The Chief Instigator wrote:

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> writes:

"Mark Sebree" <sebree@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:1133671509.661062.205980@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

osprey wrote:

[...]

She went through that, many years before her and I met. It is something
she regrets doing; however, she has moved on and we both have a wonderful
family now.

And if she had had that child, it is likely that you and she might not
have met.

That's true, but even so...I would love the child as if the child was my
own.

Bingo. That's how I'm a parent and a grandparent - because Dale's daughter is
the result of her single pregnancy, 30 years ago.

So why the ***** does heishman so vehemntly critizes women, so
dishonestly and disdainfully, about this? If he so respects the woman's
right to choose--if he cares about Tanya enough to set aside his
uneducated views on abortion, why can't he afford that respect to other
women?

Something tells me he is full of *****.

"Mark
"One last note: I am very surprised at your reaction especially after
just a few short months ago I provided a copy of my DD214 Right in
box 18...1st line it says... SERVED 2 AUG 90 TO 1 OCT 94 IN SUPPORT
OF OPERATION DESERT SHIELD/STORM and in box 13 NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE
MEDAL Funny how you have selective memory, why? Yes, I served in combat
during Desert Storm."

http://groups.google.com/group/talk.abortion/msg/38f5de5691243868?dmode=source&hl=en


"Fine, if you want to play on words...no I was not in actual "combat" "

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/db12fe6b6ec66a35?dmode=source&hl=en

"Mark Sebree" <sebree@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:1133671509.661062.205980@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

osprey wrote:

"Mark Sebree" <sebree@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:1133668228.670910.317550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

r_c_brown@hushmail.com wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

r_c_brown@hushmail.com wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022586@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022586@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022586@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022...@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Did the woman make the baby by herself or did she
have help from the
man?

Who's body is the embryo/fetus in and living off of?
Is she the slave
of the man, subject to his orders and whims?

I'll assume that you already know the answer, so
I'll
close with this,
ethically it is only right that the man have a say
in
whether or not
the be baby be born because he helped to conceive
him.

However, the woman is not the man's slave nor is she
subject to his
orders. Since she is the one that is pregnant, she
is
the one that has
the final say in the matter. She does not even have
to
tell her S.O.
that she is pregnant.

You people are a piece of work you know that. You talk
about how bad it
is for a woman to be submissive to a man, but admire a
couple where the
man is whipped and the woman walks all over him.

I do not see that at all. For some reason, you seem to
think that
equal partners is a bad thing. And I do not see where
get
that the man
is "being whipped" or that the woman is "walk[ing] all
over
him". It
is her life and her body, so it is her choice.

What's more, ethically, the woman is the only one
that
can make the
decision, and it is her decision that counts the
most.
Therefore,
there is no reason that she should include anyone
else
in that decision
if she does not want to do so.

It's his baby too, *****.

So? It is her body that it is using, so she has final
say
in the
matter.

He helped make it he has equal say in what
happens to it.

And if they disagree? Anti-choice advocates/terrorists
never seem to
want to answer that question, since it tends to reveal
their prejudices
and their agendas.

What agenda?

The agenda to deny women to right to control their own
bodies.

As a father if someone goes after my kid, I'm gonna
rataliate.

Then why are you forcing women to continue pregnancies
against
their
wills? In doing so, you are "going after" some man's
daughter
and
making her suffer unnecessarily.

LOL! Yeah ok.

You did not answer the question. Don't like to face the fact
that
you
are effectively advocating turning pregnant women into slaves by
forcing them to continue unwanted pregnancies to their
detriment?

And I hope that your child grows up compassionate with a
love
of
equality, liberty, and freedom, and thus causes no end of
consternation.

You think that's a bad thing?

No. However, I do think that forcing women to continue
unwanted
pregnnacies is a bad thing.

Yes you do. You help create a baby and you don't think you
have a
say
in what happens to him?

If it is a baby, then it has been born. And my say does not
matter
unless the woman asks me for an opinion. And even then, she
still
makes the final decision, since she is the one that is pregnant.
After
all, despite what you think, she is not a slave.

<snip>

There is one thing in this exchange that I do not understand. You
have
made this statement - "If it is a baby, then it has been born" -
or
something similar a few times. Are you a parent?

Not that it is any of your business, but no.

Of course it is not my business, nor did I mean to imply it was. I do
thank you for your reply.

If not, please
disregard the rest of my query.

If you are a parent, when your wife was pregnant, did you not
consider
what she carried in her womb your baby?

"Mine" in what way?

Well, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. When I wrote
"your" baby, I meant the baby that you and your wife (or significant
other) were expecting, and would subsequently be raising. Parents
invest a lot - or should do so - in their children, and I'm not
referring to money; it's a mutual effort. Does that make what I wrote
clearer?

Yes. And that does not change the fact that it is still her body, and
she has the final decision about whether or not to continue her
pregnancy.

So let me ask you something.
Let's say your girlfriend/wife..what ever...is pregnant.
Are you saying that you wouldn't not care what choice she made, as to
whether to keep the baby or abort?

Yes, I would care. But I would also respect what she wants, and
support her in that decision. After all, she is the one that is
pregnant, not me.

Right, but that is also just as much your child as hers.

Remember, this is also your unborn child as well.
Are you saying that you have no feelings about this at all, that you
wouldn't care?

Se above.

Or say she doesn't tell you about it, and you find out later that the
unborn
child both of you created, she decided to abort. You wouldn't care at
all?

Perhaps. However, I do not see how it would make any difference. Part
of the question would be how much later, what is our relationship at
the time, what is our relationship now, and why she choose to have the
abortion. All of those things play into the eventual opinion.

For example, let's say that we had sex early in the relationship,
contraceptives fail, she gets pregnant, and decides to get an abortion.
Some of the reasons could include the fact that she does not yet know
me very well, or the pregnancy couple have been etopic. No matter when
I found out, both reasons are completely understandable to me, no
matter that happens later.

I will say this, that for most of the men in here that I have seen argue
for
abortion rights it wouldn't surprise me in the least that you wouldn't
care
at all.

That is because you do not know me.

I will agree with you there, you I do not know you and I am not going to
pretend to know as so many others in here pretend they know me..when in fact
most are WAY off.

It appears that most of the men in here arguing for a woman's right
to choose, most if not all leftist, appear to favor this because it gets
them out of having to be responsible.

Where do you see that? Most of the men that I have seen argue for
pro-choice prefer to treat women as individuals and equal partners,
with their own minds and own opinions.

Sorry Mark, I do not share that opinion at all...because this issue on
abortion is so far off from equality..it stinks.

As a man and a father myself, it would mean a great deal to me because I
would love the unborn child before birth and continue to bond.

However, you are not the one that is pregnant.

I would like
to see that she would support life over death.

Abortion is supporting life. HER LIFE.

No Mark...two lives, sometimes more

Of course, this is a decision
my wife and I both discussed before her and I got married and had
children
of her own. We both knew that if she was to get pregnant, she would not
abort.

Fine. However, not everyone is in a relationship where that is
possible or reasonable.

She went through that, many years before her and I met. It is something
she
regrets doing; however, she has moved on and we both have a wonderful
family
now.

And if she had had that child, it is likely that you and she might not
have met.

That's true, but even so...I would love the child as if the child was my
own.

Children change people's life paths quite consistently, and
not always for the better. Children result in different decisions
being made, and one of those decisions could easily have resulted in
you and she never meeting. Because of her child, she my not have been
at where ever the two of you first met, or even have resulting in her
being in a completely different state. Something to ponder.

As a man and a father, I bonded with my children before birth.

Because you wanted children, as did your wife. Now think about if she
did not want any children? What then? I know couples that don't want
to have any children at all. And yes, they did reach that decision
together. Do you want to force them to have children that they already
know that they do not want?

If they are that sure they don't want children, then there are surgical
procedures that can ensure they don't.

That is why I am pro-choice, because I cannot and will not make such a
decision for anyone else. Every situation is different, with different
factors being more and less important, and the result of the decision
can be extremely life changing. For that reason, every woman needs as
many options with respect to their pregnancies, especially unplanned
pregnancies, as possible under current technology. Currently, our
level of technology offers only two choices, continue the pregnancy or
get an abortion. Science fiction has come up with more, but none of
them are currently available, and many are not even on the drawing
boards yet.

Mark Sebree

osprey wrote:

"Mark Sebree" <sebree@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:1133668228.670910.317550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

r_c_brown@hushmail.com wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

r_c_brown@hushmail.com wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022586@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022586@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022586@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022...@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Did the woman make the baby by herself or did she
have help from the
man?

Who's body is the embryo/fetus in and living off of?
Is she the slave
of the man, subject to his orders and whims?

I'll assume that you already know the answer, so I'll
close with this,
ethically it is only right that the man have a say in
whether or not
the be baby be born because he helped to conceive
him.

However, the woman is not the man's slave nor is she
subject to his
orders. Since she is the one that is pregnant, she is
the one that has
the final say in the matter. She does not even have to
tell her S.O.
that she is pregnant.

You people are a piece of work you know that. You talk
about how bad it
is for a woman to be submissive to a man, but admire a
couple where the
man is whipped and the woman walks all over him.

I do not see that at all. For some reason, you seem to
think that
equal partners is a bad thing. And I do not see where get
that the man
is "being whipped" or that the woman is "walk[ing] all over
him". It
is her life and her body, so it is her choice.

What's more, ethically, the woman is the only one that
can make the
decision, and it is her decision that counts the most.
Therefore,
there is no reason that she should include anyone else
in that decision
if she does not want to do so.

It's his baby too, *****.

So? It is her body that it is using, so she has final say
in the
matter.

He helped make it he has equal say in what
happens to it.

And if they disagree? Anti-choice advocates/terrorists
never seem to
want to answer that question, since it tends to reveal
their prejudices
and their agendas.

What agenda?

The agenda to deny women to right to control their own bodies.

As a father if someone goes after my kid, I'm gonna
rataliate.

Then why are you forcing women to continue pregnancies against
their
wills? In doing so, you are "going after" some man's daughter
and
making her suffer unnecessarily.

LOL! Yeah ok.

You did not answer the question. Don't like to face the fact that
you
are effectively advocating turning pregnant women into slaves by
forcing them to continue unwanted pregnancies to their detriment?

And I hope that your child grows up compassionate with a love
of
equality, liberty, and freedom, and thus causes no end of
consternation.

You think that's a bad thing?

No. However, I do think that forcing women to continue
unwanted
pregnnacies is a bad thing.

Yes you do. You help create a baby and you don't think you have a
say
in what happens to him?

If it is a baby, then it has been born. And my say does not matter
unless the woman asks me for an opinion. And even then, she still
makes the final decision, since she is the one that is pregnant.
After
all, despite what you think, she is not a slave.

<snip>

There is one thing in this exchange that I do not understand. You
have
made this statement - "If it is a baby, then it has been born" - or
something similar a few times. Are you a parent?

Not that it is any of your business, but no.

Of course it is not my business, nor did I mean to imply it was. I do
thank you for your reply.

If not, please
disregard the rest of my query.

If you are a parent, when your wife was pregnant, did you not
consider
what she carried in her womb your baby?

"Mine" in what way?

Well, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. When I wrote
"your" baby, I meant the baby that you and your wife (or significant
other) were expecting, and would subsequently be raising. Parents
invest a lot - or should do so - in their children, and I'm not
referring to money; it's a mutual effort. Does that make what I wrote
clearer?

Yes. And that does not change the fact that it is still her body, and
she has the final decision about whether or not to continue her
pregnancy.

So let me ask you something.
Let's say your girlfriend/wife..what ever...is pregnant.
Are you saying that you wouldn't not care what choice she made, as to
whether to keep the baby or abort?

Yes, I would care. But I would also respect what she wants, and
support her in that decision. After all, she is the one that is
pregnant, not me.

Remember, this is also your unborn child as well.
Are you saying that you have no feelings about this at all, that you
wouldn't care?

Se above.

Or say she doesn't tell you about it, and you find out later that the unborn
child both of you created, she decided to abort. You wouldn't care at all?

Perhaps. However, I do not see how it would make any difference. Part
of the question would be how much later, what is our relationship at
the time, what is our relationship now, and why she choose to have the
abortion. All of those things play into the eventual opinion.

For example, let's say that we had sex early in the relationship,
contraceptives fail, she gets pregnant, and decides to get an abortion.
Some of the reasons could include the fact that she does not yet know
me very well, or the pregnancy couple have been etopic. No matter when
I found out, both reasons are completely understandable to me, no
matter that happens later.

I will say this, that for most of the men in here that I have seen argue for
abortion rights it wouldn't surprise me in the least that you wouldn't care
at all.

That is because you do not know me.

It appears that most of the men in here arguing for a woman's right
to choose, most if not all leftist, appear to favor this because it gets
them out of having to be responsible.

Where do you see that? Most of the men that I have seen argue for
pro-choice prefer to treat women as individuals and equal partners,
with their own minds and own opinions.

As a man and a father myself, it would mean a great deal to me because I
would love the unborn child before birth and continue to bond.

However, you are not the one that is pregnant.

I would like
to see that she would support life over death.

Abortion is supporting life. HER LIFE.

Of course, this is a decision
my wife and I both discussed before her and I got married and had children
of her own. We both knew that if she was to get pregnant, she would not
abort.

Fine. However, not everyone is in a relationship where that is
possible or reasonable.

She went through that, many years before her and I met. It is something she
regrets doing; however, she has moved on and we both have a wonderful family
now.

And if she had had that child, it is likely that you and she might not
have met. Children change people's life paths quite consistently, and
not always for the better. Children result in different decisions
being made, and one of those decisions could easily have resulted in
you and she never meeting. Because of her child, she my not have been
at where ever the two of you first met, or even have resulting in her
being in a completely different state. Something to ponder.

As a man and a father, I bonded with my children before birth.

Because you wanted children, as did your wife. Now think about if she
did not want any children? What then? I know couples that don't want
to have any children at all. And yes, they did reach that decision
together. Do you want to force them to have children that they already
know that they do not want?

That is why I am pro-choice, because I cannot and will not make such a
decision for anyone else. Every situation is different, with different
factors being more and less important, and the result of the decision
can be extremely life changing. For that reason, every woman needs as
many options with respect to their pregnancies, especially unplanned
pregnancies, as possible under current technology. Currently, our
level of technology offers only two choices, continue the pregnancy or
get an abortion. Science fiction has come up with more, but none of
them are currently available, and many are not even on the drawing
boards yet.

Mark Sebree

"Mark Sebree" <sebree@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:1133668228.670910.317550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

r_c_brown@hushmail.com wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

r_c_brown@hushmail.com wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022586@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022586@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022586@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Mark Sebree wrote:

rc022...@reinhardt.edu wrote:

Did the woman make the baby by herself or did she
have help from the
man?

Who's body is the embryo/fetus in and living off of?
Is she the slave
of the man, subject to his orders and whims?

I'll assume that you already know the answer, so I'll
close with this,
ethically it is only right that the man have a say in
whether or not
the be baby be born because he helped to conceive
him.

However, the woman is not the man's slave nor is she
subject to his
orders. Since she is the one that is pregnant, she is
the one that has
the final say in the matter. She does not even have to
tell her S.O.
that she is pregnant.

You people are a piece of work you know that. You talk
about how bad it
is for a woman to be submissive to a man, but admire a
couple where the
man is whipped and the woman walks all over him.

I do not see that at all. For some reason, you seem to
think that
equal partners is a bad thing. And I do not see where get
that the man
is "being whipped" or that the woman is "walk[ing] all over
him". It
is her life and her body, so it is her choice.

What's more, ethically, the woman is the only one that
can make the
decision, and it is her decision that counts the most.
Therefore,
there is no reason that she should include anyone else
in that decision
if she does not want to do so.

It's his baby too, *****.

So? It is her body that it is using, so she has final say
in the
matter.

He helped make it he has equal say in what
happens to it.

And if they disagree? Anti-choice advocates/terrorists
never seem to
want to answer that question, since it tends to reveal
their prejudices
and their agendas.

What agenda?

The agenda to deny women to right to control their own bodies.

As a father if someone goes after my kid, I'm gonna
rataliate.

Then why are you forcing women to continue pregnancies against
their
wills? In doing so, you are "going after" some man's daughter
and
making her suffer unnecessarily.

LOL! Yeah ok.

You did not answer the question. Don't like to face the fact that
you
are effectively advocating turning pregnant women into slaves by
forcing them to continue unwanted pregnancies to their detriment?

And I hope that your child grows up compassionate with a love
of
equality, liberty, and freedom, and thus causes no end of
consternation.

You think that's a bad thing?

No. However, I do think that forcing women to continue
unwanted
pregnnacies is a bad thing.

Yes you do. You help create a baby and you don't think you have a
say
in what happens to him?

If it is a baby, then it has been born. And my say does not matter
unless the woman asks me for an opinion. And even then, she still
makes the final decision, since she is the one that is pregnant.
After
all, despite what you think, she is not a slave.

<snip>

There is one thing in this exchange that I do not understand. You
have
made this statement - "If it is a baby, then it has been born" - or
something similar a few times. Are you a parent?

Not that it is any of your business, but no.

Of course it is not my business, nor did I mean to imply it was. I do
thank you for your reply.

If not, please
disregard the rest of my query.

If you are a parent, when your wife was pregnant, did you not
consider
what she carried in her womb your baby?

"Mine" in what way?

Well, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. When I wrote
"your" baby, I meant the baby that you and your wife (or significant
other) were expecting, and would subsequently be raising. Parents
invest a lot - or should do so - in their children, and I'm not
referring to money; it's a mutual effort. Does that make what I wrote
clearer?

Yes. And that does not change the fact that it is still her body, and
she has the final decision about whether or not to continue her
pregnancy.

So let me ask you something.
Let's say your girlfriend/wife..what ever...is pregnant.
Are you saying that you wouldn't not care what choice she made, as to
whether to keep the baby or abort?
Remember, this is also your unborn child as well.
Are you saying that you have no feelings about this at all, that you
wouldn't care?

Or say she doesn't tell you about it, and you find out later that the unborn
child both of you created, she decided to abort.