"The Re"vvrdd" <regggie@unglican.com.za> wrote in message
news:45c9ecad.41059540@news.onetel.net.uk...

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:46:35 +0000 (UTC),

On 4-Feb-2007, "Dan Kimmel" <daniel.kimmel@rcn.com> wrote:

<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:eq5bu6$d8n$1@falcon.steinthal.us...

On 31-Jan-2007, "Dan Kimmel" <daniel.kimmel@rcn.com> wrote:

<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:epqqhq$6cu$1@falcon.steinthal.us...

On 31-Jan-2007, "Dan Kimmel" <daniel.kimmel@rcn.com> wrote:

<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:epq81v$pki$1@falcon.steinthal.us...

On 30-Jan-2007, "Joel Shurkin" <jshurkin@gmail.com> wrote:

If
you are sure in what you believe, they pose no threat.

Which doesn't excuse their behavior.

Why does their behavior need to be excused?

Mainly because it's rude and bigots.

No, it most certainly is not.

Of course it is.
How can it not be?
You have said *nothing* show that it isn't what I have said - all
you have said is that "they are allowed." That's absolutely not
the same thing.

You have said nothing to show it is rude and bigoted other than that YOU
don't like it.

Of course I have.
You just have some strange reason for wanting to excuse them.

General outreach to everyone (the JWs) is not at all the
same thing as targeting Jews

IAnd this is how you continually show that you know I am right:
you continually mischaracterize everything I have said.
I have never said that their tactics and manners were the same.
Never.
I have also never said that the only way a person can be a bigot
is if he only hates Jews.

and using all manners of coercion and
depression with the declared goal of specifically getting Jews to
convert.

Again: this has never been what i was discussing.
This has all been your obfuscation of the statement I have made,
because you dislike the facts.

You have posted absolutely nothing other than your own personal
disagreement
to show otherwise.

And this is a flat-out lie, because I have never disgareed with these
specific points you have made.
I have disagreed that they prove any difference other than that of
manners and tactics.
YOU have yet to show that tactics & manners are the ONLY way
the 2 groups differ.

It's something that we, as Jews, have no
interest in,

Which is putting itmildly, but not what this discussion is about.

No answer, I see.

but that doesn't mean they are wrong to engage in their form
of
outreach.

Of course they are.

Stop right there. Why "of course?" Explain why "of course" it is
"wrong."

Sure, I'll be glad to explain it AGAIN.
It is wrong to go around telling other people (especially without them
asking you to do so) "I'm right and you're wrong, and you should
believe the way I do because I want you to". It's rude, arrogant and
bigoted.

When I try to pin you down you claim I'm changing the subject.

This is completely untrue.
You have never tried to "pin me down" - you have always tried to
avoid what I have posted - and by changing the subject from the
point I make above to "tactics and manners", as tho' tactics and
manners" change the above point. They don't.

So,
explain
yourself.

Make sure you listen this time.

Just their being polite, and thinking they are "doing us a favor"
doesnt make them right.
Just because they are allowed to do so doesn't make them right.
I can call you all sorts of disgusting names - off this group, of
course.
The law will uphold my right to do it. Does this make me right?
Of course not.
it may be that you are focusing too much on the legal aspect to
consider the moral one in this instance.

What is "immoral" with seeking converts?

See above.

Not with targeting Jews using
fraudulent means, which we both agree is horrible and ought to be
answered
in the strongest possible terms. But why is such general, non-specfic,
non-coercive, non-fraudulent outreach "immoral" by definition?

See above.

When I'm
asked to sign a petition for a right wing cause, I don't think it's
"immoral" because I disagree with them and would never sign such a
thing.

As if signing apetition is going to make you sin.
As if you (nding up marrying someone who believes the way they do
& having kids destroys your Jewish family right then & there.

I would like other religions NOT to seek Jewish converts.

I would ike them all to mind their own business untilsomeone asks them
otherwise.
I am also

I favor

education
(for Jews) and dialogue (with non-Jews) to achieve this goal. And when
a
religious group specifically targets Jews, even if by legal means, I
think
Jewish groups ought to respond. But what makes it "immoral?"

See above.

Thus far
all
that has been offered is your bald, unsupported assertion.

Only because you have some strange desire to excuse the JWs.
If you don't see anything wrong with wanting Jews to disappear,
even if they aren't specifically targeted, fine. but I do.
As well as finding it rude arrogant & BIGOTED to GO AROUND
to people - even non-Jews! - UNINVITED trying to make them
believe as *they* do, just because they think these people should.

It's deception and trickery, like "Jews for Jesus" or the
Moonies,
that

I

object to.

Good for you.
I hate bigotry in all forms - even if they smile and speak softly.
They still want us to die spiritually, just like the others.

No, that's not it either.

Of course it is- you have yet to explain how it isn;t,
other than you just saying so, and insisting they "have a right."

I see you had noanswer to this, so you must agree that they do want us to
die spiritually.

You're attributing a malignancy to them that
isn't there.

Impossible.
If they do it, it's there.
I want you or anyone else to explain to me how wanting us
to stop being Jews is anything other than bigotry.

No, I want you to first explain why someone seeking converts is a bigot.

See above.
They want us to disappear.
Both groups.
One is just a lot nastier about it.

They think their religious is right and others are wrong (or, more
charitably, not the "whole truth"). Fine, we think they're wrong.

And are we running around handing out literture to them & others saying
so?
Are we sending peope out in droves to their houses?
Are we asking for money door to door so we can keep it up?

They
think we're wrong. As long as we're all free to practice our respective
religions, what's the problem?

The problem is that, if you hadn;t noticed, I hate bigotry, even if it's
"polite".

When a non-Jew converts to Judaism (O, C,
or
R), is that an expression of "bigotry?"

Strawman.
Once again, you ignore the points I am making because you can;t address
them.

If not, what's the difference?

WE DON'T MISSIONIZE.

There are hundreds of Irish missionaries in Africa.

WE DON'T TARGET *ANYONE*

You target schvartzes!

You have to APPRAOCH (sic) US in order to get converted.

No you don't.

WE have RESPECT for *others'* beliefs - THEY DON'T respect OURS.

Who's going to respect a bunch of barefoot Irish boghoppers?

You should head over to the moderated group and take note of her ongoing
battle with kimmell. She completely contraticts herself there, by stating
she has NO respect for other's beliefs. Calls the misionisers "bgiots" in
fact.

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:11:03 -0800, "JBgarbuz" <jgarbuz@netzero.com>
wrote:

"The Re"vvrdd" <regggie@unglican.com.za> wrote in message
news:45c9ecad.41059540@news.onetel.net.uk...

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:46:35 +0000 (UTC),

...

I would like other religions NOT to seek Jewish converts.<<<

It is the DUTY and a "mitzvah" for Christians to try to evangelize. For
them
not to try, is a dereliction of duty. So, all
you have to say is, "Thank you, but no thanks."

I would ike them all to mind their own business untilsomeone asks them
otherwise.<<

You're asking them not to try to carry out one of the most important
"mitzvas" in Christianity, to try to spread the Gospel
and save people by bringing them to Christ. You don't have to get mad or
huffy. You can say what my mother used say, "We worship the Father, not
the
Son." Or better yet, say "Thanks, but no thanks."

I am also

I favor

education
(for Jews) and dialogue (with non-Jews) to achieve this goal. And
when

a

religious group specifically targets Jews, even if by legal means, I

think

Jewish groups ought to respond. But what makes it "immoral?"<<

It's not immoral, but it is wrong to demand a people who nonviolently just
ask you to consider their way of faith, to stop doing what they must do
according to their faith. Just saying, thanks but no thanks shouldn't be
such a hardship. Why antagonize by making an issue of it? It's just like
saying, "Have a nice day." Many people do that all day long and don't
consider doing so an undue hardship. People should just be polite and go
on
their merry way.

Suzy Cohen is (rightly) insecure in her jewdism, being a lapsed
Catholic and the offspring of an excommunicated nun.