On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:57:08 -0700, "AbsolutelyCertain"
<easily@entertained.net> wrote in message <cd3vma$rm3$0@pita.alt.net>:

"Xomicron" <xomicron@wp.pl> wrote in message

"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:41:53 GMT, Xomicron <xomicron@wp.pl> wrote in

"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:52:48 -0700, Bob Barnett

Mel wrote:

David Koresh and followers - American.

unsure. the guys at Waco never got a chance to do anyone harm.

He was banging children

is that terrorism?
no.
was that the reason the FBI and the ATF raided Waco?
no.
tell me which is worse... having sex with children or burning them
alive?
burning them alive.
Waco was an unmitigated disaster. It also led Timothy McVeigh to

his bomb.

Tim McVeigh is responsible for his own actions. To shift the blame

the Clinton administration is cowardly.

McVeigh stated that the events at Waco were what triggered his

to bomb the building in Oklahoma.
Koresh believed that the government was conspiring to kill him and

followers. He was right. The question to ask is why did the

want this cult exterminated?

That's a grotesque strawman argument. "The government" had no desire or
motive to "kill (Koresh) and his followers."

And yet that is exactly what the US government did.

Koresh predicted that they intended to so so. Koresh was correct. Those

the true facts.

It had a strong desire to take
Koresh into custody and put and end to his activities which included sex
with minors, among other things.

Well they had an opporunity to do so without laying seige to the compound

Waco, but they neglected to take advantage of that opportunity, preferring
instead to assault the compound and fire incendiary rounds into it.

The government purposefully fired incendiary rounds into the Waco

They intended to set fire to it, knowing that that would most likely kill

harm the people inside it, which included the children they were

trying to protect against Koresh.

To think that the government set fire to the Waco compound accidentally is
not even worth discussing with me. I was in the military myself
(conscripted) and I underwent basic infantry training, which included

incendiary rounds. I know what they are for, so did the US government
agents.

As for the "cult" itself, the government
had no particular design other than to get them away from Koresh by

him to jail.

Then why did they attack the compound instead of arresting the man when he
was outside of the compound?

You can't answer that question, so quit while you are ahead.

Koresh was a monster.

That was not proven.

so obvious to all that no one need any proof.

I do not know whether or not Koresh was a monster.

As was McVeigh;

was he?

McVeigh's experience of America obviously differed markedly from yours.

One thing I am quite certain of - McVeigh was a freedom loving American.

felt that his freedom was being limited by the US Federal government. He
felt the US government was the problem, not the solution.

Even though he had a vote, and the ability to write his congressman and

ability to voice his frustration in public, he felt that that was not
enough.

forward was to commit an act of terror against a US government building.

You may consider him insane, but you definitely heard his message. He
communicated something to you and to everyone in America, and to the

The message he communicated was that in the land of "freedom" there exist
people who feel that they are not free and are not able to get free via

various channels open to them.

When you think about it, his message is obviously true. There are numerous
examples of people whose freedom is restricted by government. In the USA,
and in most countries of the world, you are not free to consume what you
will. Certain things are proscribed, even to adults, because the

feels it knows what is best for you and it is going to override your
decision. There is no channel to overturn this currently.

the two of them quite
deserved each other. Unfortunately they took a lot of people down with
them, most of whom were not guilty of anything, many of whom were

The US government is responsible for the Waco deaths and while McVeigh
bombed the Oklahoma building, you have to ask why he felt it necessary to
act in such an extreme manner.

You have to ask the same question about the 9.11 bombers and the people

openly support them. You need to discover whether their demands are
reasonable or unreasonable. You need to know what their demands are. You
need to know what they did (or what others did) to try to achieve their
demands in non-violent ways. You need to realise that most probably their
demands were / are reasonable and that others who tried to gain them
peaceably were ignored.