On 16 Oct 2001 12:50:40 -0700,
"MheathXX" <mheath22@excite.com> wrote:
IMPORTANT NOTE TO THE READERS --
This is a RESOURCE post, refreshed at regular intervals.
It begins with a debate, the purpose of which is to
*exemplify* just HOW misinformed Anti-Choicers tend to be.
Some are more ignorant or misinformed than others... but in
light of the OVERWHELMING facts that prove the *extent*
to which they are wrong, my own well-founded and fact-based
opinion is that they ALL demonstrate elements of ignorance to
SOME degree, and being ill-informed (or obtuse, take your
choice) is one of their common denominators. Along with
EASILY-exposed busybodyism and control-freakishness.
FOLLOWING the discussion is a series of RESOURCES
which can be brought to bear by intelligent and FAIR-minded
people to mount effective opposition to the agendas of the
Anti-Choicers, and the cult of the Religious Radical Right.
Thus enabling us to both preserve and improve our invividual
freedoms and rights.
THEREFORE -- The post seems very lengthy. But in
actuality, you may print it out and make use of it however you
wish. And/or save itto your hard drive and draw upon its facts
whenever you wish, tomake arguments and engage in active
opposition to those who haveNO regard for any of our liberties
which they happen, selfishly, to disagree with.
The initial post of this thread will be regularly refreshed, so as
to be readily available on all servers, most of the time, in
these relevant newsgroups. Thus, as new lurkers, fence-sitters,
and even new regulars come along, this material will be right at
their fingertips. (Current regulars are invited to do so, as well,
of course.)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
A human being is aborted in an abortion. There is no doubt
in a Christian's mind.
MOST Christians are INTELLIGENT people. Not to be
confused with the incredibly-ignorant PSEUDO-Christians and
deluded Christians who comprise the RRR Cult: The Religious
Radical Right. (Who make up 2%, at most, of those who say
they are Christians.)
Thus, MOST Christians are PRO-Choice.
(Two-thirds of Americans are Pro-Choice, and 83% of Americans
are Christians. Do the math. And several major Christian
denominations have formally DECLARED themselves to be
Pro-Choice.)
Ignorant persons such as Chilton, Krisbam and the Freedom Fighter
try in vain to argue the their is no such human in the womb.
You just claimed that "a human being is aborted in an abortion."
So you're right. We are VERY aware that there is NO "such"
human in the womb. That's because human ENTITIES exist in the
womb -- but not "human beings." "Human being" is a term that
society applies to PEOPLE. And all *people* have been BORN.
"Human being" is NOT a scientific or medical term.
EVERY living entity that possesses *human* DNA is *human.*
(Notice -- if you have sufficient intelligence for that... since not
many people who are ignorant enough to BE Anti-Choice do --
that "human" in this case is an ADJECTIVE.)
Thus -- ALL of the following are human ENTITIES: sperm, ova,
zygotes, embryoes, fetuses, ||| babies/infants, toddlers, children,
adolescents, and adults. The entities that come AFTER the "|||"
symbol are defensible, according to BOTH the laws of the USA,
AND the Bible. The ones listed BEFORE that symbol are NOT.
They say that it is merely a gloob of glop.
That is a blatant LIE, so you have absolutely NO credibilty.
Which is TYPICAL of those who are mean-spirited and ignorant
enough to BE Anti-Choicers. Anti-Choicers actively seek to impose
IMMENSE hardship upon no fewer than tens of MILLIONS
of women by FORCING childbirth upon them. AGAINST their will.
Resulting in the DENIAL of their rights... their RELEGATION to
second-class-citizen status... their INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE to
mere, NON-sentient developing entities which are, in all important
ways, equivalent to sperm and ova (human, unique, NON-sentient,
a stage of development without which NO births would occur --
and alive); entities which the WOMEN would very properly, under
the circumstances, regard to be parasitic. Further manifestations of
that hardship would be the DISRUPTION of their well-being, both
short-term and long-term (as in, for decades or a lifetime)... and the
DESTRUCTION of countless of their opportunities.
Thus -- most Anti-Choicers are basically mindless.
They support abortions of any kind. Even up to 8 months I presume
which is absolutely sickening and disheartening. They make guys out
like me to be women haters and unChristian.
If the shoe fits, wear it! That's a pretty GOOD decription of those
of your selfish and mean-spirited ilk.
MOST Pro-Choicers DO support most abortions. But we do so
in the AWARENESS of these facts:
(1) According to JAMA, fully 99.9996% of ALL abortions
performed in the USA have BEEN performed. Leaving
only a mere 500 to 600 cases in the third trimester.
(And chances are excellent that almost all of THOSE
are in the 7th month -- NOT the 8th or 9th month.)
(2) Women aren't stupid enough to wait until the third
trimester to have ELECTIVE abortions. Thus, the
above-mentioned 500 to 600 cases probably ALL are
done as a result of medical exigencies.
It has been proven that even as early at 3 months or so that
the baby has brain waves, responds to voices, and can experience
pain. They are human and deserve to live like you and me.
First of all, there are no *babies* IN wombs, nor have there EVER
been. Zygotes, embryoes, and fetuses, yes. Babies (ALL of which
have been BORN), no.
Secondly, it has been determined by medical science beyond
all possibility of doubt that brain architecture is insufficient for
conscious awareness prior to AT LEAST the 6th month of gestation,
and the probability is high that it isn't even possible until the 7th.
And NO conscious awareness means NO perception of pain.
The fetal "kicks" that pregnant women feel between 4-1/2
months of gestation and the sixth (and possibly 7th) month are
ALL unconscious REFLEXIVE actions.
No different that one sees when applying electrodes to the
legs of a DEAD frog.
And the entities within the reproductive process don't "deserve"
ANYTHING, whether they be sperm, ova, zygotes, embryoes, or
fetuses. Except in your imagination.
Can we stop the woman from aborting? NO. That is what is completely
misunderstood. We cannot force a woman to do anything against her
will. That is what freedom of choice truly is. Or being pro choice.
The FIRST intelligent thing you've said in this post. And that is
just the way it ALWAYS will be. Most Americans have NO desire to
interfere with anyone's access to safe and legal abortion-on-request.
But the bottom line, is, is it right? NO.
BACK onto your ignorance track. THAT didn't last long.
Absolutely not and any woman that thinks so will pay a
huge price.
Well, $200-300 IS a bit inconvenient, but hardly a "huge" price.
And with luck, her boyfriend will pay that, or at least split the fee
with her.
As for being right -- sure. Just as "right" as it is to take an
aspirin, or avail one's self of any other remedy.
Unless they confess their sins.
Now you're off-topic. If you want to discuss sinful things, you
need to take it to a different thread or newsgroup. UNLESS, of
course, you are referring to the very SERIOUS sinfulness that *you*
commit by seeking to impose immense hardship and misery upon
tens of millions of people. Now THAT is SINFUL!
Chilton, Krisbam and others are selfish and try to justify murder
and killing as something that must be done.
Abject ignorance is your long suit, isn't it?
Murder is applicable ONLY to PEOPLE. All of whom have been
born. Abortion is merely a highly valuable and beneficial REMEDY
which has enabled more than 30 million American women since 1973
to safely and legally put their lives BACK on track, and RESTORE all
of their well-being and future opportunities to PRE-ill-timed-pregnancy
levels. Which YOU, "sweetheart' that you are, would viciously and
hatefully have DENIED to them.
Want to see a SELFISH person? Just look in any mirror.
They say that the Bible doesnt speak of abortion or that God only
speaks of humans after they are born, but there are many instances
in the Bible where the womb is spoken of and the joy that is in that
mother's belly.
The Bible NEVER condemns, nor even so much as MENTIONS
abortion. Which speaks VOLUMES. Here's why:
[ I ] God DOES make it clear when various human behaviors or
actions are displeasing to Him. The Old Testament even
contains literally HUNDREDS of those. (I've heard that
there are over 600 such admonitions.) All the way down
to and including things that are as innocuous as fortune-
telling! But there is NO mention of abortion. Even though:
(A) Abortion was widely-practiced WELL before Christ
was born. For at LEAST 1,000 years, by that time,
historical and archeological records have proven.
And probably significantly longer. (So abortion
was NOT omitted due to its not yet being practiced
beck then. It WAS.) (In those days, abortions
typically were effected via abortifacients.)
(B) Because God is omniscient, and can see ANY age
from His vantage point in eternity as clearly as we
can see through an open window, He certainly was
fully aware of OUR age during the time He inspired
the writers of the books of the Bible. Ample proof
of this can be seen in The Revelation. The writer
of that book, John, was either transported TO the
End-Time era, where he witnessed those events
first-hand. Or else he was shown a very clear
vision of all of that. But EITHER way, God could
clearly see that age. And THUS, He was JUST as
capable of seeing OUR age.
And in any given 18-year-long period in OUR age,
fully ONE BILLION (that's 1,000,000,000) abortions
are performed, worldwide. The rate is 57,000,000
per year.
And yet ---
(1) NOWHERE in the Bible did God permit or
inject ANY criticism of abortion.
(2) Obviously, abortion can very REASONABLY
be seen as something that God regards to be
of LESS concern to Him that fortune-telling.
Or -- more likely -- of NO concern to Him at
all. A NON-issue for Him. (Which is very
logical, since it's a win-win situation, all
the way around):
(a) Abortion affects NON-sentient entities
that are the equivalent, in all import-
ant ways, to sperm and ova... which
ALSO are human and live *potential*
people. When aborted, they don't
care one whit -- any more than sperm
and ova do when THEY die.
(b) In his omniscience, God knew,
trillions of years beforehand, just
WHICH of those *potential* people
would be born, and which would
not. So -- if He chooses to give
souls to any or all of those, they
are immediately GUARANTEED of
eternal life in heaven. And if NOT,
then it is no different that if the
sperm and egg, in each of those
cases, had never met in the first
place.
BTW -- women who are carrying to term BY CHOICE are usually
VERY joyful. It is important to remember that PRO-Choicers support the
right of all women to choose EITHER carrying-to-term OR abortion,
EQUALLY. Anti-Choicer hatefully portray us as supporting ONLY abortion.
Wrong. There is nothing wrong with either choice, and we support the
woman's right to choose either option, FREE of any and all interference.
But since abortion is the ONLY option that currently is being attacked by
a minority collection of hateful and ignorant LOONS, abortion is the ONLY
option that needs to be DEFENDED.
They can't understand the general meaning of the bible which
speaks of compassion, morality, and ultimately sacrifice as the keys
to good, moral living and the way to get to heaven through Jesus Christ.
Christian PRO-Choicers understand ALL of that VERY well.
But YOU obviously do not.
You function by your OWN very IMmoral code of hateful imposition and
control, even though this would result in causing immense hardship to
tens of millions of people. You represent the very ANTITHESIS of what
Jesus commanded His followers to be when He told us to show
love and compassion to our neighbors.
Anti-Choicers and RRR cultists generally are brainwashed automatons
when it comes to any and all FACTS which conflict
with their programming. Totally impervious, and totally unwilling to
recognize the many proofs of how wrong they are -- or even to
QUESTION the false dogma that they've absorbed like sponges.
For example -- show me an RRR cultist who would ever DARE
to ask THIS question... and I'll show you a *UNIQUE* RRR cultist.
(I have NEVER seen one who would ask THIS question... much
less accept the answer to it):
"WHERE in the Bible is there ANY passage or verse that
either authorizes or even encourages ANY believer to act
as an ENFORCER of its precepts upon society as a whole?"
ANSWER:
"Nowhere. The closest that the Bible comes to that is
with regard to its teachings about CHURCH discipline.
Which applies ONLY to the interaction of Christian believers
with OTHER Christian believers. NOT upon society in general.
And ESPECIALLY, it is even MORE ludicrous (and utterly mindless!) to
try to repressively IMPOSE restrictions upon people with respect to
things that the Bible never deals with AT ALL -- such as abortion.
For the benefit of those who ARE interested in the actual FACTS
pertaining to abortion, the following FIVE blocks of information will
provide you with a LOT of ammunition to use against the hateful
agenda of Anti-Choice, and/or the RRR cultists (who often are the
SAME people):
[ 1 ]
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=== OUTLINE ===
ANALYZING ABORTION-ON-REQUEST* in the USA
*(Abortion Rights as they have existed since 1-22-73)
Abortion terminates entities (z/e/fs: zygotes, embryoes &
fetuses, up until the 7th month of gestation) which have ALL
of these characteristics in common with sperm and ova:
-- Human
-- Unique
-- As a stage of development, indispensible to future birth
-- Have NEVER experienced conscious awareness
-- Alive
And the Bible, which is the primary moral authority for the
majority of Americans
-- In NO way condemns abortion
-- Doesn't even MENTION abortion
-- By Jesus' day, abortion had been around for 1,000 yrs.
-- Contains NO defenses of s/o/z/e/fs
-- Reserves ALL of its protection for already-BORN people
-- That the Bible regards personhood to begin at BIRTH is
made clear by it's immense emphasis on the importance
of BIRTH order, and BIRTHrights.
-- In certain cases, condemned BABIES to horrible deaths
-- Never indicates that there is anything "special" about
fertilization
-- Thus making z/e/f and sperm & ova of EQUAL worth
Abortion-on-request enables women to:
-- Put their lives back on track immediately
-- Restore their well-being to pre-unplanned pregnancy levels
-- Vast majority of women are happy with this decision
-- Most women have no regrets
-- Restore their full range of future opportunities
-- Avoid physical difficulties of a 9-month pregnancy
-- Especially important for young girls, ~12-16
-- Statistically 6-10 times safer than carrying-to-term
-- Avoid the trauma of adopting-out, and wondering later
-- Avoid possibility of changing mind about adopting-out
-- Reduce likelihood of long-term economic deprivation
-- Avoid bringing child into less-loving home
-- Avoid bringing child into unstable environment
-- Wait until timing is better before having children
-- Who then are MORE likely to be loved
-- Who then are MORE likely to be in stable home
-- And thus are LESS like to have troubled childhoods
-- And therefore more likely NOT to become criminals
-- And thus are MORE likely to become successful
Legal abortion-on-request:
-- Is exponentially safer than illegal abortions
-- Thus saving the lives of hundreds or thousands of women/yr.
-- Has been available throughout the USA since early 1973
-- Between 1973 and 2000, 30 million women have had them
-- Between 1973 and 2000, 40 million abortions have been done
Other related facts include:
-- MOST women who have abortions go on to HAVE kids later,
when the timing is better
-- Those children would NOT have been born if the abortions
had not taken place earlier, because the same sperm and
ova would not have matched up.
-- Those "2nd-round" kids STARTED reaching age 13 in
significant numbers by 1988. By the early 1990s, millions
of those "2nd-round" kids were in their mid-teens by the
early 1990s.
-- Mid-teens is the highest risk age for crime, and this
continues into the early 20s.
-- As pointed out above, wanted and loved children are
LESS prone to criminal behavior.
-- By 1995, millions of "2nd-round kids" were entering the
workforce. Perhaps a million-plus MORE have entered it
every year SINCE. By 2000, the oldest ones had reached
the age where they could be getting quite successful.
-- Since the early 1990s, the rate of violent crime in the USA
has declined dramatically, and by 2000 was at 40-year
lows in many categories.
-- The decade of the 1990s, and the year 2000 to date, in
the USA, has been the most economically-dynamic of
any nation in the entire history of the world.
Although the exact figures may be impossible to derive, the
probability that abortion-on-request has SIGNIFICANTLY benefitted
all of America's society in terms of the crime rate and the economy
is QUITE strong. And a strong U.S. economy benefits the entire
world.
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[ II ]
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
PREFACE -- The following 8/27/2000 ABC News story...
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Record Drop in Violent Crime
W A S H I N G T O N, Aug. 27 -- Violent crime dropped
for the sixth straight year in 1999, taking overall crime rates to
their lowest in 27 years, the U.S. Justice Department said today.
The Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics said the total
number of non-lethal violent crimes, which includes rape,
robbery and assault, fell by more than 10 percent in 1999 from
the year before, a record one-year drop, according to the
bureau’s National Crime Victimization Survey.
Today’s report confirmed the overall drop in crime
across the country has continued.
Property crime also fell 9 percent, led by a drop in
burglaries and household thefts, continuing its downward
trend from 1974.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
ABORTION'S GREAT FRINGE BENEFIT!
WHY is America doing so fabulously well, lately, with an unheard-of
economy? There are MANY interacting factors. But one factor that
CAN'T HURT is THIS one: In tens of millions of cases over the last
27 years, children have NOT been born into hardship in such great
numbers as would have occurred without Roe vs. Wade, and a higher
percentage of children HAVE been born into loving, and stable homes.
That cannot have helped but to have been of HUGE benefit to society,
in terms of productivity and as a major contributor to the steeply-
declining crime rate, as more and more of those WANTED children (who
replaced the UNwanted ones who would otherwise have been born)
have been reaching adulthood and entering the workforce. Can I
PROVE that? No. I don't know how we could generate such
statistics. But common sense tells us that this MUST be so. To what
degree, we don't know. But ANY degree is worthwhile and beneficial.
God never gave the SLIGHTEST indication that abortion was wrong,
or that we couldn't make such reproductive decisions. He DID give us
brains, though, presumably with some expectation that we would use
them intelligently within the parameters that He DID establish for us.
We've been doing just that. And there's no reason to change it.
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[ III ]
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PRO-Choice vis-a-vis Education & Success:
DIRECTLY Proportional !!
It's been well documented that there's a very STRONG positive
correlation between acceptance of abortion, and level of education
achieved. ALSO, between level of income and acceptance of abortion.
This has been borne out by many polls, but one of the more recent is
one conducted in 1998 by The Detroit News:
http://www.detnews.com/1998/metrox/roevwade2/2polls/2polls.htm
Comparison is made between two extremes, for these two variables:
Those who believe that (1) "abortion should be legal only to save the
life of the mother," and (2) "abortion should be legal for any reason
in the first three months."
INCOME: (1) (2)
Under $15k/yr. 25% 25%
$15-45k/yr. 24% 28%
$45-60k/yr. 11% 35%
$60k & over/yr. 17% 44%
EDUCATION: (1) (2)
No Diploma 43.6% 20.5%
High School Grad. 21.2% 26.9%
College Graduates 17.7% 41.5%
It is very interesting that -- consistently, in reliable polls --
we see that the better people are educated, or the more successful
they are, the more accepting of virtually-unrestricted abortion they
become.
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[ IV ]
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
UNDERSTANDING "FUNDIES"
There are two types of "fundies" in Christianity:
(1) NON-impositional fundamentalists who take most
of the Bible literally (i.e., all but the parts that are
clearly meant to be allegorical, or are likely so.) They
tend to be pretty well-versed, and thus knows what
the Bible contains... and what it does NOT contain.
For example, they know that it does NOT contain
so much as one word against abortion. And they
know that it does NOT contain ANY passage that
appoints ANYONE to be the ENFORCERS of its
precepts.
And they know that it DOES contain a COMMAND
by Jesus to His followers that they show love and
compassion to their neighbors. A command that is
second ONLY to the command that they FIRST love
God. This is a *clear* command, oft-repeated.
(Gal. 5:14, Matt. 22:37-40, Mark 12:31, Gal. 6:2,
Romans 13:8, and 13:9-10.)
Such fundamentalists usually live quiet and normal
lives, and are non-judgmental, fair-minded, and tolerant
people who mind their own business when it comes
to the private affairs of others. Almost never will a
buttinsky, busybody, or control freak be found among
them.
(2) The RRR Cultist, pseudo-Christian "fundie." This
denizen of the Religious Radical Right is a deluded
Christian at best, and *literally* a PSEUDO-Christian
at worst. They tend to be relatively uneducated when
compared to the general population. And their
seduction into this cult that infiltrates churches and
leaves its adherents in place *within* those churches,
was usually easily-accomplished, because the false
dogmas of the cult have great appeal to them. They
first are conned into thinking that abortion is wrong,
which is no big trick because it once was a topic
that (unfortunately) had a bad rep in society... back
when it was still illegal in most places, and women
were getting "back-alley" ones.
Many, if not most, of these "fundies" are quite
insecure people in their own lives, and the notion
that they can *control* people appeals to them, even
if only at the subconscious level. In fact, in most
such cases, it is *probably* at the subconscious level.
They are usually NOT particularly well-versed in the
Bible, but sometimes *seem* to be to others because
they've done a good job of learning the verses that
SEEM to be supportive of their deviant agenda (even
though NO passage actually DOES support them).
In other words, they practice "cafeteria theology" and
IGNORE passages that *condemn* their actions (such
as those cited above). It's pretty hard to seek to
impose immense hardship upon tens of millions of
women by denying the remedy of abortion to them,
which would disrupt their well-being and trash countless
of their future opportunities... WHILE claiming to show
love and compasion to their neighbors. And they are
so totally programmed that they would not THINK of
questioning their leaders regarding the false dogmas
of the RRR Cult. E.g., one will *never* be seen
asking James Dobson, D. James Kennedy, or Jerry
Falwell (to name 3 of the 8 or so leaders)... "WHERE
does the Bible instruct us, or authorize us, to attempt
to ENFORCE its precepts upon society?" That is
totally alien to the brainwashed and programmed
nature of cultists, and you'll never see it happen.
The pseudo-Christian "fundies" of the RRR Cult
are very destructive to Christianity as a whole, because
even though they comprise less than 2% of America's
Christians (and practically none of those in the rest of
the world), they cloak themselves in the mantle of
Christianity, and their high-profile antics and protesta-
tions give the false impression to much of society that
they are REPRESENTATIVE of Christians. While
nothing could be farther than the truth. 98% of U.S.
Christians BEHAVE in the manner of the TRUE
Christian "fundies" in part (1), above, even though
most of them are mainstream Christians and not
"fundies." SO -- Christianity is getting a VERY unfair
bad rap as a result of that growing misperception.
The RRR Cult "fundies," then, are dysfunctional,
control-freakish busybodies. Whether there's such
a thing as a "Buttinsky Gene," are whether its due
to ignorance, gullibility, or both, is immaterial. Their
agenda is sociopathic and their behavior is most
assuredly UN-Christian.
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[ V ]
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=== PREDICTION ===
ABORTION in AMERICA -- 10 or 15 Years from Now
"In the 1960s, zealots of the VERY SAME ilk as what's left of the
ranks of today's Anti-Choicers were screaming bloody murder about
the advent and availability of the birth-control Pill. It's around 35
years later, now, and most people have FORGOTTEN about them.
Heck, most people have even forgotten the cruel prejudices of
the segregationists in the South of merely 40 years ago. TODAY,
for anyone to openly admit to being either a segregationist or an
opponent of the Pill would be tantamount to being in line for
coronation with a crown that says "LOON" in huge, golden letters
in the front of it. Society has outgrown such people, and left them
behind. Probably, most such people have outgrown such prejudices
and views, too. Those who remain are smart enough to keep their
mouths shut, so that people won't know what they really are like.
"Anti-Choice has been in steady decline since its heyday in
Wichita in 1991. Only a year or two later, they were practically
run out of Buffalo on a rail by the mayor and its citizens, barely
escaping the tar and feathers. The movement hasn't been the
same since, and most of those in our society who didn't regard
them to be intolerant louts back then are feeling more and more
that way about them, now. Interestingly, the biggest NON-event
of 2001 may well be the Anti-Choicers' attempt to stage a 10th
Anniversary comeback in Wichita, in July. Americans simply
IGNORED them. MOST Americans have already outgrown
intolerance, and reject it out of hand, or simply ignore it altogether...
wanting nothing to do with it. It's only a matter of time before
Anti-Choice becomes a little-remembered chapter
in the dusty history books. And left behind as an issue forever,
just as Anti-Pill activism and Segregation have been left behind...
forever.
"Thus, by 2010-2015 or so, I predict that there will be relatively
few Anti-Choicers left... and that those who remain will be keeping
their mouths shut to avoid the embarassment of being regarded as
looney-tunes by their peers. The ultra-sociopaths who may be
violent today will probably be either dead, locked up, or into some
other issue (such as harassing gays; that seems to be the next
battleground for loons of that ilk) by then.
"And abortion will be a routine and non-controversial remedy, just
as the Pill today is a non-controversial preventative. For as I said
before about curing unwanted pregnacies and headaches, a few
years from now... 'Best of all, there will be NO significance (other
than relief) attached to EITHER cure.' "
Prediction Originally Written on November 6, 1999
(Updated on August 30, 2001)
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-- Craig Chilton
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