"Kel" <ostermanuk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
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"Kel" <ostermanuk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
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"Kel" <ostermanuk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
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"Kel" <ostermanuk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
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Basically, are you a team or are you all individuals?

Individuals.

What is a team but a group of individuals? Do they share one mind
or one stomach? One person cannot have a "right" to another
person's property. As soon as you base a right based upon the
taking of a right from another person, it ceases to be a right.

The American right's obsession with individualism goes against the
very fabric of human nature.

"Humans are born in groups, raised in groups, work in groups, play
in groups, defend their interests in groups, and die in groups.
These groups are organized, specialized, interdependent, and greater
than the sum of their parts.

Human beings almost never live outside groups, and if they do, it is
usually only briefly. True hermitism is extremely rare.

In a similar manner, there is evidence that human beings are
genetically wired for social behavior. It is natural for humans to
become lonely when separated for long from the group, and to yearn
for the friendship and interaction of others."

How does that support the claim that one person has a "right" to
another person's property?

I don't quite know what you are saying. What person has a right to
who's property? Please explain.

Aren't you the one claiming that the people of New Orleans have a right
to my tax dollars because a hurricane came through their city?

Oh yes, that's me alright. Sorry your use of the word property made me
think you were referring to housing.

The people of New Orleans have also paid taxes as did the citizens of
New York. Had various goverments used the tax paid by all Americans to
fix the levees perhaps the bill would not now be so large.

It's not the responsibility of the federal government to fix the levees in
New Orleans.

"Kel" <ostermanuk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
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"Irie" <Irie@IrieEpistemology.com> wrote in message
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"Kel" <ostermanuk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
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"whome?" <whome@beets.crib.com> wrote in message
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Kel wrote:

The American right's obsession with individualism goes against the
very fabric of human nature.

Total BS.

"Humans are born in groups,

nope, one at a time unless they are twins.

raised in groups,

Home schooling?

work in groups,

sometimes.

play in groups, defend their interests in groups,

not always

and die in groups.

only under govt. guns or natural disasters.

These groups

are organized, specialized, interdependent, and greater than the sum
of their parts.

Only when they are voluntary groups.

Human beings almost never live outside groups, and if they do, it is
usually only briefly. True hermitism is extremely rare.

Because people choose to interact that way, until some gang of thugs
takes the choice away.

In a similar manner, there is evidence that human beings are
genetically wired for social behavior. It is natural for humans to
become lonely when separated for long from the group, and to yearn
for the friendship and interaction of others."

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-nosociety.htm

The key thing you seem to be lacking is a valuation of free choice /
free will in these situations. Either we as individuals have free
will or we don't. If we don't, we aren't individuals, we are slaves
to the collective. Is that how you truly wish to be? Not me fella.

No, we do live collectively by our own free will.

So what happens when someone disagrees?

I suppose they buy a house in the middle of nowhere and become a recluse.

So the only choice is to conform or be excluded from all of society.

you use force to make people conform? What if he or she does not want to
pay for the welfare system you advocate. Do they have that option?

We choose to live together, to play together, to party together, to
form groups together. To form agreed ways of behaving towards each
other through laws.

Well, no *****. Governments are formed to protect the rights of
individuals. Their rights, Kel. To grant someone a right at the expense
of anther person's right is to negate the right. This is why Jefferson
said in the US Constitution, "We hold these truths to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator
with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and
the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are
instituted among Men"

"Unalienable rights". Let's look at that word, "unalienable":

"Not to be separated, given away, or taken away; inalienable"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=unalienable%20

This is why, in the US, it is unconstitutional for one person to possess
a right and another person not. Rights have to be universal and
individual. To say "individual rights" is to be repetitive. All rights
are of the individual.

Laws are created to protect rights. Everyone's rights. And everyone
has a right to judge how to use their own personal property.

Far right wing rubbish. The government have used the personal property of
many Americans to invade Iraq. What right did those Americans have who
disagreed with that war to "judge how to use their own personal
property"?

This is exactly right. We do not have a choice. You may not want to fund
your country's involvement in Iraq, I may not want to fund the welfare
state. Why would you advocate for more of a bad thing?

This right wing notion of individualism is what is wrong. Very few of
us choose to live as hermits and very few of us would like to live in a
new frontier style state where the individual gets to do what he wants
and the largest rules the rst of us. Most of want to live with order
which is why collectively we have got together and made the rules.

So you cannot imagine a society of individuals? You really should get
out more, Kel.

Are you an American? Yeah? Then you are part of a group.

Yes, voluntarily. I could emigrate nearly anywhere in the world. What
you advocate is forced involvement in a group, simply because you agree
with the group.