
THEY determine what wars have to fought against those of an opposing
faith
Funny you should mention that. Currently, the United States is in a
war in Iraq. Had the U.S. applied the Catholic standard of a just war,
it would never have gotten into that war and all those lives would
have been spared. Before this war started, the Catholic church put out
a statement in which it noted the standard of a just war had not been
met in this case. The United States went ahead anyways and people have
been dying as a result of this war ever since.
The vast majority of wars have nothing in particular to do with
religion but arise as a result of disputes over natural resources or
political allegiances.
The war in Iraq is based on religion.
So don't think just because you aren't part of a church, that they
don't affect you.
I will agree with this conclusion. Churches do affect society. By
encouraging people to be devout, they encourage volunteerism and
donations to community causes. Churches also foster a sense of
belonging, helping people to feel connected to one another. Churches
teach a moral code of conduct that usually includes prohibitions
against killing and stealing and lying and so forth, helping our
society to be stable and more harmonious than it might otherwise be.
Churches also aid in the building schools, hospitals and medical
clinics, and the development of social justice campaigns. Churches
encourage people to help out the less fortunate in terms of supporting
food banks, shelters for the homelss and crisis centres.
And will kill anyone who disagrees with them.
Even though you may not belong to a church, you can always go there
and seek refuge and other help. Churches help make the society in
which you live a kinder, more gentle place to live.
Absolute nonsense.
--
Pro-Choice is Pro-Freedom
.
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| User: "CE" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
12 Apr 2007 07:29:42 PM |
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On Apr 12, 8:43 pm, Attila <<procho...@here.now> wrote:
With regards to "forcing" people to do things, our society also has
many such laws, enacted by people whose morality made them seek to
have such laws passed. Everyone is "forced" into refraining from
murder, for example, because many groups, including Christians and
Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not kill." Everyone is "forced"
to refrain from stealing because many groups , including Christians
and Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not steal."
Those laws are not based upon any religion. They are basic
requirements for a society to function. Killing must be restricted to
the proper venue and property rights must be recognized or the society
will collapse into anarchy.
You maintain these laws are not based on any religion. Could you
please refer me to the appropriate reference that will indicate the
basis for these laws, a basis which by your reasoning must be more
ancient than that of the Judeo-Christian belief and therefore the
foundation from which all this arose?
So whether or not you are part of a church....church pressures do
affect you.
THEY determine what you can or cannot watch on television
THEY determine which books you can buy and where
I wasn't aware the big networks or specialty channels were not owned
by church groups.
They bring pressure through sponsors and publicity to control content.
So, let's see, churches do not own the networks. Churches do not
produce the content. Churches do not even pay for the content through
the commercials and sponsorships. This control by the churches that
you maintain is so powerful on TV content and book content is neither
primary nor secondary control. It is merely influence because of the
vast importance given by so many people in society to religion.
Gee, that doesn't exactly sound like an iron grip on the media, does
it?
That's pretty silly. A woman is a human being and, as such, she has a
wide variety of roles. Having children can be one of those roles and
is a typical role for a woman. But women can and do also have jobs,
get education and training, and have a very wide variety of interests
- even among church people. It's really amazing that you could think a
church reduces women to nothing more than an object to produce babies.
Once pregnant they are required to complete the process. And the
birth control methods are restricted.
The Roman Catholic church does teach that a woman should not kill her
unborn child. That, though, hardly makes a woman nothing more than a
"baby factory." A woman, pregnant or otherwise, can do many things. I
find it amazing that in this day and age you would think that a woman
who has a baby is reduced to nothing more than some sort of machine to
make babies. That doesn't sound very respectful of all the hard-
working, strong, intelligent and talented women out there who are
going about their lives while raising their children.
THEY pick your pocket by pushing the tax burden onto you rather than
themselves
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
Nonsense. Deducting religious contributions and tax exemption of
religions costs the taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars.
The loss of contributions is more than compensated by the contribution
of the devout to society. It's the same thing as giving a tax break to
a large corporation that will hire thousands of people and create many
millions of dollars in economic spinoffs. The loss of income from the
reduced taxes on the organization is offset by the advantages the tax
break brings.
THEY determine which types of science can be taught in school
The Roman Catholic church doesn't have a problem with evolution. I'm
trying to think of a possible limitation on the teaching of science
from a Catholic perspective and I can't think of one off the top of my
head. There would be limitations on the kinds of materials or
applications of science, such as the use of cloning technology or use
of biological warfare agents. The studying of the science behind these
developments, though, would be okay.
They would have a cat fit over stem cell research or cloning. To
mention two.
I can't see why. Studying the science of stem cell research or of
cloning is perfectly compatible with Roman Catholic teaching. It's the
actual, practical consequences that are the problem. But if I want to
pick up a book and read up on this or go to a class and be taught all
about this, that's certainly not a problem.
THEY determine what wars have to fought against those of an opposing
faith
Funny you should mention that. Currently, the United States is in a
war in Iraq. Had the U.S. applied the Catholic standard of a just war,
it would never have gotten into that war and all those lives would
have been spared. Before this war started, the Catholic church put out
a statement in which it noted the standard of a just war had not been
met in this case. The United States went ahead anyways and people have
been dying as a result of this war ever since.
The vast majority of wars have nothing in particular to do with
religion but arise as a result of disputes over natural resources or
political allegiances.
The war in Iraq is based on religion.
The U.S. involvement in the war in Iraq went ahead not because of
religion but rather in spite of it. The Roman Catholic church advised
against it. And, let's face it, the U.S. isn't in Iraq to fight about
religion. Remember the invisible weapons of mass destruction?
So don't think just because you aren't part of a church, that they
don't affect you.
I will agree with this conclusion. Churches do affect society. By
encouraging people to be devout, they encourage volunteerism and
donations to community causes. Churches also foster a sense of
belonging, helping people to feel connected to one another. Churches
teach a moral code of conduct that usually includes prohibitions
against killing and stealing and lying and so forth, helping our
society to be stable and more harmonious than it might otherwise be.
Churches also aid in the building schools, hospitals and medical
clinics, and the development of social justice campaigns. Churches
encourage people to help out the less fortunate in terms of supporting
food banks, shelters for the homelss and crisis centres.
And will kill anyone who disagrees with them.
From what I can see, you disagree with me and I'm a believer - and
you're not in any danger from me. Are you really afraid for your well-
being because of your disagreement with religion? If so, let me
reassure you: we're not planning to assassinate you or harm you in any
way. You're safe. Disagree all you want.
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 12:21:09 AM |
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"CE" <jlrisdon@gmail.com> said:
<...>
to attila:
You maintain these laws are not based on any religion. Could you
please refer me to the appropriate reference that will indicate the
basis for these laws, a basis which by your reasoning must be more
ancient than that of the Judeo-Christian belief and therefore the
foundation from which all this arose?
The foundation of morality and laws is this: the obvious benefit of
getting along with others in groups, which necessitates codes of
behavior and motivations toward compliance. These codes are enshrined
in whatever institutions can provide motivation toward their being
followed. Religion adds the illusory motivation, for those who need
it, of eternal reward or punishment as an expression of the divine
approval or disapproval of the ultimate father figure.
So to answer your question, the basis for these laws is the benefit of
getting along in groups, which predates the J-C religions and is
logically prior to *all* religions. Any species capable of
establishing a social institution and using it this way, will do so.
It is of course an important part of the illusion, that people believe
that religion, and a god, is the source of these rules. If that is
what it takes to keep them in line, that is. Some of us are capable of
seeing the benefit of rules, without need of the ultimate father
figure's approval or disapproval.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
12 Apr 2007 09:55:30 PM |
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On 12 Apr 2007 17:29:42 -0700, "CE" <jlrisdon@gmail.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<1176424182.847618.133610@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 8:43 pm, Attila <<procho...@here.now> wrote:
With regards to "forcing" people to do things, our society also has
many such laws, enacted by people whose morality made them seek to
have such laws passed. Everyone is "forced" into refraining from
murder, for example, because many groups, including Christians and
Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not kill." Everyone is "forced"
to refrain from stealing because many groups , including Christians
and Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not steal."
Those laws are not based upon any religion. They are basic
requirements for a society to function. Killing must be restricted to
the proper venue and property rights must be recognized or the society
will collapse into anarchy.
You maintain these laws are not based on any religion.
Yes, I do.
Could you
please refer me to the appropriate reference that will indicate the
basis for these laws, a basis which by your reasoning must be more
ancient than that of the Judeo-Christian belief and therefore the
foundation from which all this arose?
In the US all laws are based upon the Constitution, which has nothing
to do with any religion.
If you look at history every society has had some kind of law
restricting killing to some extent and property laws. Along with
other laws governing day to day functions within the society. Yet
these societies had widely separated religions, geography, and
populations. Clearly fundamental laws of societal function are
functioning here and not some Great Fairy.
So whether or not you are part of a church....church pressures do
affect you.
THEY determine what you can or cannot watch on television
THEY determine which books you can buy and where
I wasn't aware the big networks or specialty channels were not owned
by church groups.
They bring pressure through sponsors and publicity to control content.
So, let's see, churches do not own the networks. Churches do not
produce the content. Churches do not even pay for the content through
the commercials and sponsorships. This control by the churches that
you maintain is so powerful on TV content and book content is neither
primary nor secondary control. It is merely influence because of the
vast importance given by so many people in society to religion.
The mindless masses who pay attention to them sometimes change their
buying habits and viewing habits as a result of the threats and
intimidation used.
Gee, that doesn't exactly sound like an iron grip on the media, does
it?
Too often, yes. Advertising money talks.
That's pretty silly. A woman is a human being and, as such, she has a
wide variety of roles. Having children can be one of those roles and
is a typical role for a woman. But women can and do also have jobs,
get education and training, and have a very wide variety of interests
- even among church people. It's really amazing that you could think a
church reduces women to nothing more than an object to produce babies.
Once pregnant they are required to complete the process. And the
birth control methods are restricted.
The Roman Catholic church does teach that a woman should not kill her
unborn child.
Which does not exist.
That, though, hardly makes a woman nothing more than a
"baby factory." A woman, pregnant or otherwise, can do many things.
Including get an abortion if she wants it.
I
find it amazing that in this day and age you would think that a woman
who has a baby is reduced to nothing more than some sort of machine to
make babies.
That would depend on whether she had a choice in the matter.
That doesn't sound very respectful of all the hard-
working, strong, intelligent and talented women out there who are
going about their lives while raising their children.
Not at all. If that is their choice let them.
THEY pick your pocket by pushing the tax burden onto you rather than
themselves
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
Nonsense. Deducting religious contributions and tax exemption of
religions costs the taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars.
The loss of contributions is more than compensated by the contribution
of the devout to society.
No it is not.
It's the same thing as giving a tax break to
a large corporation that will hire thousands of people and create many
millions of dollars in economic spinoffs.
Not at all.
The loss of income from the
reduced taxes on the organization is offset by the advantages the tax
break brings.
The advantage is an overall increase in revenue to be used as a tax
base.
Exactly how do tax breaks for religions increase the overall revenue
available to be used as a tax base?
THEY determine which types of science can be taught in school
The Roman Catholic church doesn't have a problem with evolution. I'm
trying to think of a possible limitation on the teaching of science
from a Catholic perspective and I can't think of one off the top of my
head. There would be limitations on the kinds of materials or
applications of science, such as the use of cloning technology or use
of biological warfare agents. The studying of the science behind these
developments, though, would be okay.
They would have a cat fit over stem cell research or cloning. To
mention two.
I can't see why. Studying the science of stem cell research or of
cloning is perfectly compatible with Roman Catholic teaching. It's the
actual, practical consequences that are the problem.
No, it isn't. If it can be dome someone somewhere will do it. Any
other attitude is silly.
But if I want to
pick up a book and read up on this or go to a class and be taught all
about this, that's certainly not a problem.
How about opening a lab for actual productive research.
It is being done, you know.
THEY determine what wars have to fought against those of an opposing
faith
Funny you should mention that. Currently, the United States is in a
war in Iraq. Had the U.S. applied the Catholic standard of a just war,
it would never have gotten into that war and all those lives would
have been spared. Before this war started, the Catholic church put out
a statement in which it noted the standard of a just war had not been
met in this case. The United States went ahead anyways and people have
been dying as a result of this war ever since.
The vast majority of wars have nothing in particular to do with
religion but arise as a result of disputes over natural resources or
political allegiances.
The war in Iraq is based on religion.
The U.S. involvement in the war in Iraq went ahead not because of
religion but rather in spite of it. The Roman Catholic church advised
against it. And, let's face it, the U.S. isn't in Iraq to fight about
religion. Remember the invisible weapons of mass destruction?
The war in Iraq is based on religion.
So don't think just because you aren't part of a church, that they
don't affect you.
I will agree with this conclusion. Churches do affect society. By
encouraging people to be devout, they encourage volunteerism and
donations to community causes. Churches also foster a sense of
belonging, helping people to feel connected to one another. Churches
teach a moral code of conduct that usually includes prohibitions
against killing and stealing and lying and so forth, helping our
society to be stable and more harmonious than it might otherwise be.
Churches also aid in the building schools, hospitals and medical
clinics, and the development of social justice campaigns. Churches
encourage people to help out the less fortunate in terms of supporting
food banks, shelters for the homelss and crisis centres.
And will kill anyone who disagrees with them.
From what I can see, you disagree with me and I'm a believer - and
you're not in any danger from me.
I am from the collective you. I have has two ministers in this
newsgroup tell me the world would be better without me in it, and
offered to help me along. The offer stopped just sort of anything
direct but the implication was clear.
Are you really afraid for your well-
being because of your disagreement with religion?
Not at all.
If so, let me
reassure you: we're not planning to assassinate you or harm you in any
way. You're safe. Disagree all you want.
Tell it to Torquemata.
--
Pro-Choice is Pro-Freedom
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| User: "Robert" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 03:11:46 PM |
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On 12 Apr 2007 17:29:42 -0700, "CE" <jlrisdon@gmail.com> wrote:
From what I can see, you disagree with me and I'm a believer - and
you're not in any danger from me. Are you really afraid for your well-
being because of your disagreement with religion? If so, let me
reassure you: we're not planning to assassinate you or harm you in any
way. You're safe. Disagree all you want.
No one is now concerned about being tortured and killed by a church,
you were deprived of that power long ago, after abusing the power for
centuries. The concern is that churches will regain those powers and
abuse wilt resume.
Let me reassure you, the church has proven to rely on lies and liars
and has no credibility with atheist. Even the Christian that are
decent well meaning people are dangerous to freedom.
The religious community today is fighting the rights of Gay people,
fighting the rights of women, and many are still trying to return our
schools to churches by requiring a daily prayer service.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "•R L Measures" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 03:21:00 PM |
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In article <ghov13tn8abggkohmu7k73qlqc84bg5b3m@4ax.com>, Robert
<robpar@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 12 Apr 2007 17:29:42 -0700, "CE" <jlrisdon@gmail.com> wrote:
From what I can see, you disagree with me and I'm a believer - and
you're not in any danger from me. Are you really afraid for your well-
being because of your disagreement with religion? If so, let me
reassure you: we're not planning to assassinate you or harm you in any
way. You're safe. Disagree all you want.
No one is now concerned about being tortured and killed by a church,
you were deprived of that power long ago, after abusing the power for
centuries. The concern is that churches will regain those powers and
abuse wilt resume.
• I'm a Republican, and this is one thing that worries me about the
current Administration.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 07:31:35 PM |
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In article <ghov13tn8abggkohmu7k73qlqc84bg5b3m@4ax.com>, Robert
<robpar@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 12 Apr 2007 17:29:42 -0700, "CE" <jlrisdon@gmail.com> wrote:
From what I can see, you disagree with me and I'm a believer - and
you're not in any danger from me. Are you really afraid for your well-
being because of your disagreement with religion? If so, let me
reassure you: we're not planning to assassinate you or harm you in any
way. You're safe. Disagree all you want.
No one is now concerned about being tortured and killed by a church,
Oh, I don't know... I'm somewhat concerned about being attacked by "a
mosque" (or more specifically, some of the folks who attend them and
teach/preach at them).
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| User: "CE" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 03:04:09 PM |
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On Apr 13, 5:11 pm, Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 12 Apr 2007 17:29:42 -0700, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
From what I can see, you disagree with me and I'm a believer - and
you're not in any danger from me. Are you really afraid for your well-
being because of your disagreement with religion? If so, let me
reassure you: we're not planning to assassinate you or harm you in any
way. You're safe. Disagree all you want.
No one is now concerned about being tortured and killed by a church,
you were deprived of that power long ago, after abusing the power for
centuries.
The comment posted by Attila in this newsgroup was in the present
tense. It was: "And will kill anyone who disagrees with them." From
this statement, it's clear Attila either thinks church people will, in
the present, order the death of anyone who currently disagrees with
them - or that Attila is lying.
I chose to think Attila was trying to tell the truth as he or she
understands it.
That's why I reassured Attila that this is not the case. In our
church, we do not kill people who disagree with us. We don't even maim
them or try to damage their reputations. You're all safe.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 01:49:14 AM |
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On 13 Apr., 02:29, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 8:43 pm, Attila <<procho...@here.now> wrote:
With regards to "forcing" people to do things, our society also has
many such laws, enacted by people whose morality made them seek to
have such laws passed. Everyone is "forced" into refraining from
murder, for example, because many groups, including Christians and
Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not kill." Everyone is "forced"
to refrain from stealing because many groups , including Christians
and Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not steal."
Those laws are not based upon any religion. They are basic
requirements for a society to function. Killing must be restricted to
the proper venue and property rights must be recognized or the society
will collapse into anarchy.
You maintain these laws are not based on any religion. Could you
please refer me to the appropriate reference that will indicate the
basis for these laws, a basis which by your reasoning must be more
ancient than that of the Judeo-Christian belief and therefore the
foundation from which all this arose?
Perhaps you could explain why abortion was allowed before by the
Church - until the time the foetus "quickens". Furthermore abortion
was not considered murder in the Old Testament.
snip
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| User: "Anlatt the Builder" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 02:44:51 AM |
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On Apr 12, 5:29 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The U.S. involvement in the war in Iraq went ahead not because of
religion but rather in spite of it. The Roman Catholic church advised
against it.
Ah. Then I look forward to Catholic bishops instructing Catholic
politicians to vote against the war. Maybe even threaten them with
excommunication, as they do with respect to abortion and gay
marriage.
How long should I wait?
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 07:32:30 AM |
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On Apr 13, 3:44 am, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 5:29 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The U.S. involvement in the war in Iraq went ahead not because of
religion but rather in spite of it. The Roman Catholic church advised
against it.
Ah. Then I look forward to Catholic bishops instructing Catholic
politicians to vote against the war. Maybe even threaten them with
excommunication, as they do with respect to abortion and gay
marriage.
How long should I wait?
Till the second coming. I.e. The event that will never happen.
Hatter
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 10:12:48 AM |
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On 13 Apr 2007 05:32:30 -0700, "Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<1176467550.840349.257220@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> wrote:
On Apr 13, 3:44 am, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 5:29 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The U.S. involvement in the war in Iraq went ahead not because of
religion but rather in spite of it. The Roman Catholic church advised
against it.
Ah. Then I look forward to Catholic bishops instructing Catholic
politicians to vote against the war. Maybe even threaten them with
excommunication, as they do with respect to abortion and gay
marriage.
How long should I wait?
Till the second coming. I.e. The event that will never happen.
Especially since no one has ever proved there was a 'first coming'.
--
Pro-Choice is Pro-Freedom
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| User: "CE" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 02:43:26 PM |
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On Apr 13, 4:44 am, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 5:29 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The U.S. involvement in the war in Iraq went ahead not because of
religion but rather in spite of it. The Roman Catholic church advised
against it.
Ah. Then I look forward to Catholic bishops instructing Catholic
politicians to vote against the war. Maybe even threaten them with
excommunication, as they do with respect to abortion and gay
marriage.
How long should I wait?
The threat of excommunication isn't the only way to influence people.
In fact, it's a pretty extreme tool. The Roman Catholic church did
make its views known on the Iraqi war. It seems you missed it.
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| User: "Anlatt the Builder" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 03:37:55 PM |
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On Apr 13, 12:43 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 13, 4:44 am, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 5:29 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The U.S. involvement in the war in Iraq went ahead not because of
religion but rather in spite of it. The Roman Catholic church advised
against it.
Ah. Then I look forward to Catholic bishops instructing Catholic
politicians to vote against the war. Maybe even threaten them with
excommunication, as they do with respect to abortion and gay
marriage.
How long should I wait?
The threat of excommunication isn't the only way to influence people.
In fact, it's a pretty extreme tool. The Roman Catholic church did
make its views known on the Iraqi war. It seems you missed it.
No, I did not miss it. Stop being so smug. I am pointing out that when
the Catholic Church opposes ideas associated with the "left wing" -
i.e., abortion and gay marriage - it brings out the big gun of
excommunication. When it opposes ideas associated with the "right
wing" - i.e., capital punishment and unjust wars - it speaks in a much
softer voice, doesn't threaten politicians in any way, and does not
suggest to people that their soulsd and/or standing in the Church is
at risk. If you can't see this obvious difference - well, it seems you
missed it.
The gay marriage issue is the hardest one to understand on a
theological level, because, according to Church doctrine, homosexual
activity is no more or less a sin than premarital sex or remarriage
(and sex) after divorce (of a valid marriage). It's ALL "sex outside
of marriage." Yet Catholic politicians who don't publicly oppose
(civil) gay marriage are threatened with excommunication. Catholic
politicians who don't oppose (civil) divorce or the legality of
premarital sex are... well, fill in the blank. They are not
castigated, not criticized, not threatened with excommunication,
nothing.
It's a terrible double standard: the Church picking on gays
(pressuring Catholic politicians to pass specifically anti-gay civil
laws) while ignoring (from a political and/or legal point of view) the
far more numerous sins of heterosexuals.
If you can't see it, you're not looking.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
16 Apr 2007 12:16:11 AM |
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Anlatt the Builder wrote:
It's a terrible double standard: the Church picking on gays
(pressuring Catholic politicians to pass specifically anti-gay civil
laws) while ignoring (from a political and/or legal point of view) the
far more numerous sins of heterosexuals.
If you can't see it, you're not looking.
He's obviously a Catholic and thus able to do mindmending mental cotortions
to justify his unwavering allegiance to authority. What do you want him to
do? Start thinking for himself?
--
Geoff O'Furman
Head Coach, Varsity Hockey
University of Ediacara
AA #22??
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| User: "CE" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
14 Apr 2007 09:46:05 AM |
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On Apr 13, 5:37 pm, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 13, 12:43 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 13, 4:44 am, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 5:29 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The U.S. involvement in the war in Iraq went ahead not because of
religion but rather in spite of it. The Roman Catholic church advised
against it.
Ah. Then I look forward to Catholic bishops instructing Catholic
politicians to vote against the war. Maybe even threaten them with
excommunication, as they do with respect to abortion and gay
marriage.
How long should I wait?
The threat of excommunication isn't the only way to influence people.
In fact, it's a pretty extreme tool. The Roman Catholic church did
make its views known on the Iraqi war. It seems you missed it.
No, I did not miss it. Stop being so smug. I am pointing out that when
the Catholic Church opposes ideas associated with the "left wing" -
i.e., abortion and gay marriage - it brings out the big gun of
excommunication. When it opposes ideas associated with the "right
wing" - i.e., capital punishment and unjust wars - it speaks in a much
softer voice, doesn't threaten politicians in any way, and does not
suggest to people that their soulsd and/or standing in the Church is
at risk. If you can't see this obvious difference - well, it seems you
missed it.
The gay marriage issue is the hardest one to understand on a
theological level, because, according to Church doctrine, homosexual
activity is no more or less a sin than premarital sex or remarriage
(and sex) after divorce (of a valid marriage). It's ALL "sex outside
of marriage." Yet Catholic politicians who don't publicly oppose
(civil) gay marriage are threatened with excommunication. Catholic
politicians who don't oppose (civil) divorce or the legality of
premarital sex are... well, fill in the blank. They are not
castigated, not criticized, not threatened with excommunication,
nothing.
It's a terrible double standard: the Church picking on gays
(pressuring Catholic politicians to pass specifically anti-gay civil
laws) while ignoring (from a political and/or legal point of view) the
far more numerous sins of heterosexuals.
If you can't see it, you're not looking.
On this, I concede you have a point: the Roman Catholic church is not
doing enough to point out the sexual sins of heterosexuals in an age
when premarital sex and adultery are rampant and encouraged. It is
true that the church should be providing more leadership in that area
to be fair and balanced considering the statements it has made on same-
sex marriage.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
16 Apr 2007 12:18:39 AM |
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CE wrote:
On this, I concede you have a point: the Roman Catholic church is not
doing enough to point out the sexual sins of heterosexuals in an age
when premarital sex and adultery are rampant and encouraged.
Escellent!
It is
true that the church should be providing more leadership in that area
to be fair and balanced considering the statements it has made on
same- sex marriage.
Oh *****...you missed the point.
Let the Roman Catholics say WHATEVER THE ***** THEY WANT to their believers.
But they should keep their FUCKING NOSES OUT OF EVERYONE ELSE'S PRIVATE
AFFAIRS.
--
Geoff O'Furman
Head Coach, Varsity Hockey
University of Ediacara
AA #22??
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| User: "Robert" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 02:56:10 PM |
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On 12 Apr 2007 12:56:58 -0700, "CE" <jlrisdon@gmail.com> wrote:
Even though you may not belong to a church, you can always go there
and seek refuge and other help. Churches help make the society in
which you live a kinder, more gentle place to live.
True but Churches can and some times do make life miserable for some
people. Especially for those of us, that don't accept their
superstitions as facts.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Anlatt the Builder" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 02:47:42 AM |
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On Apr 12, 12:56 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
So you mean religions and the devout WOULDN'T do these things if they
didn't get a tax break?
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| User: "Robert" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 02:38:42 PM |
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On 13 Apr 2007 00:47:42 -0700, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirhuan@aol.com>
wrote:
On Apr 12, 12:56 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
So you mean religions and the devout WOULDN'T do these things if they
didn't get a tax break?
And they wouldn't give ten dollars for a hundred dollar deduction. Or
charge off several hundreds of dollar, for cast off clothing. Yes
donations would drop off drastically if there were not tax deductions.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 07:35:13 AM |
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On Apr 13, 3:47 am, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 12:56 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
So you mean religions and the devout WOULDN'T do these things if they
didn't get a tax break?
Or do non-religous people do these things? Yes.
Or do secular, even officially atheist societies have proscriptions
against murder and theft? Why yes they do.
It is a logical fallacy CE put up there. It is called "ignoring the
counterevidence"
Hatter
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| User: "CE" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 02:40:27 PM |
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On Apr 13, 9:35 am, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 13, 3:47 am, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 12:56 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
So you mean religions and the devout WOULDN'T do these things if they
didn't get a tax break?
Or do non-religous people do these things? Yes.
Or do secular, even officially atheist societies have proscriptions
against murder and theft? Why yes they do.
It is a logical fallacy CE put up there. It is called "ignoring the
counterevidence"
Actually, these statements were based on empirical evidence derived
from studies that observed the behaviours of religious people and non-
religious people. The study found virtually no difference in the
behaviour of most religious people compared to that of non-religious
people. But the study did find that a certain percentage - and from
memory I think it was about 10 per cent - of the religious could be
described as "devout." The behaviour of those people was markedly
different, with significantly more donations and volunteerism than
either religious or non-religious people in general.
There is no logical fallacy since the apparent conclusion of greater
volunteerism and donations to charity was not derived by logic but by
scientific observation.
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| User: "CE" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 02:41:55 PM |
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On Apr 13, 4:47 am, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 12:56 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
So you mean religions and the devout WOULDN'T do these things if they
didn't get a tax break?
Would corporations invest as much and create as many jobs without
their tax breaks? It's called a tax incentive for a reason. It's a way
to encourage activity that's deemed to be desireable in terms of
public policy goals.
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| User: "Anlatt the Builder" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
13 Apr 2007 03:27:46 PM |
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On Apr 13, 12:41 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 13, 4:47 am, "Anlatt the Builder" <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 12:56 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
So you mean religions and the devout WOULDN'T do these things if they
didn't get a tax break?
Would corporations invest as much and create as many jobs without
their tax breaks? It's called a tax incentive for a reason. It's a way
to encourage activity that's deemed to be desireable in terms of
public policy goals.
Yes, but the religious are supposed to get their reward in the
Afterlife. That's their incentive. They need tax breaks TOO?
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: If You Vote To Legalize Abortion, You Excommunicate Yourself From The Church |
12 Apr 2007 04:22:49 PM |
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On Apr 12, 3:56 pm, "CE" <jlris...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 11, 10:57 am, "Hatter" <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 10, 9:36 pm, "CafeWriter" <cafewri...@shawRemoveThis.ca> wrote:
Um, I was never a part of any church so this doesn't affect me.
It may not affect you, but it has nothing to do with whether or not
YOU were part of a church or not. It is about the church affecting you
with their morality even if you reject it.
Think about it this way:
You are an Atheist.
You are Mexican.
You are female.
You are unintentionally pregnant.
It is about Catholic sensibilities forcing you to carry the fetus to
term regardless of your personal wishes, and regardless of whether or
not you are Catholic.
Actually, it's not just Catholic sensibilities. There are many people
of many faiths who are opposed to killing unborn babies.
Thank you for the begging the question. There are no such thing as
"unborn babies"
anymore than there is "unwritten books"
With regards to "forcing" people to do things, our society also has
many such laws, enacted by people whose morality made them seek to
have such laws passed. Everyone is "forced" into refraining from
murder, for example, because many groups, including Christians and
Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not kill." Everyone is "forced"
to refrain from stealing because many groups , including Christians
and Jews, believe God commanded "You shall not steal." We have laws
obliging people to drive within the speed limits, stay quiet in
certain areas of cities after certain hours, dump garbage only in
certain areas.
GUess what those laws are called SECULAR. Say it with me
SECULAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There's nothing new or particularly radical about the idea of society
requiring people, regardless of their own personal beliefs, to observe
certain laws to prevent harm to others.
So whether or not you are part of a church....church pressures do
affect you.
THEY determine what you can or cannot watch on television
THEY determine which books you can buy and where
I wasn't aware the big networks or specialty channels were not owned
by church groups.
WHat do you think atheist were involved in the chilling effect the FCC
did after the whole Janet Jackson boob thing? No it was "famiblee
freindly" jackasses that go to church.
THEY determine what sexual relations you may have
How do they do that, beyond the obvious things like asking people to
not have sex in public parks? If two or more people go into a bedroom
and close the door, they can pretty much do what they want. Church
members will tell you what they think is right and wrong - much the
same way as gay and lesbian groups will tell you what they think is
right and wrong - with regards to sex. Those opinions do not pre-
determine a person's sexual practices.
ANTI_SODOMY LAWS say it with me ANTI SODOMY LAWS. Again who want's to
enforce those? Little hint they go to a place with a steeple.
THEY determine that your, or your woman's body is nothing more than a
baby factory
That's pretty silly. A woman is a human being and, as such, she has a
wide variety of roles. Having children can be one of those roles and
is a typical role for a woman. But women can and do also have jobs,
get education and training, and have a very wide variety of interests
- even among church people. It's really amazing that you could think a
church reduces women to nothing more than an object to produce babies.
Thats what anti-abortion actuivists and anti-birth control activist
do. Who are these people...here's a hint they spend sundays talking to
themselves but thinking they are talking to their invisible freind.
THEY pick your pocket by pushing the tax burden onto you rather than
themselves
The tax exemptions given to churches are actually quite fiscally
responsible. Devout people tend to volunteer and donate significantly
more to society than people who are not devout, regardless of which
religion we're talking about. Since volunteerism and donations help
provide our society with services that would otherwise likely be
provided by government, it only makes sense from a purely practical
point of view for governments to encourage people to be devout and to
support churches, and mosques, and synagogues and so forth.
No They aren't you liar. Devout people don't you liar.
If you want tax emeption for charitable activities, you create a
benevolence fund like 501-c5 and 501-c12 orgs do. Otherwise, it is a
big fat tax dodge to support something that people do to please
themselves. Furthermore I know how religions get a free ride because
it is far easier to set up a religion(6 pages of rules, no application
fee) than a education institution, theater, or charity kitchen (179
pages of rules, $600.00 appliecation fee, 5 year cycle audits)
THEY determine which types of science can be taught in school
The Roman Catholic church doesn't have a problem with evolution. I'm
trying to think of a possible limitation on the teaching of science
from a Catholic perspective and I can't think of one off the top of my
head. There would be limitations on the kinds of materials or
applications of science, such as the use of cloning technology or use
of biological warfare agents. The studying of the science behind these
developments, though, would be okay.
I didn't limit this to catholicism. But you mentioned limitation right
there
THEY determine what wars have to fought against those of an opposing
faith
Funny you should mention that. Currently, the United States is in a
war in Iraq. Had the U.S. applied the Catholic standard of a just war,
it would never have gotten into that war and all those lives would
have been spared. Before this war started, the Catholic church put out
a statement in which it noted the standard of a just war had not been
met in this case. The United States went ahead anyways and people have
been dying as a resu | | | | |
