Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit

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Topic:	Science > Abortion
User:	"J Young"
Date:	23 Oct 2006 11:44:12 PM
Object:	Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue. Does the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?
http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061011/COUNTY10/610110390/1006/NEWS
Mt. Juliet official wants religion to be part of school
The date is marked on Peggy Clark's calendar: 6 p.m. Oct. 24, Lakeview
Elementary School in Mt. Juliet.
That's when and where Clark plans to participate in a prayer rally organized
by a Mt. Juliet city commissioner in support of the school in a legal battle
over separation of church and state.
"I understand there's a separation of church and state, but schools are a
different thing; somebody needs to teach those kids," said Clark, 67, who
said her education in public schools started with a prayer.
"A lot of people I know object to it, but if your school had more of what I
was raised with, we wouldn't have all this mess that we have now. We
wouldn't have guns in schools."
The prayer rally is organized by Mt. Juliet Commissioner Glen Linthicum, who
said it was time for the community to take a stand against what he called a
"frivolous" lawsuit recently filed by the Tennessee chapter of the American
Civil Liberties Union against the Wilson County school district.
The suit, filed on behalf of a local family, alleges that religious
activities endorsed by Lakeview Elementary resulted in constitutional
violations.
"What I hope to accomplish is to send a clear message to ACLU and the rest
of Tennessee that Mt. Juliet stands for traditional values in America and
that ACLU needs to ply their trade elsewhere," Linthicum said.
"This is an important fundamental question that faces America today, the
attack on traditional values in America. Are we going to allow our heritage
to be suppressed by a progressive minority?"
--
--
----------
J Yöung
youngopinions@aol.com
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 12:18:00 AM

"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com...

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue. Does the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?
http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061011/COUNTY10/610110390/1006/NEWS

"I understand there's a separation of church and state, but schools are a
different thing; somebody needs to teach those kids," said Clark, 67,

What, these kids don't have parents?
*****, theists are stupid.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
.

User: "Brian Westley"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 09:20:58 AM

"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> writes:

"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com...

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue. Does the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?
http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061011/COUNTY10/610110390/1006/NEWS

"I understand there's a separation of church and state, but schools are a
different thing; somebody needs to teach those kids," said Clark, 67,

What, these kids don't have parents?
*****, theists are stupid.

Read some of the reader comments at the URL... some incredible
idiots, and a few who have a grasp of the first amendment
vainly trying to explain to the idiots why public schools
shouldn't be pushing religion (and legally can't).
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	25 Oct 2006 02:48:46 PM

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue. Does the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?

Sure does. They think it's a jolly decent idea that each person's
religion be their own concern, and not the affair of other
people. For example:
The ACLU of New Jersey (2005) filed a a motion to submit a
friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of Olivia Turton, a second-grade
student who was forbidden from singing 'Awesome God' in a voluntary,
after-school talent show. The only restriction on the student's
selection for the talent show was that it be 'G-rated.' The case, filed
in federal court, is Turton, et al. v. Frenchtown Elementary School , et al.
The ACLU of Oregon (2004-05) filed suit on behalf of high school
basketball players from an Adventist school against the Oregon School
Activities Association, which administers competitive athletic and
artistic competitions in Oregon high schools. The ACLU argued that the
Adventist basketball players who have made it to the state tournament
should not be required to play tournament games on Saturday, their
Sabbath. The case, argued in Oregon courts, is Nakashima v. Board Of
Education.
The ACLU of Eastern Missouri (1999) secured a favorable settlement for a
nurse, Miki M. Cain, who was fired for wearing a cross-shaped lapel pin
on her uniform.
The ACLU of Nevada (2004) represented a Mormon high school student, Kim
Jacobs, who school authorities suspended and then attempted to expel for
not complying with the school dress code and wearing T-shirts with
religious messages. Jacobs won a preliminary victory in court where the
judge ruled the school could not expel her for not complying with the
dress code. The First Amendment issue of student expression is before
the Ninth Circuit.
The ACLU of Massachusetts (2003) intervened on behalf of a group of
students at Westfield High School who were suspended for distributing
candy canes and a religious message in school. The ACLU succeeded in
having the suspensions revoked and filed an amicus brief in a lawsuit
brought on behalf of the students against the school district. Students
who were suspended include Daniel S. Souza, Stephen J. Grabowski, Sharon
L. Sitler and Paul Sitler.
The ACLU of Michigan (1999) obtained a favorable settlement on behalf
of Crystal Seifferly with Lincoln Park High School . As part of the
settlement, the school changed its policy prohibiting the wearing of
pentagrams, a symbol of the Wicca religion, of which Seifferly is an
adherent. The school deleted the policy's provision that stated that
pagans and witches are inappropriate in a school setting.
Rhode Island ACLU (2006) filed an appeal in federal court on behalf of
an inmate who was barred from preaching during Christian religious
services, something he had done for the past seven years under the
supervision and support of prison clergy. The prisoner, Wesley Spratt,
believes his preaching is a calling from God. Prison officials cited
vague and unsubstantiated security reasons for imposing the preaching
ban on Mr. Spratt. The ACLU argued that the ban violates Mr. Spratt's
religious freedoms guaranteed to prisoners under federal law.
The ACLU of Oklahoma (2000) filed a federal lawsuit against Union Public
School District No. 9 on behalf of 15-year-old Brandi Blackbear, a
Wiccan who was accused by school officials of making a teacher sick by
casting a hex. School authorities suspended Brandi, an honor student,
for 15 days for allegedly casting spells, 19 days for the content of
personal writings, and forbade her from wearing or drawing any symbols
related to the Wicca religion.
The ACLU of Pennsylvania (2005) (in conjunction with Americans United)
in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District won a Federal court case on
behalf of parents of public school children against the school district
that had attempted to impose religious beliefs on those who did not
share them. The parents objected that the religious beliefs, under the
guise 'intelligent design' as an alternative to the theory of evolution,
violated their religious liberty by promoting particular religious
beliefs to their children under the guise of science education.
The ACLU of Nevada (2005) defended the free exercise rights and free
speech rights of evangelical Christians to preach on the sidewalks of
the Strip in Las Vegas .
The ACLU of New Mexico (2005) joined forces with the American Family
Association to succeed in freeing a preacher, Shawn Miller, from the
Roosevelt County jail, where he was held for 109 days for street
preaching. The ACLU became involved at the request of Miller's wife,
Theresa.
The ACLU of Michigan (2005) filed a federal lawsuit on behalf of Joseph
Hanas, a Catholic, who was criminally punished for not completing a drug
rehabilitation program run by the Pentecostal group. Part of the
program required reading the Bible for seven hours a day, proclaiming
one's salvation at the alter, and being tested on Pentecostal
principles. Staff confiscated Mr. Hanas's rosary and told him
Catholicism was witchcraft.
The ACLU of Louisiana (2005) filed suit against the Department of
Corrections on behalf of a Mormon inmate, Norman Sanders, who was denied
the right to practice his religion by being denied access to religious
texts, including The Book of Mormon, and Mormon religious services.
'Mormons should receive the same accommodation of their beliefs as do
individuals of other faiths,' said Joe Cook, Executive Director, ACLU of
Louisiana. 'Fair and equal treatment means they deserve the right to a
place to meet, have a minister and discuss their beliefs like other groups.'
The ACLU of Pennsylvania (2005) won a battle against Turtle Creek
Borough that repeatedly denied an occupancy permit to a predominantly
African-American church, Ekklesia, which had purchased the church
building from a predominantly white parish. The case is Ekklesia Church
v. Borough of Turtle Creek. The case was settled.
The ACLU of Washington (2004) reached a favorable settlement on behalf
of Donald Ausderau, a Christian minister, who wanted to preach to the
public on Plaza sidewalks.
The ACLU of Virginia (2004) interceded with local authorities on behalf
of Baptist preachers who were refused permission to perform baptisms in
the river in Falmouth Waterside Park in Stafford County .
The Indiana Civil Liberties Union (2004) filed suit against the city of
Scottsburg for their repeated threats of arrest and/or citation against
members of the Old Paths Baptist Church for demonstrating regarding
various subjects dealing with their religious beliefs.
The ACLU of Pennsylvania (2005) won a battle against Turtle Creek
Borough that repeatedly denied an occupancy permit to a predominantly
African-American church, Ekklesia, which had purchased the church
building from a predominantly white parish. The case is Ekklesia Church
v. Borough of Turtle Creek. The case was settled. With the help of the
ACLU of Pennsylvania Greater Pittsburgh Chapter (2004), the Church Army,
an Episcopal social service group, was able to keep its program of
feeding the homeless running. The ACLU convinced the County Health
Department to reverse a decision that meals served to homeless people in
a church must be cooked on the premises, as opposed to individual
homes. Had the decision not been reversed, the ministry would have been
forced to cease the program.
The ACLU of Pennsylvania (2004) was victorious in its arguments that
government had to accommodate Amish drivers who used highly reflective
gray tape on their buggies instead of orange triangles, to which the
Amish objected for religious reasons.
The ACLU of New Jersey (2004) appeared as amicus curaie in opposition to
a prosecutor's act of striking potential jurors from a jury pool based
on the fact that the prosecutor perceived those individuals to be
'demonstrative about their religion.' One potential juror was a
missionary; the other juror was wearing Muslim religious garb, including
a skull cap. The ACLU-NJ argued that such an action violates the
religion clauses of both the United States and New Jersey Constitutions.
It also argued that not only is it inappropriate for jurors to be struck
because they are demonstrable about their religion but, in addition,
such a basis will often amount to a removal based upon a particular
religious belief or affiliation and will lead to discrimination against
identifiable religious minorities. The case is State v. Fuller (NJ SCt
2004).
The ACLU of Pennsylvania (2004) settled a lawsuit on behalf of Second
Baptist Church of Homestead, a predominantly African-American church
that had been denied a zoning permit to operate in a church building
purchased by a white congregation. The occupancy permit was awarded in
2002, and in 2004, the Borough of West Mifflin agreed to pay damages and
compensate the church for its loses. The case is Second Baptist Church
of Homestead v. Borough of West Mifflin.
The ACLU of Rhode Island (2003) interceded on behalf of an
interdenominational group of carolers who were denied the opportunity to
sing Christmas carols on Christmas Eve to inmates at the women's prison
in Cranston , Rhode Island .
The Iowa Civil Liberties Union (2002) publicly supported a group of
Christian students who filed a lawsuit against Davenport Schools
asserting their right to distribute religious literature during
non-instructional time. The ICLU filed a friend-of-the-court brief in
the suit on behalf of the students.
The ACLU of Massachusetts (2002) filed a brief supporting the right of
the Church of the Good News to run ads criticizing the secularization of
Christmas and promoting Christianity as the 'one true religion' after
the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority refused to allow the paid
advertisements to be posted and to sell additional advertising space to
the church.
The ACLU of Virginia (2002) joined the Rev. Jerry Falwell in winning a
lawsuit arguing the Virginia Constitution's provision that bans
religious organizations from incorporating is unconstitutional.
The ACLU of Michigan (beginning in 2001) represented Abby Moler, a
student at Sterling Heights Stevenson High School , whose yearbook entry
was deleted because of its religious content.
The ACLU of Massachusetts (2000) defended inmate Peter Kane's right to
exercise his religious beliefs when prison officials confiscated his
rosary beads. The rosary beads were black and white and prison rules
allow only solid-colored beads.
The ACLU of Virginia (2000) represented Charles D. Johnson, a street
preacher who was convicted under Richmond 's noise ordinance. The
Virginia Court of Appeals reversed his conviction in 2000. The case is
Johnson v. City of Richmond, 2000 WL 1459848 (Va. App. 2000).
The ACLU of Virginia (1999) filed suit against the Department of Defense
and the Office of Personnel Management on behalf of Michelle Hall, a
Jehovah's Witness who was fired from her job as a produce worker at Ft.
Belvoir commissary because she refused to sign a loyalty oath. Ms. Hall
objected to a phrase in the oath, that she would 'bear true faith and
allegiance to' the Constitution, because it contradicts her undivided
allegiance and faithfulness to Jehovah. The ACLU argued the oath
violated Ms. Hall's freedom of religion and speech rights. In a
settlement, Ms. Hall was reinstated and given back pay.
The ACLU of Virginia (1997-1999) represented Rita Warren and her mission
to erect a crèche on Fairfax County government space that had been set
aside as a public forum. The ACLU argued restricting the use of the
public forum to county residents only was an unreasonable restriction.
The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals agreed with the ACLU.
The ACLU of Iowa (1997) represented Conservative Christians in Clarke
County and won the right to force a county referendum on gambling.
The ACLU of Pennsylvania Greater Pittsburgh Chapter (1997) represented
Carlyn Kline, a fundamentalist Christian woman who challenged the
legality of a mandatory divorce-counseling program conducted by Catholic
Charities. Her religious beliefs prohibited her from attending
'non-Christian' counseling.
The ACLU of Pennsylvania Greater Pittsburgh Chapter (1997) intervened on
behalf of a Mennonite nurse and prevented his firing for refusing to
shave his beard for religious reasons. The employer demanded the nurse
shave his beard so the state-issued mask to guard against tuberculosis
would fit tightly despite the employee's offer to purchase a more
expensive mask that would is approved for work with T.B. patients and
that would fit properly with his beard intact. After receiving
telephone calls and letters from the ACLU, the state employer agreed to
accommodate the nurse's religion.
Amish farmers benefited from the ACLU of Pennsylvania Greater Pittsburgh
Chapter's letter threatening a lawsuit if the Elk Lick Township rescind
a municipal ordinance that prohibited farm tractors with steel wheels
from traveling on or over the township's roads. Amish religious beliefs
dictate that they maintain steel wheels on their tractors and the
ordinance prevented Amish farmers from moving their tractors from one
farm to another, and in some cases from one part of their property to
another. The township rescinded the ordinance in 1995 and dropped all
charges against the various persons charged under the ordinance.
The ACLU of Pennsylvania Greater Pittsburgh Chapter (1995) represented a
17-year-old foster child who was being forced to attend her foster
family's church. The foster child was Methodist and the church she was
being forced to attend was not of the Methodist faith. After the ACLU
threatened to sue the county allowed the child to attend a Methodist
church and placed her in a different foster home.
The ACLU of Pennsylvania Greater Pittsburgh Chapter (1995) secured the
right of a minister from the United Methodist Church to hold meetings in
the Harmony Township Borough building that was open for use by community
groups.
Iowa affiliate of the ACLU (1995) represented and vindicated the free
speech and religious expression of a conservative Christian activist,
Elaine Jaquith of Waterloo , who had been denied access to broadcast her
message on public television.
The ACLU of Texas (beginning in1995) represented Catholic and Mormon
Santa Fe High School students who opposed the proselytizing prayers
offered by the school's student council chaplain over the public address
system prior to home football games. The U.S. Supreme Court agreed
that public schools should not be used to proselytize on behalf of
religion. Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290 (2000)
The ACLU of Vermont (1994-95) represented evangelical Christians Freda
and Perry Hollyer, who were denied Medicaid and food stamp benefits
because they refused to obtain social security numbers for their
children. The Hollyers believed that obtaining social security numbers
for their children ran contrary to their understanding of the Book of
Revelations. The ACLU appealed the denial to the state's Human Services
Board. The Board ruled in favor of the Hollyers holding that the
state's legitimate interests in preventing fraud could be achieved
without use of a social security number. The Board's ruling is on file
with the ACLU's Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.
The ACLU of Utah (1990s) represented an evangelical Christian ministry
that had been evicted and denied future access as a vendor at a state
fair because fair-goers objected to the religious content of the message.
Non-Christian religions:
The ACLU of New Mexico (2005) represented Muammar Ali, a Muslim football
player for New Mexico State , who was released from play following
repeated questioning about al-Qaida.
The ACLU of North Carolina (2005) filed a lawsuit challenging the
state's practice of refusing to allow non-Christians from taking an oath
in court using a religious text other than the Bible.
In response to a lawsuit filed by the ACLU of Colorado (2005), the
Department of Corrections agreed to resume providing kosher meals to
Timothy Sheline, a Jewish prisoner, whose kosher diet was revoked for
one year as punishment for allegedly violating a dining hall rule by
taking two packages of butter and two packages of salad dressing and
placing them in his pocket to remove them from the dining hall.
The ACLU of Pennsylvania (2005) sued on behalf of a devout Muslim
firefighter, Curtis DeVeaux, for suspending the Muslim for refusing to
shave his beard as required by city regulations.
The ACLU of Wisconsin (2005) filed suit on behalf of Cynthia Rhouni, a
practicing Muslim woman, who was required to remove her headscarf in
front of male prison guards in order to visit her husband at the
Columbia Correctional Institution. Ms. Rhouni offered to remove her
headscarf and be searched by a female guard, but the prison would not
accommodate her request and respect her religious belief that her head
should not be uncovered in the presence of unrelated males.
The ACLU of Northern California (2005) filed a lawsuit in federal court
challenging restrictions on an asylum seeker's right to wear a religious
head covering. The plaintiff, Harpal Singh Cheema, is a devout Sikh,
imprisoned since 1997 while awaiting a decision on his asylum
application. The Sikh faith requires men to cover their heads at all
times, but Yuba County jail authorities will not permit Mr. Cheema to
leave his bed with his head covered.
The ACLU of New Jersey (2005) settled with the New Jersey Department of
Corrections on behalf of Patrick Pantusco, an inmate who practices Wicca
who was denied religious books and other religious items while in
prison. Persons of other religions were permitted to obtain religious
books and items specific to their religious practice. The prison's
denial of Mr. Pantusco's requests was based on the fact that the prison
refused to recognize Wicca as a legitimate religion. In the settlement,
the state agreed to permit Mr. Pantusco access to all requested items
and pay damages. The case is Pantusco v. Moore , et al. (D.N.J.).
The ACLU of Washington (2005) represented The Islamic Education Center
of Seattle, which was denied a conditional land use permit by the city
of Mountlake Terrace . The Center is a small nonprofit membership
organization founded primarily by Farsi-speaking (Iranian & Afghani)
Muslims living in the greater Seattle area. It holds prayer services on
Friday and Saturday evenings, sponsors educational programs like poetry
reading and language training, and holds various cultural and
traditional observances. The City denied the Center's land use permit
even though the property next door to the Center was a Christian church
that had received a similar permit. With the aid of the ACLU, the
Center was eventually awarded the necessary permit to allow it to operate.
The ACLU of Nebraska (2004) filed a suit against the city of Omaha on
behalf of Lubna Hussein, a practicing Muslim woman who wears a headscarf
and long sleeves for religious reasons, who was twice denied entry to
Deer Ridge pool property to watch her children swim for refusing to wear
a swimsuit. She did not intend on entering the pool to swim. The city
has since changed its policy allowing for medical and religious
exceptions to the swimsuit policy.
The ACLU of Virginia (2003) represented and filed suit on behalf of
Cynthia Simpson, a Wiccan who county leaders refused to add to a list of
religious leaders who could be invited to offer invocations at meetings
of the Chesterfield County board of Supervisors. The reason given for
refusing to add her to the list was that her religion was not of the
Judeo-Christian tradition. A federal magistrate judge found restricting
the invocations to Judeo-Christian prayers violated the constitutionally
required separation of church and state.
The Iowa Civil Liberties Union (2002) brought suit on behalf of two
sophomore students and their parents against the Woodbine Community
School District challenging the district's decision to have the school
choir sing the Lord's Prayer at the graduation ceremony. The
sophomores, Donovan and Ruby Skarin, are members of the choir and do not
want to be forced to 'sing praise to a God that we don't even believe in.'
The ACLU of Maryland (2000) called on the Baltimore Police Department to
rescind grooming rules prohibiting dreadlocks and reinstate Rastafarian
police officer Antoine Chambers who was suspended for refusing to cut
off his dreadlocks, which violates his religious beliefs.
The ACLU of New Jersey (1999), the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty,
and the Anti-Defamation League won a lawsuit on behalf of Muslim police
officers who were barred by department grooming standards from
maintaining their beards, as required by their religious beliefs. The
officers, Faruq Abdul-Aziz and Shakoor Mustafa, are devout Sunni
Muslims. The case is Fraternal Order of Police Newark Lodge No. 12 v.
City of Newark, 170 F.3d 359 (3d Cir. 1999).
The ACLU of Oregon (1996-present) filed suits on behalf of Portland
student Remington Powell and his parents against the Portland School
District for allowing The Boy Scouts, a religious organization, to
recruit in public schools during school hours. The first case alleged
constitutional and statutory violations of the separation of church and
state. The second case alleged violation of state anti-discrimination
laws based on public schools allowing the Boy Scouts to recruit in
school despite the organization's history of religious and
sexual-orientation discrimination.
.

User: "Julius Limbani"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	25 Oct 2006 05:13:04 PM

Cary Kittrell wrote:

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue. Does the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?

Sure does. They think it's a jolly decent idea that each person's
religion be their own concern, and not the affair of other
people. For example:

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200402270920.asp
An old friend of mine once said this about the American Civil Liberties
Union: "They're a bunch of whale-saving, criminal-loving pinkos — and
thank God for them."

This remark nicely summarizes the ambivalence with which many people
regard the ACLU. Few organizations dance closer to the very edge of the
loony-Left precipice than it does. There seems to be no thug too
hardened nor any cause too exotic for the ACLU to champion. At the same
time, if America ever were unlucky enough to face a president who
decided to remain in the Oval Office past her expiration date, the ACLU
would battle her and her junta with every sharp courtroom argument,
pointed legal filing, and well-aimed briefcase it could muster.
That said, the ACLU lately has stained the dark side of its reputation
through its actions in two cases involving the treatment of vulnerable,
young Americans. The ACLU is defending those who abuse children while
attacking those who give them moral guidance. This contrast reveals the
priorities of today's ACLU.
The Manhattan-based public-interest law firm is defending the North
American Man-Boy Love Association in a $200 million civil lawsuit filed
by Mr. and Mrs. Robert Curley. The Curleys claim that Charles Jaynes was
driven by the literature and website of NAMBLA, an outfit that advocates
sex between grown men and little boys, reportedly as young as age 8.
Jaynes did not simply read NAMBLA's materials and ponder its message. He
and Salvatore Sicari actively sought a boy with whom to copulate. They
picked 10-year-old Jeffrey Curley of Cambridge, Massachusetts. They
lured him into their car as he played outside his home in October 1997.
When Curley resisted their sexual advances, they choked him to death
with a gasoline-soaked rag. Then they took the boy's body across state
lines to Jayne's apartment in Manchester, New Hampshire. They molested
the cadaver and stuffed it into a cement-filled Rubbermaid container.
Finally, they crossed state lines again into Maine, whereupon they
tossed Jeffrey Curley's remains into the Great Works River, from which
it was recovered within days. Jaynes and Sicari were convicted of these
crimes in 1998, for which they are serving life sentences.
So why blame NAMBLA? Is it any more responsible for this atrocity than
is Vintage Books, the publisher of Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita? Imagine
that Jaynes and Sicari had read that 1955 novel about a middle-aged
intellectual's affair with a 12-year-old girl. What if these two men
found an equally young female who they abused and killed, just as they
murdered Jeffrey Curley in real life? Putting aside the fact that Lolita
is a work of fiction, would Vintage Books face civil justice?
Probably not, nor would NAMBLA if it limited its output to fictional
depictions of "man-boy love." It is difficult to pin imaginary crimes on
actual criminals who turn make-believe into mayhem.
Within the realm of nonfiction, as revolting as its ideas are, NAMBLA
certainly has a First Amendment right to argue that America's laws
should be changed to permit sexual relations between adult men and
third-grade school boys. Most Americans would disagree vehemently, as
well they should. That's called debate. It's the American way.
As ACLU of Massachusetts Legal Director John Reinstein sees it:
"Regardless of whether people agree with or abhor NAMBLA's views,
holding the organization responsible for crimes committed by others who
read their materials would gravely endanger important First Amendment
freedoms."
However, as Fox News' Bill O'Reilly noted, there is more at play here
than pamphleteering. "According to lawyers familiar with [NAMBLA's]
website," O'Reilly explained, "it actually posted techniques designed to
lure boys into having sex with men and also supplied information on what
an adult should do if caught."
NAMBLA is "not just publishing material that says it's OK to have sex
with children and advocating changing the law," says Larry Frisoli, a
Cambridge attorney who is arguing the Curleys case in federal court.
NAMBLA, he says, "is actively training their members how to rape
children and get away with it. They distribute child pornography and
trade live children among NAMBLA members with the purpose of having sex
with them."
Frisoli cites a NAMBLA publication he calls "The Rape and Escape
Manual." Its actual title is "The Survival Manual: The Man's Guide to
Staying Alive in Man-Boy Sexual Relationships."
"Its chapters explain how to build relationships with children," Frisoli
tells me. "How to gain the confidence of children's parents. Where to go
to have sex with children so as not to get caught...There is advice, if
one gets caught, on when to leave America and how to rip off credit card
companies to get cash to finance your flight. It's pretty detailed."
"In his diary, Jaynes said he had reservations about having sex with
children until he discovered NAMBLA," Frisoli continues. "It's in his
diary in 1996, around the time he joined NAMBLA, one year before the
death of Jeffrey Curley."
The practical, step-by-step advice Jaynes followed goes far beyond
appeals to sway public opinion in favor of pedophilia. Such language
aids and abets felonious conduct. If such conspiracy results in
homicide, it is reasonable for NAMBLA to face civil liability if not
criminal prosecution.
Ohio's Court of Appeals found NAMBLA complicit in an earlier child-rape
case. NAMBLA's literature, discovered in a defendant's possession,
reflected "preparation and purpose," according to the Buckeye State's
top bench.
The ACLU has offered material support to those who openly preach
pedophilia and arguably encourage kidnapping, rape, and murder. Yet this
legal group is energetically hostile to an organization that tries to
turn boys into men, with sex alien to the process.
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	25 Oct 2006 05:21:37 PM

In article <QjR%g.662135$Jn2.632557@fe10.news.easynews.com> Julius Limbani <wild@geese.edu> writes:

Cary Kittrell wrote:

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue. Does the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?

Sure does. They think it's a jolly decent idea that each person's
religion be their own concern, and not the affair of other
people. For example:

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200402270920.asp

Lessee here: I provide 47 cases where the ACLU has defended
an individual's right to religious freedom, and you "counter"
with a single case where the ACLU has defended freedom of
speech?
OK...
-- cary
.

User: "Julius Limbani"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	25 Oct 2006 05:42:18 PM

Cary Kittrell wrote:

In article <QjR%g.662135$Jn2.632557@fe10.news.easynews.com> Julius Limbani <wild@geese.edu> writes:

Cary Kittrell wrote:

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue. Does the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?

Sure does. They think it's a jolly decent idea that each person's
religion be their own concern, and not the affair of other
people. For example:

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200402270920.asp

Lessee here: I provide 47 cases where the ACLU has defended
an individual's right to religious freedom,

http://www.geocities.com/graymada/aclu.html
The Truth About The American Civil Liberties Union
Extension of Remarks of Hon. John H. Rousselot of California In The
House Of Representatives Wednesday, September 20, 1961
Mr ROUSSELOT: Mr. Speaker, many people have becomed very concerned about
the connections of certain persons involved in the affairs of the
American Civil Liberties Union with Communist front groups. They are
asking the question: Does the ACLU really promote adherence to rights
guaranteed the individual by the Constitution?
Organizational Research Associates, the address of which is Post Office
Box 51, Garden Grove, Calif., has prepared a pamphlet entitled, "The
Truth About the American Civil Liberties Union," which I believe should
be brought to the attention of every member of Congress and to the
American public. Under unanimous consent, I include the pamphlet in the
Appendix of the CONGRESSIONAL RECORD:
"Masters of Deceit," J. Edgar Hoover, page 228: "Fronts probably
represent the party's most successful tactic in capturing non-Communist
support. Like mass agitation and infiltration, fronts espouse the
deceptive party line (hence the term "front"), while actually advancing
the real party line. In this way the party is able to influence
thousands of non-Communists, collect large sums of money, and reach the
minds, pens, and tongues of many high-ranking and distinguished
individuals. Moreover fronts are excellent fields for party recruitment."
Dr. Fred Schwarz, executive director of the International Christian
Anticommunism Crusade, "Communist Legal Subversion," page 75, HCUA: "Any
attempt to judge the influence of Communists by their numbers is like
trying to determine the validity of the hull of a boat by relating the
area of the holes to the area which is sound. One hole can sink the
ship. Communism is the theory of the disciplined few controlling and
directing the rest. One person in a sensitive position can control and
manipulate thousands of others."
One quick way to evaluate the ideology of organizations is through
consideration of the statements and claims of their leaders. So it seems
neccessary for a realistic appraisal of the civil rights policy of the
American Civil Liberties Union that we develop the factual background of
their prominent officials and leaders.
It has taken us months of painstaking research to prepare this pamphlet;
it will take you only minutes to read it. So please read it and then
pass it on and inform others of the information you are about to learn.
SECTION 1
These are a few of the past and present prominent officials and leaders
of the American Civil Liberties Union.
1. Roger Baldwin, founder and guiding light of the ACLU for over 30
years, is now a member of the National Committee of the ACLU. Mr Roger
Baldwin has a record of over 100 communist-front affiliations and
citations (documented in detail, CONGRESSIONAL RECORD May 26, 1952). In
an article written for Soviet Russia Today (September 1934), Roger
Baldwin said: "When the power of the working class is once achieved, as
it has been only in the Soviet Union, I am for maintaining it by any
means whatsoever." "The class struggle is the central conflict of the
world, all others are coincidental."
Entry of Roger Baldwin in the Harvard reunion book on the occasion of
the 30th anniversary reunion of his class of 1905 (1935), "I seek social
ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole
control of those who produced the wealth: communism is the goal."
2. Dr. Harry Ward, first chairman of the ACLU. Dr. Harry Ward has a
record of over 200 Communist front affiliations and citations listed by
the House Committee on UnAmerican Activities (HCUA). Dr. Harry Ward was
chairman of one of the largest Communist fronts to flourish in this
country, "The American League for Peace and Democracy," which was placed
on the Attorney General of the United States list of subversive
organizations on June 1, 1948. Dr. Ward is the author of "Soviet
Democracy" and "Soviet Spirit," two pro-Communist books which clearly
show Dr. Ward's love for the Soviet system of government. The California
Senate Fact Finding Committee on Un-American Activities, in their 1948
report, page 246, said: "The Communist affiliation of Dr. Harry F. Ward
is indicative of the Communist sympaties of the members and sponsors of
the "Friends of the Soviet Union."
3. Abraham L. Wirin, chief counsel for the Southern California Chapter
of the ACLU, sometimes referred to as "Mr. ACLU."
In 1934 A. L. Wirin formed a law partnership with Leo Gllagher and
Grover Johnson (reference: Daily Peoples World, Mar. 5, 1934, official
publication of the Communist Party on the west coast). Mr Leo Gallagher
ran for State office on the Communist Party ticket in 1936 and Grover
Johnson, when asked by a governmental investigating agency if he had
ever been a member of the Communist Party, refused to answer the
question on the grounds that he might incriminate himself.
In 1954, A. L. Wirin was a candidate for the executive board of National
Lawyers Guild (reference: Los Angeles Daily Journal, Jan 13, 1954). The
National Lawyers Guild has been cited as a Communist Front organization
by the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HCUA) September 21,
1950. (Four years before, Mr. Wirin was a candidate for the executive
board.)
4. Dr. Albert Eason Monroe, executive director of the Southern
California Chapter of the ACLU:
In 1952, Dr. Albert Eason Monroe, U.S. Navy serial No. 316900, was
discharged from the U.S. Naval Reserve under conditions other than
honorable.
In 1950, Dr. Monroe was fired from his position as head of the English
department of San Francisco college for refusing to sign a loyalty oath.
(The purpose of loyalty oaths is to protect the unsuspecting individual
from lending his name to a Communist cause and from becoming a Communist
dupe. The requirements of loyalty oaths have multiplied the obstacles to
the Communists in recruiting memberships for their front organizations
and maintaining discipline over fellow travelers in Government service.
Few people will swear to an oath knowing it to be false and knowing that
they might be liable to indictment and imprisonment for perjury. This
requirement places a most difficult hurdle in front of the Communists
attempting to ensnare an unsuspecting recruit into their conspiracy.)
In 1953, Dr. Albert Eason Monroe was listed as being chairman of the
Federation for Repeal of the Levering Act (ie., loyalty oaths), which
was cited as being a Communist front organization by the California
State Senate Committee on Education in its 1952 report to the State
legislature.
5. Rev. A. A. Heist, executive director of the Southern California
Chapter of the ACLU in 1952, and Dr. Monroe's predecessor. Rev. A. A.
Heist was a signer of the statement to the President of the United
States, defending the Communist Party (reference: Daily Worker Mar 5,
1941). In 1952, the Reverend Heist resigned his position in the ACLU to
become director of a new organization which he founded, called the
Citizens' Committee to Preserve American Freedoms (CCPAF). This
organization is run by its executive secretary, Mr. Frank Wilkinson, an
identified Communist. At a meeting of the district council of the
southern California district of the Communist Party, United States of
America, Dorothy Healy, well-known Communist and chairman of the
district council, said, "The party preferred public protest meetings
against the HCUA to be held by the Citizens Committee To Preserve
American Freedoms rather than under party auspices because Communists
could attend without danger of being exposed as party members."
(Reference HCUA, H. Rept. 259, Apr 3, 1950, "Report on the Southern
California District of the Communist Party". The Citizens Committee To
Preserve American Freedoms was cited as being a Communist front
organization by the HCUA on April 3, 1959.
The Reverend Heist stated in a speech to an audience of high school and
junior college students in Pasadena that "the Constitution of the United
States is outmoded, outdated, and impotent." (One of the stated goals of
the ACLU is to preserve the Constitution.)
In 1948, the Reverend Heist protested the withdrawal of the use of their
hall by Occidental College to an identified Communist poet, Langston
Hughes, who was to speak on a poem of his entitled, "Goodbye, Christ,"
which called for "Christ, Jesus, Lord God Jehovah" to "beat it" and
"make way for a new guy named Marx, Communist Lenin, Peasant Stalin, and
worker me." (Reference: Hollywood Citizen News, February 26, 1948.) This
would not be a strange protest from an atheistic Communist, but when it
comes from a Methodist minister?
6. Carey McWilliams, a member of the national committee of the ACLU in
1948, who now figures prominently in the affairs of the ACLU, has been
identified in sworn testimony, according to Government documents, as a
member of the Communist Party. Carey McWilliams has a record of over 50
Communist-front affiliations and citations. He is the editor of
"Rights," the official publication of the Emergency Civil Liberties
Committee which has been cited as a Communist front by the HCUA
(November 8, 1957).
7. Prof. William A. Kilpatrick, prominent member of the ACLU on the east
coast, was for many years head of Teacherc College, Columbia University.
In his book, "The Teacher and Society," published in 1939, Professor
Kilpatrick said that "the revolution by force and violence was probably
necessary in Russia, but it would not be necessary in America. Here, the
same goals could be acheived by effectuating change within the framework
of the Constitution."
8. William Z. Foster, former head of the Communist Party, United States
of America, was a former member of the National Committee of the ACLU.
9. Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, former member of the National Committee of
the ACLU until 1940, is a member of the Central Committee of the
Communist Party, United States of America.
In the report on "Communist Propaganda in America" (published 1935,
A.F.L.) as submitted to the State Department, by William Green, the late
president of the American Federation of Labor, Mr. Green states that:
"During all the years since the establishment of the Soviet regime in
Russia, propaganda in the United States has been conducted, not only
through agencies directly set up by the Communist high command, but
through agencies and organizations in which non-Communists of good
standing and repute have been induced to participate. A careful studyof
these organizations shows that they are so related through interlocking
directorates that apparently some hundreds of organizations are
dominated by an interlocking group of directors numbering not more than
60. Their tactics may perhaps be called the tactics of irritation, since
their purpose is to create dissatisfaction as widely as possible and to
bring into disrepute the authorities, and the established institutions
of the country. As an example, the American Civil Liberties Union may be
cited."
To support Mr. Green's statement of "the interlocking directorates," we
discovered that when we looked at the record of the top 15 past and
current leaders of the ACLU, we found that they had a combined record of
over 1000 Communist front affiliations and citations.
Section II
What others think of the ACLU
1. Daily Worker, March 22, 1957. In reference to an ACLU meeting (New
York chapter) featuring John Gates, editor of the Daily Worker, "it
remains an axiom of our time, that to defend the rights of Communists is
to defend the rights of all Americans." (We as a nation are forced to
spend $50 billion a year to defend ourselves from the Communists.)
2. California Senate Fact Finding Committee on Un-American Activities,
1948 report, page 107: "The ACLU may be definitely classified as a
Communist front or transmission belt organization." "At least 90 percent
of its efforts are on behalf of Communists who come in conflict with the
law."
3. House Committee To Investigate Communist Activities in the United
States, report 2290 entitled, "Investigation of Communist Propaganda":
"It is quite apparent that the main function of the ACLU is to protect
the Communists in their advocacy of force and vilence to overthrow the
U.S. Government."
4. Commonwealth of Massachusetts, special commission to investigate
Communist avtivities: "The ACLU, with its front of respectability and
with its large membership of sincere, worthy citizens, has provided
important legal talent and a camouflage of decency behind which
Communist forces have agitated and promoted their campaigns."
Section III
Odd Coincidences
1. The ACLU, long an advocate of unlimited freedom of the press and
freedom of speech, asked Secretary of Defense Charles Wilson to withdraw
a pamphlet entitled "How to Spot a Communist," prepared by the 1st Army
and used by the Watertown, Mass., arsenal (New York Times, June 12, 1955).
2. The ACLU protested the publishing by the League of Decency of a list
of movies and books that the league considered immoral. (Reference:
Daily Worker, Mar. 22, 1957). (It has long been known that one of the
primary aims of the Communist Party is to subvert the morals of the
American public.)
3. The ACLU, when queried by Columnist Lawrence Fertig as to why "They
did not defend the most basic of all civil liberties--the right of a man
to earn his living without paying tribute to any other individual or
private organization" (right to work laws in various States), replied,
"there are no civil liberties grounds on which such statutes should be
supported," (reference: Fortnights magazine, July 1955).
4. The ACLU has voiced the opinion many times that "they welcome
investigation," but they unleash their vitriolic abuse upon the American
Legion and brand the American Legion as a fascist group because they not
only investigated the ACLU, but have requested the HCUA every year since
1953 to investigate the ACLU.
5. The ACLU has been the recipient of numerous grants from the Garland
Foundation (American Fund for Public Service) which is the notorious
bankroll for Communist front organizations. The Garland Fund is
characterized by the California Senate Fact Finding Commission, 1948
report, page 247, as "the source of revenue for Communist causes is
generally referred to as the Garland Fund."
The Garland Fund has also been cited by the United States House Special
Committee on Un-American Activities as follows: "The Garland Fund was a
major source for the financing of Communist Party enterprises,"
(reference: H. Rept. 1311, Mar 9, 1944).
Among those who have served as directors of the Garland Fund and who
were directly responsible for the disbursement of funds to the different
Communist Front organizations and who were or are now prominent members
of the governing body of the ACLU are: Roger Baldwin, Harry F. Ward,
William Z. Foster, Robert Morss Lovett, Morris L. Ernst, Elizabeth
Gurley Flynn, Oswald Garrison Villard, and E. M. Borchard.
6. Frank Wilkinson, an identified Communist and chief hatchetman for the
Emergency Civil Liberties Committee and the Citizens Committee to
Preserve American Freedoms in the "Operation Abolition" program, who, so
far as we know, is not even a member of the ACLU, seems to be so
prominent in the affairs of the ACLU. Also, an odd coincidence that a
new organization that has been formed and which calls itself the
National Committee to Abolish the House Un-American Activities Committee
(NCAHUAC) and has eight key members in the organization that have been
identified as members of the Communist Party gives its mailing address
at 617 North Larchmont Boulevard, Los Angeles 4, Calif., which is also
the mailing address of the Citizens Committee to Preserve American
Freedoms (CCPAF) and that of the 12 national committee members of the
NCAHUAC, eight are currently officers or executive committee members of
the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee (interlocking directorates?).
If any ACLU spokesman charges that this report is biased, our answer is
that is is biased only on the side of Americanism--that its only fault
for those who don't like it is its bias in favor of truth and fact. in
our months of investigation we were unable to find one occasion where
the ACLU has something good to say about America. We were able, however,
to find many occasions where the ACLU and its leaders had something good
to say about Soviet Russia or did something that would benefit Soviet
Russia.
In our opinion, the ACLU and its brother organizations have mastered the
technique of Josef Goebbels and practiced by the Moscow Communists to
the nth degree. "Tell a lie, make it big, and tell it often enough so
that soon everyone will believe it." They have been spouting forth the
statement that "the rights of all Americans are being threatened" so
long and so hard that already everyone is looking for the Gestapo FBI,
the Fascist police, the minions of that inquisition, the HCUA, behind
every bush and every telephone.
Deep down in the hearts of all good Americans we know that this is a lie
and if we stop and think of its source, then we can look at it in its
true light.
Nicolai Lenin said, "We must build communism with non-Communist hands,"
Please don't let it be your hands.
A Soviet dialectician's definition of a Communist front
George Dimitrov, "Advice to the Lenin School of Political Warfare," as
quoted in the report of the American Bar Association Committee on
Communist Tactics, Strategy and Objectives--CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, August
22, 1958, page 17719. "As Soviet power grows, there will be greater
aversion to Communist Parties everywhere. So we must practice the
techniques of withdrawal. Never appear in the foreground; Let our
friends do the work. We must always remember that one sympathizer is
generally worth more than a dozen militant Communists. A university
professor, who, without being a party member, lends himself to the
interests of the Soviet Union, is worth more than a hundred men with
party cards. A writer of reputation or a retired general are worth more
than 500 poor devils who don't know any better than to get themselves
beaten up by the police. Every man has his value, his merit.
.

User: "gatt"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	25 Oct 2006 07:13:26 PM

"Julius Limbani" <wild@geese.edu> wrote in message
news:eLR%g.31381$R52.27124@fe07.news.easynews.com...

The Truth About The American Civil Liberties Union

"The Florida ACLU filed court papers yesterday supporting Limbaugh's
argument that investigators violated his constitutional right to privacy
when they seized his medical records in November to investigate whether he
violated drug laws when he purchased prescription painkillers."
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/01/13/backing_limbaugh_aclu_goes_to_court/
-c
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	25 Oct 2006 06:02:05 PM

Julius Limbani <wild@geese.edu>

Cary Kittrell wrote:

In article <QjR%g.662135$Jn2.632557@fe10.news.easynews.com> Julius Limbani <wild@geese.edu> writes:

Cary Kittrell wrote:

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue. Does the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?

Sure does. They think it's a jolly decent idea that each person's
religion be their own concern, and not the affair of other
people. For example:

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200402270920.asp

Lessee here: I provide 47 cases where the ACLU has defended
an individual's right to religious freedom,

http://www.geocities.com/graymada/aclu.html

Lessee here: I provide 47 cases where the ACLU has defended
an individual's right to religious freedom, and you "counter"
with a set of documents a half-century -- or more, mostly more --
old?
Starting with J Edgar "feather boas and blackmail" Hoover, at that?
C'mon, let's see if you can actually speak for yourself.
Here, you may use this space:
-- cary
.

User: "Douglas Berry"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	25 Oct 2006 07:43:47 PM

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 22:42:18 GMT Julius Limbani <wild@geese.edu> said
the following in alt.atheism and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...

September 20, 1961

Now you are using speeches made 45 years ago.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
.

User: "Strife767"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	25 Oct 2006 06:19:30 PM

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:42:18 -0400, Julius Limbani <wild@geese.edu> wrote:

Cary Kittrell wrote:

In article <QjR%g.662135$Jn2.632557@fe10.news.easynews.com> Julius
Limbani <wild@geese.edu> writes:

Cary Kittrell wrote:

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue. Does
the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?

Sure does. They think it's a jolly decent idea that each person's
religion be their own concern, and not the affair of other people.
For example:

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200402270920.asp

Lessee here: I provide 47 cases where the ACLU has defended
an individual's right to religious freedom,

http://www.geocities.com/graymada/aclu.html

LOL, you dumbass.
[plonk]
--
____________ _____________ __________________
__ ___/_ /__________(_)__ __/____/__ /_ ___/__ /
_____ \_ __/_ ___/_ /__ /_ _ _ \_ /_ __ \__ /
____/ // /_ _ / _ / _ __/ / __/ / / /_/ /_ /
/____/ \__/ /_/ /_/ /_/ \___//_/ \____/ /_/
Skeptic, atheist...and somehow an optimist. Go figure.
I want to change the world.
.

User: "chibiabos"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 08:09:47 AM

In article <8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com>, J Young
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
Because, as we all know, nothing works like prayer.
-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
.

User: "Ghod"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 01:41:47 PM

"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:241020060609470701%chib@nospam.com...

In article <8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com>, J Young
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:

Because, as we all know, nothing works like prayer.

Exactly.
.

User: "Don Homuth"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 02:45:09 PM

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:41:47 -0500, "Ghod" <ghod@ameritech.net> wrote:

"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:241020060609470701%chib@nospam.com...

In article <8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com>, J Young
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:

Because, as we all know, nothing works like prayer.

Exactly.

The answers to prayer are always random:
Yes
No
Maybe later
.

User: "Brian Westley"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 05:53:59 PM

Don Homuth <dhomuth1@comcast.net> writes:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:41:47 -0500, "Ghod" <ghod@ameritech.net> wrote:

"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:241020060609470701%chib@nospam.com...

In article <8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com>, J Young
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:

Because, as we all know, nothing works like prayer.

Exactly.

The answers to prayer are always random:
Yes
No
Maybe later

Signs point to yes.
Yes.
Reply hazy, try again.
Without a doubt.
My sources say no.
As I see it, yes.
You may rely on it.
Concentrate and ask again.
Outlook not so good.
It is decidedly so.
Better not tell you now.
Very doubtful.
Yes - definitely.
It is certain.
Cannot predict now.
Most likely.
Ask again later.
My reply is no.
Outlook good.
Don't count on it.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.

User: "lein"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 02:53:23 PM

Don Homuth wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:41:47 -0500, "Ghod" <ghod@ameritech.net> wrote:

"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:241020060609470701%chib@nospam.com...

In article <8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com>, J Young
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:

Because, as we all know, nothing works like prayer.

Exactly.

The answers to prayer are always random:

Yes
No
Maybe later

As are answers from political canidates
.

User: "Lobby Dosser"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 08:23:04 PM

"lein" <boomer_the_cat@my-deja.com> wrote:

Don Homuth wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:41:47 -0500, "Ghod" <ghod@ameritech.net>
wrote:

"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:241020060609470701%chib@nospam.com...

In article <8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com>, J
Young <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:

Because, as we all know, nothing works like prayer.

Exactly.

The answers to prayer are always random:

Yes
No
Maybe later

As are answers from political canidates

If they are recognizable as answers.
.

User: "Don Homuth"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 02:55:59 PM

On 24 Oct 2006 12:53:23 -0700, "lein" <boomer_the_cat@my-deja.com>
wrote:

Don Homuth wrote:

The answers to prayer are always random:

Yes
No
Maybe later

As are answers from political canidates

Reasonable candidates don't claim to have the godlike attribute of
omniscience.
Reasonable constituents learn not to expect it.
Fools do.
Never could figure out why that is.
.

User: "lein"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 02:59:29 PM

Don Homuth wrote:

On 24 Oct 2006 12:53:23 -0700, "lein" <boomer_the_cat@my-deja.com>
wrote:

Don Homuth wrote:

The answers to prayer are always random:

Yes
No
Maybe later

As are answers from political canidates

Reasonable candidates don't claim to have the godlike attribute of
omniscience.

There's the rub, "reasonable" canidates.
.

User: "Don Homuth"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 03:09:46 PM

On 24 Oct 2006 12:59:29 -0700, "lein" <boomer_the_cat@my-deja.com>
wrote:

Reasonable candidates don't claim to have the godlike attribute of
omniscience.

There's the rub, "reasonable" canidates.

Reasonable question:
Can you think of even One mistake you've made during your
administration?
Unreasonable candidate answer: No -- not offhand.
Reasonable candidate answer: Yes -- there have been several.
See the difference?
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	25 Oct 2006 02:06:57 AM

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:09:46 -0700, Don Homuth <dhomuth1@comcast.net>
wrote:

On 24 Oct 2006 12:59:29 -0700, "lein" <boomer_the_cat@my-deja.com>
wrote:

Reasonable candidates don't claim to have the godlike attribute of
omniscience.

There's the rub, "reasonable" canidates.

Reasonable question:

Can you think of even One mistake you've made during your
administration?

Unreasonable candidate answer: No -- not offhand.

Reasonable candidate answer: Yes -- there have been several.

See the difference?

Reasonable candidate who wants to be reelected and has a normal
constituency - I can think of a few things I'd do differently, but I
haven't made any mistakes.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.

User: "Tim McGaughy"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	27 Oct 2006 11:38:35 PM

lein wrote:

Don Homuth wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:41:47 -0500, "Ghod" <ghod@ameritech.net> wrote:

"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:241020060609470701%chib@nospam.com...

In article <8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com>, J Young
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:

Because, as we all know, nothing works like prayer.

Exactly.

The answers to prayer are always random:

Yes
No
Maybe later

As are answers from political canidates

Untrue.
Answers from political candidates are usually specifically tailored to
what the majority of the voting public wants to hear.
.

User: "Dionisio"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 08:15:58 PM

chibiabos wrote:

Because, as we all know, nothing works like prayer.

If prayer worked, it would be taxed.
--
"If Christians want us to believe in a Redeemer, let them act redeemed."
--Voltaire
.

User: "Tim McGaughy"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	27 Oct 2006 11:33:17 PM

chibiabos wrote:

In article <8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com>, J Young
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:

Because, as we all know, nothing works like prayer.

It's funny because it's literally true.
.

User: "Jeff North"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	28 Oct 2006 12:21:38 PM

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:33:17 -0500, in alt.politics.homosexuality Tim
McGaughy <teekem@ispwest.com>
<ehumie12jrn@enews1.newsguy.com> wrote:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/PrayerStudy1.htm
Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people
who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has
found.
And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of
post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps
because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers
suggested.
---------------------------------------------------------------
jnorthau@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------
.

User: "Tim McGaughy"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	30 Oct 2006 09:59:46 PM

Jeff North wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:33:17 -0500, in alt.politics.homosexuality Tim
McGaughy <teekem@ispwest.com>
<ehumie12jrn@enews1.newsguy.com> wrote:

I stand corrected. Nothing works BETTER than prayer.
.

User: "Tim McGaughy"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	30 Oct 2006 09:58:19 PM

Jeff North wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:33:17 -0500, in alt.politics.homosexuality Tim
McGaughy <teekem@ispwest.com>
<ehumie12jrn@enews1.newsguy.com> wrote:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/PrayerStudy1.htm
Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people
who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has
found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of
post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps
because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers
suggested.
---------------------------------------------------------------
jnorthau@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------

User: "LC"
Title: Re: Prayer rally <"J Young" troll>	24 Oct 2006 08:38:50 AM

Insane and indecent, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8pCdnVe4KoETB6DYnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@giganews.com...

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue. Does the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?

<snicker>
Move on, nothing to see here.
"Hey look, it's Lappcatt the gay anti-abortionist this time disguising
himself as "Jon Young". Yours must be a very lonely existence with no
friends and shunned wherever you post. Why not just end your misery and
kill yourself?"
From: "Professor" <vze3v...@verizon.net>
Message-ID: 1w0kc.33692$eK3.9945@nwrdny01.gnilink.net
.

User: "Ray Fischer"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 01:33:08 AM

J Young <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue.

Once again you find yourself on the wrong side of decency and liberty.

Does the
concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?

Yes. It is you that does not know decency.

"I understand there's a separation of church and state, but schools are a
different thing; somebody needs to teach those kids," said Clark, 67, who
said her education in public schools started with a prayer.

Teach them hatred and intolerance? Teach them to kill people they
don't like?
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.

User: "Parsifal"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	23 Oct 2006 11:50:23 PM

J Young schrieb:

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue.

Idiot. Your systematical opposition to the ACLU shows that 1- you don't
know anything about your history, 2- you hate democracy, 3- you hate
your country, 4- you're a hypocrit *****.
But all knew that.
Does the

concept of 'decency' hold any bearing with this organization?

***** you J Young, you don't even know the meaning of that word. Your
mere existence is indecent.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=3D/20061011/COUNTY10/=

610110390/1006/NEWS

Mt. Juliet official wants religion to be part of school

The date is marked on Peggy Clark's calendar: 6 p.m. Oct. 24, Lakeview
Elementary School in Mt. Juliet.

That's when and where Clark plans to participate in a prayer rally organi=

zed

by a Mt. Juliet city commissioner in support of the school in a legal bat=

tle

over separation of church and state.

"I understand there's a separation of church and state, but schools are a
different thing; somebody needs to teach those kids," said Clark, 67, who
said her education in public schools started with a prayer.

"A lot of people I know object to it, but if your school had more of what=

was raised with, we wouldn't have all this mess that we have now. We
wouldn't have guns in schools."

The prayer rally is organized by Mt. Juliet Commissioner Glen Linthicum, =

who

said it was time for the community to take a stand against what he called=

"frivolous" lawsuit recently filed by the Tennessee chapter of the Americ=

Civil Liberties Union against the Wilson County school district.

The suit, filed on behalf of a local family, alleges that religious
activities endorsed by Lakeview Elementary resulted in constitutional
violations.

"What I hope to accomplish is to send a clear message to ACLU and the rest
of Tennessee that Mt. Juliet stands for traditional values in America and
that ACLU needs to ply their trade elsewhere," Linthicum said.

"This is an important fundamental question that faces America today, the
attack on traditional values in America. Are we going to allow our herita=

to be suppressed by a progressive minority?"

=20
=20
=20
--=20
--=20
----------
=20
J Y=F6ung
youngopinions@aol.com

User: "Larry Scratch"
Title: Re: Prayer rally to protest ACLU suit	24 Oct 2006 10:52:12 PM

Parsifal wrote:

J Young schrieb:

Once again, the ACLU finds itself on the wrong end of an issue.

The ACLU is a POS organization that someone should blow to hell! They
are anti-American and anti anything decent. They ought to send it to
North Korea where it would be welcome with open arms.
--
“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and then you shall
find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the
sword the faith he preached.”
Byzantine emperor Manuel II Palaeologus
.

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