Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler wrote:

I could object to slavery on the grounds that the slaves are not being given an
equal opportunity to be full, contributing members of society. Thus all of
society (including myself) is lessened by the slavery of a few men.

I do object to abortion on the same grounds.

In article <xSvUg.2188$%6.46962@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>,
Carter <per.ardua@ad.astra> wrote:

: > When pro abortionists start going around forcing other people to have abortions,
: > I'll condemn that just the same way as I condemn anti-abortionists trying to
: > force other people to not have abortions. (not saying that hasn't or can't
: > happen, but it's not the usual pro-abortion position)
:
: Of course I knew that would be your answer. It is the answer of
: all pro abortionists. It, of course, ignores the fact that one
: does not have to force another to have an abortion in order to
: force his morals on another. He only has to insist that
: abortion, which the other considers immoral, is his right.

Well, if you're not the mother, immediate family, or unborn fetus, you're not
really involved, are you?

: I said the law *happens* to be well
: > aligned with most of most people's morals, but that this moral alignment is not
: > the foundation that the laws are built on, nor should it be.
:
: Values and morals form most of the foundation of laws, it is not
: a coincidence.

Then we disagree.

better understand my position. You obviously have a lot to learn.

Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler wrote:

In article <edkUg.2037$%6.43998@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>,
Carter <per.ardua@ad.astra> wrote:

: That's not only trite, it is incorrect. Manslaughter and
: infanticide are both close to murder in a legal sense.

Blah blah blah, murder, manslaughter, infanticide. Nothing more than loaded
words intended to provoke an emotional reaction. It may seem sincere to
you, but
to others it's trite and tiresome, and does not progress the discussion in
any
meaningful way.

I think you missed my point completely.

The whole situation boils down to the fact that anti-abortionists believe
that
their particular set of morals is somehow absolute, universal and/or
divine, and
that justifies them trying to force their morals onto others. If you
believe
that's right, then that's fine, but that's not a free and just country;
more
like an arbitrary theocracy.

So what would you call it when pro abortionists force their
beliefs onto others?

Despite what some might think, the law is not an instrument of morality.
While
most things it might proscribe happen to be commonly held as immoral, and
most
things it allows may happen to be commonly moral, morality itself should
never
be the foundation of laws.

Two sentences, the second of which contradicts the first.

Whether you like it or not, the laws of a country are a direct
reflection of the values and morals of the majority of the
population.

If you are morally opposed to abortion, then don't have an abortion.
However,
recognize that nothing gives you the right to force that view on others,
nor
should anything.

If you are a pro abortionist recognize that nothing gives you the
right to force that view on others.

The courts have ruled (iirc) that the rights of the mother supersede the
rights
of the fetus until it can be reasonably considered to be a fully
independent
being (roughly the beginning of the third trimester). Being a half-formed
wad of
cells doesn't quite qualify. That's as far as logic will take you in either
direction, and therefore that's the appropriate place for the law to sit,
regardless of what "morals" might say.

I firmly disagree. The law has to reflect the values and morals
of the majority of society.

Or, to put a more conservative slant on it: the government has no business
regulating such things that are better left to the individual to manage for
themselves.

The government has the responsibility to protect the rights of
the people, particularly the rights of those who cannot defend
their own rights.

In the absence of any clear, legal or moral,
irrefutable definition of when a person becomes a person I fear
that is not happening.

A 7 month fetus is pretty much a human being and will even attempt to defend
itself from the surgical tools.

You are killing life when you perform an
abortion, no matter how you want to phrase it.