| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"Papa Jack" |
| Date: |
22 Apr 2004 05:23:52 PM |
| Object: |
SBA List Reviews Polls |
The Susan B. Anthony List provides a comprehensive review of
recent nationwide polls related to abortion. Go to:
http://www.sba-list.org/index.cfm/section/whatsnew/page/polls08072003.html
For example:
************************************************************
December 2003 - Zogby Survey Poll:
Do you agree with the statement "Abortion destroys a human
life and is manslaughter?"
Yes................... 52%
No................... 36%
Undecided............ 12%
************************************************************
January 2003 CNN/USA Today
"Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances,
legal under most circumstances, legal under a few circumstances,
or illegal in all circumstances?"
Legal in a few circumstances ............. 42%
Illegal in all circumstances ............. 18%
Always legal ............................. 24%
Legal in most circumstances .............. 14%
************************************************************
December 2003 Wirthlin Poll.
"Which one of the following statements most closely describes
your own position on the issue of abortion? Abortions should:"
Never be legal ..................... 12%
Be legal when the life of
the mother is in danger ............ 18%
Be legal when the life of the
mother is in danger or in
cases of rape or incest ............ 32%
------
Pro-Life 62%
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Legal for any reason in first
3 months ........................... 22%
Legal for any reason in first
6 months ........................... 3%
Legal for any reason at any
time ............................... 10%
------
Pro-Choice 35%
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Unsure ............................ 3%
************************************************************
June 2003 Center for the Advancement of Women
"Do you believe that abortion should be generally available
to those that want it or that is should be allowed on in the
cases of rape, incest or when the life of the mother is in
danger or not at all."
Available with exceptions or not at all .... 51%
Generally available .........................30%
************************************************************
July 2003 - FOX NEWS
"Once a woman is pregnant, do you believe the unborn
baby or fetus should have all the same rights as a
newborn baby?"
Yes ................ 58%
No ................. 26%
Maybe .............. 16%
************************************************************
There are other poll results on the SBA List URL
given above.
All clearly demonstrate Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today.
.
|
|
| User: "Shawn Hearn" |
|
| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
22 Apr 2004 08:58:21 PM |
|
|
In article <6f9e1b49.0404221423.44c7ccf5@posting.google.com>,
(Papa Jack) wrote:
All clearly demonstrate Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today.
Which is all irrelevant. A woman's rights are not subject to the whims
of polsters and those they pol.
.
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|
| User: "Paul Anderson" |
|
| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
22 Apr 2004 10:06:01 PM |
|
|
On 22 Apr 2004 15:23:52 -0700, (Papa Jack) wrote:
.....
Do you agree with the statement "Abortion destroys a human
life and is manslaughter?"
Yes................... 52%
.....
"Do you think abortions should be legal...
Legal in a few circumstances ............. 42%
Illegal in all circumstances ............. 18%
Always legal ............................. 24%
Legal in most circumstances .............. 14%
.....
All clearly demonstrate Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today.
These two clearly demonstrate the worthlessness of these polls. The
first shows that 52 percent agree that abortion is manslaughter. The
second shows that 80 percent think that abortion should be legal, at
least in some circumstances.
This means that a *minimum* of 32% of Americans feel that
*manslaughter* should be legal, at least in some circumstances. Not
Excusable or Justifible -- Legal!
Either these polls are bogus, over half of the "Pro-Lifers" feel that
*homicide* should be legal.
Personally, I don't think that the vast majority of Pro-Lifers feel
that homicide should be legal. YMMV.
.
|
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|
| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
|
| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
22 Apr 2004 09:29:03 PM |
|
|
Papa Jack wrote:
The Susan B. Anthony List...
....a politically extreme right-wing group that seeks nothing more than
an outright ban on all forms of abortion, everywhere...
provides a comprehensive review of
recent nationwide polls related to abortion.
It isn't a comprehensive review. The polls weren't even comprehensive.
Go to:
http://www.sba-list.org/index.cfm/section/whatsnew/page/polls08072003.html
All clearly demonstrate Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today.
The most people they asked in any one of those useless polls is 3,330,
and those were women only.
Do you honestly believe that the opinions of 1000 people gives an
accurate reflection of the opinions of 300,000,000? Of course you'll say
yes, because the polls agree with you. So, do you think that the Bengals
will win the Super Bowl this year? I'm sure we could get a "random"
sampling of 1,000 Ohio football fans to say yes, so I guess every
football fan in country thinks the Bengals are a shoe-in, eh?
When are you going to learn?
.
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|
| User: "Bert Bishop" |
|
| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
23 Apr 2004 09:23:00 AM |
|
|
Frank Dwyer wrote:
Papa Jack wrote:
The Susan B. Anthony List...
...a politically extreme right-wing group that seeks nothing more than
an outright ban on all forms of abortion, everywhere...
provides a comprehensive review of
recent nationwide polls related to abortion.
It isn't a comprehensive review. The polls weren't even comprehensive.
Go to:
http://www.sba-list.org/index.cfm/section/whatsnew/page/polls08072003.html
All clearly demonstrate Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today.
The most people they asked in any one of those useless polls is 3,330,
and those were women only.
Do you honestly believe that the opinions of 1000 people gives an
accurate reflection of the opinions of 300,000,000? Of course you'll say
yes, because the polls agree with you. So, do you think that the Bengals
will win the Super Bowl this year? I'm sure we could get a "random"
sampling of 1,000 Ohio football fans to say yes, so I guess every
football fan in country thinks the Bengals are a shoe-in, eh?
When are you going to learn?
This response betrays an ignorance of statistical and polling
procedures. And most people don't really have a good understanding of
of statistics so its not big deal.
If, and its a big if, the sample is chosen correctly, a poll of 1000
people can accurately (depending on your definition of accurately, but
to within 3 or 4 % of the true value 95% of the time) reflect the
opinions of 300,000,000. The problem here is not polling. And to some
extent the results are interesting. But the results, as the SBA list
shows -- and Paul Anderson alludes to on another post in this thread --
depend on how the question is asked.
But, on the question of abortion, if one looks at all the polls there
are two things that they show clearly. Polls that ask the same question
from time to time can show movement in the public attitudes. There is
little chance that the way the question is posed will have an effect on
changes from time to time using the same wording. And the direction
among the American public is toward the "pro-life" point of view as two
polls below show.
The second thing the polls show -- again Paul Anderson's post emphasizes
this -- is that the people in the middle of the pro-life - pro-choice
continuum are conflicted. The SBA polls are propagandistically
cherry-picked to show the public to be more "pro-life" than they really
are. Missing from the ones Papa Jack Posted are ones such as:
--- Poll 1 ----
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations
of Peter Hart (D) and Robert Teeter (R). Nov. 8-10, 2003. N=1,003 adults
nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.
"Which of the following best represents your views about abortion? The
choice on abortion should be left up to the woman and her doctor.
Abortion should be legal only in cases in which pregnancy results from
rape or incest or when the life of the woman is at risk. OR, Abortion
should be illegal in all circumstances."
Woman and Rape,Incest, Always Not
Doctor Life of Woman Illegal Sure
% % % %
11/03 53 29 15 3
1/03 59 29 9 3
1/97 60 26 11 3
8/96 56 30 12 2
3/96 56 31 10 3
12/95 60 28 10 2
7/91 60 31 8 1
6/91 57 36 7 -
7/90 57 33 8 2
--- End Poll 1 ----
--- Poll 2 ---
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. July 15-16, 2003. N=900 registered
voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.
.
"On the issue of abortion, would you say you are more pro-life or more
pro-choice?"
Pro-choice Pro-life Both/Mix(vol.) NotSure
% % % %
7/03 44 44 6 6
4/03 49 41 5 5
1/02 47 41 5 7
1/01 47 42 7 4
7/00 54 38 5 3
1/00 43 44 8 5
6/99 42 44 9 5
--- end of Poll 2 ---
I think that these polls contradict Papa Jack's assertion that
"Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today". Clearly, too many Americans are conflicted on the
question for there to be a clear majority on this issue either way.
.
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| User: "Papa Jack" |
|
| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
23 Apr 2004 07:40:11 PM |
|
|
Bert Bishop <bert_bishop@eudroamail.com> wrote in message
news:<408926C4.3C24F68D@eudroamail.com>...
Frank Dwyer wrote:
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
===========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
The Susan B. Anthony List...
===========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
...a politically extreme right-wing group that seeks
nothing more than an outright ban on all forms of
abortion, everywhere...
===========================================================================
Papa Jack countered:
So? What about the polls quoted:
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
Do you really believe all these are "extreme
right-wing group(s)."
===========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
...provides a comprehensive review of...
===========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
It isn't a comprehensive review. The polls weren't even
comprehensive.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack asked:
Huh?
===========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
recent nationwide polls related to abortion. Go to:
http://www.sba-list.org/index.cfm/section/whatsnew/page/polls08072003.html
For example:
************************************************************
December 2003 - Zogby Survey Poll:
Do you agree with the statement "Abortion destroys a human
life and is manslaughter?"
Yes................... 52%
No................... 36%
Undecided....... 12%
************************************************************
January 2003 CNN/USA Today
"Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances,
legal under most circumstances, legal under a few circumstances,
or illegal in all circumstances?"
Legal in a few circumstances ............. 42%
Illegal in all circumstances ............. 18%
Always legal ............................. 24%
Legal in most circumstances .............. 14%
************************************************************
December 2003 Wirthlin Poll.
"Which one of the following statements most closely describes
your own position on the issue of abortion? Abortions should:"
Never be legal ..................... 12%
Be legal when the life of
the mother is in danger ............ 18%
Be legal when the life of the
mother is in danger or in
cases of rape or incest ............ 32%
------
Pro-Life 62%
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Legal for any reason in first
3 months ........................... 22%
Legal for any reason in first
6 months ........................... 3%
Legal for any reason at any
time ............................... 10%
------
Pro-Choice 35%
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Unsure ............................ 3%
************************************************************
[Big snip of other polls]
===========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
All clearly demonstrate Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today.
===========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
The most people they asked in any one of those useless polls is 3,330,
and those were women only.
Do you honestly believe that the opinions of 1000 people gives an
accurate reflection of the opinions of 300,000,000? Of course you'll say
yes, because the polls agree with you. So, do you think that the Bengals
will win the Super Bowl this year? I'm sure we could get a "random"
sampling of 1,000 Ohio football fans to say yes, so I guess every
football fan in country thinks the Bengals are a shoe-in, eh?
When are you going to learn?
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
This response betrays an ignorance of statistical and
polling procedures. And most people don't really have
a good understanding of statistics so its not big
deal.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
Yep, it does betray an ignorance of statistical and
polling procedures. I agree.
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
If, and its a big if, the sample is chosen correctly,
a poll of 1000 people can accurately (depending on
your definition of accurately, but to within 3 or 4%
of the true value 95% of the time) reflect the
opinions of 300,000,000.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
Look at the polling organizations cited. Do you
really think there's a "Big if?"
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
The problem here is not polling. And to some extent
the results are interesting. But the results, as the
SBA list shows -- and Paul Anderson alludes to on
another post in this thread -- depend on how the
question is asked.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
I agree. A good example is Poll 1 (NBC News/Wall Street Journal
Poll) you cited below. The Pro-Abortion crowd learned years ago
that the wording "should be left up to the woman and her doctor"
makes respondents go all "mushy." They apparently picture a preg-
nant woman talking to the nice old gray-headed, bespectacled family
doctor who was offering pearls of wisdom. The reality, of course,
is the pregnant woman seldom sees the abortionist until he walks in
the room to perform the abortion.
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
But, on the question of abortion, if one looks at all the polls there
are two things that they show clearly. Polls that ask the same question
from time to time can show movement in the public attitudes. There is
little chance that the way the question is posed will have an effect on
changes from time to time using the same wording. And the direction
among the American public is toward the "pro-life" point of view as two
polls below show.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack asked:
Bert, are you really saying the only polls which are to
be taken serious are those which have asked the same
question for year after year?
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
The second thing the polls show -- again Paul Anderson's post emphasizes
this -- is that the people in the middle of the pro-life - pro-choice
continuum are conflicted....
===========================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
Of course they're conflicted. This is one of the most controversial
topics of modern times.
Let's be honest, a substantial percentage of the population try to
NOT think about abortion and abortion issues. It's unpleasant,
it's disturbing, it's complex -- better to just not think about it.
This group often gives conflicting replies to polls because they
feel conflicted.
However, when forced to actually look at the issues -- rather
than the Pro-Abort euphemisms like "choice" -- a majority
of the "in-the-middle" types are surprised to find they support
the MODERATE Pro-Life position, i.e., abortion should be
LIMITED.
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
...The SBA polls are propagandistically cherry-picked to show
the public to be more "pro-life" than they really are....
===========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Look at the list of who conducted the SBA polls:
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
How about the Center for the Advance of Women poll?
Do you really believe a poll done by that organization
was Pro-Life? Faye Wattleton is the president of the
Center. From 1978 to 1992, she was president of the
Planned Parenthood. Would you describe that as
"cherry-picked."
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
...Missing from the ones Papa Jack Posted are ones such as:
--- Poll 1 ----
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations
of Peter Hart (D) and Robert Teeter (R). Nov. 8-10, 2003. N=1,003 adults
nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
I tried to go to the home page for this organization, but it froze my
computer twice. Wonder why?
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
"Which of the following best represents your views about abortion? The
choice on abortion should be left up to the woman and her doctor.
Abortion should be legal only in cases in which pregnancy results from
rape or incest or when the life of the woman is at risk. OR, Abortion
should be illegal in all circumstances."
Woman and Rape,Incest, Always Not
Doctor Life of Woman Illegal Sure
% % % %
11/03 53 29 15 3
1/03 59 29 9 3
1/97 60 26 11 3
8/96 56 30 12 2
3/96 56 31 10 3
12/95 60 28 10 2
7/91 60 31 8 1
6/91 57 36 7 -
7/90 57 33 8 2
--- End Poll 1 ----
===========================================================================
Papa Jack responded:
See my comments above.
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
--- Poll 2 ---
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. July 15-16, 2003. N=900 registered
voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"On the issue of abortion, would you say you are more pro-life or more
pro-choice?"
Pro-choice Pro-life Both/Mix(vol.) NotSure
% % % %
7/03 44 44 6 6
4/03 49 41 5 5
1/02 47 41 5 7
1/01 47 42 7 4
7/00 54 38 5 3
1/00 43 44 8 5
6/99 42 44 9 5
--- end of Poll 2 ---
I think that these polls contradict Papa Jack's assertion that
"Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today". Clearly, too many Americans are conflicted on the
question for there to be a clear majority on this issue either way.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
I disagree. When I look at both the numbers and quality
of the polls which show Pro-Life positions in the majority,
I am convinced.
Is it still close? Yep, and it probably will be for years.
That simply shows the job ahead -- education all those
middle-of-the-road folks about the true evils of abortion.
.
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| User: "Shawn Hearn" |
|
| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
24 Apr 2004 07:58:40 AM |
|
|
In article <6f9e1b49.0404231640.6912e0e3@posting.google.com>,
(Papa Jack) wrote:
Bert Bishop <bert_bishop@eudroamail.com> wrote in message
news:<408926C4.3C24F68D@eudroamail.com>...
Frank Dwyer wrote:
(Papa Jack) wrote:
===========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
The Susan B. Anthony List...
===========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
...a politically extreme right-wing group that seeks
nothing more than an outright ban on all forms of
abortion, everywhere...
===========================================================================
Papa Jack countered:
So? What about the polls quoted:
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
Do you really believe all these are "extreme
right-wing group(s)."
===========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
...provides a comprehensive review of...
===========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
It isn't a comprehensive review. The polls weren't even
comprehensive.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack asked:
Huh?
===========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
recent nationwide polls related to abortion. Go to:
http://www.sba-list.org/index.cfm/section/whatsnew/page/polls08072003.html
For example:
************************************************************
December 2003 - Zogby Survey Poll:
Do you agree with the statement "Abortion destroys a human
life and is manslaughter?"
Yes................... 52%
No................... 36%
Undecided....... 12%
************************************************************
January 2003 CNN/USA Today
"Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances,
legal under most circumstances, legal under a few circumstances,
or illegal in all circumstances?"
Legal in a few circumstances ............. 42%
Illegal in all circumstances ............. 18%
Always legal ............................. 24%
Legal in most circumstances .............. 14%
************************************************************
December 2003 Wirthlin Poll.
"Which one of the following statements most closely describes
your own position on the issue of abortion? Abortions should:"
Never be legal ..................... 12%
Be legal when the life of
the mother is in danger ............ 18%
Be legal when the life of the
mother is in danger or in
cases of rape or incest ............ 32%
------
Pro-Life 62%
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Legal for any reason in first
3 months ........................... 22%
Legal for any reason in first
6 months ........................... 3%
Legal for any reason at any
time ............................... 10%
------
Pro-Choice 35%
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Unsure ............................ 3%
************************************************************
[Big snip of other polls]
===========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
All clearly demonstrate Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today.
===========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
The most people they asked in any one of those useless polls is 3,330,
and those were women only.
Do you honestly believe that the opinions of 1000 people gives an
accurate reflection of the opinions of 300,000,000? Of course you'll say
yes, because the polls agree with you. So, do you think that the Bengals
will win the Super Bowl this year? I'm sure we could get a "random"
sampling of 1,000 Ohio football fans to say yes, so I guess every
football fan in country thinks the Bengals are a shoe-in, eh?
When are you going to learn?
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
This response betrays an ignorance of statistical and
polling procedures. And most people don't really have
a good understanding of statistics so its not big
deal.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
Yep, it does betray an ignorance of statistical and
polling procedures. I agree.
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
If, and its a big if, the sample is chosen correctly,
a poll of 1000 people can accurately (depending on
your definition of accurately, but to within 3 or 4%
of the true value 95% of the time) reflect the
opinions of 300,000,000.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
Look at the polling organizations cited. Do you
really think there's a "Big if?"
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
Zogby certainly is very conservative. Among people who developing
surveying methods, Zogby's methods are typically viewed as a joke.
The SBA group can also easily cherry pick little factoids from the
polls done by anyone to support its anti-abortion stance. For example,
did the SBA say anything about http://www.gallup.com/content/?ci=11461
which shows that although Americans are sharply divided on the issue
of abortion, 48% do not consider abortion as murder and only 17% of
those polled feel that abortion should be illegal? According to this
Gallup poll, which is very current, 37% say that anti-abortion laws
should be more strict, but 40% support no change in current laws.
The fact is that the SBA is clearly spinning an issue on which
Americans are divided into a story in which a vast number of people
support its pro-slavery views. The only real polls that matter are
those that are cast on election day in voting booths across this
great country.
.
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| User: "Papa Jack" |
|
| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
25 Apr 2004 06:09:15 PM |
|
|
Shawn Hearn <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<srhi-1BDDE2.08584024042004@news-60.giganews.com>...
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
Bert Bishop <bert_bishop@eudroamail.com> wrote:
Frank Dwyer wrote:
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
===========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
The Susan B. Anthony List provides a comprehensive review of
recent nationwide polls related to abortion. Go to:
http://www.sba-list.org/index.cfm/section/whatsnew/page/polls08072003.html
For example:
************************************************************
December 2003 - Zogby Survey Poll:
Do you agree with the statement "Abortion destroys a human
life and is manslaughter?"
Yes................... 52%
No................... 36%
Undecided............ 12%
************************************************************
===========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
...a politically extreme right-wing group that seeks
nothing more than an outright ban on all forms of
abortion, everywhere...
===========================================================================
Papa Jack countered:
So? What about the polls quoted:
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
Do you really believe all these are "extreme
right-wing group(s)."
===========================================================================
[BIG SNIP]
************************************************************
December 2003 ? Wirthlin Poll.
"Which one of the following statements most closely describes
your own position on the issue of abortion? Abortions should:"
Never be legal ..................... 12%
Be legal when the life of
the mother is in danger ............ 18%
Be legal when the life of the
mother is in danger or in
cases of rape or incest ............ 32%
------
Pro-Life 62%
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Legal for any reason in first
3 months ........................... 22%
Legal for any reason in first
6 months ........................... 3%
Legal for any reason at any
time ............................... 10%
------
Pro-Choice 35%
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Unsure ............................ 3%
************************************************************
[Big snip]
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
If, and its a big if, the sample is chosen correctly,
a poll of 1000 people can accurately (depending on
your definition of accurately, but to within 3 or 4%
of the true value 95% of the time) reflect the
opinions of 300,000,000.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
Look at the polling organizations cited. Do you
really think there's a "Big if?"
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
===========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
Zogby certainly is very conservative. Among people who
developing [sic] surveying methods, Zogby's methods are
typically viewed as a joke.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack countered:
I've not heard that, Shawn. Can you support that opinion,
or do you just expect us to take your word for it?
===========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
The SBA group can also easily cherry pick little factoids
from the polls done by anyone to support its anti-abortion
stance.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
But, do you have any evidence that they did so --
or are you just blowing smoke at us? The list of
polls offered is pretty big -- and includes most
of the big names in the polling business.
IOW, I think the SBA group is offering a lot more
than just "little factoids."
===========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
For example, did the SBA say anything about
http://www.gallup.com/content/?ci=11461
===========================================================================
Papa Jack
The Gallup article was posted April 23 -- two days
ago. It's hardly reasonable to expect the SBA
article to have included polls posted AFTER their
article was made available.
===========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
...which shows that although Americans are sharply
divided on the issue of abortion, 48% do not consider
abortion as murder...
===========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Shawn, I read that article twice and couldn't find
any such statistic there -- or any discussion on
the topic of whether folks consider abortion to be
"murder."
Can you guide me to where you found that particular stat?
===========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
...and only 17% of those polled feel that abortion
should be illegal? According to this Gallup poll,
which is very current, 37% say that anti-abortion
laws should be more strict, but 40% support no
change in current laws.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack corrected:
Here's what the poll actually said, Shawn.
Abortion should be:
40% ...Legal ONLY in a few circumstances.
17% ...Illegal in all circumstances
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
14% ...Legal in most circumstances
26% ...Legal in any circumstances
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
3% ...No opinion
Notice that 57% of the respondents believe abortion
should be either made ILLEGAL in ALL circumstances
or made LEGAL in only a few circumstances -- while
only 40% believe abortion should be legal in most
or in all circumstances.
Typically, from other polls I've read, those "few
circumstances" tend to be rape, incest or grave
threat to the life of the mother.
Among those who consider themselves Pro-Choice, a
substantial number would limit abortions after the
first trimester.
===========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
The fact is that the SBA is clearly spinning an
issue...
===========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Not really, Shawn. The SBA List is a conservative
group who support the Pro-Life point of view. They
make no secret of that. However, there is no need
to "spin" the truth here because the truth is on the
Pro-Life side of the debate in recent polls.
===========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
...on which Americans are divided into a story
in which a vast number of people support its pro-
slavery views....
===========================================================================
Papa Jack stated:
"Pro-slavery views?" Now you show your true colors,
Shawn.
What is "Pro-Slavery" about opposing the unnecessary
mass slaughter of millions of unborn children?
You're starting to sound like Ray. 8^)
===========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
...The only real polls that matter are those that
are cast on election day in voting booths across
this great country.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
The elections are important, Shawn, but as you
know their are many, many more factors involved
in electing the President and Congress than the
abortion issues.
Thanks for considering my point of view.
.
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| User: "Bert Bishop" |
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| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
28 Apr 2004 09:20:28 AM |
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Papa Jack wrote:
Shawn Hearn <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
(...)
===========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
...and only 17% of those polled feel that abortion
should be illegal? According to this Gallup poll,
which is very current, 37% say that anti-abortion
laws should be more strict, but 40% support no
change in current laws.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack corrected:
Here's what the poll actually said, Shawn.
Abortion should be:
40% ...Legal ONLY in a few circumstances.
17% ...Illegal in all circumstances
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
14% ...Legal in most circumstances
26% ...Legal in any circumstances
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
3% ...No opinion
Notice that 57% of the respondents believe abortion
should be either made ILLEGAL in ALL circumstances
or made LEGAL in only a few circumstances -- while
only 40% believe abortion should be legal in most
or in all circumstances.
As Papa Jack say the poll reports that 57% of the respondenents believe
abortion should be either be made illegal in all circumstances or made
legal in only a few circumstances. On another question 60% say that
abortion laws should be less strict or remain as they are and, as Shawn
reported correctly, only "37% say that anti-abortion laws should be more
strict. Both of these questions come from the same poll! That means
that 17% describe the ideal abortion laws as being more strict than they
currently are and also don't want the current laws to change! I don't
see how you can get to the postion you describe as desireable by
changing the current situaltion which is not desireable. And yet 1 in 6
people in the poll gave these strange answers. Claiming a majority in
such a situation is fatuous. A bit like building ones house on a bed of
sand. (Pro-choice people have been guilty of majority claim far more
than the pro-life people have -- do we have to copy each other's worst
habbits?)
(...)
.
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| User: "Papa Jack" |
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| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
27 Apr 2004 05:13:27 PM |
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Shawn Hearn <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<srhi-1BDDE2.08584024042004@news-60.giganews.com>...
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
Bert Bishop <bert_bishop@eudroamail.com> wrote:
Frank Dwyer wrote:
papajack@stic.net (Papa Jack) wrote:
===========================================================================
Papa Jack cited:
The Susan B. Anthony List...
===========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
...a politically extreme right-wing group that seeks
nothing more than an outright ban on all forms of
abortion, everywhere...
===========================================================================
Papa Jack countered:
So? What about the polls quoted:
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
Do you really believe all these are "extreme
right-wing group(s)."
===========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
...provides a comprehensive review of...
===========================================================================
Frank Dwyer wrote:
It isn't a comprehensive review. The polls weren't even
comprehensive.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack asked:
Huh?
===========================================================================
Papa Jack wrote:
recent nationwide polls related to abortion. Go to:
http://www.sba-list.org/index.cfm/section/whatsnew/page/polls08072003.html
For example:
************************************************************
December 2003 - Zogby Survey Poll:
Do you agree with the statement "Abortion destroys a human
life and is manslaughter?"
Yes................... 52%
No................... 36%
Undecided....... 12%
************************************************************
===========================================================================
[SNIP]
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
Look at the polling organizations cited. Do you
really think there's a "Big if?"
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
===========================================================================
Shawn Hearn wrote:
Zogby certainly is very conservative. Among people who
developing surveying methods, Zogby's methods are typic-
ally viewed as a joke. The SBA group can also easily
cherry pick little factoids from the polls done by anyone
to support its anti-abortion stance....
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
Here's an interesting article from the Zogby site:
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Released: February 09, 2003
John Zogby's Response to The American Prospect
I am writing this in reference to the article John Zogby's Creative
Polls: And a Closer Look at His Methods (American Prospect, February
2003).
The article suggests that I have allowed my company and its employees
to be used by clients to frame questions favorable to their ends and
that I have not always disclosed who my clients are.
The article mentions a question we asked a few years ago about whether
or not some welfare mothers should be sterilized. Someone actually
paid for that question, but I personally chose to release the response
because I thought it revealed a certain meanness in the American
public. I chose of my free will to release the result as a Zogby Poll.
I took credit for the formulation of the questions (which I did) and
for the results (which were ugly, but accurate).
In another example, the article chastises me for not revealing that
Associated Television News, owned and run by conservative consultant
Brad O'Leary, paid for the series of polls we conducted in 1999 and
2000. Under my agreement with O'Leary, I released the results as a
Zogby Poll, then he released them the next day with full credit given
to his organization. The fact is that O'Leary and I had spent hours
arguing over wording of questions and in every instance, I not only
sought balance in the wording, but won the arguments.
Then the article switches gears away from the charge that I am a shill
for conservatives and suggests that I "brazenly" polled for the
Democratic challenger to conservative House Majority Leader Tom DeLay.
I did indeed. This past election cycle, I polled for several
Democrats, several prominent Republicans, and an Independent
gubernatorial candidate in New York. In 18 years of polling, I have
always worked vigorously to maintain a balance in my clientele. I am
an independent pollster. The fact that I am praised and condemned by
all sides suggests that I have been successful in not being controlled
by any faction or party.
The article betrays a real ignorance of what polling is all about. We
are not merely polling fleeting positions on various issues. Instead,
we are trying to probe core values among voters. These are always
complex and unpredictable. Thus, the same person (and collective) can
believe that a partial birth abortion is manslaughter and, at the same
time, defend a woman's right to choose an abortion. When we poll for
clients, we obviously cannot ask all of the detailed ramifications of
all issues in a finite number of questions. All we can do is show that
under certain circumstances, and in response to specific wording, a
certain response will be obtained. Thus, if the group we poll for
wants to use that argument to persuade people over to its side, that
is very legitimate. With the obvious understanding that the group's
opponents might also be able to use a different wording and a
competing value to win support of the same electorate.
This is the case in an example cited in the article: work that we have
done for the CATO Institute on privatization of Social Security. We
have been polling this for years before, during, and after our CATO
work and there is not a doubt in my mind that at least a plurality
(at times a majority) of voters prefers some form of partial
privatization. This is especially true among younger voters. It is
equally true during times when the stock market is in the tank as when
it is high. Voters prefer choice, it is a value, it is as American as
apple pie. The plan raised by George W. Bush in 2000 was particularly
appealing because it kept the present system intact for older
Americans and offered a limited choice for younger voters. It is
equally true that when Al Gore challenged the 2% withdrawal from the
current withholding and charged that the Bush plan would bankrupt the
present system, that Bush was unable to answer the charge adequately.
But that does not take away from the fact that voters support the
concept of choice and some form of private security accounts.
Liberal groups can present their case and can win it. Indeed, they
have. But I stand by our polling as accurate, balanced, and fair. Let
those who poll for the other side raise their argument.
We are engaged in a complicated field, the study of public opinion. We
at Zogby International do it professionally, carefully, rigorously,
and (above all) ethically. Please don't think for a moment that I am
engaged in an ideological struggle to prove any point at all. Just
good polling, just the facts. I get bashed from all sides and that
suits me fine (because they all refer to me as "the respected
pollster" when the results agree with them).
I have always insisted on the highest standards, thus the reason for
my company's substantial growth in income, employees, and reputation
over the last decade. I have always insisted on the best practices as
defined by the World Association for Public Opinion Research (of which
I am a member) and the National Council on Public Polls (of which I am
not a member). Thus, we always release a statement on our methodology,
timing, and poll sponsorship. Zogby International's many affiliations
with some of this country's best institutions of higher learning
attest to our practices.
It is certainly easier to go after a pollster when mistakes are made.
This past election cycle was not my finest hour. We polled 20 states
and got 15 right. I made no excuses and immediately conducted a
thorough internal audit of what went wrong in the five states. I
reported our findings to the author of the article but I guess that
didn't make the final cut.
On the other hand, I was the only pollster to call the 1996 election
to the percent (which won me enemies from the left) and in the 2000
election, I was one of two to see Gore go into the lead at the very
end (which won me enemies on the right). Add to these many, many more
near perfect election calls in many states and in countries like
Canada, Mexico, Israel, and Iran which no one else got.
I must be doing something right. Or should I say "correct"? Or, hmmm,
is it "politically correct?"
Meanwhile, business continues to grow
.
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| User: "Bert Bishop" |
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| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
27 Apr 2004 08:24:06 AM |
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Papa Jack wrote:
Bert Bishop <bert_bishop@eudroamail.com> wrote in message
(...)
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
If, and its a big if, the sample is chosen correctly,
a poll of 1000 people can accurately (depending on
your definition of accurately, but to within 3 or 4%
of the true value 95% of the time) reflect the
opinions of 300,000,000.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
Look at the polling organizations cited. Do you
really think there's a "Big if?"
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
Yes, I do. Zogby aside the organizations listed above don't do polls.
They pay for polls done by others. Both the organizations listed above
and those they pay are reputable. But there are problems with the
polling organizations' samples. They certainly don't get a complete
sampling frame, even the census doesn't count several million Americans
and they spend a great deal more money. Then, on top of an imperfect
sampling frame there is always a problem of non-response. There are
ways of adjusting for each of these problems, but these are not perfect.
The polling organizations do the best they can and as a result get
fairly reliable results. Unlike Mr. Dwyer I am willing to concede (for
the sake of argument at least) that the polls are somewhat
representative. (They are most useful when showing a trend or changes).
Also, Zogby has come under some criticism in the polling community IIRC.
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
The problem here is not polling. And to some extent
the results are interesting. But the results, as the
SBA list shows -- and Paul Anderson alludes to on
another post in this thread -- depend on how the
question is asked.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack replied:
I agree. A good example is Poll 1 (NBC News/Wall Street Journal
Poll) you cited below. The Pro-Abortion crowd learned years ago
that the wording "should be left up to the woman and her doctor"
makes respondents go all "mushy." They apparently picture a preg-
nant woman talking to the nice old gray-headed, bespectacled family
doctor who was offering pearls of wisdom. The reality, of course,
is the pregnant woman seldom sees the abortionist until he walks in
the room to perform the abortion.
I think, and I can claim no expertise here, that when the question that
is brought to mind in the respondent is the plight of a woman with an
unwanted pregnancy that polls will show a "pro-choice" bias and when the
question that is brought to mind is fetal mortality that the polls will
show a "pro-life" bias. Papa Jack will disagree, but I think that this
explains some of the apparent discrpancy between the SBA Polls and some,
such as the ones I included below, that they didn't publish.
General questions on abortion tend to bring fetal mortality to mind for
social reasons, but I conjecture that if abortion is indeed made illegal
that that condition will be reversed.
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
But, on the question of abortion, if one looks at all the polls there
are two things that they show clearly. Polls that ask the same question
from time to time can show movement in the public attitudes. There is
little chance that the way the question is posed will have an effect on
changes from time to time using the same wording. And the direction
among the American public is toward the "pro-life" point of view as two
polls below show.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack asked:
Bert, are you really saying the only polls which are to
be taken serious are those which have asked the same
question for year after year?
It seems Papa Jack isn't happy even when I agree with some of his
"pro-life" propaganda. But yes, any statistician will tell you that a
fairly bad poll will reflect, in some cases even reliably, changes in
opinoin from time to time if they ask the same question of comparably
chosen samples.
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
The second thing the polls show -- again Paul Anderson's post emphasizes
this -- is that the people in the middle of the pro-life - pro-choice
continuum are conflicted....
===========================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
Of course they're conflicted. This is one of the most controversial
topics of modern times.
Let's be honest, a substantial percentage of the population try to
NOT think about abortion and abortion issues. It's unpleasant,
it's disturbing, it's complex -- better to just not think about it.
This group often gives conflicting replies to polls because they
feel conflicted.
I agree with this analysis.
However, when forced to actually look at the issues -- rather
than the Pro-Abort euphemisms like "choice" -- a majority
of the "in-the-middle" types are surprised to find they support
the MODERATE Pro-Life position, i.e., abortion should be
LIMITED.
And I disagree with this one. It seems a strange arguement that people
are really made to look at the issue by a poll. Or, if that is not what
Papa Jack meant, purely conjectural to claim what "in-the_middle" types
find when forced to look at the issues. After all, when have any of
them had to look at the issues (other than, perhaps, in some state
referenda when polls showed a pro-life majority that then went to the
polls an voted the "pro-choice" position).
(Why can't Papa Jack carry forward his argument without name calling.
Does he really believe that his case is so weak?)
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
...The SBA polls are propagandistically cherry-picked to show
the public to be more "pro-life" than they really are....
===========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
Look at the list of who conducted the SBA polls:
Zogby Survey Poll
CNN/USA Today
Wirthlin Poll
Center for the Advancement of Women
FOX NEWS
CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES
CNN/TIME
How about the Center for the Advance of Women poll?
Do you really believe a poll done by that organization
was Pro-Life? Faye Wattleton is the president of the
Center. From 1978 to 1992, she was president of the
Planned Parenthood. Would you describe that as
"cherry-picked."
SBA chose the polls.
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
...Missing from the ones Papa Jack Posted are ones such as:
--- Poll 1 ----
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations
of Peter Hart (D) and Robert Teeter (R). Nov. 8-10, 2003. N=1,003 adults
nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
I tried to go to the home page for this organization, but it froze my
computer twice. Wonder why?
Try
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
"Which of the following best represents your views about abortion? The
choice on abortion should be left up to the woman and her doctor.
Abortion should be legal only in cases in which pregnancy results from
rape or incest or when the life of the woman is at risk. OR, Abortion
should be illegal in all circumstances."
Woman and Rape,Incest, Always Not
Doctor Life of Woman Illegal Sure
% % % %
11/03 53 29 15 3
1/03 59 29 9 3
1/97 60 26 11 3
8/96 56 30 12 2
3/96 56 31 10 3
12/95 60 28 10 2
7/91 60 31 8 1
6/91 57 36 7 -
7/90 57 33 8 2
--- End Poll 1 ----
===========================================================================
Papa Jack responded:
See my comments above.
===========================================================================
Bert Bishop wrote:
--- Poll 2 ---
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. July 15-16, 2003. N=900 registered
voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"On the issue of abortion, would you say you are more pro-life or more
pro-choice?"
Pro-choice Pro-life Both/Mix(vol.) NotSure
% % % %
7/03 44 44 6 6
4/03 49 41 5 5
1/02 47 41 5 7
1/01 47 42 7 4
7/00 54 38 5 3
1/00 43 44 8 5
6/99 42 44 9 5
--- end of Poll 2 ---
I think that these polls contradict Papa Jack's assertion that
"Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today". Clearly, too many Americans are conflicted on the
question for there to be a clear majority on this issue either way.
===========================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
I disagree. When I look at both the numbers and quality
of the polls which show Pro-Life positions in the majority,
I am convinced.
Is it still close? Yep, and it probably will be for years.
That simply shows the job ahead -- education all those
middle-of-the-road folks about the true evils of abortion.
.
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| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
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| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
23 Apr 2004 10:21:02 AM |
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Bert Bishop wrote:
Frank Dwyer wrote:
Papa Jack wrote:
The Susan B. Anthony List...
...a politically extreme right-wing group that seeks nothing more than
an outright ban on all forms of abortion, everywhere...
provides a comprehensive review of
recent nationwide polls related to abortion.
It isn't a comprehensive review. The polls weren't even comprehensive.
Go to:
http://www.sba-list.org/index.cfm/section/whatsnew/page/polls08072003.html
All clearly demonstrate Pro-Lifers are in the majority
in America today.
The most people they asked in any one of those useless polls is 3,330,
and those were women only.
Do you honestly believe that the opinions of 1000 people gives an
accurate reflection of the opinions of 300,000,000? Of course you'll say
yes, because the polls agree with you. So, do you think that the Bengals
will win the Super Bowl this year? I'm sure we could get a "random"
sampling of 1,000 Ohio football fans to say yes, so I guess every
football fan in country thinks the Bengals are a shoe-in, eh?
When are you going to learn?
This response betrays an ignorance of statistical and polling
procedures.
It's not an ignorance, it's an absolute disregard for their accuracy. I
know full well what the procedures are.
And most people don't really have a good understanding of
of statistics so its not big deal.
If, and its a big if, the sample is chosen correctly, a poll of 1000
people can accurately (depending on your definition of accurately, but
to within 3 or 4 % of the true value 95% of the time) reflect the
opinions of 300,000,000.
Can, but most likely doesn't.
The problem here is not polling. And to some
extent the results are interesting. But the results, as the SBA list
shows -- and Paul Anderson alludes to on another post in this thread --
depend on how the question is asked.
But, on the question of abortion, if one looks at all the polls there
are two things that they show clearly. Polls that ask the same question
from time to time can show movement in the public attitudes. There is
little chance that the way the question is posed will have an effect on
changes from time to time using the same wording. And the direction
among the American public is toward the "pro-life" point of view as two
polls below show.
The second thing the polls show -- again Paul Anderson's post emphasizes
this -- is that the people in the middle of the pro-life - pro-choice
continuum are conflicted. The SBA polls are propagandistically
cherry-picked to show the public to be more "pro-life" than they really
are.
Thus they aren't accurate.
Missing from the ones Papa Jack Posted are ones such as:
--- Poll 1 ----
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations
of Peter Hart (D) and Robert Teeter (R). Nov. 8-10, 2003. N=1,003 adults
nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.
"Which of the following best represents your views about abortion? The
choice on abortion should be left up to the woman and her doctor.
Abortion should be legal only in cases in which pregnancy results from
rape or incest or when the life of the woman is at risk. OR, Abortion
should be illegal in all circumstances."
Woman and Rape,Incest, Always Not
Doctor Life of Woman Illegal Sure
% % % %
11/03 53 29 15 3
1/03 59 29 9 3
1/97 60 26 11 3
8/96 56 30 12 2
3/96 56 31 10 3
12/95 60 28 10 2
7/91 60 31 8 1
6/91 57 36 7 -
7/90 57 33 8 2
--- End Poll 1 ----
--- Poll 2 ---
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. July 15-16, 2003. N=900 registered
voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.
.
"On the issue of abortion, would you say you are more pro-life or more
pro-choice?"
Pro-choice Pro-life Both/Mix(vol.) NotSure
% % % %
7/03 44 44 6 6
4/03 49 41 5 5
1/02 47 41 5 7
1/01 47 42 7 4
7/00 54 38 5 3
1/00 43 44 8 5
6/99 42 44 9 5
--- end of Poll 2 ---
I think that these polls contradict Papa Jack's assertion that
"Pro-Lifers are in the majority in America today". Clearly, too many Americans are conflicted on the
question for there to be a clear majority on this issue either way.
Actually, there is no way to know how many Americans are conflicted on
the issue. The only thing those polls show are the positions of the less
than 2000 people polled.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
22 Apr 2004 10:26:12 PM |
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Papa Jackass <papajack@stic.net> wrote:
The Susan B. Anthony List provides a comprehensive review of
They're an admitted anti-abortion organization.
As usual Jackass confuses pro-lie propaganda for truth.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "hate feminism" |
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| Title: Re: SBA List Reviews Polls |
23 Apr 2004 05:47:05 AM |
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Ray Fischer wrote:
Papa Jackass <papajack@stic.net> wrote:
The Susan B. Anthony List provides a comprehensive review of
They're an admitted anti-abortion organization.
As usual Jackass confuses pro-lie propaganda for truth.
Maybe you should vote for Kerry, fucktard?
.
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