Science > Abortion > Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is?
| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"Jerry Okamura" |
| Date: |
22 Oct 2005 01:29:46 PM |
| Object: |
Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
"~ The TIKRIT TIGERS ~" <TIKRIT_TIGERS@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:1129936856.416910.211050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated.
0 WMDs.
- Do You Know Where Your Government Is? -
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better life. Certainly
a better life that they had to look forward to with Saddam in control,
because had he still been in control, a citizen of Iraq would never know if
they would end up being thrown in jail for no reason other than they "may
have" upset someone, tortured, or killed. But apparently the only people
you care about are Americans....you don't seem to care one twit about Iraqi
lives.
.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
23 Oct 2005 01:17:22 AM |
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"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:uyv6f.1956$Jo3.284@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"~ The TIKRIT TIGERS ~" <TIKRIT_TIGERS@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:1129936856.416910.211050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated.
0 WMDs.
- Do You Know Where Your Government Is? -
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better life.
Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to with Saddam in
control, because had he still been in control, a citizen of Iraq would
never know if they would end up being thrown in jail for no reason other
than they "may have" upset someone, tortured, or killed.
In what way is the Iraqi citizen's situation improved? Can you provide a
realistic overview that backs you up?
In what way are most Iraqis' prospects for the next decade improved? Can
you provide a realistic forecast that backs you up?
But apparently the only people you care about are Americans....you don't
seem to care one twit about Iraqi lives.
US and allied arms have "accidentally" killed almost as many Iraqis in the
past 2.5 years (to say nothing of how many died under US-demanded,
US-enforced UN sanctions) than Saddam killed deliberately in his last
decade.
Who cares?
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
23 Oct 2005 01:00:32 PM |
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"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:6oGdndintr9pt8beRVn-pg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:uyv6f.1956$Jo3.284@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"~ The TIKRIT TIGERS ~" <TIKRIT_TIGERS@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:1129936856.416910.211050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated.
0 WMDs.
- Do You Know Where Your Government Is? -
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better life.
Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to with Saddam in
control, because had he still been in control, a citizen of Iraq would
never know if they would end up being thrown in jail for no reason other
than they "may have" upset someone, tortured, or killed.
In what way is the Iraqi citizen's situation improved? Can you provide a
realistic overview that backs you up?
Are you going to make the argument that the people of Iraq were better off
with Saddam and his merry men in power? Are you going to make the argument,
that if democracy works in some form in Iraq, that the people in Iraq would
not be better off that they would have been when Saddam and his merry men
had remained in power? Are you going to make the argument, that if Saddam
and his ilk had remained in power and one of his two sons had taken over,
that the people in Iraq would be better off? All I said, is the people of
Iraq now have a "chance" at a better life. Whether they do indeed have a
better life or not, is really in their hands.
In what way are most Iraqis' prospects for the next decade improved? Can
you provide a realistic forecast that backs you up?
This is not rocket science. Had Saddam and his ilk remained in power, the
people of Iraq knew what kind of life they would have...their faith was in
the hands of a dictator. They now have at least a "chance" at a better
life. And that "chance" will be a reflection on how much better or worse
they plot their future....but it will be up to them....not some
dictator...to make that choice.
But apparently the only people you care about are Americans....you don't
seem to care one twit about Iraqi lives.
US and allied arms have "accidentally" killed almost as many Iraqis in the
past 2.5 years (to say nothing of how many died under US-demanded,
US-enforced UN sanctions) than Saddam killed deliberately in his last
decade.
Who cares?
If you drop a bomb on someone head...is that "accidental"? It would seem to
me, about the only way it was an "accident" is if the pilot says "ops".....
.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
23 Oct 2005 01:25:47 PM |
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"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4dQ6f.2162$Jo3.2040@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:6oGdndintr9pt8beRVn-pg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:uyv6f.1956$Jo3.284@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"~ The TIKRIT TIGERS ~" <TIKRIT_TIGERS@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:1129936856.416910.211050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated.
0 WMDs.
- Do You Know Where Your Government Is? -
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better life.
Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to with Saddam in
control, because had he still been in control, a citizen of Iraq would
never know if they would end up being thrown in jail for no reason other
than they "may have" upset someone, tortured, or killed.
In what way is the Iraqi citizen's situation improved? Can you provide
a realistic overview that backs you up?
Are you going to make the argument that the people of Iraq were better off
with Saddam and his merry men in power? Are you going to make the
argument, that if democracy works in some form in Iraq, that the people in
Iraq would not be better off that they would have been when Saddam and his
merry men had remained in power? Are you going to make the argument, that
if Saddam and his ilk had remained in power and one of his two sons had
taken over, that the people in Iraq would be better off?
None of the above.
I'm going to continue expecting you to answer me.
You haven't so far.
All I said, is the people of Iraq now have a "chance" at a better life.
Whether they do indeed have a better life or not, is really in their
hands.
In what way are most Iraqis' prospects for the next decade improved?
Can you provide a realistic forecast that backs you up?
This is not rocket science. Had Saddam and his ilk remained in power, the
people of Iraq knew what kind of life they would have...their faith was in
the hands of a dictator. They now have at least a "chance" at a better
life. And that "chance" will be a reflection on how much better or worse
they plot their future
Can you show me an informed choice they've made yet about their future?
Can you show me a realistic hope that they'll get to decide anything for
themselves?
....but it will be up to them....
not some dictator...to make that choice.
Really? That's not how it's playing out... and there don't appear to be
any plans yet that could possibly produce anything but another dictatorial
regime... or perhaps a series of them punctuated with swift and violent
coups.
But apparently the only people you care about are Americans....you don't
seem to care one twit about Iraqi lives.
US and allied arms have "accidentally" killed almost as many Iraqis in
the past 2.5 years (to say nothing of how many died under US-demanded,
US-enforced UN sanctions) than Saddam killed deliberately in his last
decade.
Who cares?
If you drop a bomb on someone head...is that "accidental"? It would seem
to me, about the only way it was an "accident" is if the pilot says
"ops".....
I put the word in quotes becase *every* case of multiple "collateral damage"
gets called an accident of war, even when it is in fact a premeditated (or
at least presaged) mass murder.
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
23 Oct 2005 05:31:43 PM |
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"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:8oqdnSecgsczSMbeRVn-hg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4dQ6f.2162$Jo3.2040@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:6oGdndintr9pt8beRVn-pg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:uyv6f.1956$Jo3.284@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"~ The TIKRIT TIGERS ~" <TIKRIT_TIGERS@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:1129936856.416910.211050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated.
0 WMDs.
- Do You Know Where Your Government Is? -
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better life.
Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to with Saddam in
control, because had he still been in control, a citizen of Iraq would
never know if they would end up being thrown in jail for no reason
other than they "may have" upset someone, tortured, or killed.
In what way is the Iraqi citizen's situation improved? Can you provide
a realistic overview that backs you up?
Are you going to make the argument that the people of Iraq were better
off with Saddam and his merry men in power? Are you going to make the
argument, that if democracy works in some form in Iraq, that the people
in Iraq would not be better off that they would have been when Saddam and
his merry men had remained in power? Are you going to make the argument,
that if Saddam and his ilk had remained in power and one of his two sons
had taken over, that the people in Iraq would be better off?
None of the above.
I'm going to continue expecting you to answer me.
You haven't so far.
Unless you are god, no one can satisfy your needs, because neither you nor I
can predict what will happen in the future.
.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
23 Oct 2005 07:35:00 PM |
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"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jbU6f.2186$Jo3.2044@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:8oqdnSecgsczSMbeRVn-hg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4dQ6f.2162$Jo3.2040@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:6oGdndintr9pt8beRVn-pg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:uyv6f.1956$Jo3.284@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"~ The TIKRIT TIGERS ~" <TIKRIT_TIGERS@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:1129936856.416910.211050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated.
0 WMDs.
- Do You Know Where Your Government Is? -
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better life.
Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to with Saddam
in control, because had he still been in control, a citizen of Iraq
would never know if they would end up being thrown in jail for no
reason other than they "may have" upset someone, tortured, or killed.
In what way is the Iraqi citizen's situation improved? Can you
provide a realistic overview that backs you up?
Are you going to make the argument that the people of Iraq were better
off with Saddam and his merry men in power? Are you going to make the
argument, that if democracy works in some form in Iraq, that the people
in Iraq would not be better off that they would have been when Saddam
and his merry men had remained in power? Are you going to make the
argument, that if Saddam and his ilk had remained in power and one of
his two sons had taken over, that the people in Iraq would be better
off?
None of the above.
I'm going to continue expecting you to answer me.
You haven't so far.
Unless you are god, no one can satisfy your needs, because neither you nor
I can predict what will happen in the future.
I didn't ask that.
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 01:51:23 PM |
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"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:_9mdnWcKyKSiscHenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jbU6f.2186$Jo3.2044@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:8oqdnSecgsczSMbeRVn-hg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4dQ6f.2162$Jo3.2040@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:6oGdndintr9pt8beRVn-pg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:uyv6f.1956$Jo3.284@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"~ The TIKRIT TIGERS ~" <TIKRIT_TIGERS@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:1129936856.416910.211050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated.
0 WMDs.
- Do You Know Where Your Government Is? -
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better life.
Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to with Saddam
in control, because had he still been in control, a citizen of Iraq
would never know if they would end up being thrown in jail for no
reason other than they "may have" upset someone, tortured, or killed.
In what way is the Iraqi citizen's situation improved? Can you
provide a realistic overview that backs you up?
Are you going to make the argument that the people of Iraq were better
off with Saddam and his merry men in power? Are you going to make the
argument, that if democracy works in some form in Iraq, that the people
in Iraq would not be better off that they would have been when Saddam
and his merry men had remained in power? Are you going to make the
argument, that if Saddam and his ilk had remained in power and one of
his two sons had taken over, that the people in Iraq would be better
off?
None of the above.
I'm going to continue expecting you to answer me.
You haven't so far.
Unless you are god, no one can satisfy your needs, because neither you
nor I can predict what will happen in the future.
I didn't ask that.
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
They no longer have to worry about one of Saddam's sons, throwing them in
jail because they "felt like" doing it. They no longer have to worry about
someone in the regime, sending them to jail because they did not like the
way they acted. They do not have to worry about being tortured the way they
were tortured by the people who worked for Saddam. They no longer have to
worry about going to war with a neighboring country because their leader
"wanted" to go to war with that neighbor. They no longer have to worry
about being exterminated because Saddam wanted to punish them for acts he
did not approve of. Those who were professional soccer players no longer
have to worry about not performing up to expectations, and suffer the
consequences when one of Saddam's sons was not satisfied with their
performance. And with all the wealth the country has, they stand a better
chance of having that money spent on making their life better, rather than
Saddam spending that money building lavish palaces to satisfy his own needs.
.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 02:08:40 PM |
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Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:_9mdnWcKyKSiscHenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jbU6f.2186$Jo3.2044@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:8oqdnSecgsczSMbeRVn-hg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4dQ6f.2162$Jo3.2040@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:6oGdndintr9pt8beRVn-pg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:uyv6f.1956$Jo3.284@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"~ The TIKRIT TIGERS ~" <TIKRIT_TIGERS@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message
news:1129936856.416910.211050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated.
0 WMDs.
- Do You Know Where Your Government Is? -
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better
life. Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to
with Saddam in control, because had he still been in control, a
citizen of Iraq would never know if they would end up being
thrown in jail for no reason other than they "may have" upset
someone, tortured, or killed.
In what way is the Iraqi citizen's situation improved? Can you
provide a realistic overview that backs you up?
Are you going to make the argument that the people of Iraq were
better off with Saddam and his merry men in power? Are you going
to make the argument, that if democracy works in some form in
Iraq, that the people in Iraq would not be better off that they
would have been when Saddam and his merry men had remained in
power? Are you going to make the argument, that if Saddam and
his ilk had remained in power and one of his two sons had taken
over, that the people in Iraq would be better off?
None of the above.
I'm going to continue expecting you to answer me.
You haven't so far.
Unless you are god, no one can satisfy your needs, because neither
you nor I can predict what will happen in the future.
I didn't ask that.
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
They no longer have to worry about one of Saddam's sons, throwing
them in jail because they "felt like" doing it.
.... and they now have to worry instead about their own local officials doing
the same.
They no longer have
to worry about someone in the regime, sending them to jail because
they did not like the way they acted.
No? All that's changed in that respect is the name of the regime.
They do not have to worry
about being tortured the way they were tortured by the people who
worked for Saddam.
That's true, but they still have to worry (though considerably less so, and
I suppose that counts as "improvement" in some people's opinion) about being
tortured the way they've been tortured by Coalition (mostly US) forces and
by the various "insurgent" groups.
They no longer have to worry about going to war
with a neighboring country because their leader "wanted" to go to war
with that neighbor.
That's not true at all. As long as the US is in de-facto political control
of things there, the only thing different is the name of the leader.
They no longer have to worry about being
exterminated because Saddam wanted to punish them for acts he did not
approve of.
True. Now they have to worry about being exterminated because the
Coalition or some "insurgentroup or other disapproves.
Those who were professional soccer players no longer
have to worry about not performing up to expectations, and suffer the
consequences when one of Saddam's sons was not satisfied with their
performance.
Errrr... I did mention something about "the generic Iraqi citizen", right?
Those professional soccer players were - literally - Saddam's own (and his
family's) chosen conscripts.
And with all the wealth the country has, they stand a
better chance of having that money spent on making their life better,
That "better chance" hasn't translated yet into anything but vast
price-gouging by Coalition-approved corporations... most proceeds from which
are leaving the country as quickly as it's spent.
rather than Saddam spending that money building lavish palaces to
satisfy his own needs.
How about >$50M being paid to build a <$2M bridge... or is it OK to waste
the Iraqis' money as long as the beneficiary isn't Saddam?
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 07:20:08 PM |
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"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:aZ6dndS4naGkrMDenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@qcislands.net...
Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:_9mdnWcKyKSiscHenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jbU6f.2186$Jo3.2044@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:8oqdnSecgsczSMbeRVn-hg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4dQ6f.2162$Jo3.2040@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:6oGdndintr9pt8beRVn-pg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:uyv6f.1956$Jo3.284@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"~ The TIKRIT TIGERS ~" <TIKRIT_TIGERS@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message
news:1129936856.416910.211050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated.
0 WMDs.
- Do You Know Where Your Government Is? -
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better
life. Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to
with Saddam in control, because had he still been in control, a
citizen of Iraq would never know if they would end up being
thrown in jail for no reason other than they "may have" upset
someone, tortured, or killed.
In what way is the Iraqi citizen's situation improved? Can you
provide a realistic overview that backs you up?
Are you going to make the argument that the people of Iraq were
better off with Saddam and his merry men in power? Are you going
to make the argument, that if democracy works in some form in
Iraq, that the people in Iraq would not be better off that they
would have been when Saddam and his merry men had remained in
power? Are you going to make the argument, that if Saddam and
his ilk had remained in power and one of his two sons had taken
over, that the people in Iraq would be better off?
None of the above.
I'm going to continue expecting you to answer me.
You haven't so far.
Unless you are god, no one can satisfy your needs, because neither
you nor I can predict what will happen in the future.
I didn't ask that.
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
They no longer have to worry about one of Saddam's sons, throwing
them in jail because they "felt like" doing it.
... and they now have to worry instead about their own local officials
doing the same.
Care to cite examples?
They no longer have
to worry about someone in the regime, sending them to jail because
they did not like the way they acted.
No? All that's changed in that respect is the name of the regime.
Who in the current regime is throwing people in jail for no reason,
torturing and killing them? Have you seem pictures of any member of the
current regime shooting a prisoner? Have you seen any picutres of any
members of the current regime, throwing people off of roof tops? Has any
member of the current regime gased their own people? Any athletes who got
the current members of the regime angry that they did not perform as they
should have been killed, tortured, or imprisoned.
They do not have to worry
about being tortured the way they were tortured by the people who
worked for Saddam.
That's true, but they still have to worry (though considerably less so,
and I suppose that counts as "improvement" in some people's opinion) about
being tortured the way they've been tortured by Coalition (mostly US)
forces and by the various "insurgent" groups.
It is all a matter of scale don't you think.
They no longer have to worry about going to war
with a neighboring country because their leader "wanted" to go to war
with that neighbor.
That's not true at all. As long as the US is in de-facto political
control of things there, the only thing different is the name of the
leader.
No, the US is not about to invade another country, without jumping through
all kinds of hoops that will be well publicize, long before they attack
anyone else. We like to give the opponent ample time to prepare for the
attack, so they can mount a more effective defense.
They no longer have to worry about being
exterminated because Saddam wanted to punish them for acts he did not
approve of.
True. Now they have to worry about being exterminated because the
Coalition or some "insurgentroup or other disapproves.
Again, it is all a matter of scale and what is at stake.
Those who were professional soccer players no longer
have to worry about not performing up to expectations, and suffer the
consequences when one of Saddam's sons was not satisfied with their
performance.
Errrr... I did mention something about "the generic Iraqi citizen", right?
Those professional soccer players were - literally - Saddam's own (and his
family's) chosen conscripts.
They were still citizens of Iraq.
And with all the wealth the country has, they stand a
better chance of having that money spent on making their life better,
That "better chance" hasn't translated yet into anything but vast
price-gouging by Coalition-approved corporations... most proceeds from
which are leaving the country as quickly as it's spent.
Proof? How about a simple one, how much money is leaving the country and
how much money is coming into the country.
rather than Saddam spending that money building lavish palaces to
satisfy his own needs.
How about >$50M being paid to build a <$2M bridge... or is it OK to waste
the Iraqis' money as long as the beneficiary isn't Saddam?
A bridge can be used by everyone, a palace will be to the benefit of only a
few.
.
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| User: "R. P." |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
25 Oct 2005 12:36:52 AM |
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"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
Who in the current regime is throwing people in jail for no reason,
torturing and killing them?
Actually, just the opposite has been happening as many of the current
regime's officials and police or army recruits have been ambushed and
assasinated by the terrorists. It's amazing that given this background
anybody is still willing to enlist in this new government for service.
I have a feeling that if similar situation existed in Western countries,
not many people would be willing to take as much risk as the Iraqis. R.
P.
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| User: "gilgames" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where YourGovernment Is? |
25 Oct 2005 05:03:39 AM |
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<<
Actually, just the opposite has been happening as many of the current
regime's officials and police or army recruits have been ambushed and
assasinated by the terrorists.
Just like the terrorist Hungarian kids abushed and killed the members of
the poor Soviet army and those who were in their side.
The only problem is that many more "terrorist" are dieing than "innocent
invaders" and their cooperators.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
25 Oct 2005 01:29:41 AM |
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"R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gsKdnRVRZZHwWcDeRVn-pw@comcast.com...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
Who in the current regime is throwing people in jail for no reason,
torturing and killing them?
Actually, just the opposite has been happening as many of the current
regime's officials and police or army recruits have been ambushed and
assasinated by the terrorists.
After more than a generation of Saddam's obsession with and manipulation of
their thinking, and his preference for motivating people by fear... and now
that he's gone and a vacuum of decades of "power=fear" has been left for war
to fill... can you tell me what entity - not de jure but de facto - would
naturally represent the ordinary Iraqi's "current regime"?
It's amazing that given this background anybody is still willing to enlist
in this new government for service. I have a feeling that if similar
situation existed in Western countries, not many people would be willing
to take as much risk as the Iraqis. R. P.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 07:46:29 PM |
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Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:aZ6dndS4naGkrMDenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@qcislands.net...
Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:_9mdnWcKyKSiscHenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jbU6f.2186$Jo3.2044@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:8oqdnSecgsczSMbeRVn-hg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4dQ6f.2162$Jo3.2040@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:6oGdndintr9pt8beRVn-pg@qcislands.net...
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:uyv6f.1956$Jo3.284@tornado.socal.rr.com...
"~ The TIKRIT TIGERS ~" <TIKRIT_TIGERS@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message
news:1129936856.416910.211050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated.
0 WMDs.
- Do You Know Where Your Government Is? -
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better
life. Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to
with Saddam in control, because had he still been in control,
a citizen of Iraq would never know if they would end up being
thrown in jail for no reason other than they "may have" upset
someone, tortured, or killed.
In what way is the Iraqi citizen's situation improved? Can
you provide a realistic overview that backs you up?
Are you going to make the argument that the people of Iraq were
better off with Saddam and his merry men in power? Are you
going to make the argument, that if democracy works in some form in
Iraq, that the people in Iraq would not be better off that they
would have been when Saddam and his merry men had remained in
power? Are you going to make the argument, that if Saddam and
his ilk had remained in power and one of his two sons had taken
over, that the people in Iraq would be better off?
None of the above.
I'm going to continue expecting you to answer me.
You haven't so far.
Unless you are god, no one can satisfy your needs, because neither
you nor I can predict what will happen in the future.
I didn't ask that.
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
They no longer have to worry about one of Saddam's sons, throwing
them in jail because they "felt like" doing it.
... and they now have to worry instead about their own local
officials doing the same.
Care to cite examples?
They no longer have
to worry about someone in the regime, sending them to jail because
they did not like the way they acted.
No? All that's changed in that respect is the name of the regime.
Who in the current regime is throwing people in jail for no reason,
torturing and killing them? Have you seem pictures of any member of
the current regime shooting a prisoner? Have you seen any picutres
of any members of the current regime, throwing people off of roof
tops? Has any member of the current regime gased their own people? Any
athletes who got the current members of the regime angry that
they did not perform as they should have been killed, tortured, or
imprisoned.
They do not have to worry
about being tortured the way they were tortured by the people who
worked for Saddam.
That's true, but they still have to worry (though considerably less
so, and I suppose that counts as "improvement" in some people's
opinion) about being tortured the way they've been tortured by
Coalition (mostly US) forces and by the various "insurgent" groups.
It is all a matter of scale don't you think.
Yes, that's exactly what I think.
So, is "less torture" a real improvement... or merely a statistical one?
They no longer have to worry about going to war
with a neighboring country because their leader "wanted" to go to
war with that neighbor.
That's not true at all. As long as the US is in de-facto political
control of things there, the only thing different is the name of the
leader.
No, the US is not about to invade another country, without jumping
through all kinds of hoops that will be well publicize, long before
they attack anyone else.
You don't think Iraqi forces will be "encouraged" to help crush Iran?
We like to give the opponent ample time to
prepare for the attack, so they can mount a more effective defense.
They no longer have to worry about being
exterminated because Saddam wanted to punish them for acts he did
not approve of.
True. Now they have to worry about being exterminated because the
Coalition or some "insurgentroup or other disapproves.
Again, it is all a matter of scale and what is at stake.
A significant scale is the difference between, say, a few murders and a
holocaust. The difference between (at least possibly) a million dead by
Saddam's hand and 120,000 (and still counting with no end in sight... at
least not within this decade) dead by Coalition's hand and the hands of
Coalition-inspired insurgents is *not* significant.
Those who were professional soccer players no longer
have to worry about not performing up to expectations, and suffer
the consequences when one of Saddam's sons was not satisfied with
their performance.
Errrr... I did mention something about "the generic Iraqi citizen",
right? Those professional soccer players were - literally - Saddam's
own (and his family's) chosen conscripts.
They were still citizens of Iraq.
And with all the wealth the country has, they stand a
better chance of having that money spent on making their life
better,
That "better chance" hasn't translated yet into anything but vast
price-gouging by Coalition-approved corporations... most proceeds
from which are leaving the country as quickly as it's spent.
Proof? How about a simple one, how much money is leaving the country
and how much money is coming into the country
rather than Saddam spending that money building lavish palaces to
satisfy his own needs.
How about >$50M being paid to build a <$2M bridge... or is it OK to
waste the Iraqis' money as long as the beneficiary isn't Saddam?
A bridge can be used by everyone, a palace will be to the benefit of
only a few.
And that justifies the waste of $48M???
An Iraqi engineering firm drew up the plans and the bill of materials...
less than $2M.
An American firm was given the contract after drawing up essentially the
same plans - $50M.
Ask always: Qui bono?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 03:13:53 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:51:23 GMT, "Jerry Okamura"
<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
They no longer have to worry about one of Saddam's sons
actually that is the biggest mistake they made so far
since we are talking about a largely tribal society there
even the ones who were not engaged that far
saw the illegal killings as a spit in the face
honour and blood feud rules, just like in inner city america
the main difference being that in iraq one can't kill all,
and those people have a long memory
you'll see
btw. could you guys delete this off-topic bs. from the subject line as
far as unrelated groups are concerned?
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| User: "R. P." |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 11:37:35 AM |
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"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves who now
went to the polls second time in droves despite the threat from
terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of that?
R. P.
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| User: "gilgames" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where YourGovernment Is? |
24 Oct 2005 04:48:30 PM |
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<<
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves who now
went to the polls second time in droves despite the threat from
terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of that?
R. P.
Te new Iraqi constitution is a dirty attempt to divide Iraq. Naturaly
not for good, to privide a Kurdish state as they would deserve, but just
the dirty use of divede et imapera priciple.
Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of that?
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| User: "Kukuriku" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where YourGovernment Is? |
24 Oct 2005 11:13:29 PM |
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R. P. wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves who now
went to the polls second time in droves despite the threat from
terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of that?
R. P.
*US like to use that for propaganda, as a gretest asset for citizen to
vote, but has no healt care, jobs and being manipulated by money bags
all the time.
JS
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 12:21:37 PM |
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R. P. wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves who now
went to the polls second time in droves despite the threat from
terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of that?
R. P.
The meaning is, without doubt, that they wanted to take advantage of an
opportunity they haven't had in generations.
There isn't any meaning at all beyond that, unfortunately. Only about one
in 1000 of them had the faintest clue what they were voting for (or
against), because the "constitution" about which they were casting their
ballots was only released and published 48 hours before the vote. The vast
majority of them voted according to the (equally ignorant) opinions and
pronouncements of their mullahs, their local civic authorities and/or their
most threatening local oppressors.
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 01:53:38 PM |
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"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:qeWdnT1pmeGthcDeRVn-rQ@qcislands.net...
R. P. wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves who now
went to the polls second time in droves despite the threat from
terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of that?
R. P.
The meaning is, without doubt, that they wanted to take advantage of an
opportunity they haven't had in generations.
There isn't any meaning at all beyond that, unfortunately. Only about one
in 1000 of them had the faintest clue what they were voting for (or
against), because the "constitution" about which they were casting their
ballots was only released and published 48 hours before the vote. The
vast majority of them voted according to the (equally ignorant) opinions
and pronouncements of their mullahs, their local civic authorities and/or
their most threatening local oppressors.
At least they got a chance to make their opinion known...which is a whole
lot better than the framers of our Constitution gave those Americans who
preceded us.
.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 02:19:52 PM |
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Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:qeWdnT1pmeGthcDeRVn-rQ@qcislands.net...
R. P. wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves who
now went to the polls second time in droves despite the threat from
terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of that?
R. P.
The meaning is, without doubt, that they wanted to take advantage of
an opportunity they haven't had in generations.
There isn't any meaning at all beyond that, unfortunately. Only
about one in 1000 of them had the faintest clue what they were
voting for (or against), because the "constitution" about which they
were casting their ballots was only released and published 48 hours
before the vote. The vast majority of them voted according to the
(equally ignorant) opinions and pronouncements of their mullahs,
their local civic authorities and/or their most threatening local
oppressors.
At least they got a chance to make their opinion known...
To what end? Due to the ignorance in which they were deliberately kept,
they don't even *have* opinions... at least, not valid ones.
The entire manner in which this "constitution" (I'd call it a first-draft
discussion paper, myself) was derived, deadlined and presented was nothing
but a collossal shell game.
which is a whole lot better than the framers of our Constitution gave
those Americans who preceded us.
The framers of *your* constitution were the victors of a revolutionary war
that created a nation where only a foreign empire's branch-plant economy
previously existed.
The framers of Iraq's new "constitution" are the carrion-feeders who've
descended to feed greedily upon the still-warm carcass of a nation. Maybe
they'll avoid making nothing but a branch-plant economy out of the new
growth that will inevitably be fertilized by their dung... but I sincerely
doubt it.
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 07:29:07 PM |
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"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:rZKdnfetn8NHrsDeRVn-1w@qcislands.net...
Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:qeWdnT1pmeGthcDeRVn-rQ@qcislands.net...
R. P. wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves who
now went to the polls second time in droves despite the threat from
terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of that?
R. P.
The meaning is, without doubt, that they wanted to take advantage of
an opportunity they haven't had in generations.
There isn't any meaning at all beyond that, unfortunately. Only
about one in 1000 of them had the faintest clue what they were
voting for (or against), because the "constitution" about which they
were casting their ballots was only released and published 48 hours
before the vote. The vast majority of them voted according to the
(equally ignorant) opinions and pronouncements of their mullahs,
their local civic authorities and/or their most threatening local
oppressors.
At least they got a chance to make their opinion known...
To what end? Due to the ignorance in which they were deliberately kept,
they don't even *have* opinions... at least, not valid ones.
That is total foolishness. Of course they have opinions, just like you have
opinions. Even the dumbest person in the United States have opinions. Even
someone with a mental illness has opinions. As long as a person is alive,
and their brain is functioning, they will form opinions. And how can anyone
have an opinion that is not "valid". It would seem to me to say that
someones opinions are not valid, only means that you or I do not think they
are valid. I am pretty sure that the person who holds that opinion doesn't
believe that their opinion is "valid".
The entire manner in which this "constitution" (I'd call it a first-draft
discussion paper, myself) was derived, deadlined and presented was nothing
but a collossal shell game.
That applies to our own Constitution as well.
which is a whole lot better than the framers of our Constitution gave
those Americans who preceded us.
The framers of *your* constitution were the victors of a revolutionary war
that created a nation where only a foreign empire's branch-plant economy
previously existed.
But they did not give the citizens to that new country an opportunity to
vote to find out if the "people" thought that the Constitution was something
they approved of. At least the people of Iraq had that opportunity.
The framers of Iraq's new "constitution" are the carrion-feeders who've
descended to feed greedily upon the still-warm carcass of a nation.
Maybe they'll avoid making nothing but a branch-plant economy out of the
new growth that will inevitably be fertilized by their dung... but I
sincerely doubt it.
Yep, just like the US Constitution did not address slavery to gain the
support of the slave owners in the south. Can you just imagine what would
have happened had a few of them who approved the Constitution would have
insisted that they would not approve the Constitution if slavery was
allowed, or if woman did not have a vote....
.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 08:03:53 PM |
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Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:rZKdnfetn8NHrsDeRVn-1w@qcislands.net...
Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:qeWdnT1pmeGthcDeRVn-rQ@qcislands.net...
R. P. wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi
citizen's situation is improved.
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves who
now went to the polls second time in droves despite the threat
from terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of
that? R. P.
The meaning is, without doubt, that they wanted to take advantage
of an opportunity they haven't had in generations.
There isn't any meaning at all beyond that, unfortunately. Only
about one in 1000 of them had the faintest clue what they were
voting for (or against), because the "constitution" about which
they were casting their ballots was only released and published 48
hours before the vote. The vast majority of them voted according
to the (equally ignorant) opinions and pronouncements of their
mullahs, their local civic authorities and/or their most threatening
local
oppressors.
At least they got a chance to make their opinion known...
To what end? Due to the ignorance in which they were deliberately
kept, they don't even *have* opinions... at least, not valid ones.
That is total foolishness. Of course they have opinions, just like
you have opinions. Even the dumbest person in the United States have
opinions. Even someone with a mental illness has opinions. As long
as a person is alive, and their brain is functioning, they will form
opinions. And how can anyone have an opinion that is not "valid". It
would seem to me to say that someones opinions are not valid, only
means that you or I do not think they are valid. I am pretty sure
that the person who holds that opinion doesn't believe that their
opinion is "valid".
The entire manner in which this "constitution" (I'd call it a
first-draft discussion paper, myself) was derived, deadlined and
presented was nothing but a collossal shell game.
That applies to our own Constitution as well.
which is a whole lot better than the framers of our Constitution
gave those Americans who preceded us.
The framers of *your* constitution were the victors of a
revolutionary war that created a nation where only a foreign
empire's branch-plant economy previously existed.
But they did not give the citizens to that new country an opportunity
to vote to find out if the "people" thought that the Constitution was
something they approved of. At least the people of Iraq had that
opportunity.
Of course they did... or rather, they consulted very broadly (and not
without considerable acrimony) among those who were "citizens" according to
the prevailing custom of the day: the title-holders to large properties and
other stores/generators of great wealth.
The framers of Iraq's new "constitution" are the carrion-feeders
who've descended to feed greedily upon the still-warm carcass of a
nation. Maybe they'll avoid making nothing but a branch-plant economy out
of
the new growth that will inevitably be fertilized by their dung...
but I sincerely doubt it.
Yep, just like the US Constitution did not address slavery to gain the
support of the slave owners in the south. Can you just imagine what
would have happened had a few of them who approved the Constitution
would have insisted that they would not approve the Constitution if
slavery was allowed, or if woman did not have a vote....
Uhhhh... I certainly can.
In fact, I'd be very surprised if there was not a hell of a lot of debate
about the inconsistency of slavery with the ideals set forth in the
Preamble. I'd be equally surprised if it was not explicitly decided (in
camera, sub rosa and with many a wink-nudge-and-nod, of course) that the
issue was best ignored as too inflammatory to address, seeing not only that
Southern support would be necessary (even though rather little "South"
actually existed in 1770-1776), but also that several of the (mostly
northern) Founders *themselves* were slave-owners.
.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
25 Oct 2005 09:02:10 PM |
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"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:fNKdnWuxuPrnGcDeRVn-vQ@qcislands.net...
Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:rZKdnfetn8NHrsDeRVn-1w@qcislands.net...
Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:qeWdnT1pmeGthcDeRVn-rQ@qcislands.net...
R. P. wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi
citizen's situation is improved.
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves who
now went to the polls second time in droves despite the threat
from terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of
that? R. P.
The meaning is, without doubt, that they wanted to take advantage
of an opportunity they haven't had in generations.
There isn't any meaning at all beyond that, unfortunately. Only
about one in 1000 of them had the faintest clue what they were
voting for (or against), because the "constitution" about which
they were casting their ballots was only released and published 48
hours before the vote. The vast majority of them voted according
to the (equally ignorant) opinions and pronouncements of their
mullahs, their local civic authorities and/or their most threatening
local
oppressors.
At least they got a chance to make their opinion known...
To what end? Due to the ignorance in which they were deliberately
kept, they don't even *have* opinions... at least, not valid ones.
That is total foolishness. Of course they have opinions, just like
you have opinions. Even the dumbest person in the United States have
opinions. Even someone with a mental illness has opinions. As long
as a person is alive, and their brain is functioning, they will form
opinions. And how can anyone have an opinion that is not "valid". It
would seem to me to say that someones opinions are not valid, only
means that you or I do not think they are valid. I am pretty sure
that the person who holds that opinion doesn't believe that their
opinion is "valid".
The entire manner in which this "constitution" (I'd call it a
first-draft discussion paper, myself) was derived, deadlined and
presented was nothing but a collossal shell game.
That applies to our own Constitution as well.
which is a whole lot better than the framers of our Constitution
gave those Americans who preceded us.
The framers of *your* constitution were the victors of a
revolutionary war that created a nation where only a foreign
empire's branch-plant economy previously existed.
But they did not give the citizens to that new country an opportunity
to vote to find out if the "people" thought that the Constitution was
something they approved of. At least the people of Iraq had that
opportunity.
Of course they did... or rather, they consulted very broadly (and not
without considerable acrimony) among those who were "citizens" according
to the prevailing custom of the day: the title-holders to large properties
and other stores/generators of great wealth.
So, what you are saying is they may have consulted with some power brokers,
but they certainly did not consult with the average joe on the streets....
The framers of Iraq's new "constitution" are the carrion-feeders
who've descended to feed greedily upon the still-warm carcass of a
nation. Maybe they'll avoid making nothing but a branch-plant economy
out of
the new growth that will inevitably be fertilized by their dung...
but I sincerely doubt it.
Yep, just like the US Constitution did not address slavery to gain the
support of the slave owners in the south. Can you just imagine what
would have happened had a few of them who approved the Constitution
would have insisted that they would not approve the Constitution if
slavery was allowed, or if woman did not have a vote....
Uhhhh... I certainly can.
In fact, I'd be very surprised if there was not a hell of a lot of debate
about the inconsistency of slavery with the ideals set forth in the
Preamble. I'd be equally surprised if it was not explicitly decided (in
camera, sub rosa and with many a wink-nudge-and-nod, of course) that the
issue was best ignored as too inflammatory to address, seeing not only
that Southern support would be necessary (even though rather little
"South" actually existed in 1770-1776), but also that several of the
(mostly northern) Founders *themselves* were slave-owners.
No debate at all. Read you history.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
25 Oct 2005 09:38:50 PM |
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Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:fNKdnWuxuPrnGcDeRVn-vQ@qcislands.net...
Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:rZKdnfetn8NHrsDeRVn-1w@qcislands.net...
Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:qeWdnT1pmeGthcDeRVn-rQ@qcislands.net...
R. P. wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi
citizen's situation is improved.
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves
who now went to the polls second time in droves despite the
threat from terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning
of
that? R. P.
The meaning is, without doubt, that they wanted to take advantage
of an opportunity they haven't had in generations.
There isn't any meaning at all beyond that, unfortunately. Only
about one in 1000 of them had the faintest clue what they were
voting for (or against), because the "constitution" about which
they were casting their ballots was only released and published
48 hours before the vote. The vast majority of them voted
according to the (equally ignorant) opinions and pronouncements of
their
mullahs, their local civic authorities and/or their most
threatening local
oppressors.
At least they got a chance to make their opinion known...
To what end? Due to the ignorance in which they were deliberately
kept, they don't even *have* opinions... at least, not valid ones.
That is total foolishness. Of course they have opinions, just like
you have opinions. Even the dumbest person in the United States
have opinions. Even someone with a mental illness has opinions. As long
as a person is alive, and their brain is functioning, they will form
opinions. And how can anyone have an opinion that is not "valid".
It would seem to me to say that someones opinions are not valid,
only means that you or I do not think they are valid. I am pretty sure
that the person who holds that opinion doesn't believe that their
opinion is "valid".
The entire manner in which this "constitution" (I'd call it a
first-draft discussion paper, myself) was derived, deadlined and
presented was nothing but a collossal shell game.
That applies to our own Constitution as well.
which is a whole lot better than the framers of our Constitution
gave those Americans who preceded us.
The framers of *your* constitution were the victors of a
revolutionary war that created a nation where only a foreign
empire's branch-plant economy previously existed.
But they did not give the citizens to that new country an
opportunity to vote to find out if the "people" thought that the
Constitution
was something they approved of. At least the people of Iraq had
that opportunity.
Of course they did... or rather, they consulted very broadly (and not
without considerable acrimony) among those who were "citizens"
according to the prevailing custom of the day: the title-holders to
large properties and other stores/generators of great wealth.
So, what you are saying is they may have consulted with some power
brokers, but they certainly did not consult with the average joe on
the streets....
Precisely.
Of course, you have to remember the customs of the time.
The average Joe on the streets didn't even *remotely qualify for the title
"citizen" until quite a while after the constitution was finalized.
The framers of Iraq's new "constitution" are the carrion-feeders
who've descended to feed greedily upon the still-warm carcass of a
nation. Maybe they'll avoid making nothing but a branch-plant
economy out of
the new growth that will inevitably be fertilized by their dung...
but I sincerely doubt it.
Yep, just like the US Constitution did not address slavery to gain
the support of the slave owners in the south. Can you just imagine
what would have happened had a few of them who approved the
Constitution would have insisted that they would not approve the
Constitution if slavery was allowed, or if woman did not have a
vote....
Uhhhh... I certainly can.
In fact, I'd be very surprised if there was not a hell of a lot of
debate about the inconsistency of slavery with the ideals set forth
in the Preamble. I'd be equally surprised if it was not explicitly
decided (in camera, sub rosa and with many a wink-nudge-and-nod, of
course) that the issue was best ignored as too inflammatory to
address, seeing not only that Southern support would be necessary
(even though rather little "South" actually existed in 1770-1776),
but also that several of the (mostly northern) Founders *themselves*
were slave-owners.
No debate at all. Read you history.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
26 Oct 2005 11:39:06 AM |
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"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:U9mdnYlHN4vYccPeRVn-hQ@qcislands.net...
Jerry Okamura wrote:
But they did not give the citizens to that new country an
opportunity to vote to find out if the "people" thought that the
Constitution
was something they approved of. At least the people of Iraq had
that opportunity.
Of course they did... or rather, they consulted very broadly (and not
without considerable acrimony) among those who were "citizens"
according to the prevailing custom of the day: the title-holders to
large properties and other stores/generators of great wealth.
So, what you are saying is they may have consulted with some power
brokers, but they certainly did not consult with the average joe on
the streets....
Precisely.
Of course, you have to remember the customs of the time.
Regardless of what reason you want to give, the simple fact is, in Iraq the
"people" had a chance to decide whether they agreed with the framers of
their Constitution, whereas the "people" had no say in accepting or
rejecting our Constitution.
The average Joe on the streets didn't even *remotely qualify for the title
"citizen" until quite a while after the constitution was finalized.
What is a "citizen"? How does one become a "citizen"?
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 08:10:47 PM |
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Jerry Okamura wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote in message
news:rZKdnfetn8NHrsDeRVn-1w@qcislands.net...
At least they got a chance to make their opinion known...
To what end? Due to the ignorance in which they were deliberately
kept, they don't even *have* opinions... at least, not valid ones.
That is total foolishness. Of course they have opinions, just like
you have opinions. Even the dumbest person in the United States have
opinions. Even someone with a mental illness has opinions. As long
as a person is alive, and their brain is functioning, they will form
opinions. And how can anyone have an opinion that is not "valid". It
would seem to me to say that someones opinions are not valid, only
means that you or I do not think they are valid. I am pretty sure
that the person who holds that opinion doesn't believe that their
opinion is "valid".
I'm sorry... I missed addressing this.
By "opinion" I meant "informed opinion"... and by "valid", I meant "founded
on fact and on *knowledge* of fact, not founded merely on hearsay". I
suppose I should have used a convoluted and multi-hyphenated adjective
instead. Mea culpa. :-)
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| User: "R. P." |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 07:19:22 PM |
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"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
The meaning is, without doubt, that they wanted to take advantage of
an opportunity they haven't had in generations.
An opportunity provided by guess who ...
There isn't any meaning at all beyond that, unfortunately. Only about
one in 1000 of them had the faintest clue what they were voting for
(or against), because the "constitution" about which they were casting
their ballots was only released and published 48 hours before the
vote. The vast majority of them voted according to the (equally
ignorant) opinions and pronouncements of their mullahs, their local
civic authorities and/or their most threatening local oppressors.
From the large turnout, despite the risk of taking it, proves that
they knew quite well what they were voting for. Why else would they
have risked it? If despite of this there were many voters who did not
really know what the issues were, how is that different from US
elections? :-( R.P.
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| User: "Time Traveler" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
24 Oct 2005 12:46:22 PM |
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For some reason, on Monday 24 October 2005 10:21, Michael said:
R. P. wrote:
"Michael" <muirhead@haidagwaii.net> wrote:
I asked you to detail the ways in which the generic Iraqi citizen's
situation is improved.
Why don't you ask that question from the Iraqis themselves who now
went to the polls second time in droves despite the threat from
terrorists? Are you too dense to decipher the meaning of that?
R. P.
The meaning is, without doubt, that they wanted to take advantage of an
opportunity they haven't had in generations.
There isn't any meaning at all beyond that, unfortunately. Only about one
in 1000 of them had the faintest clue what they were voting for (or
against), because the "constitution" about which they were casting their
ballots was only released and published 48 hours before the vote. The
vast majority of them voted according to the (equally ignorant) opinions
and pronouncements of their mullahs, their local civic authorities and/or
their most threatening local oppressors.
Sounds like how things go over here on this continent. :-/
--
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| | | | '_ ` _ \ / _ \ | || '__/ _` \ \ / / _ \ |/ _ \ '__|
| | | | | | | | | __/ | || | | (_| |\ V / __/ | __/ |
|_| |_|_| |_| |_|\___| |_||_| \__,_| \_/ \___|_|\___|_|
Where words fail, music speaks.
- Hans Christian Andersen
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| User: "R. P." |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
22 Oct 2005 01:41:50 PM |
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"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better life.
Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to with Saddam
in control, because had he still been in control, a citizen of Iraq
would never know if they would end up being thrown in jail for no
reason other than they "may have" upset someone, tortured, or killed.
But apparently the only people you care about are Americans....you
don't seem to care one twit about Iraqi lives.
You've been too nice to that islamofascist jerk. The real oil
nazies are those Arab sheiks and their fellow cohorts in OPEC who set
the oil prices sky high and then blame the Western oil companies for it
without whose drilling efforts most of them would still be living
nomadic existence as camel jockeys. R. P.
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| User: "szaki" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where YourGovernment Is? |
22 Oct 2005 09:39:31 PM |
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R. P. wrote:
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better life.
Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to with Saddam
in control, because had he still been in control, a citizen of Iraq
would never know if they would end up being thrown in jail for no
reason other than they "may have" upset someone, tortured, or killed.
But apparently the only people you care about are Americans....you
don't seem to care one twit about Iraqi lives.
You've been too nice to that islamofascist jerk. The real oil nazies
are those Arab sheiks and their fellow cohorts in OPEC who set the oil
prices sky high and then blame the Western oil companies for it without
whose drilling efforts most of them would still be living nomadic
existence as camel jockeys. R. P.
*Bull *****! Arabs never blamed US oil companies for the price of oil.
You are lying.
OPEC raised the price of oil, because the US stiff support for Israel ,
resistance and militaristic attitude toward Arab countries.
US buys gasoline from the world market, only some 40% oil gets refine
here in the country.
That's why the Kuwait ambassador said: Pumping out more oil to stabilize
prices is no use for the US, because they can't refine it any way, don't
have the capacity.
Higher oil prices is the cause of increased world wide demand, mostly
China increased used for oil, since they entered the market economy.
Also, the Iraqi war panicked the market.
JS
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: 1,993 Oil Nazis Terminated - 0 WMDs - Do You Know Where Your Government Is? |
23 Oct 2005 12:48:02 PM |
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"szaki" <szaki10@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8JGdnYsQOcB1asfeRVn-iA@comcast.com...
R. P. wrote:
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
Yes, trying to give the people of Iraq a chance at a better life.
Certainly a better life that they had to look forward to with Saddam in
control, because had he still been in control, a citizen of Iraq would
never know if they would end up being thrown in jail for no reason other
than they "may have" upset someone, tortured, or killed. But apparently
the only people you care about are Americans....you don't seem to care
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