Ray Fischer wrote:

Bill Bonde ('Soli Deo Gloria') <John.Methuen@magersfontein.co.uk>
wrote:

Ray Fischer wrote:

osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

Ray Fischer wrote:

osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

Here are some links for you:

Take note: There has been nothing science has been able to
offer that refutes these experiences. All they have are their
own opinions.

People will notice that all of these start with a pitch to sell
a book and none appear to have any independant verification.

Those who were brain dead and experienced NDE
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

People See Verified Events
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence02.html

I found this next link interesting
Cases involving reincarnation
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/reincarnation.html

People see what they want to see.

Oh, so you are suggesting that a person who is clinically brain
dead can control what they see.

A person is clinically brain dead is dead and doesn't see
anything.

They rot.

You really can't know what they see.

THEY ARE DEAD! A pile of rotting meat. The intellect of a
hamburger. Deceased. Pushing up daisies. Worm food.

Their corporeal essence is reduced to that, perhaps, but you cannot
address the potential of an after-life from your current state.

Ray Fischer wrote:

Bill Bonde ('Soli Deo Gloria') <John.Methuen@magersfontein.co.uk> wrote:

Ray Fischer wrote:

osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

Ray Fischer wrote:

osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

Here are some links for you:

Take note: There has been nothing science has been able to offer that
refutes these experiences. All they have are their own opinions.

People will notice that all of these start with a pitch to sell a book
and none appear to have any independant verification.

Those who were brain dead and experienced NDE
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

People See Verified Events
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence02.html

I found this next link interesting
Cases involving reincarnation
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/reincarnation.html

People see what they want to see.

Oh, so you are suggesting that a person who is clinically brain dead
can control what they see.

A person is clinically brain dead is dead and doesn't see anything.

They rot.

You really can't know what they see.

THEY ARE DEAD! A pile of rotting meat. The intellect of a
hamburger. Deceased. Pushing up daisies. Worm food.

Their corporeal essence is reduced to that, perhaps, but you cannot
address the potential of an after-life from your current state.

In article <43C9CEF7.2D2470F@Il.Postino.it>, 'Soli Deo Gloria'
<Pablo.Neruda@Il.Postino.it> wrote:

"David W. Barnes" wrote:

In article <43C9B15B.8109D1D1@Il.Postino.it>, 'Soli Deo Gloria'
<Pablo.Neruda@Il.Postino.it> wrote:

"David W. Barnes" wrote:

In article <43C97BC9.DB45265A@Il.Postino.it>, 'Soli Deo Gloria'
<Pablo.Neruda@Il.Postino.it> wrote:

"David W. Barnes" wrote:

Of every NDE case in which the person reports seeing people on the
other
side, they always report seeing people that they knew in life
that had
already passed on. If this was an "illusion", why don't they
report
seeing
people still living?

Because they expect to see the dead. How tough is that?

That's not a theory though, that's just some supposition.

As is yours.

Really? What did I claim?

If you aren't claiming anything, what are we talking about.

I've been discussing the means by which humans use defence mechanisms to
protect themselves from the feelings caused by knowing they will
eventually all die. One of those mechanisms is the Angry Atheist, Yang
being a prime example.

And you believe NDE is a defense mechanism?

Are you saying
that everyone who has a near death experience involving seeing people,
and then comes back and reports it, has in fact only claimed to see
those who have already died?

Absolutely. The first thing you need to remember is, they were never
dead. If you "come back" you were not dead.

But what does "dead" mean? If there is an after life, how do you know
that the process of going there doesn't occur while it is still possible
sometimes to bring the body and then your "spirit" back?

No brain activity.

What happens in the brain if you freeze and greatly cool someone?

Brain activity.

Doesn't brain activity stop in such cases?

Nope. Unless you die.

I don't believe there has
ever been a case where someone was "clinically dead" where they "came
back." Yes- hearts stop. Breathing stops. But the brain continues.
As such, it can dream, hallucinate, etc.

How would you come back if your brain cells were destroyed?

You wouldn't. My point exactly.

Which means that it is possible that people imagine the tunnel and the
conversations with the dead people but that isn't evidence that they do.

My point exactly. But which do you suppose is most likely? Oxygen
starvation causes hallucinations, which we know happens, or meeting
ghosts?

Why see people long dead and not people who are alive?

Because your EXPECT to see only dead people.

I never really thought of it.

Of course you have. You are discussing it.

I remember that
in Babylon 5 and Deep Space 9, they would have hallucinates in which the
other living members of the crew would tell them things. Why wouldn't
people who are alive tell you things in a similar way as you began the
process of dying and then you might come back and then would report
that? Why long dead people?

Because you think you have died and gone to "the other side." (Where
there are only dead people.)

But that isn't what happens in dreams (or in those two TV shows when
people hallucinated). So I wonder if people really only think they can
talk to dead people when they die.

Well, notwithstanding Babylon 5 and Deep Space 9, many people believe
that when they die they go heaven, meet their dead parents, etc. What
a shock that when they believe they are dying, or believe they are
dead, they hallucinate these manifestations.

And of all those people, how many have
really thought ahead of time about how they might see a tunnel and a
light and the people would only be already dead people?

Except that most don't see the tunnel. Some do - they expect it, or
the chemical reactions cause it.

More supposition?

Common sense. Besides, what are you saying? That since we don't know
for certain anything goes?

No, just that it is possible and you haven't proved it not possible.

I never said it is not possible. It is also possible that we are all
martians who have been programmed to believe we are from earth, too.
But I'd say that is unlikely as well. The point is, the fact that
something is possible is no reason to believe it.

We have evidence of
oxygen deprivation hallucinations. We have no evidence of life after
death, and the evidence, as well as common sense, tells us life after
death is unlikely.

Or are their
brains making this all up in a way that is logical --after all how
could
you talk to people beyond the grave who were not already beyond the
grave?-- while in the process of the rather traumatic experience of
dying?

The idea that these "people" are "beyond the grave" has never been
established, and there is no evidence whatsoever that they are there.
The most obvious explanation is the starving brain imagines it.

How about the starving brain hallucinates all that you see when you are
alive as well?

I think, therefore I am. - René Descartes

That's an insisted assumption. If you don't assume that you exist and
that there is a world around you that exists, you can't investigate it.

How do you know that you aren't the only being extant in
the universe and you are hooked up to some sort of matrix to facilitate
the rest?

So anything goes.

There is no evidence to disprove that matrix idea. We have to assume we
aren't in the perfect matrix. If it is a "perfect" matrix, does it even
matter whether we are in it or the "real" world or not?

Again, you are suggesting that anything goes. You suggestion is
unlikely.

Wouldn't you be more likely to reach for more current memories at
this point than the image of someone long deceased that you can't
hardly
remember the face of while you are alive and healthy and under no
pressure at all?

Not at all. I have dreams when I sleep. I am often amazed at how I
dream of things that happened long ago. Childhood memories, etc. The
human brain has all kinds of things going on in it. I suspect, we all
remember everything we have ever experienced, to one degree or another.
It just takes a trigger to set it free. Sometimes it is a comment from
someone, sometimes a smell, a visual image, etc.

But why see these long dead people at the instant of death and not
someone seen more recently who might also be as important to you?

Because you EXPECT to see the dead!

That's your supposition.

Common sense vs. wild speculation? I'll take common sense any day.

"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 02:38:01 GMT, "David W. Barnes" <dbarnes@aol.com>
wrote:

In article <43C9B15B.8109D1D1@Il.Postino.it>, 'Soli Deo Gloria'
<Pablo.Neruda@Il.Postino.it> wrote:

But why see these long dead people at the instant of death and not
someone seen more recently who might also be as important to you?

Because you EXPECT to see the dead!

Whiner Bill Bonde still at it? Talk about having an insecure faith!

I never claimed to have any faith. I'm discussing you. You are the Angry
Atheist.

I'm not trying to take away your means of protecting yourself
from the realization that you will die, I'm just wondering why you are
trying to do that to people with religious faith.



--
"He named his second child Jim after the horse that had brought him to
Washington. He caught his son one day writing 'James' on his lessons,
and he told the boy without raising his voice that if he had wanted to
name him 'James', that is what he would have done." -+Edward P. Jones,
"The Known World"

"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 02:38:01 GMT, "David W. Barnes" <dbarnes@aol.com>
wrote:

In article <43C9B15B.8109D1D1@Il.Postino.it>, 'Soli Deo Gloria'
<Pablo.Neruda@Il.Postino.it> wrote:

But why see these long dead people at the instant of death and not
someone seen more recently who might also be as important to you?

Because you EXPECT to see the dead!

Whiner Bill Bonde still at it? Talk about having an insecure faith!

I never claimed to have any faith. I'm discussing you. You are the Angry
Atheist.