| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
25 Jan 2006 04:43:27 PM |
| Object: |
Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/features/prolife/frank_06.asp
The Ripple Effect of Abortion
by Fr. Frank Pavone
Abortion harms our entire culture in ways we have not even begun to
imagine. We may at times be tempted to think that we are not
individually affected by the fact that others legally abort their
children. But abortion does affect us all, personally and directly,
whether we are aware of it or not.
The pro-life movement has done much to teach the public about the
destructive harm that abortion does to the unborn child. Most people
also have been informed about the negative impact abortion has on
women's health, as a result of the multiple physical and emotional
complications of the procedure. But taking a brief look at the other
circles of destruction brought on by abortion can be an even more
sobering experience.
The Survivors
First of all, what does abortion do to the children who survive?
Psychologists have now discovered "Abortion Survivor Syndrome," a
cluster of symptoms that mimic those of the soldiers who return from
battle, and instead of feeling happy that they survived, feel guilty
and anxious. "Could I have done something to keep my army buddy from
getting killed? Why was it him and not me?"
Dr. Philip Ney, a Canadian expert and child psychiatrist, explains that
children eventually ask, "I was born because mommy wanted me. What if
she stops wanting me?"
The impact of being an abortion survivor should not be ignored as we
try to understand why children shoot other children in schools. We've
taught them to do so when we taught them that their lives were
disposable. Children will not stop killing children until parents stop
killing children.
The prospect that one could have been legally killed by his or her own
parents is also a significant obstacle for our young people to hear the
Gospel message of the Father's unconditional love for them.
From Generation to Generation
Abortion leads to more abortion, as well as to various forms of child
abuse. One of the biggest factors that will determine whether someone
will have an abortion is whether her mother had an abortion. The
reasons have to do with the way abortion affects the maternal bond. It
weakens and distorts it, and a woman who has an abortion faces
obstacles in her relationships with later children she brings to birth.
The act of aborting a child, rather than adjusting to the changes that
childbirth brings, constitutes a failure to mature and a regression in
one's development toward adult responsibility. This failure to mature
is one of the contributing causes of child abuse.
The Helpless Cry
Abortion threatens the survival of the human species itself, because it
introduces a distortion into the human response to the infant's
helpless cry. When a crying baby awakens her parents in the middle of
the night, initial annoyance quickly gives way to tenderness toward the
child in need. The very survival of the species depends on our overall
ability to make that transition. Abortion, by definition, is a
deliberate refusal to hear and respond to the helpless cry.
Dr. Ney writes, "Human response to the helpless cry of their young
will determine if the human species survives. The helpless cry is any
sound or signal that alerts a person that some creature is in distress
and cannot help him/herself . . . Anyone with any humanity in him or
herself must react in one way or another. The helpless cry is an
essential crisis . . . It is an accurate gauge of how human we are as
individuals and how civilized we are collectively. It will determine
whether we become more free, more mature, and more loving, or whether
we become insensitive, dehumanized, and hateful."
Marriage
Abortion destroys marriages and male-female relations generally. The
woman who has aborted a child finds it more difficult to trust the man.
Her relationship with him led to the unspeakable pain of abortion.
Meanwhile, the man finds in abortion an easy way to escape
responsibility for his actions. The fact that the law does not give
fathers a say in whether their own unborn children live or die means
that fathers are less willing to take responsibility for those children
before and after birth, and less willing to bond with them. If they are
not attached to the baby, moreover, they are not as supportive of their
partner.
Government
When our government allowed abortion, it became a different kind of
government than what it was founded to be. There are only two forms of
government. The first acknowledges that God gives us our rights, and
that government exists to secure those rights. In such a framework,
government can't tamper with the right to life, and can never
authorize its destruction.
The second form, however, says that government is the source of those
rights, and therefore has full dominion over life and death. The Pope
comments on this in Evangelium Vitae: "In this way democracy,
contradicting its own principles, effectively moves toward a form of
totalitarianism. The State is no longer the 'common home' where all
can live together on the basis of principles of fundamental equality,
but is transformed into a tyrant State, which arrogates to itself the
right to dispose of the life of the weakest and most defenseless
members. . . . When this happens, the process leading to the breakdown
of a genuinely human coexistence and the disintegration of the State
itself has already begun. . . . This is the death of true freedom"
(no. 20).
Abortion has wrought havoc on our political system, practically
destroying one of our national parties and hijacking the
constitutionally provided method for filling positions on federal
courts.
Other effects in law have been described as "the abortion
distortion." In various states, for example, pro-abortion forces have
begun to shut down avenues of free speech, such as specialty license
plate programs or tow banner advertising, just to prevent the truth of
abortion from being told.
The Church
The well-being of the Church is also at stake because of the abortion
controversy. The more the "ethic" of abortion is embedded in the
laws and practices of society, the more strained are the Church's
relations with government. The Church, after all, must interact with
government leaders on a wide range of programs that serve the people
and advance the Church's interests. But as was painfully evident in
recent controversies over whether pro-abortion politicians should be
allowed to receive Holy Communion or even appear on Church property,
the constant presence of legal abortion-and public officials who are
willing to keep it legal-will provide a source of continued conflict.
At the same time, positions on abortion are reduced, in public
commentary, to "political" positions. Given the fact that many
attorneys who advise the Church give unnecessarily restrictive legal
advice, the bottom line is that there is a chilling effect on the
freedom of the clergy-and others in ministry-to comment on
abortion. This strains the credibility of the Church, as people try to
figure out why more leadership is not evident from the pulpit on what
the bishops themselves have called the most fundamental civil rights
issue of our day.
The Medical Community
Legal abortion distorts the purpose and slows the progress of medicine.
Doctors are being reduced to their pre-Hippocratic oath days when they
were seen as dispensers of both life and death. The inherent link
between the medical profession and the care of life is being denied and
obscured. Moreover, if defects in a child are handled by aborting the
child, motivation to make medical progress in treating such defects is
deterred.
At the same time, if embryos can be destroyed, they can also be
manipulated, experimented on, sold, or combined with other species.
Bioethical oddities of immense proportions aThe fruit of abortion is
nuclear warre on the horizon.
Security
Ultimately, the economy and security of the nation and the world are
threatened by abortion. Destroying 40 million lives in a generation
can't happen without consequences, starting with the aging of the
population, with fewer younger workers supporting the system.
Moreover, how can we maintain peace between nations if we cannot
maintain peace between a mother and her own child? As Mother Teresa
warned, "If we say that a mother can kill her own child, how can we
tell other people not to kill each other? . . . The fruit of abortion
is nuclear war."
We have only skimmed the surface here and have truly not begun to
appreciate the destructive power of abortion. May we, as individuals
and as a society, face up to the truth about abortion and its many
dimensions before it is too late.
.
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| User: "Kashmir" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
27 Jan 2006 05:55:18 PM |
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On 25 Jan 2006 14:43:27 -0800, "words of truth" <truth760@lycos.com>
wrote:
http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/features/prolife/frank_06.asp
The Ripple Effect of Abortion
by Fr. Frank Pavone
Abortion harms our entire culture in ways we have not even begun to
imagine. We may at times be tempted to think that we are not
individually affected by the fact that others legally abort their
children. But abortion does affect us all, personally and directly,
whether we are aware of it or not.
The pro-life movement has done much to teach the public about the
destructive harm that abortion does to the unborn child. Most people
also have been informed about the negative impact abortion has on
women's health, as a result of the multiple physical and emotional
complications of the procedure. But taking a brief look at the other
circles of destruction brought on by abortion can be an even more
sobering experience.
The Survivors
First of all, what does abortion do to the children who survive?
Psychologists have now discovered "Abortion Survivor Syndrome," a
cluster of symptoms that mimic those of the soldiers who return from
battle, and instead of feeling happy that they survived, feel guilty
and anxious. "Could I have done something to keep my army buddy from
getting killed? Why was it him and not me?"
Dr. Philip Ney, a Canadian expert and child psychiatrist, explains that
children eventually ask, "I was born because mommy wanted me. What if
she stops wanting me?"
The impact of being an abortion survivor should not be ignored as we
try to understand why children shoot other children in schools. We've
taught them to do so when we taught them that their lives were
disposable. Children will not stop killing children until parents stop
killing children.
The prospect that one could have been legally killed by his or her own
parents is also a significant obstacle for our young people to hear the
Gospel message of the Father's unconditional love for them.
From Generation to Generation
Abortion leads to more abortion, as well as to various forms of child
abuse. One of the biggest factors that will determine whether someone
will have an abortion is whether her mother had an abortion. The
reasons have to do with the way abortion affects the maternal bond. It
weakens and distorts it, and a woman who has an abortion faces
obstacles in her relationships with later children she brings to birth.
The act of aborting a child, rather than adjusting to the changes that
childbirth brings, constitutes a failure to mature and a regression in
one's development toward adult responsibility. This failure to mature
is one of the contributing causes of child abuse.
The Helpless Cry
Abortion threatens the survival of the human species itself, because it
introduces a distortion into the human response to the infant's
helpless cry. When a crying baby awakens her parents in the middle of
the night, initial annoyance quickly gives way to tenderness toward the
child in need. The very survival of the species depends on our overall
ability to make that transition. Abortion, by definition, is a
deliberate refusal to hear and respond to the helpless cry.
Dr. Ney writes, "Human response to the helpless cry of their young
will determine if the human species survives. The helpless cry is any
sound or signal that alerts a person that some creature is in distress
and cannot help him/herself . . . Anyone with any humanity in him or
herself must react in one way or another. The helpless cry is an
essential crisis . . . It is an accurate gauge of how human we are as
individuals and how civilized we are collectively. It will determine
whether we become more free, more mature, and more loving, or whether
we become insensitive, dehumanized, and hateful."
Marriage
Abortion destroys marriages and male-female relations generally. The
woman who has aborted a child finds it more difficult to trust the man.
Her relationship with him led to the unspeakable pain of abortion.
Meanwhile, the man finds in abortion an easy way to escape
responsibility for his actions. The fact that the law does not give
fathers a say in whether their own unborn children live or die means
that fathers are less willing to take responsibility for those children
before and after birth, and less willing to bond with them. If they are
not attached to the baby, moreover, they are not as supportive of their
partner.
Government
When our government allowed abortion, it became a different kind of
government than what it was founded to be. There are only two forms of
government. The first acknowledges that God gives us our rights, and
that government exists to secure those rights. In such a framework,
government can't tamper with the right to life, and can never
authorize its destruction.
The second form, however, says that government is the source of those
rights, and therefore has full dominion over life and death. The Pope
comments on this in Evangelium Vitae: "In this way democracy,
contradicting its own principles, effectively moves toward a form of
totalitarianism. The State is no longer the 'common home' where all
can live together on the basis of principles of fundamental equality,
but is transformed into a tyrant State, which arrogates to itself the
right to dispose of the life of the weakest and most defenseless
members. . . . When this happens, the process leading to the breakdown
of a genuinely human coexistence and the disintegration of the State
itself has already begun. . . . This is the death of true freedom"
(no. 20).
Abortion has wrought havoc on our political system, practically
destroying one of our national parties and hijacking the
constitutionally provided method for filling positions on federal
courts.
Other effects in law have been described as "the abortion
distortion." In various states, for example, pro-abortion forces have
begun to shut down avenues of free speech, such as specialty license
plate programs or tow banner advertising, just to prevent the truth of
abortion from being told.
The Church
The well-being of the Church is also at stake because of the abortion
controversy. The more the "ethic" of abortion is embedded in the
laws and practices of society, the more strained are the Church's
relations with government. The Church, after all, must interact with
government leaders on a wide range of programs that serve the people
and advance the Church's interests. But as was painfully evident in
recent controversies over whether pro-abortion politicians should be
allowed to receive Holy Communion or even appear on Church property,
the constant presence of legal abortion-and public officials who are
willing to keep it legal-will provide a source of continued conflict.
At the same time, positions on abortion are reduced, in public
commentary, to "political" positions. Given the fact that many
attorneys who advise the Church give unnecessarily restrictive legal
advice, the bottom line is that there is a chilling effect on the
freedom of the clergy-and others in ministry-to comment on
abortion. This strains the credibility of the Church, as people try to
figure out why more leadership is not evident from the pulpit on what
the bishops themselves have called the most fundamental civil rights
issue of our day.
The Medical Community
Legal abortion distorts the purpose and slows the progress of medicine.
Doctors are being reduced to their pre-Hippocratic oath days when they
were seen as dispensers of both life and death. The inherent link
between the medical profession and the care of life is being denied and
obscured. Moreover, if defects in a child are handled by aborting the
child, motivation to make medical progress in treating such defects is
deterred.
At the same time, if embryos can be destroyed, they can also be
manipulated, experimented on, sold, or combined with other species.
Bioethical oddities of immense proportions aThe fruit of abortion is
nuclear warre on the horizon.
Security
Ultimately, the economy and security of the nation and the world are
threatened by abortion. Destroying 40 million lives in a generation
can't happen without consequences, starting with the aging of the
population, with fewer younger workers supporting the system.
Moreover, how can we maintain peace between nations if we cannot
maintain peace between a mother and her own child? As Mother Teresa
warned, "If we say that a mother can kill her own child, how can we
tell other people not to kill each other? . . . The fruit of abortion
is nuclear war."
We have only skimmed the surface here and have truly not begun to
appreciate the destructive power of abortion. May we, as individuals
and as a society, face up to the truth about abortion and its many
dimensions before it is too late.
Oh please. take your fucking crucifix and go away, will you?
Abortion leads to nuclear war?
What a fucking moron.
--
Kashmir
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
26 Jan 2006 06:53:48 PM |
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On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:43:27 -0800, words of truth wrote:
http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/features/prolife/frank_06.asp
The Ripple Effect of Abortion
by Fr. Frank Pavone
The Fruit of Outlawing Abortion is a country full of poor, starving people.
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
29 Jan 2006 11:47:50 PM |
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MarkA wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:43:27 -0800, words of truth wrote:
http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/features/prolife/frank_06.asp
The Ripple Effect of Abortion
by Fr. Frank Pavone
The Fruit of Outlawing Abortion is a country full of poor, starving people.
You are a moron.
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
29 Jan 2006 11:48:03 PM |
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MarkA wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:43:27 -0800, words of truth wrote:
http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/features/prolife/frank_06.asp
The Ripple Effect of Abortion
by Fr. Frank Pavone
The Fruit of Outlawing Abortion is a country full of poor, starving people.
You are a moron.
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
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| User: "Air Raid" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
26 Jan 2006 04:03:16 PM |
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while I don't know of all the effects of abortion - I would tend to
agree overall.
abortion is evil and it is only leading to more evil and destruction.
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| User: "The Chief Instigator" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
26 Jan 2006 09:13:46 PM |
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"Air Raid" <AirRaidJet@gmail.com> writes:
while I don't know of all the effects of abortion - I would tend to
agree overall.
abortion is evil and it is only leading to more evil and destruction.
It's only been around as long as written history, at a minimum.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2005-06 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Peoria 3, Houston 0 (January 24)
NEXT GAME: Thursday, January 26 at Iowa, 7:05
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
28 Jan 2006 01:27:56 AM |
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The Chief Instigator wrote:
"Air Raid" <AirRaidJet@gmail.com> writes:
while I don't know of all the effects of abortion - I would tend to
agree overall.
abortion is evil and it is only leading to more evil and destruction.
It's only been around as long as written history, at a minimum.
So has murder and rape. For those who believe in a Creator, life
begins at conception, *that's* why it has been illegal for 6000
years.
It is the same reason that suicide is illegal and if the person
survived was
charged with "attempted self murder".
BTW In the U.S. if a pregnagt woman is murdered, the killer is
charged
with 2 murders, not one.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
28 Jan 2006 11:50:14 AM |
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<> wrote:
The Chief Instigator wrote:
"Air Raid" <AirRaidJet@gmail.com> writes:
while I don't know of all the effects of abortion - I would tend to
agree overall.
abortion is evil and it is only leading to more evil and destruction.
It's only been around as long as written history, at a minimum.
So has murder and rape. For those who believe in a Creator, life
begins at conception,
Says who?
*that's* why it has been illegal for 6000
years.
Except that abortion has mostly been legal. The BIble even describes
forced abortion as a punishment for infidelity.
It is the same reason that suicide is illegal
LOL! You really are a font of misinformation. It's what happens when
people get to be too stupid to realize how stupid they are.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
26 Jan 2006 06:59:20 PM |
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Air Raid <AirRaidJet@gmail.com> wrote:
while I don't know of all the effects of abortion - I would tend to
agree overall.
abortion is evil and it is only leading to more evil and destruction.
You're admit that you're ignorant but you choose to believe in the
hate and lie rather than find out the truth.
What an *****.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Pro-Liars: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
25 Jan 2006 06:35:34 PM |
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words of truth <truth760@lycos.com> wrote:
The Ripple Effect of Abortion
by Fr. Frank Pavone
Slippery slope stupidity.
Abortion harms our entire culture in ways we have not even begun to
imagine.
As opposed to enslaving women and forcing them to suffer and die for
the crime of sex.
[...]
The pro-life movement has done much to teach the public about the
destructive harm that abortion does to the unborn child.
By lying outright, bombing clnics, assassinating doctors, and
committing acts of terrorism.
Most people
also have been informed about the negative impact abortion has on
women's health,
Childbirth is ten times as likely to kill a woman as is an abortion.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
27 Jan 2006 12:21:24 PM |
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words of truth wrote:
http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/features/prolife/frank_06.asp
The Ripple Effect of Abortion
by Fr. Frank Pavone
The pro-life movement has done much to teach the public about the
destructive harm that abortion does to the unborn child.
Yes they uncovered this deep dark secret,
they are more clever than we thought.
Most people
also have been informed about the negative impact abortion has on
women's health, as a result of the multiple physical and emotional
complications of the procedure.
Abortion is still much safer than continuing with a pregnancy.
But taking a brief look at the other circles of destruction
brought on by abortion can be an even more sobering experience.
Why do you need sobering, what have you been drinking?
snipage
The prospect that one could have been legally killed by his or her own
parents is also a significant obstacle for our young people to hear the
Gospel message of the Father's unconditional love for them.
Another great reason to keep abortion legal!
Larry
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
27 Jan 2006 06:55:07 PM |
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<lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote
Most people
also have been informed about the negative impact abortion has on
women's health, as a result of the multiple physical and emotional
complications of the procedure.
Abortion is still much safer than continuing with a pregnancy.
That's where statisitics can mislead.
You are comparing the tiny number of full-term pregancies that cause major
medical problems with the tiny number of legal, modern abortions that do so.
So a small number of women with problem preganacies could improve the
mother's medical prospects by having abortions. That doesn't mean that the
vast majority of women won't damage their personal propsects. However the
damage - cancer, problems with subsequent pregancies,divorce - tends to be
delayed, and tends to be difficult to attribute unambigously to the
abortion.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
27 Jan 2006 08:01:21 PM |
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Malcolm <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote:
<lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote
Most people
also have been informed about the negative impact abortion has on
women's health, as a result of the multiple physical and emotional
complications of the procedure.
Abortion is still much safer than continuing with a pregnancy.
That's where statisitics can mislead.
You are comparing the tiny number of full-term pregancies that cause major
medical problems with the tiny number of legal, modern abortions that do so.
Every year in the US about 350 women die from pregnancy and childbirth
and about 5 die from abortion. Pretty much all full-term births cause
medical problems.
So a small number of women with problem preganacies could improve the
mother's medical prospects by having abortions. That doesn't mean that the
vast majority of women won't damage their personal propsects.
As it happens, though, abortion is much safer than childbirth, by
pretty much any measure you care to cite.
However the
damage - cancer, problems with subsequent pregancies,divorce - tends to be
delayed,
Or non-existant.
and tends to be difficult to attribute unambigously to the
abortion.
The studies have been done. Abortion is safer.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
29 Jan 2006 03:20:09 AM |
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"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote
You are comparing the tiny number of full-term pregancies that cause major
^^^^^
medical problems with the tiny number of legal, modern abortions that do
so.
Every year in the US about 350 women die from pregnancy and childbirth
and about 5 die from abortion. Pretty much all full-term births cause
medical problems.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
350 deaths a year in a population the size of the USA is a very small
number, testimony to the quality of your medical system.
So a small number of women with problem preganacies could improve the
mother's medical prospects by having abortions. That doesn't mean that the
vast majority of women won't damage their personal propsects.
As it happens, though, abortion is much safer than childbirth, by
pretty much any measure you care to cite.
If those 350 were all identifed, and told to opt for abortion instead, then
there would be about 15 deaths from abortion, as 1 in 3 pregnancies is
aborted, and none from childbirth.
That's why this type of statisitic doesn't really tell you very much.
However the
damage - cancer, problems with subsequent pregancies,divorce - tends to be
delayed,
Or non-existant.
and tends to be difficult to attribute unambigously to the
abortion.
The studies have been done. Abortion is safer.
Abortion isn't grotesquely dangerous, from a narrow medical perspective. You
seem to have a lot of faith in "studies". Epidemiology isn't the science you
think it is.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
29 Jan 2006 06:50:00 AM |
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Malcolm <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote
You are comparing the tiny number of full-term pregancies that cause major
^^^^^
medical problems with the tiny number of legal, modern abortions that do
so.
Every year in the US about 350 women die from pregnancy and childbirth
and about 5 die from abortion. Pretty much all full-term births cause
medical problems.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
350 deaths a year in a population the size of the USA is a very small
number, testimony to the quality of your medical system.
You can kill just one woman and go to prison for murder.
So a small number of women with problem preganacies could improve the
mother's medical prospects by having abortions. That doesn't mean that the
vast majority of women won't damage their personal propsects.
As it happens, though, abortion is much safer than childbirth, by
pretty much any measure you care to cite.
If those 350 were all identifed, and told to opt for abortion instead, then
there would be about 15 deaths from abortion, as 1 in 3 pregnancies is
aborted, and none from childbirth.
That's the usual pro-liar idiocy that we see too often. But your
thinking every ejaculaiton results in millions of deaths.
But honest, sane people don't pretend that the death of an uncaring
unfeeling embryo is quite the same as the agonizing death of a woman.
However the
damage - cancer, problems with subsequent pregancies,divorce - tends to be
delayed,
Or non-existant.
and tends to be difficult to attribute unambigously to the
abortion.
The studies have been done. Abortion is safer.
Abortion isn't grotesquely dangerous,
It isn't dangerous at all.
from a narrow medical perspective. You
seem to have a lot of faith in "studies".
More than in the prejudices and ignorance of anti-abortion zealots
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
01 Feb 2006 05:58:42 PM |
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Ray Fischer wrote:
Malcolm <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote:
<lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote
Most people
also have been informed about the negative impact abortion has on
women's health, as a result of the multiple physical and emotional
complications of the procedure.
Abortion is still much safer than continuing with a pregnancy.
That's where statisitics can mislead.
You are comparing the tiny number of full-term pregancies that cause major
medical problems with the tiny number of legal, modern abortions that do so.
Every year in the US about 350 women die from pregnancy and childbirth
and about 5 die from abortion. Pretty much all full-term births cause
medical problems.
It obviousy happened during *your* delivery. Judging from your
drivel on the
subject, it would appear that the doctor slapped the wrong end.
If pregancy and full term delivery caused problems we would all be
cretins
like you.
So a small number of women with problem preganacies could improve the
mother's medical prospects by having abortions. That doesn't mean that the
vast majority of women won't damage their personal propsects.
As it happens, though, abortion is much safer than childbirth, by
pretty much any measure you care to cite.
Especially for the moron who impregnated the woman.
However the
damage - cancer, problems with subsequent pregancies,divorce - tends to be
delayed,
Or non-existant.
and tends to be difficult to attribute unambigously to the
abortion.
The studies have been done. Abortion is safer.
Not for the baby. Get some mental help before the men in white
cart you
back to the funny farm.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
02 Feb 2006 11:22:14 AM |
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<Boedicia@isp.com> wrote:
If pregancy and full term delivery caused problems we would all be
cretins
like you.
How many children did you say you'd given birth to?
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
02 Feb 2006 03:02:38 AM |
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On 1 Feb 2006 15:58:42 -0800, wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Malcolm <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote:
<lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote
Most people
also have been informed about the negative impact abortion has on
women's health, as a result of the multiple physical and emotional
complications of the procedure.
Abortion is still much safer than continuing with a pregnancy.
That's where statisitics can mislead.
You are comparing the tiny number of full-term pregancies that cause major
medical problems with the tiny number of legal, modern abortions that do so.
Every year in the US about 350 women die from pregnancy and childbirth
and about 5 die from abortion. Pretty much all full-term births cause
medical problems.
It obviousy happened during *your* delivery. Judging from your
drivel on the
subject, it would appear that the doctor slapped the wrong end.
If pregancy and full term delivery caused problems we would all be
cretins
like you
I don't understand the personal reaction to completely impersonal
information. Pregnancy can cause medical problems. Most births are
without serious incident, but there are a few hundred deaths in the US
every year as a result of pregnancy. Do you have some reason to
doubt that?
snip
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
01 Feb 2006 05:45:40 PM |
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wrote:
words of truth wrote:
http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/features/prolife/frank_06.asp
The Ripple Effect of Abortion
by Fr. Frank Pavone
The pro-life movement has done much to teach the public about the
destructive harm that abortion does to the unborn child.
Yes they uncovered this deep dark secret,
they are more clever than we thought.
Most people
also have been informed about the negative impact abortion has on
women's health, as a result of the multiple physical and emotional
complications of the procedure.
Abortion is still much safer than continuing with a pregnancy.
You talk as though pregnancy was an illness instead of a natural
experience.
Where do you think that *you* came from.
But taking a brief look at the other circles of destruction
brought on by abortion can be an even more sobering experience.
Why do you need sobering, what have you been drinking?
You are an idiot.
snipage
The prospect that one could have been legally killed by his or her own
parents is also a significant obstacle for our young people to hear the
Gospel message of the Father's unconditional love for them.
Another great reason to keep abortion legal!
I repeat, you are an idiot. It's unfortunate that *your* mother
didn't abort you, one
less moron wouldn't be noticed among all the idiots who think that
removing an
innocent child from its mothers womb before its time is normal and
should be encouraged.
Larry
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
01 Feb 2006 08:37:10 PM |
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<Boedicia@isp.com> wrote:
lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
Abortion is still much safer than continuing with a pregnancy.
You talk as though pregnancy was an illness instead of a natural
experience.
Dying is a "natural experience".
Does that justify killing you?
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Spartakus" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
02 Feb 2006 08:52:01 AM |
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<Boedicia@isp.com> wrote...
lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
Abortion is still much safer than continuing with a pregnancy.
You talk as though pregnancy was an illness instead of a natural
experience. Where do you think that *you* came from.
There's an old saying among obstetricians: "Pregnancy is normal for the
species, but pathological for the individual". Pregnancy is, in fact,
classified as an illness, since it is a condition that imposes serious
health risks on women. For example, 22% of all pregnant women are
hospitalized at some point during their pregnancies, and approximately 300
women die from complications of pregnancy or childbirth every year in the
U.S.
I like the handwaving about "natural experience". Dying is a natural (and
universal) experience, too, you know.
But taking a brief look at the other circles of destruction
brought on by abortion can be an even more sobering experience.
Why do you need sobering, what have you been drinking?
You are an idiot.
Nah, just a smart *****.
The prospect that one could have been legally killed by his or her own
parents is also a significant obstacle for our young people to hear
the
Gospel message of the Father's unconditional love for them.
Another great reason to keep abortion legal!
I repeat, you are an idiot. It's unfortunate that *your* mother
didn't abort you,
How "pro-life" of you...
one less moron wouldn't be noticed among all the idiots who think that
removing an innocent child from its mothers womb before its time is
normal
and should be encouraged.
And people wonder why I say there is no such thing as a "pro-lifer".
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| User: "chris.holt" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
02 Feb 2006 01:09:14 PM |
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Spartakus wrote:
<Boedicia@isp.com> wrote...
one less moron wouldn't be noticed among all the idiots who think that
removing an innocent child from its mothers womb before its time is
normal
and should be encouraged.
And people wonder why I say there is no such thing as a "pro-lifer".
Well, be fair; there might be someone, somewhere, who is
consistent. But let's try to find more accurate
terminology; people who are against abortion should
be called
pro-potential-human-beings.
It's a bit longer, but far more accurate; many of these
people don't worry about warfare, or whether you should
feed rats to carnivores, or the like. Or even if you
should kill a tapeworm.
A pphb is simply squeamish, in the way that some animal
rights people are squeamish about fuzzy little critters
dying. They'll justify it in terms of high-sounding
moral principles (which they can't justify) while ignoring
the misery they would inflict on actual human beings,
which is easy if you're not one of the sufferers.
--
chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
02 Feb 2006 02:06:29 PM |
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chris holt writes:
chris> Spartakus wrote:
<Boedicia@isp.com> wrote...
one less moron wouldn't be noticed among all the idiots who think that
removing an innocent child from its mothers womb before its time is
normal
and should be encouraged.
And people wonder why I say there is no such thing as a "pro-lifer".
chris> Well, be fair; there might be someone, somewhere, who is
chris> consistent. But let's try to find more accurate
chris> terminology; people who are against abortion should
chris> be called
chris> pro-potential-human-beings.
That is even longer than my:
pro-fetal-rights
but thankfully shorter than my:
pro-early-term-abortion-rights
chris> It's a bit longer, but far more accurate; many of these
chris> people don't worry about warfare, or whether you should
chris> feed rats to carnivores, or the like. Or even if you
chris> should kill a tapeworm.
chris> A pphb is simply squeamish, in the way that some animal
chris> rights people are squeamish about fuzzy little critters
chris> dying. They'll justify it in terms of high-sounding
chris> moral principles (which they can't justify) while ignoring
chris> the misery they would inflict on actual human beings,
chris> which is easy if you're not one of the sufferers.
This is a bit harsh. Many pphb folks actually believe that
a fertilized egg is a human being. I think that underneath
the covers this is a religious belief, something about a soul,
but I do respect that belief, and understand their opposition
to abortion at any stage. On the other hand, I find few of them
that give any credibility to my belief that rights come with
the ability to think.
--
Andrew Hall
(Now reading Usenet in alt.fan.dan-quayle...)
=======================================================================
Those same asteroids which promise material riches can be a threat as well.
-- Vice President Dan Quayle, 5/1/90
(reported in Esquire, 8/92)
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| User: "chris.holt" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
02 Feb 2006 03:01:30 PM |
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wrote:
chris holt writes:
chris> Well, be fair; there might be someone, somewhere, who is
chris> consistent. But let's try to find more accurate
chris> terminology; people who are against abortion should
chris> be called
chris> pro-potential-human-beings.
That is even longer than my:
pro-fetal-rights
but thankfully shorter than my:
pro-early-term-abortion-rights
Yeah, we can make up names for hours. Preferably over
a pint or two. :-) But I think focussing on rights
glosses over the basic attitude, it's going along with
the moral focus that excludes both women (the misogyny
of the "she had it coming to her" attitude) and the
potential child's quality of life ("so I couldn't
handle him and he turned into a drug dealer, and
now he gets executed").
It's an attitude that works fine if you're going for
a degree (learn more and more about less and less),
but it doesn't work well when dealing with broader
issues, like how everyone interacts with everyone
else. Unless you're a multi-disciplinary generalist,
but everyone complains there aren't enough of them
about while refusing to pay them anything worthwhile.
chris> It's a bit longer, but far more accurate; many of these
chris> people don't worry about warfare, or whether you should
chris> feed rats to carnivores, or the like. Or even if you
chris> should kill a tapeworm.
chris> A pphb is simply squeamish, in the way that some animal
chris> rights people are squeamish about fuzzy little critters
chris> dying. They'll justify it in terms of high-sounding
chris> moral principles (which they can't justify) while ignoring
chris> the misery they would inflict on actual human beings,
chris> which is easy if you're not one of the sufferers.
This is a bit harsh. Many pphb folks actually believe that
a fertilized egg is a human being.
It may be harsh, but given the inconsistencies I've seen
in people's views over the decades I don't think it's
mistaken (at least for most people). When you say they
believe a fertilized egg is a human being, there's no
real knowledge there; it's a definitional thing, because
they define a human being as starting from a fertilized
egg. It's language manipulation.
A good test is to ask how they feel about miscarriages.
They'll generally "tsk tsk, what a shame", but you can
tell very well that they're not emotionally engaged;
they won't cry the same way they would if a four-year-old
got drowned in a swimming pool.
I think that underneath
the covers this is a religious belief, something about a soul,
but I do respect that belief, and understand their opposition
to abortion at any stage.
I'd call it more a pseudo-religious belief, by and large.
They've been taught a particular language game together
with an emotional game (you should feel glad about this;
you should feel sad about that). But they're just going
through the motions, they don't attach it to real life
as they live it.
Of course there are exceptions, but by now the best
analogy I can find is like playing a video game; you
make some moves and you 'care' if you get a good
score, but it's a shadow in Plato's cave. It's not
real.
On the other hand, I find few of them
that give any credibility to my belief that rights come with
the ability to think.
I'm not sure that I believe that rights come with the
ability to think; it depends so much on what you mean
by rights and thought. I'd have gone more along the
lines that rights come with certain kinds of social
structures, together with the ability to suffer. But
to each their own.
--
chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
02 Feb 2006 03:57:48 PM |
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chris holt writes:
chris> It's a bit longer, but far more accurate; many of these
chris> people don't worry about warfare, or whether you should
chris> feed rats to carnivores, or the like. Or even if you
chris> should kill a tapeworm.
chris> A pphb is simply squeamish, in the way that some animal
chris> rights people are squeamish about fuzzy little critters
chris> dying. They'll justify it in terms of high-sounding
chris> moral principles (which they can't justify) while ignoring
chris> the misery they would inflict on actual human beings,
chris> which is easy if you're not one of the sufferers.
This is a bit harsh. Many pphb folks actually believe that
a fertilized egg is a human being.
chris> It may be harsh, but given the inconsistencies I've seen
chris> in people's views over the decades I don't think it's
chris> mistaken (at least for most people). When you say they
chris> believe a fertilized egg is a human being, there's no
chris> real knowledge there; it's a definitional thing, because
chris> they define a human being as starting from a fertilized
chris> egg. It's language manipulation.
It seems that way to me, but I really believe that
some thing something magical happens --- such as a
soul entering the egg with the sperm's DNA.
chris> A good test is to ask how they feel about miscarriages.
chris> They'll generally "tsk tsk, what a shame", but you can
chris> tell very well that they're not emotionally engaged;
Perhaps, but murder and accidental death are quite different.
I feel equally sad at both deaths, but the murder makes me a lot
more angry.
chris> they won't cry the same way they would if a four-year-old
chris> got drowned in a swimming pool.
I think that underneath
the covers this is a religious belief, something about a soul,
but I do respect that belief, and understand their opposition
to abortion at any stage.
chris> I'd call it more a pseudo-religious belief, by and large.
chris> They've been taught a particular language game together
chris> with an emotional game (you should feel glad about this;
chris> you should feel sad about that). But they're just going
chris> through the motions, they don't attach it to real life
chris> as they live it.
chris> Of course there are exceptions, but by now the best
chris> analogy I can find is like playing a video game; you
chris> make some moves and you 'care' if you get a good
chris> score, but it's a shadow in Plato's cave. It's not
chris> real.
On the other hand, I find few of them
that give any credibility to my belief that rights come with
the ability to think.
chris> I'm not sure that I believe that rights come with the
chris> ability to think; it depends so much on what you mean
chris> by rights and thought. I'd have gone more along the
chris> lines that rights come with certain kinds of social
chris> structures, together with the ability to suffer. But
chris> to each their own.
I am closer to absolutist than you on rights.
--
Andrew Hall
(Now reading Usenet in alt.fan.dan-quayle...)
=======================================================================
A bunch of girly-men.
-- Bush supporter Arnold Schwarzenegger, on the
Democratic presidential candidates, one of whom had
won the Medal of Honor.
(I'm not a hero, but I play one on TV.)
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| User: "chris.holt" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
02 Feb 2006 04:15:57 PM |
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wrote:
chris holt writes:
This is a bit harsh. Many pphb folks actually believe that
a fertilized egg is a human being.
chris> It may be harsh, but given the inconsistencies I've seen
chris> in people's views over the decades I don't think it's
chris> mistaken (at least for most people). When you say they
chris> believe a fertilized egg is a human being, there's no
chris> real knowledge there; it's a definitional thing, because
chris> they define a human being as starting from a fertilized
chris> egg. It's language manipulation.
It seems that way to me, but I really believe that
some thing something magical happens --- such as a
soul entering the egg with the sperm's DNA.
They have a lot of trouble dealing with twins.
chris> A good test is to ask how they feel about miscarriages.
chris> They'll generally "tsk tsk, what a shame", but you can
chris> tell very well that they're not emotionally engaged;
Perhaps, but murder and accidental death are quite different.
I feel equally sad at both deaths, but the murder makes me a lot
more angry.
I understand that difference; but my example didn't involve
murder, unless you choose to take it that way. I was
thinking of accidental drowning. But let's go ahead;
what about deliberate miscarriages that are plausibly
denied?
On the other hand, I find few of them
that give any credibility to my belief that rights come with
the ability to think.
chris> I'm not sure that I believe that rights come with the
chris> ability to think; it depends so much on what you mean
chris> by rights and thought. I'd have gone more along the
chris> lines that rights come with certain kinds of social
chris> structures, together with the ability to suffer. But
chris> to each their own.
I am closer to absolutist than you on rights.
Yeah, I know. I'm sure we'll argue about this again
sometime. :-) But just to be provocative, how do
you feel about intelligent robots? I don't go for
Searle's Chinese room approach myself, but I can
see the attractions.
--
chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
02 Feb 2006 04:28:46 PM |
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chris holt writes:
chris> wrote:
chris holt writes:
This is a bit harsh. Many pphb folks actually believe that
a fertilized egg is a human being.
chris> It may be harsh, but given the inconsistencies I've seen
chris> in people's views over the decades I don't think it's
chris> mistaken (at least for most people). When you say they
chris> believe a fertilized egg is a human being, there's no
chris> real knowledge there; it's a definitional thing, because
chris> they define a human being as starting from a fertilized
chris> egg. It's language manipulation.
It seems that way to me, but I really believe that
some thing something magical happens --- such as a
soul entering the egg with the sperm's DNA.
chris> They have a lot of trouble dealing with twins.
chris> A good test is to ask how they feel about miscarriages.
chris> They'll generally "tsk tsk, what a shame", but you can
chris> tell very well that they're not emotionally engaged;
Perhaps, but murder and accidental death are quite different.
I feel equally sad at both deaths, but the murder makes me a lot
more angry.
chris> I understand that difference; but my example didn't involve
chris> murder, unless you choose to take it that way. I was
I was trying to speak from the viewpoint of those that think
abortion is murder.
As you know I do not think that is true.
chris> thinking of accidental drowning. But let's go ahead;
chris> what about deliberate miscarriages that are plausibly
chris> denied?
I would think that the honest folks that thought abortion was
murder would think the same. I have known more than a few that
opposed the pill as it often works to prevent implantation, not
prevent fertilization.
On the other hand, I find few of them
that give any credibility to my belief that rights come with
the ability to think.
chris> I'm not sure that I believe that rights come with the
chris> ability to think; it depends so much on what you mean
chris> by rights and thought. I'd have gone more along the
chris> lines that rights come with certain kinds of social
chris> structures, together with the ability to suffer. But
chris> to each their own.
I am closer to absolutist than you on rights.
chris> Yeah, I know. I'm sure we'll argue about this again
chris> sometime. :-) But just to be provocative, how do
chris> you feel about intelligent robots? I don't go for
Any thinking entity should have the rights we call human
rights. I have used AI as an (currently hypothetical)
example.
chris> Searle's Chinese room approach myself, but I can
chris> see the attractions.
I do not know the reference.
--
Andrew Hall
(Now reading Usenet in alt.fan.dan-quayle...)
=======================================================================
Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things.
-- Ex Vice President Dan Quayle, 11/30/88
(reported in Esquire, 8/92)
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| User: "chris.holt" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
03 Feb 2006 04:52:41 AM |
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wrote:
chris holt writes:
chris> A good test is to ask how they feel about miscarriages.
chris> They'll generally "tsk tsk, what a shame", but you can
chris> tell very well that they're not emotionally engaged;
Perhaps, but murder and accidental death are quite different.
I feel equally sad at both deaths, but the murder makes me a lot
more angry.
chris> I understand that difference; but my example didn't involve
chris> murder, unless you choose to take it that way. I was
I was trying to speak from the viewpoint of those that think
abortion is murder.
As you know I do not think that is true.
Sure. But we want to compare murder with murder (a fertilized
egg vs. a 4-year-old), and accident with accident (a miscarriage
vs. a 4-year-old). My suggestion was that when you compare
accident with accident, you see a big emotional difference.
To me, this suggests that the murder with murder comparison
is contrived. Not for all, to be sure; but for many.
chris> thinking of accidental drowning. But let's go ahead;
chris> what about deliberate miscarriages that are plausibly
chris> denied?
I would think that the honest folks that thought abortion was
murder would think the same. I have known more than a few that
opposed the pill as it often works to prevent implantation, not
prevent fertilization.
From what I remember, the polls there (though never
unanimous) are strongly divided along sexual lines.
It's generally one of those "I should be able to tell
you what to do, but you shouldn't be able to tell me
what to do" kinds of things.
....
chris> Searle's Chinese room approach myself, but I can
chris> see the attractions.
I do not know the reference.
<bring up google, type searle chinese room>
http://www.iep.utm.edu/c/chineser.htm
-----
The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
The Chinese Room Argument
The Chinese room argument - John Searle's (1980a) thought experiment
and associated (1984) derivation - is one of the best known and widely
credited counters to claims of artificial intelligence (AI), i.e., to
claims that computers do or at least can (someday might) think.
According to Searle's original presentation, the argument is based
on two truths: brains cause minds, and syntax doesn't suffice for
semantics. Its target, Searle dubs "strong AI": "according to strong
AI," according to Searle, "the computer is not merely a tool in the
study of the mind, rather the appropriately programmed computer
really is a mind in the sense that computers given the right
programs can be literally said to understand and have other
cognitive states" (1980a, p. 417). Searle contrasts "strong AI"
to "weak AI". According to weak AI, according to Searle, computers
just simulate thought, their seeming understanding isn't real
(just as-if) understanding, their seeming calculation as-if
calculation, etc.; nevertheless, computer simulation is useful
for studying the mind (as for studying the weather and other things).
-----
There's lots more there about it.
--
chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
04 Feb 2006 05:22:32 AM |
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"chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote
Sure. But we want to compare murder with murder (a fertilized
egg vs. a 4-year-old), and accident with accident (a miscarriage
vs. a 4-year-old). My suggestion was that when you compare
accident with accident, you see a big emotional difference.
To me, this suggests that the murder with murder comparison
is contrived. Not for all, to be sure; but for many.
Murders are different.
For instance, Rachel McLean, a student at Oxford, disappeared, and it later
transpired that she had been murdered by her boyfriend. There was a media
frenzy.
A girl of the same age with Downs syndrome disappeared on the same day, and
the police family couldn't get enough publicity to attract potential
witnesses, until the comparision was pointed out.
In the eyes of British law, currently, both murders would be the same
offence and attract the same sentence. There are now moves to change that
situation. All humans may be of the same value to God, but not to their
fellow men.
.
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| User: "ۥR.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Mother Theresa: The Fruit Of Abortion Is Nuclear War |
04 Feb 2006 10:29:47 AM |
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In article <ds22pn$a6d$4@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, "Malcolm"
<regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote:
"chris.holt" <chris.holt@ncl.ac.uk> wrote
Sure. But we want to compare murder with murder (a fertilized
egg vs. a 4-year-old), and accident with accident (a miscarriage
vs. a 4-year-old). My suggestion was that when you compare
accident with accident, you see a big emotional difference.
To me, this suggests that the murder with murder comparison
is contrived. Not for all, to be sure; but for many.
Murders are different.
• not to the anti-choice crowd.
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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