| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"Papa Jack" |
| Date: |
14 Nov 2003 06:49:15 PM |
| Object: |
Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
On November 13, 2003, LifeNews.com posted an article by Steven
Ertelt titled: "Jewish Groups Back National Pro-Abortion March."
Go to:
http://www.lifenews.com/nat208.html
__________________________________________________________________
"Although sacred Jewish texts and traditions oppose
abortion, most American Jewish groups have long
supported the practice and pro-abortion lawmakers.
It should come as no surprise to some, then, that
leading Jewish organizations have announced they are
co-sponsoring next years' pro-abrotion march.
"The march for abortion is planned for April 25, 2004
and is being organized by NARAL, the Feminist
Majority Foundation, NOW, and Planned Parenthood.
A LifeNews.com expose in August revealed that the
AFSCME labor union is also organizing the event.
Now, pro-abortion Jewish groups have offered to lend
support.
The Union for Reform Judaism and its Washington-based
Religious Action Center for Reform Judaism have agreed
to be co-sponsors, as have the American Jewish Con-
gress's commission for women's equality and Hadassah.
The Anti-Defamation League supports the pro-abortion
march, but has not yet decided if it will join as a
co-sponsor an ADL spokeswoman said.
Nancy Kipnis, vice president of the National Council of
Jewish Women said her group will also help organize the
march.
"The strength of the April march in Washington will be in
its numbers. The numbers will have to send a very strong
message," Kipnis told Foreward magazine.
She said the march will be important to show strong
opposition to pro-life President George W. Bush
"For us, it's a matter of freedom -- personal and religious
freedom. There is a lot on the line, and we can't leave it
all to elections. It's the grassroots activism that occurs
between elections that influences policy."
Meanwhile, NARAL President Kate Michelman
attended the Union for Reform Judaism's biennial
convention in Minneapolis last week.
She told convention-goers, "We are counting on
groups like this -- activists like you -- to pack the
buses and come to Washington" for the pro-abortion
march.
However, according to pro-life Jews, most American
Jewish groups are out of step with religious teaching
on abortion.
Rabbi Barry Freundel, a widely respected Jewish
leader, said that, according to the Mishnah, which is
a record of oral interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures,
abortion is only permitted when a woman is in "hard
travail" and her life is in danger. He said the instances
where a pregnancy poses a serious threat to the mother
are very rare -- so Jews should oppose most abortions.
Not even in the most lenient interpretations, Rabbi
Freundel told a group at a National Right to Life
convention, is there anything that allows abortion on
demand.
Freundel has worked with other pro-life Jewish
leaders to organize efforts to oppose abortion.
Before Congress gave final approval to the partial-
birth abortion ban, he obtained more than 200
signatures of rabbis from Reform, Conservative, and
Orthodox traditions on a statement supporting the
pro-life bill.
Freundel is currently vice president and Ethics
Committee Chairman of the Rabbinical Council of
America. He is an adjunct professor at American
University, University of Maryland, Georgetown
University, and Yeshiva University.
____________________________________________________________________
Papa Jack comments:
Jewish groups ignore the tenets of their own
religion to pander to the very Liberal groups
who will turn on them in a second as soon as
it's politically correct.
Anti-Semitic activities are growing in both
Europe and Asia. And, this time, it's not
just a bunch of crazy Nazi types -- but, rather
those who are considered by many to be "liberal"
leaders.
taJewsAbortion
.
|
|
| User: "Dorothy" |
|
| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
14 Nov 2003 11:00:37 PM |
|
|
"Papa Jack" <papajack@stic.net> wrote in message
news:6f9e1b49.0311141649.3f1d9e2d@posting.google.com...
On November 13, 2003, LifeNews.com posted an article by Steven
Ertelt titled: "Jewish Groups Back National Pro-Abortion March."
Go to:
http://www.lifenews.com/nat208.html
__________________________________________________________________
"Although sacred Jewish texts and traditions oppose
abortion, most American Jewish groups have long
supported the practice and pro-abortion lawmakers.
It should come as no surprise to some, then, that
leading Jewish organizations have announced they are
co-sponsoring next years' pro-abrotion march.
"The march for abortion is planned for April 25, 2004
and is being organized by NARAL, the Feminist
Majority Foundation, NOW, and Planned Parenthood.
A LifeNews.com expose in August revealed that the
AFSCME labor union is also organizing the event.
Now, pro-abortion Jewish groups have offered to lend
support.
The Union for Reform Judaism and its Washington-based
Religious Action Center for Reform Judaism have agreed
to be co-sponsors, as have the American Jewish Con-
gress's commission for women's equality and Hadassah.
The Anti-Defamation League supports the pro-abortion
march, but has not yet decided if it will join as a
co-sponsor an ADL spokeswoman said.
Nancy Kipnis, vice president of the National Council of
Jewish Women said her group will also help organize the
march.
"The strength of the April march in Washington will be in
its numbers. The numbers will have to send a very strong
message," Kipnis told Foreward magazine.
She said the march will be important to show strong
opposition to pro-life President George W. Bush
"For us, it's a matter of freedom -- personal and religious
freedom. There is a lot on the line, and we can't leave it
all to elections. It's the grassroots activism that occurs
between elections that influences policy."
Meanwhile, NARAL President Kate Michelman
attended the Union for Reform Judaism's biennial
convention in Minneapolis last week.
She told convention-goers, "We are counting on
groups like this -- activists like you -- to pack the
buses and come to Washington" for the pro-abortion
march.
However, according to pro-life Jews, most American
Jewish groups are out of step with religious teaching
on abortion.
Rabbi Barry Freundel, a widely respected Jewish
leader, said that, according to the Mishnah, which is
a record of oral interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures,
abortion is only permitted when a woman is in "hard
travail" and her life is in danger. He said the instances
where a pregnancy poses a serious threat to the mother
are very rare -- so Jews should oppose most abortions.
Not even in the most lenient interpretations, Rabbi
Freundel told a group at a National Right to Life
convention, is there anything that allows abortion on
demand.
Freundel has worked with other pro-life Jewish
leaders to organize efforts to oppose abortion.
Before Congress gave final approval to the partial-
birth abortion ban, he obtained more than 200
signatures of rabbis from Reform, Conservative, and
Orthodox traditions on a statement supporting the
pro-life bill.
Freundel is currently vice president and Ethics
Committee Chairman of the Rabbinical Council of
America. He is an adjunct professor at American
University, University of Maryland, Georgetown
University, and Yeshiva University.
____________________________________________________________________
Papa Jack comments:
Jewish groups ignore the tenets of their own
religion to pander to the very Liberal groups
who will turn on them in a second as soon as
it's politically correct.
Anti-Semitic activities are growing in both
Europe and Asia. And, this time, it's not
just a bunch of crazy Nazi types -- but, rather
those who are considered by many to be "liberal"
leaders.
It's true. In spite of a high opinion of their own intelligence, Jews do
not think things thru any more than any other group of people. They trust
their leadership is telling them the truth about many issues when it seems
that the leadership has sold the Jewish vote to liberals for support of
Israel. Generally the pro-life message is shared in Christian communities
and Orthodox Jewish communities that are pro-life tend to keep to
themselves. The liberal left has turned its back on Jews and the secular
Jews refuse to face that fact yet, although there are rumbles about it in
articles.
.
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|
|
| User: "Papa Jack" |
|
| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
15 Nov 2003 12:39:40 PM |
|
|
"Dorothy" <Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote in message
news:<Vpitb.154427$275.468824@attbi_s53>...
"Papa Jack" <papajack@stic.net> wrote in message
news:6f9e1b49.0311141649.3f1d9e2d@posting.google.com...
==========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
On November 13, 2003, LifeNews.com posted an article by Steven
Ertelt titled: "Jewish Groups Back National Pro-Abortion March."
Go to:
http://www.lifenews.com/nat208.html
__________________________________________________________________
"Although sacred Jewish texts and traditions oppose
abortion, most American Jewish groups have long
supported the practice and pro-abortion lawmakers.
It should come as no surprise to some, then, that
leading Jewish organizations have announced they are
co-sponsoring next years' pro-abrotion march.
"The march for abortion is planned for April 25, 2004
and is being organized by NARAL, the Feminist
Majority Foundation, NOW, and Planned Parenthood.
A LifeNews.com expose in August revealed that the
AFSCME labor union is also organizing the event.
Now, pro-abortion Jewish groups have offered to lend
support.
The Union for Reform Judaism and its Washington-based
Religious Action Center for Reform Judaism have agreed
to be co-sponsors, as have the American Jewish Con-
gress's commission for women's equality and Hadassah.
The Anti-Defamation League supports the pro-abortion
march, but has not yet decided if it will join as a
co-sponsor an ADL spokeswoman said.
Nancy Kipnis, vice president of the National Council of
Jewish Women said her group will also help organize the
march.
"The strength of the April march in Washington will be in
its numbers. The numbers will have to send a very strong
message," Kipnis told Foreward magazine.
She said the march will be important to show strong
opposition to pro-life President George W. Bush
"For us, it's a matter of freedom -- personal and religious
freedom. There is a lot on the line, and we can't leave it
all to elections. It's the grassroots activism that occurs
between elections that influences policy."
Meanwhile, NARAL President Kate Michelman
attended the Union for Reform Judaism's biennial
convention in Minneapolis last week.
She told convention-goers, "We are counting on
groups like this -- activists like you -- to pack the
buses and come to Washington" for the pro-abortion
march.
However, according to pro-life Jews, most American
Jewish groups are out of step with religious teaching
on abortion.
Rabbi Barry Freundel, a widely respected Jewish
leader, said that, according to the Mishnah, which is
a record of oral interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures,
abortion is only permitted when a woman is in "hard
travail" and her life is in danger. He said the instances
where a pregnancy poses a serious threat to the mother
are very rare -- so Jews should oppose most abortions.
Not even in the most lenient interpretations, Rabbi
Freundel told a group at a National Right to Life
convention, is there anything that allows abortion on
demand.
Freundel has worked with other pro-life Jewish
leaders to organize efforts to oppose abortion.
Before Congress gave final approval to the partial-
birth abortion ban, he obtained more than 200
signatures of rabbis from Reform, Conservative, and
Orthodox traditions on a statement supporting the
pro-life bill.
Freundel is currently vice president and Ethics
Committee Chairman of the Rabbinical Council of
America. He is an adjunct professor at American
University, University of Maryland, Georgetown
University, and Yeshiva University.
____________________________________________________________________
Papa Jack comments:
Jewish groups ignore the tenets of their own
religion to pander to the very Liberal groups
who will turn on them in a second as soon as
it's politically correct.
Anti-Semitic activities are growing in both
Europe and Asia. And, this time, it's not
just a bunch of crazy Nazi types -- but, rather
those who are considered by many to be "liberal"
leaders.
==========================================================================
Dorothy" wrote:
It's true. In spite of a high opinion of their own
intelligence, Jews do not think things thru any more
than any other group of people. They trust their
leadership is telling them the truth about many
issues when it seems that the leadership has sold
the Jewish vote to liberals for support of Israel.
Generally the pro-life message is shared in Christian
communities and Orthodox Jewish communities that are
pro-life tend to keep to themselves. The liberal
left has turned its back on Jews and the secular
Jews refuse to face that fact yet, although there
are rumbles about it in articles.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack replies:
Well said, Dorothy. The real question is how the
"secular Jews" will react when the truth finally
dawns on them that they are only "Useful Idiots?"
They are heavily invested in the "progressive"
philosophy, so it will be difficult for them to
reconsider their positions on various social issues
such as abortion. I would hope many of them would
turn back to their religious roots and seek wisdom
and comfort there.
.
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| User: "Me" |
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| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
16 Nov 2003 07:45:19 AM |
|
|
In article <Vpitb.154427$275.468824@attbi_s53>,
"Dorothy" <Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote:
It's true. In spite of a high opinion of their own intelligence, Jews do
not think things thru any more than any other group of people. They trust
their leadership is telling them the truth about many issues when it seems
that the leadership has sold the Jewish vote to liberals for support of
Israel. Generally the pro-life message is shared in Christian communities
and Orthodox Jewish communities that are pro-life tend to keep to
themselves. The liberal left has turned its back on Jews and the secular
Jews refuse to face that fact yet, although there are rumbles about it in
articles.
What leadership? The Jewish religion does not have any central
leadership like many of the Christian churches do such as the Roman
Catholics. You have not the slightest clue of what you're talking about
when you talk about the Jewish religion, but than again, why should that
be any different than when you talk about abortion, where you also have
no clue.
.
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| User: "Me" |
|
| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
16 Nov 2003 07:42:54 AM |
|
|
In article <6f9e1b49.0311141649.3f1d9e2d@posting.google.com>,
(Papa Jack) wrote:
On November 13, 2003, LifeNews.com posted an article by Steven
Ertelt titled: "Jewish Groups Back National Pro-Abortion March."
Go to:
http://www.lifenews.com/nat208.html
__________________________________________________________________
"Although sacred Jewish texts and traditions oppose
abortion, most American Jewish groups have long
supported the practice and pro-abortion lawmakers."
Perhaps that's because you and your allies are wrong when you claim that
sacred Jewish texts appose abortion, but you've made a long habit of
being wrong so why stop now?
A colleague of mine is married to an orthodox rabbi. It is simply
impossible to be any more observant and well read of Jewish law and
tradition than my colleague and her husband are. One of their two
sons is also an orthodox rabbi. They're pro-abortion. Are you telling me
you know more about the Jewish tradition and religious texts than these
people do? If so, you're really a nut case.
.
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|
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| User: "Dorothy" |
|
| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
16 Nov 2003 10:20:21 AM |
|
|
"Me" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:srhi-D93101.08425416112003@comcast.ash.giganews.com...
In article <6f9e1b49.0311141649.3f1d9e2d@posting.google.com>,
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
On November 13, 2003, LifeNews.com posted an article by Steven
Ertelt titled: "Jewish Groups Back National Pro-Abortion March."
Go to:
http://www.lifenews.com/nat208.html
__________________________________________________________________
"Although sacred Jewish texts and traditions oppose
abortion, most American Jewish groups have long
supported the practice and pro-abortion lawmakers."
Perhaps that's because you and your allies are wrong when you claim that
sacred Jewish texts appose abortion, but you've made a long habit of
being wrong so why stop now?
A colleague of mine is married to an orthodox rabbi. It is simply
impossible to be any more observant and well read of Jewish law and
tradition than my colleague and her husband are. One of their two
sons is also an orthodox rabbi. They're pro-abortion. Are you telling me
you know more about the Jewish tradition and religious texts than these
people do? If so, you're really a nut case.
Yes, there is no central Jewish religious leadership, for either the
Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist or independent
groups. Breaking it down, those who call themselves Modern Orthodox do tend
to be pro-abortion. The mainline Orthodox community rabbis support
abortion only for the physical life of the mother. When I talk about
leadership I am speaking about the secular Jewish community leadership,
American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, the ADL, Haddassah,
etc. The writers for these organizations, though small in number, have
greater access to Jewish publications than the rabbis do, so they are able
to influence Jewish readers, along with the rabbis from the religious groups
other than mainstream Orthodox Judaism. Having been involved in dialogue
with Jews on the topic of abortion, I find them extremely uninformed about
the abortion industry.
The published fiction goes that Jewish women are to consult with their rabbi
before going ahead with abortions, so that all circumstances can be taken
into account before the rabbi gives his opinion on the need for an abortion.
As I said, it is a fiction which sounds good in print.
The Orthodox community generally separates itself from the other branches of
Judaism. There are many reasons for this which I would rather not go into
here. The main point being that one has to read Orthodox rabbis for their
opinions on abortion rather than what the other say the Orthodox say about
abortion. The Orthodox have studied Judaism in depth for thousands of
years. The other branches have developed in the last 200 years and it
shows.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Lawrence E. McKnight" |
|
| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
16 Nov 2003 01:35:40 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:20:21 GMT, "Dorothy"
<Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote:
"Me" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:srhi-D93101.08425416112003@comcast.ash.giganews.com...
In article <6f9e1b49.0311141649.3f1d9e2d@posting.google.com>,
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
On November 13, 2003, LifeNews.com posted an article by Steven
Ertelt titled: "Jewish Groups Back National Pro-Abortion March."
Go to:
http://www.lifenews.com/nat208.html
__________________________________________________________________
"Although sacred Jewish texts and traditions oppose
abortion, most American Jewish groups have long
supported the practice and pro-abortion lawmakers."
Perhaps that's because you and your allies are wrong when you claim that
sacred Jewish texts appose abortion, but you've made a long habit of
being wrong so why stop now?
A colleague of mine is married to an orthodox rabbi. It is simply
impossible to be any more observant and well read of Jewish law and
tradition than my colleague and her husband are. One of their two
sons is also an orthodox rabbi. They're pro-abortion. Are you telling me
you know more about the Jewish tradition and religious texts than these
people do? If so, you're really a nut case.
Yes, there is no central Jewish religious leadership, for either the
Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist or independent
groups. Breaking it down, those who call themselves Modern Orthodox do tend
to be pro-abortion. The mainline Orthodox community rabbis support
abortion only for the physical life of the mother. When I talk about
leadership I am speaking about the secular Jewish community leadership,
American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, the ADL, Haddassah,
etc. The writers for these organizations, though small in number, have
greater access to Jewish publications than the rabbis do, so they are able
to influence Jewish readers, along with the rabbis from the religious groups
other than mainstream Orthodox Judaism. Having been involved in dialogue
with Jews on the topic of abortion, I find them extremely uninformed about
the abortion industry.
The published fiction goes that Jewish women are to consult with their rabbi
before going ahead with abortions, so that all circumstances can be taken
into account before the rabbi gives his opinion on the need for an abortion.
As I said, it is a fiction which sounds good in print.
The Orthodox community generally separates itself from the other branches of
Judaism. There are many reasons for this which I would rather not go into
here. The main point being that one has to read Orthodox rabbis for their
opinions on abortion rather than what the other say the Orthodox say about
abortion. The Orthodox have studied Judaism in depth for thousands of
years. The other branches have developed in the last 200 years and it
shows.
Dorothy, what do you consider 'mainstream'? The Lubivitchers?
-
Larry
(this space unintentionally left blank .....
make obvious deletion for email
.
|
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| User: "Dorothy" |
|
| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
16 Nov 2003 04:30:35 PM |
|
|
"Lawrence E. McKnight" <lawrence.delete.mcknight@sbcglobal.delete.net> wrote
in message news:nakfrv8kg29advmknvtscppn88ctj9ggrg@4ax.com...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:20:21 GMT, "Dorothy"
<Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote:
"Me" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:srhi-D93101.08425416112003@comcast.ash.giganews.com...
In article <6f9e1b49.0311141649.3f1d9e2d@posting.google.com>,
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
On November 13, 2003, LifeNews.com posted an article by Steven
Ertelt titled: "Jewish Groups Back National Pro-Abortion March."
Go to:
http://www.lifenews.com/nat208.html
__________________________________________________________________
"Although sacred Jewish texts and traditions oppose
abortion, most American Jewish groups have long
supported the practice and pro-abortion lawmakers."
Perhaps that's because you and your allies are wrong when you claim
that
sacred Jewish texts appose abortion, but you've made a long habit of
being wrong so why stop now?
A colleague of mine is married to an orthodox rabbi. It is simply
impossible to be any more observant and well read of Jewish law and
tradition than my colleague and her husband are. One of their two
sons is also an orthodox rabbi. They're pro-abortion. Are you telling
me
you know more about the Jewish tradition and religious texts than these
people do? If so, you're really a nut case.
Yes, there is no central Jewish religious leadership, for either the
Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist or
independent
groups. Breaking it down, those who call themselves Modern Orthodox do
tend
to be pro-abortion. The mainline Orthodox community rabbis support
abortion only for the physical life of the mother. When I talk about
leadership I am speaking about the secular Jewish community leadership,
American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, the ADL, Haddassah,
etc. The writers for these organizations, though small in number, have
greater access to Jewish publications than the rabbis do, so they are
able
to influence Jewish readers, along with the rabbis from the religious
groups
other than mainstream Orthodox Judaism. Having been involved in dialogue
with Jews on the topic of abortion, I find them extremely uninformed
about
the abortion industry.
The published fiction goes that Jewish women are to consult with their
rabbi
before going ahead with abortions, so that all circumstances can be taken
into account before the rabbi gives his opinion on the need for an
abortion.
As I said, it is a fiction which sounds good in print.
The Orthodox community generally separates itself from the other branches
of
Judaism. There are many reasons for this which I would rather not go
into
here. The main point being that one has to read Orthodox rabbis for
their
opinions on abortion rather than what the other say the Orthodox say
about
abortion. The Orthodox have studied Judaism in depth for thousands of
years. The other branches have developed in the last 200 years and it
shows.
Dorothy, what do you consider 'mainstream'? The Lubivitchers?
-
Larry
(this space unintentionally left blank .....
make obvious deletion for email
Mainstream Orthodox? Hasidim, Misnagdim.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Lawrence E. McKnight" |
|
| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
16 Nov 2003 06:04:32 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:30:35 GMT, "Dorothy"
<Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote:
"Lawrence E. McKnight" <lawrence.delete.mcknight@sbcglobal.delete.net> wrote
in message news:nakfrv8kg29advmknvtscppn88ctj9ggrg@4ax.com...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:20:21 GMT, "Dorothy"
<Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote:
"Me" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:srhi-D93101.08425416112003@comcast.ash.giganews.com...
In article <6f9e1b49.0311141649.3f1d9e2d@posting.google.com>,
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
On November 13, 2003, LifeNews.com posted an article by Steven
Ertelt titled: "Jewish Groups Back National Pro-Abortion March."
Go to:
http://www.lifenews.com/nat208.html
__________________________________________________________________
"Although sacred Jewish texts and traditions oppose
abortion, most American Jewish groups have long
supported the practice and pro-abortion lawmakers."
Perhaps that's because you and your allies are wrong when you claim
that
sacred Jewish texts appose abortion, but you've made a long habit of
being wrong so why stop now?
A colleague of mine is married to an orthodox rabbi. It is simply
impossible to be any more observant and well read of Jewish law and
tradition than my colleague and her husband are. One of their two
sons is also an orthodox rabbi. They're pro-abortion. Are you telling
me
you know more about the Jewish tradition and religious texts than these
people do? If so, you're really a nut case.
Yes, there is no central Jewish religious leadership, for either the
Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist or
independent
groups. Breaking it down, those who call themselves Modern Orthodox do
tend
to be pro-abortion. The mainline Orthodox community rabbis support
abortion only for the physical life of the mother. When I talk about
leadership I am speaking about the secular Jewish community leadership,
American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, the ADL, Haddassah,
etc. The writers for these organizations, though small in number, have
greater access to Jewish publications than the rabbis do, so they are
able
to influence Jewish readers, along with the rabbis from the religious
groups
other than mainstream Orthodox Judaism. Having been involved in dialogue
with Jews on the topic of abortion, I find them extremely uninformed
about
the abortion industry.
The published fiction goes that Jewish women are to consult with their
rabbi
before going ahead with abortions, so that all circumstances can be taken
into account before the rabbi gives his opinion on the need for an
abortion.
As I said, it is a fiction which sounds good in print.
The Orthodox community generally separates itself from the other branches
of
Judaism. There are many reasons for this which I would rather not go
into
here. The main point being that one has to read Orthodox rabbis for
their
opinions on abortion rather than what the other say the Orthodox say
about
abortion. The Orthodox have studied Judaism in depth for thousands of
years. The other branches have developed in the last 200 years and it
shows.
Dorothy, what do you consider 'mainstream'? The Lubivitchers?
-
Larry
(this space unintentionally left blank .....
make obvious deletion for email
Mainstream Orthodox? Hasidim, Misnagdim.
So, which Hassidim? The Lubivitchers?
-
Larry
(this space unintentionally left blank .....
make obvious deletion for email
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dorothy" |
|
| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
17 Nov 2003 12:39:03 AM |
|
|
"Lawrence E. McKnight" <lawrence.delete.mcknight@sbcglobal.delete.net> wrote
in message news:i34grv80vf79cqsdlpnjfbfpod9k7qselk@4ax.com...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:30:35 GMT, "Dorothy"
<Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote:
"Lawrence E. McKnight" <lawrence.delete.mcknight@sbcglobal.delete.net>
wrote
in message news:nakfrv8kg29advmknvtscppn88ctj9ggrg@4ax.com...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:20:21 GMT, "Dorothy"
<Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote:
"Me" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:srhi-D93101.08425416112003@comcast.ash.giganews.com...
In article <6f9e1b49.0311141649.3f1d9e2d@posting.google.com>,
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
On November 13, 2003, LifeNews.com posted an article by Steven
Ertelt titled: "Jewish Groups Back National Pro-Abortion March."
Go to:
http://www.lifenews.com/nat208.html
__________________________________________________________________
"Although sacred Jewish texts and traditions oppose
abortion, most American Jewish groups have long
supported the practice and pro-abortion lawmakers."
Perhaps that's because you and your allies are wrong when you claim
that
sacred Jewish texts appose abortion, but you've made a long habit of
being wrong so why stop now?
A colleague of mine is married to an orthodox rabbi. It is simply
impossible to be any more observant and well read of Jewish law and
tradition than my colleague and her husband are. One of their two
sons is also an orthodox rabbi. They're pro-abortion. Are you
telling
me
you know more about the Jewish tradition and religious texts than
these
people do? If so, you're really a nut case.
Yes, there is no central Jewish religious leadership, for either the
Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist or
independent
groups. Breaking it down, those who call themselves Modern Orthodox
do
tend
to be pro-abortion. The mainline Orthodox community rabbis support
abortion only for the physical life of the mother. When I talk about
leadership I am speaking about the secular Jewish community
leadership,
American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, the ADL,
Haddassah,
etc. The writers for these organizations, though small in number,
have
greater access to Jewish publications than the rabbis do, so they are
able
to influence Jewish readers, along with the rabbis from the religious
groups
other than mainstream Orthodox Judaism. Having been involved in
dialogue
with Jews on the topic of abortion, I find them extremely uninformed
about
the abortion industry.
The published fiction goes that Jewish women are to consult with their
rabbi
before going ahead with abortions, so that all circumstances can be
taken
into account before the rabbi gives his opinion on the need for an
abortion.
As I said, it is a fiction which sounds good in print.
The Orthodox community generally separates itself from the other
branches
of
Judaism. There are many reasons for this which I would rather not go
into
here. The main point being that one has to read Orthodox rabbis for
their
opinions on abortion rather than what the other say the Orthodox say
about
abortion. The Orthodox have studied Judaism in depth for thousands of
years. The other branches have developed in the last 200 years and it
shows.
Dorothy, what do you consider 'mainstream'? The Lubivitchers?
-
Larry
(this space unintentionally left blank .....
make obvious deletion for email
Mainstream Orthodox? Hasidim, Misnagdim.
So, which Hassidim? The Lubivitchers?
-
Larry
(this space unintentionally left blank .....
make obvious deletion for email
Go to a Jewish dictionary and look up the words.
.
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| User: "Lawrence E. McKnight" |
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| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
17 Nov 2003 07:30:34 PM |
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On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 06:39:03 GMT, "Dorothy"
<Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote:
"Lawrence E. McKnight" <lawrence.delete.mcknight@sbcglobal.delete.net> wrote
in message news:i34grv80vf79cqsdlpnjfbfpod9k7qselk@4ax.com...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:30:35 GMT, "Dorothy"
<Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote:
"Lawrence E. McKnight" <lawrence.delete.mcknight@sbcglobal.delete.net>
wrote
in message news:nakfrv8kg29advmknvtscppn88ctj9ggrg@4ax.com...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:20:21 GMT, "Dorothy"
<Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote:
"Me" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:srhi-D93101.08425416112003@comcast.ash.giganews.com...
In article <6f9e1b49.0311141649.3f1d9e2d@posting.google.com>,
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
On November 13, 2003, LifeNews.com posted an article by Steven
Ertelt titled: "Jewish Groups Back National Pro-Abortion March."
Go to:
http://www.lifenews.com/nat208.html
__________________________________________________________________
"Although sacred Jewish texts and traditions oppose
abortion, most American Jewish groups have long
supported the practice and pro-abortion lawmakers."
Perhaps that's because you and your allies are wrong when you claim
that
sacred Jewish texts appose abortion, but you've made a long habit of
being wrong so why stop now?
A colleague of mine is married to an orthodox rabbi. It is simply
impossible to be any more observant and well read of Jewish law and
tradition than my colleague and her husband are. One of their two
sons is also an orthodox rabbi. They're pro-abortion. Are you
telling
me
you know more about the Jewish tradition and religious texts than
these
people do? If so, you're really a nut case.
Yes, there is no central Jewish religious leadership, for either the
Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist or
independent
groups. Breaking it down, those who call themselves Modern Orthodox
do
tend
to be pro-abortion. The mainline Orthodox community rabbis support
abortion only for the physical life of the mother. When I talk about
leadership I am speaking about the secular Jewish community
leadership,
American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, the ADL,
Haddassah,
etc. The writers for these organizations, though small in number,
have
greater access to Jewish publications than the rabbis do, so they are
able
to influence Jewish readers, along with the rabbis from the religious
groups
other than mainstream Orthodox Judaism. Having been involved in
dialogue
with Jews on the topic of abortion, I find them extremely uninformed
about
the abortion industry.
The published fiction goes that Jewish women are to consult with their
rabbi
before going ahead with abortions, so that all circumstances can be
taken
into account before the rabbi gives his opinion on the need for an
abortion.
As I said, it is a fiction which sounds good in print.
The Orthodox community generally separates itself from the other
branches
of
Judaism. There are many reasons for this which I would rather not go
into
here. The main point being that one has to read Orthodox rabbis for
their
opinions on abortion rather than what the other say the Orthodox say
about
abortion. The Orthodox have studied Judaism in depth for thousands of
years. The other branches have developed in the last 200 years and it
shows.
Dorothy, what do you consider 'mainstream'? The Lubivitchers?
-
Larry
(this space unintentionally left blank .....
make obvious deletion for email
Mainstream Orthodox? Hasidim, Misnagdim.
So, which Hassidim? The Lubivitchers?
-
Larry
(this space unintentionally left blank .....
make obvious deletion for email
Go to a Jewish dictionary and look up the words.
Uh, are you unaware of who the Lubivitchers are? Free Clue: they are
a Hassidic sect.
-
Larry
(this space unintentionally left blank .....
make obvious deletion for email
.
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| User: "John Savard" |
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| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
17 Nov 2003 07:39:11 AM |
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On 14 Nov 2003 16:49:15 -0800, (Papa Jack) wrote, in
part:
Jewish groups ignore the tenets of their own
religion to pander to the very Liberal groups
who will turn on them in a second as soon as
it's politically correct.
Anti-Semitic activities are growing in both
Europe and Asia. And, this time, it's not
just a bunch of crazy Nazi types -- but, rather
those who are considered by many to be "liberal"
leaders.
You are certainly correct that Communist Russia supported Arab
aggression against Israel, and that many liberal political
organizations and individuals are highly sympathetic to the
Palestinian cause.
The recent attempt at an academic boycott of Israel in Europe is a
case in point of what you describe.
However, historically, the chief enemies of Jews throughout the
Western world have been conservatives and traditionalists of every
stripe. Thus, the stereotype of liberalism as a Jewish characteristic
has some degree of validity.
It also helps that being able to read Hebrew is considered a
culturally defining characteristic of being a Jew; thus, unlike, say,
Native Americans or African-Americans, Jews don't view sitting behind
a desk at school and paying attention as being, even in part, selling
out to Mr. Charlie, but as a quintessentially Jewish activity.
(So-called Asian-Americans, that is, those who are of Oriental
ancestry, also find education to be culturally self-validating because
of the effort required to learn Chinese characters. Other Asians not
generally included in the term "Asian", such as East Indians, also
have the advantage of a long cultural heritage involving literacy. Of
course, Thais, for example, despite being Oriental in ancestry, fall
into the latter category, not using Chinese characters even as much as
Koreans...)
Being a doctor can contribute to an unsentimental view of human life
and death, and what being a lawyer can do to the moral sense is too
well known to bear repeating.
Also, in this, Jews are hardly worse than Christians, whose
traditional teachings also condemn abortion. But liberal Christians
look at the nice things Jesus said, and accept them on their obvious
merit, and conclude that even if one doesn't take the Bible as the
literal word of God (and thus one doesn't need to get exercised, say,
at our society's increasing tolerance of homosexuality) and therefore
feel oneself constrained to accept every single thing St. Paul said -
like that stuff about not allowing mere *women* to participate in
theological discussions, one can still be following true Christianity
by declining to throw stones at women who have had abortions.
* * *
Incidentally, given the items I have mentioned above about the
advantages - and situation - of Jewish and Asian youth, I shall
venture to present an essay at racial humor below, although I know
that jokes constructed on such a basis are considered offensive by
current standards. This is because this joke is intended to teach a
truth about human nature that may prove useful in resolving the
current agony which black people in the United States are suffering.
Humor is easily understood and remembered. And what I am about to say
may also help some to understand the positive influence of the Black
Muslims in parts of the United States.
Without further ado...
* * *
What is the most effective way to get a young black child, growing up
in the slums, to study his math lessons diligently?
Tell him the Black Panthers are trying to build their own atomic bomb.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Jews Ignore Mishnah to Support Abortion |
14 Nov 2003 08:55:54 PM |
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Papa Jackass <papajack@stic.net> wrote:
Jewish groups ignore the tenets of their own
religion to pander to the very Liberal groups
Jackass is such a sleazy control freak that not only does he demand
the right to tell women what to do, he now also tells people how to be
Jewish.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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