| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"papa jack" |
| Date: |
01 Oct 2004 08:41:53 AM |
| Object: |
More Research Needed |
U.S. Newswire 09/30/2004
Care Net: Both Sides on Abortion Can Agree: More Research Needed on
Women, Depression; Applauds Committee for Looking Past Politics
http://www.troyrecord.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13043670&BRD=1170&PAG=740&dept_id=226967&rfi=6
____________________________________________________________________________
Care Net, an organization that supports a network of 780 pregnancy
support centers in North America, applauded the U.S. House Committee
on Energy and Commerce for its hearing Wednesday on understanding
depression after pregnancy, and in particular, after abortion.
"Whatever your position on abortion rights, you can agree with former
Surgeon General C. Everett Koop that there is a lack of research on
the long-term emotional effects of abortion on women," said Care Net
President Kurt Entsminger. "More research would raise awareness to the
issue and better equip those in the medical community to provide the
appropriate care."
Care Net was one of the first national organizations to bring
awareness to the impact of abortion on women in 1986 when the
organization began the Post-Abortion Counseling and Education program
(PACE). PACE consists of education about the possibility of adverse
reactions following abortion as well as peer counseling. Last year
alone, more than 5,000 post-abortive women (and over 500 men) sought
assistance from Care Net centers and participated in a post-abortion
counseling and education program.
Linda Cochrane, a national leader in post-abortion care and executive
director of Hopeline Women's Center in Danbury, Conn., agreed that
both sides of the abortion issue should support research on its
effects. She encouraged organizations that advocate abortion neither
to ostracize women who hurt after an abortion nor to deny their pain.
"When a women is sitting in front of you hurting, it doesn't matter to
her what you call her pain -- a syndrome, stress, trauma -- she's just
desperate for relief."
Rep. Joseph Pitts (R-Pa.) has introduced H.R. 4543, the Post- Abortion
Depression Research and Care Act, which provides $15 million to the
National Institutes of Health to research the emotional impact of
abortion on women. This bill also creates a $1.5 million grant program
to fund the development of treatment programs for women who suffer
after an abortion.
Women who experience post-abortion stress and are seeking recovery can
call 800-395-HELP to locate a local Care Net support center that
offers post-abortion counseling and education.
.
|
|
| User: "Paul Anderson" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
01 Oct 2004 12:06:20 PM |
|
|
On 1 Oct 2004 06:41:53 -0700, (papa jack)
wrote:
.....
Last year
alone, more than 5,000 post-abortive women (and over 500 men) sought
assistance from Care Net centers and participated in a post-abortion
counseling and education program....
Which represents one half of one percent of a single year's abortions.
The vast majority of men and women do not have any problems.
.
|
|
|
| User: "papa jack" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
02 Oct 2004 10:28:19 AM |
|
|
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
in message news:<415d8dcf.169330943@news.la.sbcglobal.net>...
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
==========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
Care Net: Both Sides on Abortion Can Agree: More Research Needed on
Women, Depression; Applauds Committee for Looking Past Politics
http://www.troyrecord.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13043670&BRD=1170&PAG=740&dept_id=226967&rfi=6
____________________________________________________________________________
Care Net, an organization that supports a network of 780 pregnancy
support centers in North America, applauded the U.S. House
Committee
on Energy and Commerce for its hearing Wednesday on understanding
depression after pregnancy, and in particular, after abortion.
"Whatever your position on abortion rights, you can agree with
former
Surgeon General C. Everett Koop that there is a lack of research on
the long-term emotional effects of abortion on women," said Care
Net
President Kurt Entsminger. "More research would raise awareness to
the
issue and better equip those in the medical community to provide
the
appropriate care."
Care Net was one of the first national organizations to bring
awareness to the impact of abortion on women in 1986 when the
organization began the Post-Abortion Counseling and Education
program
(PACE). PACE consists of education about the possibility of adverse
reactions following abortion as well as peer counseling. Last year
alone, more than 5,000 post-abortive women (and over 500 men)
sought
assistance from Care Net centers and participated in a
post-abortion
counseling and education program.
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
Which represents one half of one percent of a single year's abortions.
The vast majority of men and women do not have any problems.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
You're correct about the percent, but you offer no evidence
to support your claim that most men and women have no porblems.
This is a relatively new and limited program. I'm sure there
are many hundreds of thousands of women (and men) who've
never heard of this program.
The question is, Coyote, do you object to further study of
this problem to determine the facts? Or, would you prefer
to stick to your outdated position that ALL women who have
abortions are ALWAYS happy and healthy?
==========================================================================
Papa Jack continued quote:
Linda Cochrane, a national leader in post-abortion care and
executive
director of Hopeline Women's Center in Danbury, Conn., agreed that
both sides of the abortion issue should support research on its
effects. She encouraged organizations that advocate abortion
neither
to ostracize women who hurt after an abortion nor to deny their
pain.
"When a women is sitting in front of you hurting, it doesn't matter
to
her what you call her pain -- a syndrome, stress, trauma -- she's
just
desperate for relief."
Rep. Joseph Pitts (R-Pa.) has introduced H.R. 4543, the Post-
Abortion
Depression Research and Care Act, which provides $15 million to the
National Institutes of Health to research the emotional impact of
abortion on women. This bill also creates a $1.5 million grant
program
to fund the development of treatment programs for women who suffer
after an abortion.
Women who experience post-abortion stress and are seeking recovery
can
call 800-395-HELP to locate a local Care Net support center that
offers post-abortion counseling and education.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Paul Anderson" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
04 Oct 2004 12:02:50 PM |
|
|
(papa jack) wrote in message news:<bd9f1f6b.0410020728.46dc319b@posting.google.com>...
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
in message news:<415d8dcf.169330943@news.la.sbcglobal.net>...
What Papa Jack *claimed* I wrote is, of course, a total forgery and
lie. I trim excess *****. Papa Jack re-inserts it and then lies
and claims the I left it in. A staunch Pro-Lifer, Papa Jack is famous
for his lies and forgeries.
.....
Coyote wrote:
Which represents one half of one percent of a single year's abortions.
The vast majority of men and women do not have any problems.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
You're correct about the percent, but you offer no evidence
to support your claim that most men and women have no porblems.
This is a relatively new and limited program. I'm sure there
are many hundreds of thousands of women (and men) who've
never heard of this program.
The question is, Coyote, do you object to further study of
this problem to determine the facts? Or, would you prefer
to stick to your outdated position that ALL women who have
abortions are ALWAYS happy and healthy?
.....
Many studies have been done that show the most common emotional result
of abortion is relief. And I have *never* stated that all women who
have abortions are always happy and healthy.
Why is it that you must lie about my positions?
.
|
|
|
| User: "papa jack" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
05 Oct 2004 02:14:35 PM |
|
|
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
in message news:<ca9c748e.0410040902.1ff258de@posting.google.com>...
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote:
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
What Papa Jack *claimed* I wrote is, of course, a total
forgery and lie. I trim excess *****. Papa Jack
re-inserts it and then lies and claims the I left it in.
A staunch Pro-Lifer, Papa Jack is famous for his lies and
forgeries.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack laughed out loud:
First, Coyote "creatively" deleted 35 of 38 lines I posted.
When I replied, I decided to reinsert the excessive
deletions to show the information in context.
Now, he calls me a liar and a forger because I REINSERTED
THE ORIGINAL QUOTE I CITED IN THE INITIAL MESSAGE.
Coyote is pathetic.
==========================================================================
....
NOTE: Coyote continues to try to hide the information
I posted about Care Net's Post-Abortion Counseling and
Education program (PACE). PACE consists of education
about the possibility of adverse reactions following
abortion as well as peer counseling. Last year alone,
more than 5,000 post-abortive women (and over 500 men)
soughtassistance from Care Net centers and participated
in a post-abortion counseling and education program.
BUT, COYOTE WILL CALL ME NAMES FOR MAKING SURE THE
READERS HAVE SOME IDEA OF WHAT HE IS CRITICIZING.
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
Which represents one half of one percent of a single
year's abortions. The vast majority of men and women
do not have any problems.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
You're correct about the percent, but you offer no evidence
to support your claim that most men and women have no porblems.
This is a relatively new and limited program. I'm sure there
are many hundreds of thousands of women (and men) who've
never heard of this program.
The question is, Coyote, do you object to further study of
this problem to determine the facts? Or, would you prefer
to stick to your outdated position that ALL women who have
abortions are ALWAYS happy and healthy?
....
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
Many studies have been done that show the most common
emotional result of abortion is relief.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack ROTFLMAO:
"Many studies?" Is that your idea of "supporting" your
claim, Coyote?
* What organization conducted the studies?
* What were the details (how many sampled, how sample
chosen, controls, etc.)?
* How can we read these "MANY STUDIES?" Can you give
us URL's so we can find them?
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
And I have *never* stated that all women who
have abortions are always happy and healthy.
Why is it that you must lie about my positions?
==========================================================================
Papa Jack smiled:
Oh, I'm soooo sorry, Coyote.
But you did say your many mysterious studies:
"...show the most common emotional result
of abortion is relief."
So, why don't you provide us more details. What
percentage of girls/women who have abortions do
YOU (Coyote) believe have nothing but feeling of
relief? The word "most" could mean 51% or 99.9%.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Paul Anderson" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
06 Oct 2004 10:56:31 AM |
|
|
(papa jack) wrote in message news:<bd9f1f6b.0410051114.2a092158@posting.google.com>...
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
.....
Coyote wrote:
Many studies have been done that show the most common
emotional result of abortion is relief.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack ROTFLMAO:
"Many studies?" Is that your idea of "supporting" your
claim, Coyote?
* What organization conducted the studies?
* What were the details (how many sampled, how sample
chosen, controls, etc.)?
* How can we read these "MANY STUDIES?" Can you give
us URL's so we can find them?
==========================================================================
The information has been posted previously and you don't give a *****
about the truth, so why bother?
Coyote wrote:
And I have *never* stated that all women who
have abortions are always happy and healthy.
Why is it that you must lie about my positions?
==========================================================================
Papa Jack smiled:
Oh, I'm soooo sorry, Coyote.
But you did say your many mysterious studies:
"...show the most common emotional result
of abortion is relief."
So, why don't you provide us more details. What
percentage of girls/women who have abortions do
YOU (Coyote) believe have nothing but feeling of
relief? The word "most" could mean 51% or 99.9%.
"Most" is not "all". You fail to answer the question as to why you
feel it is necessary to lie about what others post and believe. Is
the Pro-Life position so weak that the truth will not suffice? Why is
it I cannot get truthful answers to my questions? How am I expected
to support the Pro-Life position when I am constantly lied to?
.
|
|
|
| User: "papa jack" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
06 Oct 2004 07:09:07 PM |
|
|
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
in message news:<ca9c748e.0410060756.6f9dc27f@posting.google.com>...
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
What Papa Jack *claimed* I wrote is, of course, a total
forgery and lie. I trim excess *****. Papa Jack
re-inserts it and then lies and claims the I left it in.
A staunch Pro-Lifer, Papa Jack is famous for his lies and
forgeries.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack laughed out loud:
First, Coyote "creatively" deleted 35 of 38 lines I posted.
When I replied, I decided to reinsert the excessive
deletions to show the information in context.
Now, he calls me a liar and a forger because I REINSERTED
THE ORIGINAL QUOTE I CITED IN THE INITIAL MESSAGE.
Coyote is pathetic.
==========================================================================
NOTE: Coyote continues to try to hide the information
I posted about Care Net's Post-Abortion Counseling and
Education program (PACE). PACE consists of education
about the possibility of adverse reactions following
abortion as well as peer counseling. Last year alone,
more than 5,000 post-abortive women (and over 500 men)
soughtassistance from Care Net centers and participated
in a post-abortion counseling and education program.
BUT, COYOTE WILL CALL ME NAMES FOR MAKING SURE THE
READERS HAVE SOME IDEA OF WHAT HE IS CRITICIZING.
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
Which represents one half of one percent of a single
year's abortions. The vast majority of men and women
do not have any problems.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
You're correct about the percent, but you offer no evidence
to support your claim that most men and women have no porblems.
This is a relatively new and limited program. I'm sure there
are many hundreds of thousands of women (and men) who've
never heard of this program.
The question is, Coyote, do you object to further study of
this problem to determine the facts? Or, would you prefer
to stick to your outdated position that ALL women who have
abortions are ALWAYS happy and healthy?
....
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
Many studies have been done that show the most common
emotional result of abortion is relief.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack ROTFLMAO:
"Many studies?" Is that your idea of "supporting" your
claim, Coyote?
* What organization conducted the studies?
* What were the details (how many sampled, how sample
chosen, controls, etc.)?
* How can we read these "MANY STUDIES?" Can you give
us URL's so we can find them?
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
The information has been posted previously and you don't
give a ***** about the truth, so why bother?
==========================================================================
Papa Jack shook his head:
See, I told you Coyote was pathetic. What a weak
excuse for running away from a legitimate question.
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
And I have *never* stated that all women who
have abortions are always happy and healthy.
Why is it that you must lie about my positions?
==========================================================================
Papa Jack smiled:
Oh, I'm soooo sorry, Coyote.
But you did say your many mysterious studies:
"...show the most common emotional result
of abortion is relief."
So, why don't you provide us more details. What
percentage of girls/women who have abortions do
YOU (Coyote) believe have nothing but feeling of
relief? The word "most" could mean 51% or 99.9%.
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
"Most" is not "all".
==========================================================================
Papa Jack grinned:
Coyote, I told you, "I'm soooo sorry, Coyote." What
else do you expect?
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
You fail to answer the question as to why you feel it
is necessary to lie about what others post and believe....
==========================================================================
Papa Jack demanded:
And, when are you, Coyote, going to answer "Yes" or "No"
to my question about whether you have quit beating your
wife?
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
...Is the Pro-Life position so weak that the truth will
not suffice? Why is it I cannot get truthful answers to
my questions?...
==========================================================================
Papa Jack suggested:
Have you tried a reading comprehension class, Coyote?
I've provided you dozens of truthful answers to your
questions, but you never seem to understand what I
write. Instead your run off on these inane tangents.
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
...How am I expected to support the Pro-Life position
==========================================================================
Papa Jack explained:
You're not expected to "support the Pro-Life position."
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
...when I am constantly lied to?
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Please take a remedial reading comprehension course at your
local high school. That might also help you pass the GED test
to get your high school diploma.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
06 Oct 2004 07:29:11 PM |
|
|
papa jackass <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
The information has been posted previously and you don't
give a ***** about the truth, so why bother?
See, I told you Coyote was pathetic. What a weak
excuse for running away from a legitimate question.
He's right. You've seen the information, tried to argue
against the studies, and here you are acting like you've never
heard of them.
What's your excuse?
Senility? Or do you just like being an *****?
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "papa jack" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
07 Oct 2004 10:36:14 AM |
|
|
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote
in message news:<ck22km$21j$1@bolt.sonic.net>...
papa jack <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
==========================================================================
[snip]
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
Which represents one half of one percent of a single
year's abortions. The vast majority of men and women
do not have any problems.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
You're correct about the percent, but you offer no evidence
to support your claim that most men and women have no porblems.
This is a relatively new and limited program. I'm sure there
are many hundreds of thousands of women (and men) who've
never heard of this program.
The question is, Coyote, do you object to further study of
this problem to determine the facts? Or, would you prefer
to stick to your outdated position that ALL women who have
abortions are ALWAYS happy and healthy?
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
Many studies have been done that show the most common
emotional result of abortion is relief.
==========================================================================
Papa Jack ROTFLMAO:
"Many studies?" Is that your idea of "supporting" your
claim, Coyote?
* What organization conducted the studies?
* What were the details (how many sampled, how sample
chosen, controls, etc.)?
* How can we read these "MANY STUDIES?" Can you give
us URL's so we can find them?
==========================================================================
Coyote wrote:
The information has been posted previously and you don't
give a ***** about the truth, so why bother?
==========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
See, I told you Coyote was pathetic. What a weak
excuse for running away from a legitimate question.
==========================================================================
Ray Fischer rushes in to prove he's just as pathetic:
He's right. You've seen the information,
==========================================================================
Papa Jack laughed:
What information? You losers don't even bother to cite
an author, a title, a URL, or anything else. There are
tens of thousands of studies done in the U.S. every year.
Are we talking about a study published this year, last
year, or 10 years ago.
==========================================================================
Ray Fischer screeched, waving his arms:
...tried to argue against the studies,...
==========================================================================
Papa Jack asked:
What studies? Are you and Coyote talking about two
studies, five studies, or 100?
==========================================================================
Ray Fischer sputtered (all over the keyboard):
...and here you are acting like you've never heard of them....
==========================================================================
Papa Jack smiled:
Heard of what? You have to be more specific for me to
remember whether I have or not.
All you've told me so far is "some studies." That's not
good enough to support anything.
==========================================================================
Ray Fischer
What's your excuse?
Senility? Or do you just like being an *****?
==========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
I like holding you Pro-Aborts to the same standards
you repeatedly try to hold Pro-Lifers to.
BTW, how can I be a jackass and an ***** at the same
time? I do wish you'd try to be more consistent, Ray. 8^)
Thanks for considering my point of view.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
05 Oct 2004 07:20:14 PM |
|
|
papa jackass <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
What Papa Jack *claimed* I wrote is, of course, a total
forgery and lie. I trim excess *****. Papa Jack
re-inserts it and then lies and claims the I left it in.
A staunch Pro-Lifer, Papa Jack is famous for his lies and
forgeries.
First, Coyote "creatively" deleted 35 of 38 lines I posted.
That's lie #1. It wasn't "creative".
When I replied, I decided to reinsert the excessive
deletions to show the information in context.
You decided to lie about what he had posted when you quoted what he had posted.
You claimed he posted text that he didn't. That make syou a liar.
Now, he calls me a liar and a forger because I REINSERTED
THE ORIGINAL QUOTE I CITED IN THE INITIAL MESSAGE.
You are lying, Jackass. You did nothing to the initial message. Neither
did Coyote. You inserted text that was not present in what he posted, thus
lying about what he had posted.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "papa jack" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
06 Oct 2004 09:13:05 AM |
|
|
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote
in message news:<cjvdnt$vdo$1@bolt.sonic.net>...
papa jack <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
=======================================================================
Coyote wrote:
What Papa Jack *claimed* I wrote is, of course, a total
forgery and lie. I trim excess *****. Papa Jack
re-inserts it and then lies and claims the I left it in.
A staunch Pro-Lifer, Papa Jack is famous for his lies and
forgeries.
=======================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
First, Coyote "creatively" deleted 35 of 38 lines I posted.
=======================================================================
Ray Fischer wrote:
..."creative".
=======================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
Yep, "creative." Anytime you cut out 92% of what the other
guy writes BEFORE you reply, it's likely to be "creative"
snipping.
=======================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
When I replied, I decided to reinsert the excessive
deletions to show the information in context.
=======================================================================
Ray Fischer wrote:
...he posted text... ...make syou [sic] a liar.
=======================================================================
Papa Jack laughed:
Yep, he left only 8% of what I initally posted, and
thus commented on one single sentence out of several
paragraphs which described a particular program. IOW,
he took it OUT OF CONTEXT.
=======================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
Now, he calls me a liar and a forger because I REINSERTED
THE ORIGINAL QUOTE I CITED IN THE INITIAL MESSAGE.
=======================================================================
Ray Fischer wrote:
...Neither... ...Coyote. You inserted ..., thus
lying about...
=======================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
BTW, Ray, I totally reject your inane suggestion that
it is "LYING" or "FORGING" when I reinsert lines from
the previous message to help establish the context of
the discussion at hand.
I will continue to reinsert words, phrases, or lines
from the previous message as long as I think it's
necessary.
I know that makes Pro-Aborts angry because one of your
favorite tactics is to chop up the Pro-Lifer's messages
to steer the discussion away from anything meaningful.
We all realize YOU, RAY FISCHER, are one of the primary
ones who constantly uses this underhanded tactic.
BTW, are you happy with the way I "creatively" deleted
"minor" parts of your comments above? No? So sorry -- NOT.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
06 Oct 2004 03:52:14 PM |
|
|
papa jackass <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote
papa jack <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
What Papa Jack *claimed* I wrote is, of course, a total
forgery and lie. I trim excess *****. Papa Jack
re-inserts it and then lies and claims the I left it in.
A staunch Pro-Lifer, Papa Jack is famous for his lies and
forgeries.
First, Coyote "creatively" deleted 35 of 38 lines I posted.
..."creative".
Yep, "creative."
Now Jackass is lying outright about what I wrote.
Business as usual.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "papa jack" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
07 Oct 2004 10:48:21 AM |
|
|
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote
in message news:<ck1ltt$985$1@bolt.sonic.net>...
papa jack <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote
papa jack <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
=======================================================================
Coyote wrote:
What Papa Jack *claimed* I wrote is, of course, a total
forgery and lie. I trim excess *****. Papa Jack
?> re-inserts it and then lies and claims the I left it in.
A staunch Pro-Lifer, Papa Jack is famous for his lies and
forgeries.
=======================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
First, Coyote "creatively" deleted 35 of 38 lines I posted.
=======================================================================
Ray Fischer wrote:
..."creative".
=======================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
Yep, "creative." Anytime you cut out 92% of what the other
guy writes BEFORE you reply, it's likely to be "creative"
snipping.
=======================================================================
Ray Fischer wrote:
Now Jackass is lying outright about what I wrote.
Business as usual.
=======================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
I'm not "LYING," Ray -- I'm just creatively deleting
parts of what you previously posted.
As Coyote said:
"...I trim excess *****...."
Since at least 98% of what you post is BS, we actually
should consistently trim almost all of what you post. 8^)
=======================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
When I replied, I decided to reinsert the excessive
deletions to show the information in context.
=======================================================================
Ray Fischer wrote:
...he posted text... ...make syou [sic] a liar.
=======================================================================
Papa Jack laughed:
Yep, he left only 8% of what I initally posted, and
thus commented on one single sentence out of several
paragraphs which described a particular program. IOW,
he took it OUT OF CONTEXT.
=======================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
Now, he calls me a liar and a forger because I REINSERTED
THE ORIGINAL QUOTE I CITED IN THE INITIAL MESSAGE.
=======================================================================
Ray Fischer wrote:
...Neither... ...Coyote. You inserted ..., thus
lying about...
=======================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
BTW, Ray, I totally reject your inane suggestion that
it is "LYING" or "FORGING" when I reinsert lines from
the previous message to help establish the context of
the discussion at hand.
I will continue to reinsert words, phrases, or lines
from the previous message as long as I think it's
necessary.
I know that makes Pro-Aborts angry because one of your
favorite tactics is to chop up the Pro-Lifer's messages
to steer the discussion away from anything meaningful.
We all realize YOU, RAY FISCHER, are one of the primary
ones who constantly uses this underhanded tactic.
BTW, are you happy with the way I "creatively" deleted
"minor" parts of your comments above? No? So sorry -- NOT.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Jackass caught lying - no news at 11 |
07 Oct 2004 10:08:24 PM |
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papa jackass <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote
What Papa Jack *claimed* I wrote is, of course, a total
forgery and lie. I trim excess *****. Papa Jack
?> re-inserts it and then lies and claims the I left it in.
A staunch Pro-Lifer, Papa Jack is famous for his lies and
forgeries.
First, Coyote "creatively" deleted 35 of 38 lines I posted.
..."creative".
Yep, "creative." Anytime you cut out 92% of what the other
guy writes BEFORE you reply, it's likely to be "creative"
snipping.
Now Jackass is lying outright about what I wrote.
Business as usual.
I'm not "LYING,"
You are lying, Jackass. You deliberately and intentionally
misrepresented what I wrote AND THEN LIED ABOUT IT.
But gievn your appalling lack of morals that doesn't surprise me
at all.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "John Savard" |
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| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
04 Oct 2004 10:33:28 AM |
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On 2 Oct 2004 08:28:19 -0700, (papa jack)
wrote, in part:
The question is, Coyote, do you object to further study of
this problem to determine the facts? Or, would you prefer
to stick to your outdated position that ALL women who have
abortions are ALWAYS happy and healthy?
I think both sides agree that objective scientific research is a good
idea.
Also, I think both sides oppose any study that tries to appear as though
it is objective and scientific, but which instead merely advances the
political agenda of the researchers.
On top of that, both sides are likely to be more sensitive to the
possibility of that in the case of studies whose findings do not support
their viewpoint.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
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| User: "Galen Hekhuis" |
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| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
05 Oct 2004 02:22:26 PM |
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On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 15:33:28 GMT, jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John
Savard) wrote:
On 2 Oct 2004 08:28:19 -0700, (papa jack)
wrote, in part:
The question is, Coyote, do you object to further study of
this problem to determine the facts? Or, would you prefer
to stick to your outdated position that ALL women who have
abortions are ALWAYS happy and healthy?
I think both sides agree that objective scientific research is a good
idea.
Also, I think both sides oppose any study that tries to appear as though
it is objective and scientific, but which instead merely advances the
political agenda of the researchers.
On top of that, both sides are likely to be more sensitive to the
possibility of that in the case of studies whose findings do not support
their viewpoint.
At least one person doesn't think more research is needed. It would be
interesting to me, but would hardly change my thinking on the legality of
choice. McDonald's cheeseburgers have been shown in many studies to
contribute to obesity, heart disease, any number of things, however I don't
think eating cheeseburgers should be illegal. Personally, I don't eat
them, but would hardly enforce my opinion by law. Likewise, an 81 mg
aspirin tablet has been shown by many studies to be very beneficial to some
folks, however I would be loathe to back any move to force others to take
aspirin. It's a CHOICE. If you think it is bad for you (perhaps you have
consulted a physician, or perhaps a spiritual advisor or something) I think
you ought to be free to make such a CHOICE. I don't think anymore
research, whatever the outcome, would serve to "clear the air" about
whether or not the CHOICE should be legal.
Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Illiterate? Write for FREE help
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
02 Oct 2004 02:14:38 PM |
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papa jackass <papajack37@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
Which represents one half of one percent of a single year's abortions.
The vast majority of men and women do not have any problems.
You're correct about the percent, but you offer no evidence
to support your claim that most men and women have no porblems.
According to the Centers for Disease Control, childbirth is roughly
ten times as likely to kill a woman as is an abortion.
And then there is this, which you've seen repeatedly and still
try to ignore.
========================================================================
THE MYTH OF POST-ABORTION TRAUMA
by Henry P David PhD
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Induced abortion is one of the oldest forms of fertility regulation.
Perhaps no other elective procedure has evoked as much public debate,
generated such emotional and moral controversy or received greater
sustained attention from the media. As has long been recognised, there
is no psychologically painless way of coping with an unwanted pregnancy.
While an abortion may elicit feelings of regret, guilt or loss, an
alternative solution, such as a forced marriage, giving a baby up for
adoption or adding an unwanted child to an already strained partner
relationship, is also likely to be accompanied by psychological problems
for the woman, the child and society.
Of all the complications of abortion, psychological responses are the
most difficult to assess and evaluatepfar more so than mortality and
morbidity statistics. Assuming that psychiatric or psychological
morbidity is a real and measurable phenomenon, the explanation for the
wide range of opinions expressed in the literature may well lie in the
inadequacy of much of the published work. Included in the scientific
deficiencies are an overemphasis on clinical case histories that ignore
the large majority of women who terminate unwanted pregnancies and never
seek post-operative mental health consultation; the absence of
standardised follow-up procedures; failure to reach consensus on
diagnostic psychological criteria; or disagreement on psychological
variables related to the sociocultural context within which the abortion
decision occurs. Differing political, moral, ethical and religious
perspectives impinge on how abortion is perceived by diverse observers.
Post-abortion trauma was initially described by Rue1 as a variant of
post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Subsequently it has been asserted
that in 1987 the American Psychiatric Association acknowledged in its
newly revised manual of diagnostic criteria, the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders III-R (DSM-III-R) that abortion
is a type of 'psychosocial stressor.' However, the American Psychiatric
Association never published a statement suggesting this. Neither the
1987 nor the 1994 revision of the APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
(DSM III-R and IV) mention abortion in relation to post-traumatic stress
disorder. Indeed, the only mention of abortion in DSM IV is spontaneous
abortion.
As defined by the APA, PTSD is a disabling condition 'following exposure
to an extreme traumatic stressor involving direct personal experience of
an event that involves actual or threatened death or serious injury'.
Likely stressors cited by APA as examples of PTSD include military
combat, violent personal assault, terrorist attack, and being held
hostage. It is quite a stretch to claim abortion as a stressor likely to
induce PTSD.
Usdin2, one of the major developers of the concept of post-traumatic
stress disorder noted that one of the criteria for PTSD is experiencing
'an event that is outside the range of usual human experience and that
would be markedly distressing to almost anyone.' Considering that more
than 30 million women in the USA and four million women in the UK have
experienced abortion since its legalisation it can hardly be said that
the abortion experience is outside the range of usual human experience.
There has been no reported increase in public or private mental health
services for women attributing their current psychological problems to
abortion.
The rationale for post-abortion syndrome (PAS) was developed by A C
Speckhard in 1985 in an unpublished thesis based on interviews with 30
women recruited for her doctoral dissertation in sociology at the
University of Minnesota. The women had been recruited because they
deemed their abortion experience to have been 'highly stressful'. The
time between the retrospective account and the most recent abortion
varied from one to 25 years. Both legal and clandestine abortions were
included. 46 per cent of the sample had second trimester abortions and
four per cent experienced third trimester terminations, both known to be
more psychologically stressful than first trimester procedures. Whereas
over 90 per cent of all women having abortions in 1990 had them in the
first trimester, only 50 per cent of Speckhard's sample reported first
trimester abortions. More than nine out of 10 (92 per cent) of the women
recalled feelings of anger, hostility or rage toward individuals
(including partner, medical professionals and significant others) who
were perceived as having been coercive in the abortion decision-making
process. Moreover, 96 per cent of the subjects 'regarded abortion as the
taking of a life or as murder,' an observation very likely to heighten
feelings of guilt and perceptions of stress. Speckhard later cautioned
readers that 'the generalisability of the results is severely limited by
the size of the sample and the sampling methodology,' adding that 'the
results presented do not necessarily apply to all women who have
abortions, or even to that proportion of women who are highly stressed
following abortion.' It was indeed an atypical sample.
Recognising the political, ethical and moral issues intertwined with
abortion and in response to questions raised in the United States
Congress about the medical and mental health effects of abortion, the
American Psychological Association, in 1989, convened an expert panel to
examine psychological factors. The panel's mission was not to assess
values but to consider the best available evidence on psychological
responses to abortion. It focused on studies with the most rigorous
research designs, reporting findings on the psychological status of
women who had legal abortions under non-restrictive circumstances, that
is, on request in the first trimester and not solely on grounds of
physical or mental health.
The panel found that psychological distress is generally greatest before
the abortion when the woman has to decide how to resolve an unwanted
pregnancy. Responses after abortion reflect the range of psychological
experience and the resources a woman has for coping with negative life
events. While there may be temporary sensations of regret, sadness or
guilt the weight of the evidence indicates that legal abortion of an
unwanted pregnancy in the first trimester does not pose a severe
psychological hazard for the vast majority of women. Indeed, most women
report experiencing a feeling of reliefpof anxiety lifted.
A longer term study3 found that the wellbeing of 773 women, interviewed
annually in a national sample of 5,295 women, was unrelated to their
abortion experience eight years earlier. Women who had had an abortion
had a statistically significant higher global self-esteem rating than
women who had never had an abortion. This difference was even greater
when comparing aborting women with those delivering unwanted pregnancies
(who had the lowest self-esteem). Women who had experienced repeat
abortions did not differ in self-esteem from women who had never had an
abortion. In all, the evidence confirmed earlier findings that factors
other than the abortion experience itself determine post abortion
emotional status, particularly how a woman perceives her pregnancy and
how she believes it to be perceived in her immediate social environment.
Some women continually reconstruct and reinterpret past events in the
light of subsequent experience and can be pressured into feeling guilt
and shame long afterwards.
Denmark offers unique opportunities for research in reproductive health
because it has a uniform national population registration system that
provides access to national abortion, birth and admission to psychiatric
hospital registers. Linkage among these registers makes it possible to
compare the risks of psychiatric hospital admission following abortion
and childbirth. However, because there may be a bias against
hospitalising a new mother, particularly if she is nursing, the relative
psychological risk of abortion compared with childbirth may be
exaggerated by using hospital admission as an operational indicator of
psychiatric illness.
Controlling for previous psychiatric history, first time psychiatric
hospital admissions were tracked three months post-abortion and
postpartum and for all other women experiencing no fertility event under
age 50 residing in Denmark. Data were obtained on 27,234 women
terminating pregnancy, 71,378 women carrying to term and the total
population of 1,169,819 women 15-49 years old.4
Among women who were married or living in a stable partner relationship,
the post-pregnancy risk of admission to a psychiatric hospital was about
the same for abortions or deliveries: approximately 1.3 per 1,000
abortions and 1.2 per 1,000 deliveries. While the difference between
rates for abortions and deliveries was not statistically significant,
the rate for the total population of women was considerably lower (0.7
per 1,000). Among a smaller group of separated, divorced or widowed
women, those who had terminated pregnancies showed a substantially
higher psychiatric admission rate (6.4 per 1,000) than did separated,
divorced or widowed women carrying to term (1.7 per 1,000). Women who
are divorced, separated or widowed may be relatively more likely to be
terminating pregnancies that were originally intended, placing them at
higher risk for negative post-abortion psychological reactions. However,
in the aggregate, there appeared to be little risk to psychological
wellbeing after
either abortion or delivery in Denmark.
In a longer term (up to 11 years) prospective cohort study5 of 13,261
women, organised jointly by the Royal Colleges of Obstetricians and
Gynaecologists and of General Practitioners in the United Kingdom, there
were four comparison groups: 6,151 women who did not request abortion,
6,410 who obtained an abortion, 379 whose request for abortion was
denied, and 371 who requested an abortion and then changed their minds.
Among the study's key findings were that (a) among women with equivalent
past psychiatric histories there were no significant differences between
the comparison groups in overall rates of psychiatric illness; (b) women
with a previous history of psychosis were more likely to experience a
psychotic episode during the period of the study than those who had no
such history and that termination of pregnancy did not appear to
increase the risk; (c) women with a past history of non-psychotic
disorder or no history of psychiatric disorder who had a termination
were significantly less likely to have a psychotic episode than those
who did not request a termination; and (d) in women with no previous
history of psychosis the risk of psychosis after termination appeared to
be lower than after childbirth.
The authors note that many women were lost to follow-up during the study
and that at the end just 2,122 (34.4 per cent) of the termination group
and 3,000 (42.4 per cent) of those who did not request a termination
were still under observation but that comparisons between the groups
were still valid.
Severe psychological reactions after abortion are infrequent. Psychoses
are very uncommon, being reported in only 0.3 to 1.2 per 1,000 legal
abortions. Individual case studies and anecdotal reports of severe
stress or psychopathology following abortion abound in some of the
literature but there is no clear evidence of causal linkage to abortion.
While such responses can be emotionally overwhelming for the woman
concerned and for her family, the number of such cases is very small,
and has been characterised by former US Surgeon General C Everett Koop
as 'minuscule from a public health perspective'. Women identified in the
research literature as being at some risk for negative psychological
reactionspand in potential need of special counsellingpare those who
terminate a very much wanted pregnancy for medical reasons; lack support
from partners or parents for their decision; were coerced into making a
decision they subsequently regretted; are conflicted about deeply held
religious values; are uncertain of their coping abilities beforehand;
blame themselves for the pregnancy; delay into the second trimester or
had a previous psychiatric episode.
For the vast majority of women, an abortion will be followed by a
mixture of emotions, with a predominance of positive feelings. This
holds immediately after abortion and for some time afterward. Little is
known about very long term effects beyond 10 years. However, the
positive picture reported up to eight years after abortion makes it
unlikely that more negative responses will emerge later. Severe negative
reactions are rare. The time of greatest stress is likely to be before
the abortion decision is made. In all, evidence from the research
literature suggests that, in the aggregate, legal abortion of an
unwanted pregnancy in the first trimester does not pose a psychological
hazard for most women. They tend to cope successfully and go on with
their lives. There is, as yet, no credible evidence for the existence of
post-abortion syndrome.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Rue VM. Abortion and family relations, Testimony presented before the
Subcommittee on the Constitution, US Senate Judiciary Committee, US
Senate, 97th Congress, Washington DC 1981.
2Usdin G. Psychiatry, letters, February 1990.
3Russo NF, Zierk KL. Abortion, childbearing and women's well-being,
Professional Psychology: Research and Practice 1992, 23: 269-280.
4David HP. Post-abortion and postpartum psychiatric hospitalisation in R
Porter and M O'Connor (eds) Abortion: Medical progress and social
implications Ciba Symposium No 45 London, Pitman 1985,150-161.
5Gilchrist AC, Hannaford PC, Frank P, Kay CR. Termination of pregnancy
and psychiatric morbidity, British Journal of Psychiatry 1995, 167:
243-248.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prepared for presentation at the international conference on abortion,
Abortion Matters, in Amsterdam, The Netherlands, 27-29 March 1996. An
expanded, fully referenced version of this paper is available from Birth
Control Trust.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Sports Pants" |
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| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
03 Oct 2004 08:41:04 PM |
|
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In article <415d8dcf.169330943@news.la.sbcglobal.net>,
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote:
On 1 Oct 2004 06:41:53 -0700, (papa jack)
wrote:
....
Last year
alone, more than 5,000 post-abortive women (and over 500 men) sought
assistance from Care Net centers and participated in a post-abortion
counseling and education program....
Which represents one half of one percent of a single year's abortions.
The vast majority of men and women do not have any problems.
Do you have the research that conclusively proves this? Well then by all
means turn it in to C. Everett Koop so everybody else can know, too!
--
ROBERT CAPONI: The man who with the|"Akhtar didn't come here to
power of his brain plumbed the depths|live the American dream, he
of the mysteries of the Universe. |came here to kill you."
‹‹‹ € ‹‹‹ |
http://home.earthlink.net/~tagutcow | -- local political ad
.
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| User: "Paul Anderson" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
04 Oct 2004 11:55:20 AM |
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(Sports Pants) wrote in message news:<tagutcow-0310042129100001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com>...
In article <415d8dcf.169330943@news.la.sbcglobal.net>,
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote:
On 1 Oct 2004 06:41:53 -0700, (papa jack)
wrote:
....
Last year
alone, more than 5,000 post-abortive women (and over 500 men) sought
assistance from Care Net centers and participated in a post-abortion
counseling and education program....
Which represents one half of one percent of a single year's abortions.
The vast majority of men and women do not have any problems.
Do you have the research that conclusively proves this? Well then by all
means turn it in to C. Everett Koop so everybody else can know, too!
5,000 is one half of one percent of 1,000,000. Which is less than the
annual number of abortions in the U.S.. If you wish to contest this
and claim we have far less abortions per year please feel free to do
so.
.
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| User: "Sports Pants" |
|
| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
04 Oct 2004 01:42:58 PM |
|
|
In article <ca9c748e.0410040855.3312d4e@posting.google.com>,
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote:
tagutcow@earthlink.net (Sports Pants) wrote in message
news:<tagutcow-0310042129100001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com>...
In article <415d8dcf.169330943@news.la.sbcglobal.net>,
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote:
On 1 Oct 2004 06:41:53 -0700, (papa jack)
wrote:
....
Last year
alone, more than 5,000 post-abortive women (and over 500 men) sought
assistance from Care Net centers and participated in a post-abortion
counseling and education program....
Which represents one half of one percent of a single year's abortions.
The vast majority of men and women do not have any problems.
Do you have the research that conclusively proves this? Well then by all
means turn it in to C. Everett Koop so everybody else can know, too!
5,000 is one half of one percent of 1,000,000. Which is less than the
annual number of abortions in the U.S.. If you wish to contest this
and claim we have far less abortions per year please feel free to do
so.
Context clues: my objection was to your *second* sentence.
--
ROBERT CAPONI: The man who with the|"Akhtar didn't come here to
power of his brain plumbed the depths|live the American dream, he
of the mysteries of the Universe. |came here to kill you."
‹‹‹ € ‹‹‹ |
http://home.earthlink.net/~tagutcow | -- local political ad
.
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| User: "Paul Anderson" |
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| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
04 Oct 2004 03:22:53 PM |
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On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 18:42:58 GMT, (Sports
Pants) wrote:
In article <ca9c748e.0410040855.3312d4e@posting.google.com>,
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote:
(Sports Pants) wrote in message
news:<tagutcow-0310042129100001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com>...
In article <415d8dcf.169330943@news.la.sbcglobal.net>,
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote:
On 1 Oct 2004 06:41:53 -0700, (papa jack)
wrote:
....
Last year
alone, more than 5,000 post-abortive women (and over 500 men) sought
assistance from Care Net centers and participated in a post-abortion
counseling and education program....
Which represents one half of one percent of a single year's abortions.
The vast majority of men and women do not have any problems.
Do you have the research that conclusively proves this? Well then by all
means turn it in to C. Everett Koop so everybody else can know, too!
5,000 is one half of one percent of 1,000,000. Which is less than the
annual number of abortions in the U.S.. If you wish to contest this
and claim we have far less abortions per year please feel free to do
so.
Context clues: my objection was to your *second* sentence.
You might have stated such the first time around. As I said to Papa
Jack, many studies have been done that show the most common emotional
result of abortion is relief. Ray cited one such. Not to mention
that it is obvious from the fact that there are not several millions
of woman suffering from post-abortion stress syndrome (or whatever
they are calling it.)
.
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| User: "papa jack" |
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| Title: Re: More Research Needed |
06 Oct 2004 09:40:21 AM |
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elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote
in message news:<4161b06d.440353811@news.la.sbcglobal.net>...
tagutcow@earthlink.net (Sports Pants) wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote:
tagutcow@earthlink.net (Sports Pants) wrote:
elcoyote@netzero.net (Paul Anderson) wrote:
papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote:
==============================================================================
.... {BIG snip by Coyote]
...Last year
alone, more than 5,000 post-abortive women (and over 500 men) sought
assistance from Care Net centers and participated in a post-abortion
counseling and education program....
==============================================================================
Coyote wrote:
Which represents one half of one percent of a single year's abortions.
The vast majority of men and women do not have any problems.
==============================================================================
Sports Pants wrote:
Do you have the research that conclusively proves this? Well then by all
means turn it in to C. Everett Koop so everybody else can know, too!
==============================================================================
Coyote wrote:
5,000 is one half of one percent of 1,000,000. Which is less than the
annual number of abortions in the U.S.. If you wish to contest this
and claim we have far less abortions per year please feel free to do
so.
==============================================================================
Sports Pants wrote:
Context clues: my objection was to your *second* sentence.
==============================================================================
Coyote wrote:
You might have stated such the first time around. As I said to Papa
Jack, many studies have been done that show the most common emotional
result of abortion is relief. Ray cited one such. Not to mention
that it is obvious from the fact that there are not several millions
of woman suffering from post-abortion stress syndrome (or whatever
they are calling it.)
==============================================================================
Papa Jack laughed:
Sports Pants, don't hold your breath until Coyote substantiates
his usual jibber-jabber. He thinks he already has when he told
you "...many studies have been done that show..." You are sup-
posed to just take his word for the existence of such "studies."
I think Coyote plans to finish high school next year.
.
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