| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"David W. Barnes" |
| Date: |
17 Dec 2004 09:06:24 PM |
| Object: |
More Murdered Civilians |
There are Right Wing Idiots out here like Gactimus and Osprey, who
laugh when they see video of US pilots bombing innocent civilians
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/F-16%20in%20Falluja.wmv
Or shooting unarmed civilians as the lie on the ground. They, like the
troops and pilots who murder these civilians, think it is funny.
Best of all, they simply DENY we are killing civilians. They say
"don't believe your eyes, believe me."
How about we believe those who have been there?
Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey: "I felt like we were committing genocide
in Iraq."
He had complained to his superiors about the "killing of innocent
civilians," but that nothing was done.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45313-2004Dec7.html
http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/Staff_Sergeant_Jimmy.html
http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/9316830p-10241546c.html
An Iraqi named Nagem Sadoon Hatab died from injuries after Lance
Corporal Christian Hernandez dragged him by the neck from one holding
area to another on the orders of Major Clarke Paulus. Corporal Roy has
been given immunity for his testimony.
http://www.jamesglaser.org/2004/p20040205.html
As one reporter stated:
http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/9316830p-10241546c.html
When I talked with Massey last week, he expressed his remorse at the
civilian loss of life in incidents in which he himself was involved.
Q: You spent 12 years in the Marines. When were you sent to Iraq?
A: I went to Kuwait around Jan. 17. I was in Iraq from the get-go. And
I was involved in the initial invasion.
Q: What does the public need to know about your experiences as a
Marine?
A: The cause of the Iraqi revolt against the American occupation. What
they need to know is we killed a lot of innocent people. I think at
first the Iraqis had the understanding that casualties are a part of
war. But over the course of time, the occupation hurt the Iraqis. And I
didn't see any humanitarian support.
Q: What experiences turned you against the war and made you leave the
Marines?
A: I was in charge of a platoon that consists of machine gunners and
missile men. Our job was to go into certain areas of the towns and
secure the roadways. There was this one particular incident - and
there's many more - the one that really pushed me over the edge. It
involved a car with Iraqi civilians. From all the intelligence reports
we were getting, the cars were loaded down with suicide bombs or
material. That's the rhetoric we received from intelligence. They came
upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn't slow
down. So we lit them up.
Q: Lit up? You mean you fired machine guns?
A: Right. Every car that we lit up we were expecting ammunition to go
off. But we never heard any. Well, this particular vehicle we didn't
destroy completely, and one gentleman looked up at me and said: "Why
did you kill my brother? We didn't do anything wrong." That hit me like
a ton of bricks.
Q: He spoke English?
A: Oh, yeah.
Q: Baghdad was being bombed. The civilians were trying to get out,
right?
A: Yes. They received pamphlets, propaganda we dropped on them. It
said, "Just throw up your hands, lay down weapons." That's what they
were doing, but we were still lighting them up. They weren't in
uniform. We never found any weapons.
Q: You got to see the bodies and casualties?
A: Yeah, firsthand. I helped throw them in a ditch.
Q: Over what period did all this take place?
A: During the invasion of Baghdad.
'We lit him up pretty good'
Q: How many times were you involved in checkpoint "light-ups"?
A: Five times. There was [the city of] Rekha. The gentleman was
driving a stolen work utility van. He didn't stop. With us being
trigger happy, we didn't really give this guy much of a chance. We lit
him up pretty good. Then we inspected the back of the van. We found
nothing. No explosives.
Q: The reports said the cars were loaded with explosives. In all the
incidents did you find that to be the case?
A: Never. Not once. There were no secondary explosions. As a matter of
fact, we lit up a rally after we heard a stray gunshot.
Q: A demonstration? Where?
A: On the outskirts of Baghdad. Near a military compound. There were
demonstrators at the end of the street. They were young and they had no
weapons. And when we rolled onto the scene, there was already a tank
that was parked on the side of the road. If the Iraqis wanted to do
something, they could have blown up the tank. But they didn't. They
were only holding a demonstration. Down at the end of the road, we saw
some RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades) lined up against the wall. That
put us at ease because we thought: "Wow, if they were going to blow us
up, they would have done it."
Q: Were the protest signs in English or Arabic?
A: Both.
Q: Who gave the order to wipe the demonstrators out?
A: Higher command. We were told to be on the lookout for the civilians
because a lot of the Fedayeen and the Republican Guards had tossed away
uniforms and put on civilian clothes and were mounting terrorist
attacks on American soldiers. The intelligence reports that were given
to us were basically known by every member of the chain of command. The
rank structure that was implemented in Iraq by the chain of command was
evident to every Marine in Iraq. The order to shoot the demonstrators,
I believe, came from senior government officials, including
intelligence communities within the military and the U.S. government.
Q: What kind of firepower was employed?
A: M-16s, 50-cal. machine guns.
Q: You fired into six or ten kids? Were they all taken out?
A: Oh, yeah. Well, I had a "mercy" on one guy. When we rolled up, he
was hiding behind a concrete pillar. I saw him and raised my weapon up,
and he put up his hands. He ran off. I told everybody, "Don't shoot."
Half of his foot was trailing behind him. So he was running with half
of his foot cut off.
Q: After you lit up the demonstration, how long before the next
incident?
A: Probably about one or two hours. This is another thing, too. I am
so glad I am talking with you, because I suppressed all of this.
Q: Well, I appreciate you giving me the information, as hard as it
must be to recall the painful details.
A: That's all right. It's kind of therapy for me. Because it's
something that I had repressed for a long time.
Q: And the incident?
A: There was an incident with one of the cars. We shot an individual
with his hands up. He got out of the car. He was badly shot. We lit him
up. I don't know who started shooting first. One of the Marines came
running over to where we were and said: "You all just shot a guy with
his hands up." Man, I forgot about this.
Depleted uranium and cluster bombs
Q: You mention machine guns. What can you tell me about cluster bombs,
or depleted uranium?
A: Depleted uranium. I know what it does. It's basically like leaving
plutonium rods around. I'm 32 years old. I have 80 percent of my lung
capacity. I ache all the time. I don't feel like a healthy 32-year-old.
Q: Were you in the vicinity of of depleted uranium?
A: Oh, yeah. It's everywhere. DU is everywhere on the battlefield. If
you hit a tank, there's dust.
Q: Did you breath any dust?
A: Yeah.
Q: And if DU is affecting you or our troops, it's impacting Iraqi
civilians.
A: Oh, yeah. They got a big wasteland problem.
Q: Do Marines have any precautions about dealing with DU?
A: Not that I know of. Well, if a tank gets hit, crews are detained
for a little while to make sure there are no signs or symptoms.
American tanks have depleted uranium on the sides, and the projectiles
have DU in them. If an enemy vehicle gets hit, the area gets
contaminated. Dead rounds are in the ground. The civilian populace is
just now starting to learn about it. Hell, I didn't even know about DU
until two years ago. You know how I found out about it? I read an
article in Rolling Stone magazine. I just started inquiring about it,
and I said "Holy s---!"
Q: Cluster bombs are also controversial. U.N. commissions have called
for a ban. Were you acquainted with cluster bombs?
A: I had one of my Marines in my battalion who lost his leg from an
ICBM.
Q: What's an ICBM?
A: A multi-purpose cluster bomb.
Q: What happened?
A: He stepped on it. We didn't get to training about clusters until
about a month before I left.
Q: What kind of training?
A: They told us what they looked like, and not to step on them.
Q: Were you in any areas where they were dropped?
A: Oh, yeah. They were everywhere.
Q: Dropped from the air?
A: From the air as well as artillery.
Q: Are they dropped far away from cities, or inside the cities?
A: They are used everywhere. Now if you talked to a Marine artillery
officer, he would give you the runaround, the politically correct
answer. But for an average grunt, they're everywhere.
Q: Including inside the towns and cities?
A: Yes, if you were going into a city, you knew there were going to be
ICBMs.
Q: Cluster bombs are anti-personnel weapons. They are not precise.
They don't injure buildings, or hurt tanks. Only people and living
things. There are a lot of undetonated duds and they go off after the
battles are over.
A: Once the round leaves the tube, the cluster bomb has a mind of its
own. There's always human error. I'm going to tell you: The armed
forces are in a tight spot over there. It's starting to leak out about
the civilian casualties that are taking place. The Iraqis know. I keep
hearing reports from my Marine buddies inside that there were
200-something civilians killed in Fallujah. The military is scrambling
right now to keep the raps on that. My understanding is Fallujah is
just littered with civilian bodies.
Embedded reporters
Q: How are the embedded reporters responding?
A: I had embedded reporters in my unit, not my platoon. One we had was
a South African reporter. He was scared s---less. We had an incident
where one of them wanted to go home.
Q: Why?
A: It was when we started going into Baghdad. When he started seeing
the civilian casualties, he started wigging out a little bit. It didn't
start until we got on the outskirts of Baghdad and started taking
civilian casualties.
Q: I would like to go back to the first incident, when the survivor
asked why did you kill his brother. Was that the incident that pushed
you over the edge, as you put it?
A: Oh, yeah. Later on I found out that was a typical day. I talked
with my commanding officer after the incident. He came up to me and
says: "Are you OK?" I said: "No, today is not a good day. We killed a
bunch of civilians." He goes: "No, today was a good day." And when he
said that, I said "Oh, my goodness, what the hell am I into?"
Q: Your feelings changed during the invasion. What was your state of
mind before the invasion?
A: I was like every other troop. My president told me they got weapons
of mass destruction, that Saddam threatened the free world, that he had
all this might and could reach us anywhere. I just bought into the
whole thing.
Q: What changed you?
A: The civilian casualties taking place. That was what made the
difference. That was when I changed.
Q: Did the revelations that the government fabricated the evidence for
war affect the troops?
A: Yes. I killed innocent people for our government. For what? What
did I do? Where is the good coming out of it? I feel like I've had a
hand in some sort of evil lie at the hands of our government. I just
feel embarrassed, ashamed about it.
Showdown with superiors
Q: I understand that all the incidents - killing civilians at
checkpoints, itchy fingers at the rally - weigh on you. What happened
with your commanding officers? How did you deal with them?
A: There was an incident. It was right after the fall of Baghdad, when
we went back down south. On the outskirts of Karbala, we had a morning
meeting on the battle plan. I was not in a good mindset. All these
things were going through my head - about what we were doing over
there. About some of the things my troops were asking. I was holding it
all inside. My lieutenant and I got into a conversation. The
conversation was striking me wrong. And I lashed out. I looked at him
and told him: "You know, I honestly feel that what we're doing is wrong
over here. We're committing genocide."
He asked me something and I said that with the killing of civilians
and the depleted uranium we're leaving over here, we're not going to
have to worry about terrorists. He didn't like that. He got up and
stormed off. And I knew right then and there that my career was over. I
was talking to my commanding officer.
Q: What happened then?
A: After I talked to the top commander, I was kind of scurried away. I
was basically put on house arrest. I didn't talk to other troops. I
didn't want to hurt them. I didn't want to jeopardize them.
I want to help people. I felt strongly about it. I had to say
something. When I was sent back to stateside, I went in front of the
sergeant major. He's in charge of 3,500-plus Marines. "Sir," I told
him, "I don't want your money. I don't want your benefits. What you did
was wrong."
It was just a personal conviction with me. I've had an impeccable
career. I chose to get out. And you know who I blame? I blame the
president of the U.S. It's not the grunt. I blame the president because
he said they had weapons of mass destruction. It was a lie.
Gactimus and Osprey keep cheering on the death and the war. As much as
the military needs people, they won't let Osprey back in. And Gactimus
is too much the coward to ever consider joining. He merely gets off
watch the body parts fly.
"We forget what war is about, what it does to those who wage it and
those who suffer from it. Those who hate war the most, I have often
found, are veterans who know it."
- Chris Hedges, New York Times reporter and author of "War Is a Force
That Gives Us Meaning"
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| User: "C.J.W." |
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| Title: Re: More Murdered Civilians |
18 Dec 2004 04:37:11 PM |
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"David W. Barnes" wrote:
<snip>
Q: What experiences turned you against the war and made you leave the
Marines?
A: I was in charge of a platoon that consists of machine gunners and
missile men. Our job was to go into certain areas of the towns and
secure the roadways. There was this one particular incident - and
there's many more - the one that really pushed me over the edge. It
involved a car with Iraqi civilians. From all the intelligence reports
we were getting, the cars were loaded down with suicide bombs or
material. That's the rhetoric we received from intelligence. They came
upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn't slow
down. So we lit them up.
Q: Lit up? You mean you fired machine guns?
A: Right. Every car that we lit up we were expecting ammunition to go
off. But we never heard any. Well, this particular vehicle we didn't
destroy completely, and one gentleman looked up at me and said: "Why
did you kill my brother? We didn't do anything wrong." That hit me like
a ton of bricks.<sinp>
Right, he is ill-equipped to fight terrorism then. Terrorists would load
civilians up and send them to the checkpoints while holding family hostage.
This puts the American soldier in the position of having to do what he had
to do. It is what it is. The obvious point, they should have stopped.
""Why did you kill my brother?"
Because you did not stop. Why did you not stop?
The fellow using this is probably one of those soldiers who just does not
get it, like John Kerry.
http://mynym.blogspot.com/2004/11/ace-and-turkeys.html
--
--W
http://mynym.blogspot.com/
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| User: "Cleopatra" |
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| Title: Re: More Murdered Civilians |
18 Dec 2004 05:44:08 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
There are Right Wing Idiots out here like Gactimus and Osprey, who
laugh when they see video of US pilots bombing innocent civilians
Barnes, I can't speak for Osprey or Gac, but this much I can tell you.
If your gang can tell us without cracking a smile that 32 million
infants whose lives have been snuffed out are a figment of my
imagination, then I can tell you shove any "documentation" you have
that even the earth orbits the sun, much less us willfully bombing
innocent civilians. Anyway, your crowd cares about innocent human life
like Hitler cared about Jews, maybe less.
Or shooting unarmed civilians as the lie on the ground. They, like the
troops and pilots who murder these civilians, think it is funny.
Well, lots of your abortovorkians think killing babies is hilarious,
too. Maybe it's rubbing off.
Best of all, they simply DENY we are killing civilians. They say
"don't believe your eyes, believe me."
Yeah, sort of like your crowd asking us for names, dates, birth
certificates, eye color, hair color and fingerprints of those 32
million infants chucked into dumpsters outside abortion mills. Nope,
never happened, right? Maybe that's rubbing off as well.
How about we believe those who have been there?
Why, your gang doesn't believe human beings are being aborted and tell
us women are having warts or something like that removed. Yep, it keeps
on rubbing off!
Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey: "I felt like we were committing genocide
in Iraq."
You want genocide, sir? 32 million is genocide, not a few hundred enemy
casualties.
Cleopatra
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: More Murdered Civilians |
18 Dec 2004 08:01:14 PM |
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Cleopatra <Blue_States_Blow@linkedto.pointyhats.com> wrote:
There are Right Wing Idiots out here like Gactimus and Osprey, who
laugh when they see video of US pilots bombing innocent civilians
There are right wing idiots like you who want to see Muslims killed by
the millions.
Barnes, I can't speak for Osprey or Gac, but this much I can tell you.
If your gang can tell us without cracking a smile that 32 million
infants whose lives have been snuffed out are a figment of my
imagination,
They're a figment of your imagination, lunatic.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: More Murdered Civilians |
18 Dec 2004 08:23:08 PM |
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In article <1103413448.049643.65000@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Cleopatra <Blue_States_Blow@linkedto.pointyhats.com> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
There are Right Wing Idiots out here like Gactimus and Osprey, who
laugh when they see video of US pilots bombing innocent civilians
But you still support them. Why?
Barnes, I can't speak for Osprey or Gac, but this much I can tell you.
If your gang can tell us without cracking a smile that 32 million
infants whose lives have been snuffed out are a figment of my
imagination, then I can tell you shove any "documentation" you have
that even the earth orbits the sun, much less us willfully bombing
innocent civilians. Anyway, your crowd cares about innocent human life
like Hitler cared about Jews, maybe less.
You opinion. Big deal. How many children have you adopted?
Or shooting unarmed civilians as the lie on the ground. They, like the
troops and pilots who murder these civilians, think it is funny.
Well, lots of your abortovorkians think killing babies is hilarious,
too. Maybe it's rubbing off.
You sure have a lot of excuses. And what is this childish making up of
words you pro-lifers do (abortovorkians)? Is seems almost exclusively
Right Wing.
Best of all, they simply DENY we are killing civilians. They say
"don't believe your eyes, believe me."
Yeah, sort of like your crowd asking us for names, dates, birth
certificates, eye color, hair color and fingerprints of those 32
million infants chucked into dumpsters outside abortion mills. Nope,
never happened, right? Maybe that's rubbing off as well.
Real responsible bunch you are.
How about we believe those who have been there?
Why, your gang doesn't believe human beings are being aborted and tell
us women are having warts or something like that removed. Yep, it keeps
on rubbing off!
We say the choice is yours. Nothing more.
Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey: "I felt like we were committing genocide
in Iraq."
You want genocide, sir? 32 million is genocide, not a few hundred enemy
casualties.
Great explaination.
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