Science > Abortion > Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked)
| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass" |
| Date: |
30 Nov 2005 02:38:17 AM |
| Object: |
Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
Oops,
Facts 1, GOP 0
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2109 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Now, did I want to go? Hell no."
-duke (duckgumbo32@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 63
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge, on why
a Neocon chickenhawk like him pussied out of
the Vietnam War.
.
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| User: "--sexkitten--" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP LieDebunked) |
30 Nov 2005 04:27:50 PM |
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Johnny wrote:
"--sexkitten--" <ladyhawk_twoFILTER@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133371847_45779@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
Johnny wrote:
"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message
news:f8oqo19hga6rvg83nknakl72old1bu3m69@4ax.com...
Oops,
Facts 1, GOP 0
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
Why didn't they interview any men?
Because men don't get pregnant, dumbass. That much should be obvious.
What a BS statement to make.
Why do you expect every man, woman, and child ot live in denial of the
*FACT* that men are involved in pregnancies?
They can be involved all they want- that still won't make them pregnant.
The blatant sexist bias in the Pro-Choice area is soooo blaringly
evident.
What a joke of a study in a time when we are into gender equality.
Yeah, I'll get right on that survey about women's feelings about their
prostate exams.
So, do it then?
Why? They don't get prostate exams.
I am sure they have feelings about such, or are you saying that all women
are selfish now that they have no interest in or care for men?
They can care all they want- it won't make them grow a prostate.
Think the gov't will give me a grant?
Not if you aren't giving them sex favors for $$ taken from the people.
Oh, is THAT how you got your government money?
LOL!!!!!!!!!!
--
--sexkitten--
Sneechres on marital rape:
1414fd53.0312142051.5e760545@posting.google.com
Marriage is a contract in which everything is shared, including
bodies. What's yours is his and what's his is yours.
By withholding sex from him you violated your marriage vows. You
stole from your husband what was rightfully his.
1126802087.688528.21760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Making your mind up is called the marriage
certificate. If you want to change it, it's called a divorce.
1414fd53.0311032335.47dd4971@posting.google.com
How would a witnesses' opinion, or a DA's opinion, or
a jurist's opinion, or a judge's opinion of the significance of force
involved be relevant?
The issue is that you think the government and it's
various judicial arms should act as people's parents and guardians,
even when it isn't there and can't possibly mediate what goes on in the
privacy of someone's bedroom without resorting to testimony--"he said,
she said".
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
.
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| User: "Bill K." |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
02 Dec 2005 12:11:39 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:38:17 -0800, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Oops,
Facts 1, GOP 0
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This story doesn't detail the methodology used to obtain the data, which
could be crucial to the findings. If, for instance, you went around asking
women:
1. Did you have an unintended pregnancy in the last year (or whatever)?
2. Did you terminate the pregnancy or carry the child to term?
3. Did you suffer depression afterward?
.... do you see a fallacy here?
(I'm not implying knowledge that the above was or was not the methodology
used - the story doesn't say one way or the other).
Hint: If a woman died (esp. by suicide) after the event, she wouldn't be
alive to be polled.
On that note, a recent study by Finland's National Research and Development
Center for Welfare and Health allegedly found a significant increase in
suicides of women who had an abortion during the preceding year.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2109 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Now, did I want to go? Hell no."
-duke (duckgumbo32@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 63
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge, on why
a Neocon chickenhawk like him pussied out of
the Vietnam War.
.
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| User: "Spartakus" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
02 Dec 2005 12:37:48 PM |
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"Bill K." <bilkay@XXXoptonline.net> wrote...
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Oops,
Facts 1, GOP 0
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This story doesn't detail the methodology used to obtain the data, which
could be crucial to the findings. If, for instance, you went around asking
women:
1. Did you have an unintended pregnancy in the last year (or whatever)?
2. Did you terminate the pregnancy or carry the child to term?
3. Did you suffer depression afterward?
... do you see a fallacy here?
(I'm not implying knowledge that the above was or was not the methodology
used - the story doesn't say one way or the other).
Hint: If a woman died (esp. by suicide) after the event, she wouldn't be
alive to be polled.
On that note, a recent study by Finland's National Research and
Development
Center for Welfare and Health allegedly found a significant increase in
suicides of women who had an abortion during the preceding year.
The purpose of that study in Finland was to show that women who have
abortions are typically in risky situations and/or having health problems
that aren't being dealt with. The infromation presented was meant give
health care workers a chance to intervene. Similarly, other studies have
shown that women who are having abortions are often in abusive
relationships, so it's a good time to inquire about that. Women having
abortions are more likely to have various STDs, so this presents an
opportunity to treat them.
Women who have abortions in the United States are four times more likely to
die "by legal intervention" (translation: shot by police) than women who
don't. There's no way you can assert a cause-and-effect on something like
that.
The common denominator here is *poverty*. Poor women are more likely to
have health problems (including STDs), more likely to be in abusive
relationships, more likely to commit suicide... and more likely to abort an
unwanted pregnancy.
One of the many side benefits of the prosperity we enjoyed in the 1990s is
that the abortion rate went down significantly as more and more people
pulled themselves out of poverty. Food for thought, definitely.
.
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| User: "Bill K." |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
02 Dec 2005 04:12:58 PM |
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On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 12:37:48 -0600, Spartakus wrote:
"Bill K." <bilkay@XXXoptonline.net> wrote...
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Oops,
Facts 1, GOP 0
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This story doesn't detail the methodology used to obtain the data, which
could be crucial to the findings. If, for instance, you went around asking
women:
1. Did you have an unintended pregnancy in the last year (or whatever)?
2. Did you terminate the pregnancy or carry the child to term?
3. Did you suffer depression afterward?
... do you see a fallacy here?
(I'm not implying knowledge that the above was or was not the methodology
used - the story doesn't say one way or the other).
Hint: If a woman died (esp. by suicide) after the event, she wouldn't be
alive to be polled.
On that note, a recent study by Finland's National Research and
Development
Center for Welfare and Health allegedly found a significant increase in
suicides of women who had an abortion during the preceding year.
The purpose of that study in Finland was to show that women who have
abortions are typically in risky situations and/or having health problems
that aren't being dealt with. The infromation presented was meant give
health care workers a chance to intervene. Similarly, other studies have
shown that women who are having abortions are often in abusive
relationships, so it's a good time to inquire about that. Women having
abortions are more likely to have various STDs, so this presents an
opportunity to treat them.
Women who have abortions in the United States are four times more likely to
die "by legal intervention" (translation: shot by police) than women who
don't. There's no way you can assert a cause-and-effect on something like
that.
The common denominator here is *poverty*. Poor women are more likely to
have health problems (including STDs), more likely to be in abusive
relationships, more likely to commit suicide... and more likely to abort an
unwanted pregnancy.
One of the many side benefits of the prosperity we enjoyed in the 1990s is
that the abortion rate went down significantly as more and more people
pulled themselves out of poverty. Food for thought, definitely.
You've made a lot of allegations with no supporting evidence.
So noted.
By the way, are you insinuating that "poverty" is more prevalent in
SOCIALIST Finland?
.
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| User: "Spartakus" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
02 Dec 2005 04:17:48 PM |
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"Bill K." <bilkay@XXXoptonline.net> wrote...
Spartakus wrote:
"Bill K." <bilkay@XXXoptonline.net> wrote...
On that note, a recent study by Finland's National Research and
Development Center for Welfare and Health allegedly found a
significant increase in suicides of women who had an abortion
during the preceding year.
The purpose of that study in Finland was to show that women who have
abortions are typically in risky situations and/or having health
problems
that aren't being dealt with. The infromation presented was meant give
health care workers a chance to intervene. Similarly, other studies
have
shown that women who are having abortions are often in abusive
relationships, so it's a good time to inquire about that. Women having
abortions are more likely to have various STDs, so this presents an
opportunity to treat them.
Women who have abortions in the United States are four times more likely
to
die "by legal intervention" (translation: shot by police) than women who
don't. There's no way you can assert a cause-and-effect on something
like
that.
The common denominator here is *poverty*. Poor women are more likely to
have health problems (including STDs), more likely to be in abusive
relationships, more likely to commit suicide... and more likely to abort
an
unwanted pregnancy.
One of the many side benefits of the prosperity we enjoyed in the 1990s
is
that the abortion rate went down significantly as more and more people
pulled themselves out of poverty. Food for thought, definitely.
You've made a lot of allegations with no supporting evidence.
Pot, kettle, black, Bill. I'll bet you didn't even read the study that you
are misrepresenting.
So noted.
*snicker*
By the way, are you insinuating that "poverty" is more prevalent in
SOCIALIST Finland?
No.
.
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| User: "Bill K." |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
03 Dec 2005 07:56:13 AM |
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On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 16:17:48 -0600, Spartakus wrote:
"Bill K." <bilkay@XXXoptonline.net> wrote...
Spartakus wrote:
"Bill K." <bilkay@XXXoptonline.net> wrote...
On that note, a recent study by Finland's National Research and
Development Center for Welfare and Health allegedly found a
significant increase in suicides of women who had an abortion
during the preceding year.
The purpose of that study in Finland was to show that women who have
abortions are typically in risky situations and/or having health
problems
that aren't being dealt with. The infromation presented was meant give
health care workers a chance to intervene. Similarly, other studies
have
shown that women who are having abortions are often in abusive
relationships, so it's a good time to inquire about that. Women having
abortions are more likely to have various STDs, so this presents an
opportunity to treat them.
Women who have abortions in the United States are four times more likely
to
die "by legal intervention" (translation: shot by police) than women who
don't. There's no way you can assert a cause-and-effect on something
like
that.
The common denominator here is *poverty*. Poor women are more likely to
have health problems (including STDs), more likely to be in abusive
relationships, more likely to commit suicide... and more likely to abort
an
unwanted pregnancy.
One of the many side benefits of the prosperity we enjoyed in the 1990s
is
that the abortion rate went down significantly as more and more people
pulled themselves out of poverty. Food for thought, definitely.
You've made a lot of allegations with no supporting evidence.
Pot, kettle, black, Bill. I'll bet you didn't even read the study that you
are misrepresenting.
One would think that when someone claims misrepresentation, he would be
able to produce at least ONE instance of it. But as I noted, you have a
habit of saying lots and providing little if anything.
Since I didn't actually "represent" the study as anything other than a
piece of information, I can hardly be accused of "MISrepresenting" it.
So noted.
*snicker*
By the way, are you insinuating that "poverty" is more prevalent in
SOCIALIST Finland?
No.
.
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| User: "Bill K." |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
30 Nov 2005 02:11:23 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:38:17 -0800, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This article seems to indicate that abortionists are preying on mentally
ill women:
A recent US study had suggested having an abortion increased significantly
a woman's chance of suffering depression.
But the authors of a British Medical Journal work looking at 1,247 women
say pre-existing mental health might be a better predictor of depression
risk.
<
Note that it doesn't DISPUTE the US findings, it just gives an alternate
explanation. If the US findings are factual, it follows LOGICALLY that a
greater percentage of women with "mental-health" issues are having
abortions, and this is allegedly CONFIRMED by the British study.
.
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| User: "Spartakus" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
30 Nov 2005 02:51:55 PM |
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"Bill K." <bilkay@XXXoptonline.net> wrote...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This article seems to indicate that abortionists are preying on mentally
ill women:
Are you insane?
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
30 Nov 2005 04:02:09 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:51:55 -0600, "Spartakus" <no.spam@this.address>
wrote:
"Bill K." <bilkay@XXXoptonline.net> wrote...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This article seems to indicate that abortionists are preying on mentally
ill women:
Are you insane?
Given his behaviour in other threads, yes.
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| User: "Mimi Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP LieDebunked) |
30 Nov 2005 06:51:07 PM |
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Spartakus wrote:
"Bill K." <bilkay@XXXoptonline.net> wrote...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This article seems to indicate that abortionists are preying on mentally
ill women:
Are you insane?
a given :)
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 12:12:43 AM |
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Bill K. <bilkay@XXXoptonline.net> wrote:
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This article seems to indicate that abortionists are preying on mentally
ill women:
No, it's pro-lie terrorists who prey on women.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
30 Nov 2005 02:17:40 PM |
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Bill K. wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:38:17 -0800, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This article seems to indicate that abortionists are preying on mentally
ill women:
No, It doesnt.
A recent US study had suggested having an abortion increased significantly
a woman's chance of suffering depression.
But the authors of a British Medical Journal work looking at 1,247 women
say pre-existing mental health might be a better predictor of depression
risk.
<
Note that it doesn't DISPUTE the US findings, it just gives an alternate
explanation.
No. It doesnt.
If the US findings are factual, it follows LOGICALLY that a
greater percentage of women with "mental-health" issues are having
abortions, and this is allegedly CONFIRMED by the British study.
No. It isnt.
"It showed that the women who opted for a termination reported less
depression than those who chose to carry on with the unwanted
pregnancy."
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| User: "Bill K." |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
30 Nov 2005 04:39:12 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:17:40 -0800, Donalbai wrote:
Bill K. wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:38:17 -0800, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This article seems to indicate that abortionists are preying on
mentally ill women:
No, It doesnt.
A recent US study had suggested having an abortion increased
significantly a woman's chance of suffering depression.
But the authors of a British Medical Journal work looking at 1,247
women say pre-existing mental health might be a better predictor of
depression risk.
<
Note that it doesn't DISPUTE the US findings, it just gives an
alternate explanation.
No. It doesnt.
If the US findings are factual, it follows LOGICALLY that a
greater percentage of women with "mental-health" issues are having
abortions, and this is allegedly CONFIRMED by the British study.
No. It isnt.
"It showed that the women who opted for a termination reported less
depression than those who chose to carry on with the unwanted
pregnancy."
Since you're so much smarter than I, perhaps you can explain this:
"Professor Nancy Russo, from Arizona State University, and her colleague
Sarah Schmiege from the University of Colorado, said the difference
between their results and the previous US study that did find a link
between abortion and depression might be down to the way the studies were
carried out.
"In the previous study, the researchers looked at women with unintended
pregnancies, which could have included some that were wanted although
unplanned.
"In the current study, Professor Russo made sure they only included women
who said the pregnancy was unwanted."
What this is saying is that the British study EXCLUDED women with
"unplanned" pregnancies, who did not say their pregnancy was "unwanted".
If their pregnancy wasn't "unwanted", why would they have had an abortion?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 09:08:10 AM |
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Bill K. wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:17:40 -0800, Donalbai wrote:
Bill K. wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:38:17 -0800, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This article seems to indicate that abortionists are preying on
mentally ill women:
No, It doesnt.
A recent US study had suggested having an abortion increased
significantly a woman's chance of suffering depression.
But the authors of a British Medical Journal work looking at 1,247
women say pre-existing mental health might be a better predictor of
depression risk.
<
Note that it doesn't DISPUTE the US findings, it just gives an
alternate explanation.
No. It doesnt.
If the US findings are factual, it follows LOGICALLY that a
greater percentage of women with "mental-health" issues are having
abortions, and this is allegedly CONFIRMED by the British study.
No. It isnt.
"It showed that the women who opted for a termination reported less
depression than those who chose to carry on with the unwanted
pregnancy."
Since you're so much smarter than I, perhaps you can explain this:
Well, given your inability to read for comprehension, that isnt the
greatest compliment I have ever had, but thanks.
"Professor Nancy Russo, from Arizona State University, and her colleague
Sarah Schmiege from the University of Colorado, said the difference
between their results and the previous US study that did find a link
between abortion and depression might be down to the way the studies were
carried out.
"In the previous study, the researchers looked at women with unintended
pregnancies, which could have included some that were wanted although
unplanned.
"In the current study, Professor Russo made sure they only included women
who said the pregnancy was unwanted."
What this is saying is that the British study EXCLUDED women with
"unplanned" pregnancies, who did not say their pregnancy was "unwanted".
If their pregnancy wasn't "unwanted", why would they have had an abortion?
Errr.. the article doesnt say wether the women who had unplanned but
not unwanted pregnancies had abortions or not. Indeed, those women were
EXCLUDED from the study, so you have no idea wether they had abortions
or not. The study only looked at women with unwanted pregnancies.
.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 09:59:56 AM |
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:11:23 -0500, Bill K. wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:38:17 -0800, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4379422.stm
This article seems to indicate that abortionists are preying on mentally
ill women:
Perhaps mentally ill women are more likely to wind up with an unwanted
pregnancy?
A recent US study had suggested having an abortion increased
significantly a woman's chance of suffering depression.
But the authors of a British Medical Journal work looking at 1,247 women
say pre-existing mental health might be a better predictor of depression
risk.
<
Note that it doesn't DISPUTE the US findings, it just gives an alternate
explanation. If the US findings are factual, it follows LOGICALLY that a
greater percentage of women with "mental-health" issues are having
abortions, and this is allegedly CONFIRMED by the British study.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
30 Nov 2005 07:58:14 AM |
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Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie)
==============
The aborted baby does not suffer depression because the aborted baby is
dead via murder.
Hitler did not feel guilt / depression about his murdering millions of
people; in fact, Hitler claimed such murder was justified and he was
proud of it.
Some women have published articles about how they felt depressed after
killing their babies via abortion.
The Bible says that most sinners do not experience guilt and depression
regarding their sins.
God condemns such unrepentant sinners.
Take those facts and write your own sermon.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
10 Dec 2005 01:53:36 PM |
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<joesterl@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133359094.249494.114730@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie)
==============
The aborted baby does not suffer depression because the aborted baby is
dead via murder.
Abortion is not murder, twat.
Hitler did not feel guilt / depression about his murdering millions of
people; in fact, Hitler claimed such murder was justified and he was
proud of it.
Hey, what about 'God', look at all the BILLIONS he has happily slaughtered !
Tsuanami anyone ?
Some women have published articles about how they felt depressed after
killing their babies via abortion.
The Bible says that most sinners do not experience guilt and depression
regarding their sins.
God condemns such unrepentant sinners.
'God' doesn't exist.
Take those facts and write your own sermon.
Take yourself....find a tall bridge, and well, jump !
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable notion
that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often led to
accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what that
reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be skeptical of
someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
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| User: "Gaia" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
30 Nov 2005 02:18:35 PM |
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wrote:
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie)
==============
The aborted baby does not suffer depression because...
....there isn't one.
*****.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 12:39:49 AM |
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In alt.atheism On 30 Nov 2005 05:58:14 -0800, let
us all know that:
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie)
==============
The aborted baby does not suffer depression because the aborted baby is
dead via murder.
Prove that a fetus has rights.
Don
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
30 Nov 2005 08:38:41 AM |
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On 30 Nov 2005 05:58:14 -0800, in alt.abortion
with message-id
<1133359094.249494.114730@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie)
==============
The aborted baby does not suffer depression because the aborted baby is
dead via murder.
Not if you are speaking English and talking about anywhere abortion is
legal. Murder requires an illegal component. Without this illegal
component an act can no more be murder than a hamburger can be a
hamburger without meat or a cow be a cow without four legs and bovine
DNA.
It is impossible for a legal act to be illegal - it simply cannot
happen, To talk as if it can is to dishonestly foster a lie and
deception, as well as clearly indicating the audience is too dumb to
know what is being said.
Hitler did not feel guilt / depression about his murdering millions of
people; in fact, Hitler claimed such murder was justified and he was
proud of it.
But every person killed by the Nazi government was born alive.
Some women have published articles about how they felt depressed after
killing their babies via abortion.
THE MYTH OF POST-ABORTION TRAUMA
by Henry P David PhD
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Induced abortion is one of the oldest forms of fertility
regulation. Perhaps no other elective procedure has evoked
as much public debate, generated such emotional and moral
controversy or received greater sustained attention from the
media. As has long been recognized, there is no
psychologically painless way of coping with an unwanted
pregnancy. While an abortion may elicit feelings of regret,
guilt or loss, an alternative solution, such as a forced
marriage, giving a baby up for adoption or adding an
unwanted child to an already strained partner relationship,
is also likely to be accompanied by psychological problems
for the woman, the child and society.
Of all the complications of abortion, psychological
responses are the most difficult to assess and evaluatepfar
more so than mortality and morbidity statistics. Assuming
that psychiatric or psychological morbidity is a real and
measurable phenomenon, the explanation for the wide range of
opinions expressed in the literature may well lie in the
inadequacy of much of the published work. Included in the
scientific deficiencies are an overemphasis on clinical case
histories that ignore the large majority of women who
terminate unwanted pregnancies and never seek post-operative
mental health consultation; the absence of standardized
follow-up procedures; failure to reach consensus on
diagnostic psychological criteria; or disagreement on
psychological variables related to the sociocultural context
within which the abortion decision occurs. Differing
political, moral, ethical and religious perspectives impinge
on how abortion is perceived by diverse observers.
Post-abortion trauma was initially described by Rue1 as a
variant of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
Subsequently it has been asserted that in 1987 the American
Psychiatric Association acknowledged in its newly revised
manual of diagnostic criteria, the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders III-R (DSM-III-R)
that abortion is a type of 'psychosocial stressor.' However,
the American Psychiatric Association never published a
statement suggesting this. Neither the 1987 nor the 1994
revision of the APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM
III-R and IV) mention abortion in relation to post-traumatic
stress disorder. Indeed, the only mention of abortion in DSM
IV is spontaneous abortion.
As defined by the APA, PTSD is a disabling condition
'following exposure to an extreme traumatic stressor
involving direct personal experience of an event that
involves actual or threatened death or serious injury'.
Likely stressors cited by APA as examples of PTSD include
military combat, violent personal assault, terrorist attack,
and being held hostage. It is quite a stretch to claim
abortion as a stressor likely to induce PTSD.
Usdin2, one of the major developers of the concept of post-
traumatic stress disorder noted that one of the criteria for
PTSD is experiencing 'an event that is outside the range of
usual human experience and that would be markedly
distressing to almost anyone.' Considering that more than 30
million women in the USA and four million women in the UK
have experienced abortion since its legalisation it can
hardly be said that the abortion experience is outside the
range of usual human experience. There has been no reported
increase in public or private mental health services for
women attributing their current psychological problems to
abortion.
The rationale for post-abortion syndrome (PAS) was developed
by A C Speckhard in 1985 in an unpublished thesis based on
interviews with 30 women recruited for her doctoral
dissertation in sociology at the University of Minnesota.
The women had been recruited because they deemed their
abortion experience to have been 'highly stressful'. The
time between the retrospective account and the most recent
abortion varied from one to 25 years. Both legal and
clandestine abortions were included. 46 per cent of the
sample had second trimester abortions and four per cent
experienced third trimester terminations, both known to be
more psychologically stressful than first trimester
procedures. Whereas over 90 per cent of all women having
abortions in 1990 had them in the first trimester, only 50
per cent of Speckhard's sample reported first trimester
abortions. More than nine out of 10 (92 per cent) of the
women recalled feelings of anger, hostility or rage toward
individuals (including partner, medical professionals and
significant others) who were perceived as having been
coercive in the abortion decision-making process. Moreover,
96 per cent of the subjects 'regarded abortion as the taking
of a life or as murder,' an observation very likely to
heighten feelings of guilt and perceptions of stress.
Speckhard later cautioned readers that 'the generalisability
of the results is severely limited by the size of the sample
and the sampling methodology,' adding that 'the results
presented do not necessarily apply to all women who have
abortions, or even to that proportion of women who are
highly stressed following abortion.' It was indeed an
atypical sample.
Recognising the political, ethical and moral issues
intertwined with abortion and in response to questions
raised in the United States Congress about the medical and
mental health effects of abortion, the American
Psychological Association, in 1989, convened an expert panel
to examine psychological factors. The panel's mission was
not to assess values but to consider the best available
evidence on psychological responses to abortion. It focused
on studies with the most rigorous research designs,
reporting findings on the psychological status of women who
had legal abortions under non-restrictive circumstances,
that is, on request in the first trimester and not solely on
grounds of physical or mental health.
The panel found that psychological distress is generally
greatest before the abortion when the woman has to decide
how to resolve an unwanted pregnancy. Responses after
abortion reflect the range of psychological experience and
the resources a woman has for coping with negative life
events. While there may be temporary sensations of regret,
sadness or guilt the weight of the evidence indicates that
legal abortion of an unwanted pregnancy in the first
trimester does not pose a severe psychological hazard for
the vast majority of women. Indeed, most women report
experiencing a feeling of reliefpof anxiety lifted.
A longer term study3 found that the wellbeing of 773 women,
interviewed annually in a national sample of 5,295 women,
was unrelated to their abortion experience eight years
earlier. Women who had had an abortion had a statistically
significant higher global self-esteem rating than women who
had never had an abortion. This difference was even greater
when comparing aborting women with those delivering unwanted
pregnancies (who had the lowest self-esteem). Women who had
experienced repeat abortions did not differ in self-esteem
from women who had never had an abortion. In all, the
evidence confirmed earlier findings that factors other than
the abortion experience itself determine post abortion
emotional status, particularly how a woman perceives her
pregnancy and how she believes it to be perceived in her
immediate social environment. Some women continually
reconstruct and reinterpret past events in the light of
subsequent experience and can be pressured into feeling
guilt and shame long afterwards.
Denmark offers unique opportunities for research in
reproductive health because it has a uniform national
population registration system that provides access to
national abortion, birth and admission to psychiatric
hospital registers. Linkage among these registers makes it
possible to compare the risks of psychiatric hospital
admission following abortion and childbirth. However,
because there may be a bias against hospitalising a new
mother, particularly if she is nursing, the relative
psychological risk of abortion compared with childbirth may
be exaggerated by using hospital admission as an operational
indicator of psychiatric illness.
Controlling for previous psychiatric history, first time
psychiatric hospital admissions were tracked three months
post-abortion and postpartum and for all other women
experiencing no fertility event under age 50 residing in
Denmark. Data were obtained on 27,234 women terminating
pregnancy, 71,378 women carrying to term and the total
population of 1,169,819 women 15-49 years old.4
Among women who were married or living in a stable partner
relationship, the post-pregnancy risk of admission to a
psychiatric hospital was about the same for abortions or
deliveries: approximately 1.3 per 1,000 abortions and 1.2
per 1,000 deliveries. While the difference between rates for
abortions and deliveries was not statistically significant,
the rate for the total population of women was considerably
lower (0.7 per 1,000). Among a smaller group of separated,
divorced or widowed women, those who had terminated
pregnancies showed a substantially higher psychiatric
admission rate (6.4 per 1,000) than did separated, divorced
or widowed women carrying to term (1.7 per 1,000). Women who
are divorced, separated or widowed may be relatively more
likely to be terminating pregnancies that were originally
intended, placing them at higher risk for negative post-
abortion psychological reactions. However, in the aggregate,
there appeared to be little risk to psychological wellbeing
after either abortion or delivery in Denmark.
In a longer term (up to 11 years) prospective cohort study5
of 13,261 women, organised jointly by the Royal Colleges of
Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and of General
Practitioners in the United Kingdom, there were four
comparison groups: 6,151 women who did not request abortion,
6,410 who obtained an abortion, 379 whose request for
abortion was denied, and 371 who requested an abortion and
then changed their minds.
Among the study's key findings were that (a) among women
with equivalent past psychiatric histories there were no
significant differences between the comparison groups in
overall rates of psychiatric illness; (b) women with a
previous history of psychosis were more likely to experience
a psychotic episode during the period of the study than
those who had no such history and that termination of
pregnancy did not appear to increase the risk; (c) women
with a past history of non-psychotic disorder or no history
of psychiatric disorder who had a termination were
significantly less likely to have a psychotic episode than
those who did not request a termination; and (d) in women
with no previous history of psychosis the risk of psychosis
after termination appeared to be lower than after
childbirth.
The authors note that many women were lost to follow-up
during the study and that at the end just 2,122 (34.4 per
cent) of the termination group and 3,000 (42.4 per cent) of
those who did not request a termination were still under
observation but that comparisons between the groups were
still valid.
Severe psychological reactions after abortion are
infrequent. Psychoses are very uncommon, being reported in
only 0.3 to 1.2 per 1,000 legal abortions. Individual case
studies and anecdotal reports of severe stress or
psychopathology following abortion abound in some of the
literature but there is no clear evidence of causal linkage
to abortion. While such responses can be emotionally
overwhelming for the woman concerned and for her family, the
number of such cases is very small, and has been
characterised by former US Surgeon General C Everett Koop as
'minuscule from a public health perspective'. Women
identified in the research literature as being at some risk
for negative psychological reactionspand in potential need
of special counsellingpare those who terminate a very much
wanted pregnancy for medical reasons; lack support from
partners or parents for their decision; were coerced into
making a decision they subsequently regretted; are
conflicted about deeply held religious values; are uncertain
of their coping abilities beforehand; blame themselves for
the pregnancy; delay into the second trimester or had a
previous psychiatric episode.
For the vast majority of women, an abortion will be followed
by a mixture of emotions, with a predominance of positive
feelings. This holds immediately after abortion and for some
time afterward. Little is known about very long term effects
beyond 10 years. However, the positive picture reported up
to eight years after abortion makes it unlikely that more
negative responses will emerge later. Severe negative
reactions are rare. The time of greatest stress is likely to
be before the abortion decision is made. In all, evidence
from the research literature suggests that, in the
aggregate, legal abortion of an unwanted pregnancy in the
first trimester does not pose a psychological hazard for
most women. They tend to cope successfully and go on with
their lives. There is, as yet, no credible evidence for the
existence of post-abortion syndrome.
------------------------------------------------------------
1Rue VM. Abortion and family relations, Testimony presented
before the Subcommittee on the Constitution, US Senate
Judiciary Committee, US Senate, 97th Congress, Washington DC
1981. 2Usdin G. Psychiatry, letters, February 1990. 3Russo
NF, Zierk KL. Abortion, childbearing and women's well-being,
Professional Psychology: Research and Practice 1992, 23:
269-280. 4David HP. Post-abortion and postpartum psychiatric
hospitalisation in R Porter and M O'Connor (eds) Abortion:
Medical progress and social implications Ciba Symposium No
45 London, Pitman 1985,150-161. 5Gilchrist AC, Hannaford PC,
Frank P, Kay CR. Termination of pregnancy and psychiatric
morbidity, British Journal of Psychiatry 1995, 167: 243-248.
------------------------------------------------------------
Prepared for presentation at the international conference on
abortion, Abortion Matters, in Amsterdam, The Netherlands,
27-29 March 1996. An expanded, fully referenced version of
this paper is available from Birth Control Trust.
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer)
The Bible says that most sinners do not experience guilt and depression
regarding their sins.
Irrelevant. In the US religion is not a basis for forcing a course of
action or behavior on another. That is illegal. Plus that particular
source, in addition to being unsupported and unproven, is meaningless
to the majority of the world.
God condemns such unrepentant sinners.
Prove any god exists.
.
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| User: "Paulo Joe Jingy" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 03:07:40 AM |
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Attila wrote:
On 30 Nov 2005 05:58:14 -0800, in alt.abortion
The aborted baby does not suffer depression because the aborted baby is
dead via murder.
Not if you are speaking English and talking about anywhere abortion is
legal. Murder requires an illegal component. Without this illegal
component an act can no more be murder than a hamburger can be a
hamburger without meat or a cow be a cow without four legs and bovine
DNA.
It is impossible for a legal act to be illegal - it simply cannot
happen, To talk as if it can is to dishonestly foster a lie and
deception, as well as clearly indicating the audience is too dumb to
know what is being said.
Hitler did not feel guilt / depression about his murdering millions of
people; in fact, Hitler claimed such murder was justified and he was
proud of it.
But every person killed by the Nazi government was born alive.
Oh -- "born alive"! Good golly, that must be the "magic formula". As
opposed, I suppose, to killing them "one instant" before they were
"born alive". Which would obviously be perfectly fine. I mean that
person hasn't been "born alive" yet has it?
Did you ever study basic biology?
Question: What "magic" do you suppose happens between the instant just
before a human being is born and the instant just after that human
being is born?
Of course, according to your "logic" if the Nazi government didn't
classify the "killing" of Jews as murder than it couldn't *possibly* be
murder, right? After all "It is impossible for a legal act to be
illegal - it simply cannot happen."
Did the Nazis prosecute themselves because they "killed" Jews? (Let's
be careful and not use the word "murder", because, "It is impossible
for a legal act to be illegal - it simply cannot happen".) I don't
think they did prosecute themselves for "killing" Jews, did they?
.
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| User: "Spartakus" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 10:57:11 AM |
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"Paulo Joe Jingy" <dblizz@gmail.com> wrote...
Attila wrote:
Hitler did not feel guilt / depression about his murdering millions of
people; in fact, Hitler claimed such murder was justified and he was
proud of it.
But every person killed by the Nazi government was born alive.
Oh -- "born alive"! Good golly, that must be the "magic formula". As
opposed, I suppose, to killing them "one instant" before they were
"born alive". Which would obviously be perfectly fine. I mean that
person hasn't been "born alive" yet has it?
Can you document *one* instance where a fetus was killed just moments before
live birth. If you can't, just shut the ***** up.
Did you ever study basic biology?
*snicker*
Question: What "magic" do you suppose happens between the instant just
before a human being is born and the instant just after that human
being is born?
Well, an opening within the fetus's heart closes, changing it from a
two-chamber to a four-chamber heart, and the fetus' blood circulation
completely reverses direction. Otherwise, it's not magic at all - the fetus
physically separates from its mother and begins to breathe on its own. It
becomes a separate human organism.
"Basic biology", indeed!
Of course, according to your "logic" if the Nazi government didn't
classify the "killing" of Jews as murder than it couldn't *possibly* be
murder, right? After all "It is impossible for a legal act to be
illegal - it simply cannot happen."
Actually, the killing of Jews *was* murder in Nazi Germany. What the Nazis
did was illegal under German law. That's why they took such pains to keep
their genocide secret.
Did the Nazis prosecute themselves because they "killed" Jews? (Let's
be careful and not use the word "murder", because, "It is impossible
for a legal act to be illegal - it simply cannot happen".) I don't
think they did prosecute themselves for "killing" Jews, did they?
After the war, those Germans who could be found who participated in
exterminating Jews were arrested and prosecuted under existing German law.
Read up on the Nuremburg trials sometime.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 08:51:00 AM |
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On 1 Dec 2005 01:07:40 -0800, "Paulo Joe Jingy" <dblizz@gmail.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<1133428059.989782.192420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Attila wrote:
On 30 Nov 2005 05:58:14 -0800, in alt.abortion
The aborted baby does not suffer depression because the aborted baby is
dead via murder.
Not if you are speaking English and talking about anywhere abortion is
legal. Murder requires an illegal component. Without this illegal
component an act can no more be murder than a hamburger can be a
hamburger without meat or a cow be a cow without four legs and bovine
DNA.
It is impossible for a legal act to be illegal - it simply cannot
happen, To talk as if it can is to dishonestly foster a lie and
deception, as well as clearly indicating the audience is too dumb to
know what is being said.
Hitler did not feel guilt / depression about his murdering millions of
people; in fact, Hitler claimed such murder was justified and he was
proud of it.
But every person killed by the Nazi government was born alive.
Oh -- "born alive"! Good golly, that must be the "magic formula".
There is nothing magic about it. Any more than there is something
magic that occurs when anyone qualifies for anything based upon age.
As
opposed, I suppose, to killing them "one instant" before they were
"born alive". Which would obviously be perfectly fine. I mean that
person hasn't been "born alive" yet has it?
No, it hasn't. And it is not a person.
Did you ever study basic biology?
Yes. But this is not a biological issue. It is a legal question.
Question: What "magic" do you suppose happens between the instant just
before a human being is born and the instant just after that human
being is born?
No magic, and no human being exists before live birth. There is a
human being after live birth just as there is a minor at 11:59PM the
day before someone is 21 and no minor one minute later.
As far as physical changes are concerned:
part of an article Bruce Forest posted
to this newsgroup in December of 1998:
cut here 8<===============================================
Birth involves far more immediate, dramatic physiological
change in the fetus than merely where the nutrients and
oxygen come from. These profound changes are a reason that I
consider birth to be an 'initiation' to air-breathing
'personhood.' For example you mention 'method of getting
nutrition and oxygen changes because of the change in
environment' Do you have any idea of the massive changes
necessary to accomplish this? Let me just address
circulation a bit, and leave the even more profound
respiratory and digestive changes for another time... I
think you'll regard birth as even more miraculous when you
understand what an amazing physiological event it is, and
what awesome changes happen at that moment!
At birth, two major events happen that radically alter fetal
hemodynamics; (1) ligation of the umbilical cord causes a
huge, though transient rise in arterial pressure, and (2) a
rise in plasma C02 and fall in blood P02 help to initiate
regular breathing.
With the first few breaths, the intrathoracic (internal
chest cavity) pressure remains low; after distension of the
airways, assuming sufficient surfactant, the pressure
quickly rises to that of an adult..(-7 to -8 mmHg). Pressure
in the pulmonary artery falls by 50%, but pressure in the
atrium immediately doubles or even triples.
In the fetus, the high resistance of the pulmonary bed (the
capillaries that exchange oxygen in the working lung) causes
most of the deoxygenated blood in the pulmonary artery to
rush into the descending aorta via a vessel present only in
the fetus called the ductus arteriosus. At birth, the first
expansion of the lungs forces all the blood in the right
ventricle into the pulmonary artery for the first time.
Furthermore, increased systemic arterial pressure actually
reverses the flow through the ductus arteriosus! Now,
neonatal blood flows from the high-pressure aorta to the low
pressure pulmonary artery.
The massive increase in the left arterial pressure would,
before birth, result in a fatal backflow of blood into the
right heart through the patent (open) foramen ovale. (An
oval opening in the atrial septum that we all have before
birth.) However, (and this is cool..) the anatomical
configuration of the foramen is such that a valvelike fold
in the left atrial wall automatically closes the foramen
(hopefully) on the first pulse of reversed blood. That
always amazes me.
The neonatal circulation changes at birth complete with
closure of the ductus arteriosus and foramen ovale, but some
minor adjustments continue for 1-2 months, until the adult
phase begins.
Fetal circulatory adaptions that disappear at birth....
Umbilical vein...Carries oxygenated blood from placenta to
fetus
Ductus venosus...Conducts about half the blood from the
umbilical vein directly to the inferior vena cava, thus
bypassing the liver
Foramen Ovale...Conveys large proportion of blood entering -
the right atrium from the inferior vena cava, through the
atrial septum and into the left atrium, thus bypassing the
lungs
Ductus Arteriosus...Conducts some blood from the pulmonary
artery to the aorta, thus bypassing the lungs
Umbilical arteries...Carry blood from the internal iliac
arteries to the placenta for reoxygenation
Immediately following birth, the umbilical vessels
constrict. The arteries close first, and if the umbilical
cord is not clamped or severed for a minute or so, blood
continues to flow from the placenta to the newborn through
the umbilical vein, adding to the newborn's blood volume.
The proximal portions of the umbilical arteries persist in
the adult as the superior vesical arteries that supply blood
to the urinary bladder. The more distal portions become
solid cords (lateral umbilical ligaments.) The umbilical
vein becomes the cordlike ligamentum teres that extends from
the umbilicus to the liver in an adult. Similarly, the
ductus venosus constricts shortly after birth and is
represented in the adult as a fibrous cord (ligamentum
venosum), which is superficially embedded in the wall of the
liver.
So, to summarize, the hemodynamics of the immediate newborn
and term fetus differ in these major ways, and many more
minor ones...ALL abruptly changing at the moment of birth:
(1) arterial and venous blood no longer mix in the atria;
(2)the vena cava now carries only deoxygenated blood into
the right atrium, where it goes into the right ventricle,
and then is pumped to the pulmonary arteries, and finally to
the pulmonary capillary bed , and ; (3) the aorta now
carries only oxygenated blood from the left heart via the
pulmonary veins for distribution to the rest of the body.
The 'pipework' is still mostly there, but what enormous
changes have taken place in a few short seconds!
So, I'd appreciate if we didn't say that the immediate
newborn and term fetus are almost identical, because they
just aren't. The digestive changes alone would be ten times
the length of this very basic circulatory primer, and the
respiratory chemistry changes at the instant of birth could
fill a book.
cut here 8<================================================
He listed as sources:
_Gray's Anatomy_ 15th Edition; 1995
_Human Anatomy and Physiology_, Second Edition, John W. Hole
jr. 1988 Wm C. Brown Co.
_Current Obstetric and Gynecologic Diagnosis and Treatment_
8th Ed, DeCherney, Pernoll 1994
Posted by Pat Winstanley <ng_wisy@yahoo.co.uk>
Of course, according to your "logic" if the Nazi government didn't
classify the "killing" of Jews as murder than it couldn't *possibly* be
murder, right?
That is correct. But they did not legally enact the proposed laws.
Plus they lost a war, and the winner always imposes his standards on
the loser.
After all "It is impossible for a legal act to be
illegal - it simply cannot happen."
The act can happen but it cannot be illegal.
Did the Nazis prosecute themselves because they "killed" Jews? (Let's
be careful and not use the word "murder", because, "It is impossible
for a legal act to be illegal - it simply cannot happen".) I don't
think they did prosecute themselves for "killing" Jews, did they?
Why should they?
.
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| User: "Martin McPhillips" |
|
| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 09:08:39 AM |
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"Attila" <prochoice@here.now> wrote in message
news:d33uo1dg3k35umbtm9iio21e2vjvqojv2o@4ax.com...
On 1 Dec 2005 01:07:40 -0800, "Paulo Joe Jingy"
<dblizz@gmail.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<1133428059.989782.192420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
wrote:
Attila wrote:
On 30 Nov 2005 05:58:14 -0800, in
alt.abortion
The aborted baby does not suffer depression because the
aborted baby is
dead via murder.
Not if you are speaking English and talking about
anywhere abortion is
legal. Murder requires an illegal component. Without
this illegal
component an act can no more be murder than a hamburger
can be a
hamburger without meat or a cow be a cow without four
legs and bovine
DNA.
It is impossible for a legal act to be illegal - it
simply cannot
happen, To talk as if it can is to dishonestly foster a
lie and
deception, as well as clearly indicating the audience is
too dumb to
know what is being said.
Hitler did not feel guilt / depression about his
murdering millions of
people; in fact, Hitler claimed such murder was
justified and he was
proud of it.
But every person killed by the Nazi government was born
alive.
Oh -- "born alive"! Good golly, that must be the "magic
formula".
There is nothing magic about it. Any more than there is
something
magic that occurs when anyone qualifies for anything based
upon age.
As
opposed, I suppose, to killing them "one instant" before
they were
"born alive". Which would obviously be perfectly fine. I
mean that
person hasn't been "born alive" yet has it?
No, it hasn't. And it is not a person.
Of course it's a person. There's no duality in
a human life such as person/non-person. It's
one life, one person, from conception to
death. Every inherent element of personhood
is present from conception.
There's no justification for killing an unborn
child with the exception of saving the life
of the mother. The only ethical time for
deciding to have a child or not is before
conceiving one.
.
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 05:17:01 PM |
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"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
Every inherent element of personhood
is present from conception.
What are the inherent elements of personhood?
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "Martin McPhillips" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 05:23:53 PM |
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"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:et0vo1t3jhhovnat9f0bq3oqrihdna6uks@4ax.com...
"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
Every inherent element of personhood
is present from conception.
What are the inherent elements of personhood?
Most particularly the elements of intelligence
and personality that are genetic, which would
include the way the person will think or smile
or communicate and generally engage in and
absorb experience.
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 05:56:16 PM |
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"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:et0vo1t3jhhovnat9f0bq3oqrihdna6uks@4ax.com...
"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
Every inherent element of personhood
is present from conception.
What are the inherent elements of personhood?
Most particularly the elements of intelligence
and personality that are genetic, which would
include the way the person will think or smile
or communicate and generally engage in and
absorb experience.
So, basically, as soon as the DNA from the male links up with the DNA
from the female, its a person.
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "Martin McPhillips" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 06:32:48 PM |
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"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:qn2vo1tes78i3n2vldeipejavl9671kbm1@4ax.com...
"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:et0vo1t3jhhovnat9f0bq3oqrihdna6uks@4ax.com...
"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
Every inherent element of personhood
is present from conception.
What are the inherent elements of personhood?
Most particularly the elements of intelligence
and personality that are genetic, which would
include the way the person will think or smile
or communicate and generally engage in and
absorb experience.
So, basically, as soon as the DNA from the male links up
with the DNA
from the female, its a person.
That's when and how each new life begins, and that's
when it begins to dynamically unfold. And each new
human life is an individual and personal life.
There is no person/non-person duality. *Your*
life began that way. *My* life began that
way. *We* are the persons who would have
been killed had we been aborted.
Life gets very cheap indeed when a society
turns its back on that, or when
individuals get together and turn their backs
on it by insisting that it's nothing at
all.
Abortion is a *grievously* evil and immoral
act.
.
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 06:41:35 PM |
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"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:qn2vo1tes78i3n2vldeipejavl9671kbm1@4ax.com...
"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:et0vo1t3jhhovnat9f0bq3oqrihdna6uks@4ax.com...
"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
Every inherent element of personhood
is present from conception.
What are the inherent elements of personhood?
Most particularly the elements of intelligence
and personality that are genetic, which would
include the way the person will think or smile
or communicate and generally engage in and
absorb experience.
So, basically, as soon as the DNA from the male links up
with the DNA
from the female, its a person.
That's when and how each new life begins, and that's
when it begins to dynamically unfold. And each new
human life is an individual and personal life.
There is no person/non-person duality. *Your*
life began that way. *My* life began that
way. *We* are the persons who would have
been killed had we been aborted.
Agreed.
Life gets very cheap indeed when a society
turns its back on that, or when
individuals get together and turn their backs
on it by insisting that it's nothing at
all.
There are many ways that life is cheapened.
Abortion is a *grievously* evil and immoral
act.
I hold the each already-born human's right to decide what is inside
their own body in higher esteem than I do the rights of a fertilized
human egg.
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "Martin McPhillips" |
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| Title: Re: Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie Debunked) |
01 Dec 2005 09:01:08 PM |
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"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:bk5vo1dtoutc7aip9ftidvcmurt58ikoer@4ax.com...
"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:qn2vo1tes78i3n2vldeipejavl9671kbm1@4ax.com...
"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:et0vo1t3jhhovnat9f0bq3oqrihdna6uks@4ax.com...
"Martin McPhillips" <nospam@nospam.com> said:
Every inherent element of personhood
is present from conception.
What are the inherent elements of personhood?
Most particularly the elements of intelligence
and personality that are genetic, which would
include the way the person will think or smile
or communicate and generally engage in and
absorb experience.
So, basically, as soon as the DNA from the male links up
with the DNA
from the female, its a person.
That's when and how each new life begins, and that's
when it begins to dynamically unfold. And each new
human life is an individual and personal life.
There is no person/non-person duality. *Your*
life began that way. *My* life began that
way. *We* are the persons who would have
been killed had we been aborted.
Agreed.
Life gets very cheap indeed when a society
turns its back on that, or when
individuals get together and turn their backs
on it by insisting that it's nothing at
all.
There are many ways that life is cheapened.
Abortion is a *grievously* evil and immoral
act.
I hold t | | | | | | | | | | | |
