Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE



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Topic: Science > Abortion
User: "Bill Case"
Date: 20 Aug 2004 11:15:00 AM
Object: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE
Bush's attack on Kerry's war service is discredited in this article. It
would be good to remember that similar slander attacks have been made on
other veterans (McCain, Cleland) by Bush in his political career to minimize
his own shirking of war duty.
Read on...
" But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth'
prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as
proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's
own statements. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat
Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases,
material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy
records and the men's own statements. "
" In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his
commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral
courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the
second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he
called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged
leader in his peer group." "
" "It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he
said. "He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the scariest
night of my life." "
==========
Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM
RUTENBERG
NY Times August 20, 2004
After weeks of taking fire over veterans' accusations that he had lied about
his Vietnam service record to win medals and build a political career,
Senator John Kerry shot back yesterday, calling those statements
categorically false and branding the people behind them tools of the Bush
campaign.
His decision to take on the group directly was a measure of how the group
that calls itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has catapulted itself to the
forefront of the presidential campaign. It has advanced its cause in a book,
in a television advertisement and on cable news and talk radio shows, all in
an attempt to discredit Mr. Kerry's war record, a pillar of his campaign.
How the group came into existence is a story of how veterans with
longstanding anger about Mr. Kerry's antiwar statements in the early 1970's
allied themselves with Texas Republicans.
Mr. Kerry called them "a front for the Bush campaign" - a charge the
campaign denied.
A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections
to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President
Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove.
Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from
two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political
associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr.
Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped
prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice
president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television
commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad
mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr.
Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.
The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war
hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that
resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift
Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many
cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official
Navy records and the men's own statements.
Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him,
some as recently as last year.
In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized
biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York
Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group,
allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said,
"I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a good
man."
In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003, Mr.
Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver
Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."
George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home
in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough
re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won
Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian
L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry,
supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young
officers that ran the Swift boats."
"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and
cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of
those Swift boat drivers."
Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in
1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not
exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and
decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in
the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed,"
"beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."
The Admiral Calls
It all began last winter, as Mr. Kerry was wrapping up the Democratic
nomination. Mr. Lonsdale received a call at his Massachusetts home from his
old commander in Vietnam, Mr. Hoffmann, asking if he had seen the new
biography of the man who would be president.
Mr. Hoffmann had commanded the Swift boats during the war from a base in Cam
Ranh Bay and advocated a search-and-destroy campaign against the Vietcong -
the kind of tactic Mr. Kerry criticized when he was a spokesman for Vietnam
Veterans Against the War in 1971. Shortly after leaving the Navy in 1978, he
was issued a letter of censure for exercising undue influence on cases in
the military justice system.
Both Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Lonsdale had publicly lauded Mr. Kerry in the
past. But the book, Mr. Brinkley's "Tour of Duty," while it burnished Mr.
Kerry's reputation, portrayed the two men as reckless leaders whose military
approach had led to the deaths of countless sailors and innocent civilians.
Several Swift boat veterans compared Mr. Hoffmann to the bloodthirsty
colonel in the film "Apocalypse Now" - the one who loves the smell of Napalm
in the morning.
The two men were determined to set the record, as they saw it, straight.
"It was the admiral who started it and got the rest of us into it," Mr.
Lonsdale said.
Mr. Hoffmann's phone calls led them to Texas and to John E. O'Neill, who at
one point commanded the same Swift boat in Vietnam, and whose mission
against him dated to 1971, when he had been recruited by the Nixon
administration to debate Mr. Kerry on "The ***** Cavett Show."
Mr. O'Neill, who pressed his charges against Mr. Kerry in numerous
television appearances Thursday, had spent the 33 years since he debated Mr.
Kerry building a successful law practice in Houston, intermingling with some
of the state's most powerful Republicans and building an impressive client
list. Among the companies he represented was Falcon Seaboard, the energy
firm founded by the current lieutenant governor of Texas, David Dewhurst, a
central player in the Texas redistricting plan that has positioned state
Republicans to win more Congressional seats this fall.
Mr. O'Neill said during one of several interviews that he had come to know
two of his biggest donors, Harlan Crow and Bob J. Perry, through longtime
social and business contacts.
Mr. Perry, who has given $200,000 to the group, is the top donor to
Republicans in the state, according to Texans for Public Justice, a
nonpartisan group that tracks political donations. He donated $46,000 to
President Bush's campaigns for governor in 1994 and 1998. In the 2002
election, the group said, he donated nearly $4 million to Texas candidates
and political committees.
Mr. Rove, Mr. Bush's top political aide, recently said through a spokeswoman
that he and Mr. Perry were longtime friends, though he said they had not
spoken for at least a year. Mr. Rove and Mr. Perry have been associates
since at least 1986, when they both worked on the gubernatorial campaign of
Bill Clements.
Mr. O'Neill said he had known Mr. Perry for 30 years. "I've represented many
of his friends,'' Mr. O'Neill said. Mr. Perry did not respond to requests
for comment.
Mr. O'Neill said he had also known Mr. Crow for 30 years, through mutual
friends. Mr. Crow, the seventh-largest donor to Republicans in the state
according to the Texans for Public Justice, has donated nowhere near as much
money as Mr. Perry to the Swift boat group. His family owns one of the
largest diversified commercial real estate companies in the nation, the
Trammell Crow Company, and has given money to Mr. Bush and his father
throughout their careers. He is listed as a trustee of the George Bush
Presidential Library Foundation.
One of his law partners, Margaret Wilson, became Mr. Bush's general counsel
when he was governor of Texas and followed him to the White House as deputy
counsel for the Department of Commerce, according to her biography on the
law firm's Web site.
Another partner, Tex Lezar, ran on the Republican ticket with Mr. Bush in
1994, as lieutenant governor. They were two years apart at Yale, and Mr.
Lezar worked for the attorney general's office in the Reagan administration.
Mr. Lezar, who died last year, was married to Merrie Spaeth, a powerful
public relations executive who has helped coordinate the efforts of Swift
Boat Veterans for Truth.
In 2000, Ms. Spaeth was spokeswoman for a group that ran $2 million worth of
ads attacking Senator John McCain's environmental record and lauding Mr.
Bush's in crucial states during their fierce primary battle. The group,
calling itself Republicans for Clean Air, was founded by a prominent Texas
supporter of Mr. Bush, Sam Wyly.
Ms. Spaeth had been a communications official in the Reagan White House,
where the president's aides had enough confidence in her to invite her to
help prepare George Bush for his vice-presidential debate in 1984. She says
she is also a close friend of Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas, a
client of Mr. Rove's. Ms. Spaeth said in an interview that the one time she
had ever spoken to Mr. Rove was when Ms. Hutchison was running for the Texas
treasurer's office in 1990.
When asked if she had ever visited the White House during Mr. Bush's tenure,
Ms. Spaeth initially said that she had been there only once, in 2002, when
Kenneth Starr gave her a personal tour. But this week Ms. Spaeth
acknowledged that she had spent an hour in the Old Executive Office
Building, part of the White House complex, in the spring of 2003, giving Mr.
Bush's chief economic adviser, Stephen Friedman, public speaking advice.
Asked if it was possible that she had worked with other administration
officials, Ms. Spaeth said, "The answer is 'no,' unless you refresh my
memory.''
"Is the White House directing this?" Ms. Spaeth said of the organization.
"Absolutely not.''
Another participant is the political advertising agency that made the
group's television commercial: Stevens Reed Curcio & Potholm, based in
Alexandria, Va. The agency worked for Senator McCain in 2000 and for Mr.
Bush's father in 1988, when it created the "tank" advertisement mocking Mr.
Dukakis. A spokesman for the Swift boat veterans said the organization
decided to hire the agency after a member saw one of its partners speaking
on television.
About 10 veterans met in Ms. Spaeth's office in Dallas in April to share
outrage and plot their campaign against Mr. Kerry, she and others said. Mr.
Lonsdale, who did not attend, said the meeting had been planned as "an
indoctrination session."
What might have been loose impressions about Mr. Kerry began to harden.
"That was an awakening experience," Ms. Spaeth said. "Not just for me, but
for many of them who had not heard each other's stories."
The group decided to hire a private investigator to investigate Mr.
Brinkley's account of the war - to find "some neutral way of actually
questioning people involved in these incidents,'' Mr. O'Neill said.
But the investigator's questions did not seem neutral to some.
Patrick Runyon, who served on a mission with Mr. Kerry, said he initially
thought the caller was from a pro-Kerry group, and happily gave a statement
about the night Mr. Kerry won his first Purple Heart. The investigator said
he would send it to him by e-mail for his signature. Mr. Runyon said the
edited version was stripped of all references to enemy combat, making it
look like just another night in the Mekong Delta.
"It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he said.
"He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the scariest night
of my life."
By May, the group had the money that Mr. O'Neill had collected as well as
additional veterans rallied by Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Hoffmann and others. The
expanded group gathered in Washington to record the veterans' stories for a
television commercial.
Each veteran's statement was written down as an affidavit and sent to him to
sign and have notarized. But the validity of those affidavits soon came into
question.
Mr. Elliott, who recommended Mr. Kerry for the Silver Star, had signed one
affidavit saying Mr. Kerry "was not forthright" in the statements that had
led to the award. Two weeks ago, The Boston Globe quoted him as saying that
he felt he should not have signed the affidavit. He then signed a second
affidavit that reaffirmed his first, which the Swift Boat Veterans gave to
reporters. Mr. Elliott has refused to speak publicly since then.
The Questions
The book outlining the veterans' charges, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat
Veterans Speak Out Against Kerry," has also come under fire. It is published
by Regnery, a conservative company that has published numerous books
critical of Democrats, and written by Mr. O'Neill and Jerome R. Corsi, who
was identified on the book jacket as a Harvard Ph.D. and the author of many
books and articles. But Mr. Corsi also acknowledged that he has been a
contributor of anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic comments to a
right-wing Web site. He said he regretted those comments.
The group's arguments have foundered on other contradictions. In the
television commercial, Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and declares,
"I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated
him for that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of
shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow - but he and others in the group argue
that it was minor and self-inflicted.
Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for Mr.
Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury, the form is
signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago. Dr. Letson
said it was common for medics to treat sailors with the kind of injury that
Mr. Kerry had and to fill out paperwork when doctors did the treatment.
Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated Mr.
Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for it."
The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr., a retired rear
admiral who says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which
Mr. Kerry was injured that night in December 1968. He contends that Mr.
Kerry wounded himself while firing a grenade.
But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr. Kerry,
Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third crew member.
"Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to three," Mr. Runyon
said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he had not recalled Mr.
Schachte until he had a conversation with another veteran earlier this year
and received a subsequent phone call from Mr. Schachte himself.
Mr. Schachte did not return a telephone call, and a spokesman for the group
said he would not comment.
The Silver Star was awarded after Mr. Kerry's boat came under heavy fire
from shore during a mission in February 1969. According to Navy records, he
turned the boat to charge the Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang
from the shore about 10 feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the
shore, chased the soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a B-40
rocket launcher with a round in the chamber.
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth describes the man Mr. Kerry killed as a
solitary wounded teenager "in a loincloth," who may or may not have been
armed. They say the charge to the beach was planned the night before and,
citing a report from one crew member on a different boat, maintain that the
sailors even schemed about who would win which medals.
The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal.
But Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line for
recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if
there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly
corroborated the accounts.
"Witness reports were reviewed; battle reports were reviewed," Mr. Lonsdale
said at the 1996 news conference, adding, "It was a very complete and
carefully orchestrated procedure." In his statements Mr. Elliott described
the action that day as "intense" and "unusual."
According to a citation for Mr. Kerry's Bronze Star, a group of Swift boats
was leaving the Bay Hap river when several mines detonated, disabling one
boat and knocking a soldier named Jim Rassmann overboard. In a hail of enemy
fire, Mr. Kerry turned the boat around to pull Mr. Rassmann from the water.
Mr. Rassmann, who says he is a Republican, reappeared during the Iowa
caucuses this year to tell his story and support Mr. Kerry, and is widely
credited with helping to revive Mr. Kerry's campaign.
But the group says that there was no enemy fire, and that while Mr. Kerry
did rescue Mr. Rassmann, the action was what anyone would have expected of a
sailor, and hardly heroic. Asked why Mr. Rassmann recalled that he was
dodging enemy bullets, a member of the group, Jack Chenoweth, said, "He's
lying."
"If that's what we have to say," Mr. Chenoweth added, "that's how it was."
Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports, pointing to
the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying they are Mr. Kerry's.
"What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry Thurlow, who said his boat
was 50 to 60 yards from Mr. Kerry's. Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a
Navy official said the initials refer to the person who had received the
report at headquarters, not the author.
A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three bullet
holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports indicate that
one Vietcong was killed in action and five others wounded, reaffirming the
presence of an enemy. Mr. Thurlow said the boat was hit the day before. He
also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out of "Unfit for
Command."
Asked about the award, Mr. Thurlow said that he did not recall what the
citation said but that he believed it had commended him for saving the lives
of sailors on a boat hit by a mine. If it did mention enemy fire, he said,
that was based on Mr. Kerry's false reports. The actual citation, Mr.
Thurlow said, was with an ex-wife with whom he no longer has contact, and he
declined to authorize the Navy to release a copy. But a copy obtained by The
New York Times indicates "enemy small arms," "automatic weapons fire" and
"enemy bullets flying about him." The citation was first reported by The
Washington Post on Thursday.
Standing Their Ground
As serious questions about its claims have arisen, the group has remained
steadfast and adaptable.
This week, as its leaders spoke with reporters, they have focused primarily
on the one allegation in the book that Mr. Kerry's campaign has not been
able to put to rest: that he was not in Cambodia at Christmas in 1968, as he
declared in a statement to the Senate in 1986. Even Mr. Brinkley, who has
emerged as a defender of Mr. Kerry, said in an interview that it was
unlikely that Mr. Kerry's Swift boat ventured into Cambodia at Christmas,
though he said he believed that Mr. Kerry was probably there shortly
afterward.
The group said it would introduce a new advertisement against Mr. Kerry on
Friday. What drives the veterans, they acknowledge, is less what Mr. Kerry
did during his time in Vietnam than what he said after. Their affidavits and
their television commercial focus mostly on those antiwar statements. Most
members of the group object to his using the word "atrocities" to describe
what happened in Vietnam when he returned and became an antiwar activist.
And they are offended, they say, by the gall of his running for president as
a hero of that war.
"I went to university and was called a baby killer and a murderer because of
guys like Kerry and what he was saying," said Van Odell, who appears in the
first advertisement, accusing Mr. Kerry of lying to get his Bronze Star.
"Not once did I participate in the atrocities he said were happening."
As Mr. Lonsdale explained it: "We won the battle. Kerry went home and lost
the war for us.
"He called us rapers and killers and that's not true," he continued. "If he
expects our loyalty, we should expect loyalty from him."
xend
url
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?pagewanted=1&th
.

User: "Bubba Test"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 01:10:05 PM
FGH
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8spVc.7766$3O3.7455@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Bush's attack on Kerry's war service is discredited in this article. It
would be good to remember that similar slander attacks have been made on
other veterans (McCain, Cleland) by Bush in his political career to

minimize

his own shirking of war duty.

Read on...

" But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for

Truth'

prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered

as

proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's
own statements. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat
Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many

cases,

material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy
records and the men's own statements. "

" In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his
commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral
courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the
second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments,

he

called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged
leader in his peer group." "

" "It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he
said. "He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the

scariest

night of my life." "
==========

Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM
RUTENBERG
NY Times August 20, 2004

After weeks of taking fire over veterans' accusations that he had lied

about

his Vietnam service record to win medals and build a political career,
Senator John Kerry shot back yesterday, calling those statements
categorically false and branding the people behind them tools of the Bush
campaign.

His decision to take on the group directly was a measure of how the group
that calls itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has catapulted itself to

the

forefront of the presidential campaign. It has advanced its cause in a

book,

in a television advertisement and on cable news and talk radio shows, all

in

an attempt to discredit Mr. Kerry's war record, a pillar of his campaign.

How the group came into existence is a story of how veterans with
longstanding anger about Mr. Kerry's antiwar statements in the early

1970's

allied themselves with Texas Republicans.

Mr. Kerry called them "a front for the Bush campaign" - a charge the
campaign denied.

A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections
to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President
Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove.

Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing

from

two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime

political

associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr.
Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped
prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice
president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television
commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad
mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr.
Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.

The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the

war

hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that
resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of

Swift

Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many
cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official
Navy records and the men's own statements.

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on

him,

some as recently as last year.

In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized
biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York
Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group,
allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said,
"I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a

good

man."

In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003,

Mr.

Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver
Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."

George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his

home

in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough
re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won
Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event,

Adrian

L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry,
supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young
officers that ran the Swift boats."

"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and
cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest

of

those Swift boat drivers."

Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry

in

1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not
exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and
decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction -

in

the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry

"unsurpassed,"

"beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

The Admiral Calls

It all began last winter, as Mr. Kerry was wrapping up the Democratic
nomination. Mr. Lonsdale received a call at his Massachusetts home from

his

old commander in Vietnam, Mr. Hoffmann, asking if he had seen the new
biography of the man who would be president.

Mr. Hoffmann had commanded the Swift boats during the war from a base in

Cam

Ranh Bay and advocated a search-and-destroy campaign against the

Vietcong -

the kind of tactic Mr. Kerry criticized when he was a spokesman for

Vietnam

Veterans Against the War in 1971. Shortly after leaving the Navy in 1978,

he

was issued a letter of censure for exercising undue influence on cases in
the military justice system.

Both Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Lonsdale had publicly lauded Mr. Kerry in the
past. But the book, Mr. Brinkley's "Tour of Duty," while it burnished Mr.
Kerry's reputation, portrayed the two men as reckless leaders whose

military

approach had led to the deaths of countless sailors and innocent

civilians.

Several Swift boat veterans compared Mr. Hoffmann to the bloodthirsty
colonel in the film "Apocalypse Now" - the one who loves the smell of

Napalm

in the morning.

The two men were determined to set the record, as they saw it, straight.

"It was the admiral who started it and got the rest of us into it," Mr.
Lonsdale said.

Mr. Hoffmann's phone calls led them to Texas and to John E. O'Neill, who

at

one point commanded the same Swift boat in Vietnam, and whose mission
against him dated to 1971, when he had been recruited by the Nixon
administration to debate Mr. Kerry on "The ***** Cavett Show."

Mr. O'Neill, who pressed his charges against Mr. Kerry in numerous
television appearances Thursday, had spent the 33 years since he debated

Mr.

Kerry building a successful law practice in Houston, intermingling with

some

of the state's most powerful Republicans and building an impressive client
list. Among the companies he represented was Falcon Seaboard, the energy
firm founded by the current lieutenant governor of Texas, David Dewhurst,

a

central player in the Texas redistricting plan that has positioned state
Republicans to win more Congressional seats this fall.

Mr. O'Neill said during one of several interviews that he had come to know
two of his biggest donors, Harlan Crow and Bob J. Perry, through longtime
social and business contacts.

Mr. Perry, who has given $200,000 to the group, is the top donor to
Republicans in the state, according to Texans for Public Justice, a
nonpartisan group that tracks political donations. He donated $46,000 to
President Bush's campaigns for governor in 1994 and 1998. In the 2002
election, the group said, he donated nearly $4 million to Texas candidates
and political committees.

Mr. Rove, Mr. Bush's top political aide, recently said through a

spokeswoman

that he and Mr. Perry were longtime friends, though he said they had not
spoken for at least a year. Mr. Rove and Mr. Perry have been associates
since at least 1986, when they both worked on the gubernatorial campaign

of

Bill Clements.

Mr. O'Neill said he had known Mr. Perry for 30 years. "I've represented

many

of his friends,'' Mr. O'Neill said. Mr. Perry did not respond to requests
for comment.

Mr. O'Neill said he had also known Mr. Crow for 30 years, through mutual
friends. Mr. Crow, the seventh-largest donor to Republicans in the state
according to the Texans for Public Justice, has donated nowhere near as

much

money as Mr. Perry to the Swift boat group. His family owns one of the
largest diversified commercial real estate companies in the nation, the
Trammell Crow Company, and has given money to Mr. Bush and his father
throughout their careers. He is listed as a trustee of the George Bush
Presidential Library Foundation.

One of his law partners, Margaret Wilson, became Mr. Bush's general

counsel

when he was governor of Texas and followed him to the White House as

deputy

counsel for the Department of Commerce, according to her biography on the
law firm's Web site.

Another partner, Tex Lezar, ran on the Republican ticket with Mr. Bush in
1994, as lieutenant governor. They were two years apart at Yale, and Mr.
Lezar worked for the attorney general's office in the Reagan

administration.

Mr. Lezar, who died last year, was married to Merrie Spaeth, a powerful
public relations executive who has helped coordinate the efforts of Swift
Boat Veterans for Truth.

In 2000, Ms. Spaeth was spokeswoman for a group that ran $2 million worth

of

ads attacking Senator John McCain's environmental record and lauding Mr.
Bush's in crucial states during their fierce primary battle. The group,
calling itself Republicans for Clean Air, was founded by a prominent Texas
supporter of Mr. Bush, Sam Wyly.

Ms. Spaeth had been a communications official in the Reagan White House,
where the president's aides had enough confidence in her to invite her to
help prepare George Bush for his vice-presidential debate in 1984. She

says

she is also a close friend of Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas, a
client of Mr. Rove's. Ms. Spaeth said in an interview that the one time

she

had ever spoken to Mr. Rove was when Ms. Hutchison was running for the

Texas

treasurer's office in 1990.

When asked if she had ever visited the White House during Mr. Bush's

tenure,

Ms. Spaeth initially said that she had been there only once, in 2002, when
Kenneth Starr gave her a personal tour. But this week Ms. Spaeth
acknowledged that she had spent an hour in the Old Executive Office
Building, part of the White House complex, in the spring of 2003, giving

Mr.

Bush's chief economic adviser, Stephen Friedman, public speaking advice.
Asked if it was possible that she had worked with other administration
officials, Ms. Spaeth said, "The answer is 'no,' unless you refresh my
memory.''

"Is the White House directing this?" Ms. Spaeth said of the organization.
"Absolutely not.''

Another participant is the political advertising agency that made the
group's television commercial: Stevens Reed Curcio & Potholm, based in
Alexandria, Va. The agency worked for Senator McCain in 2000 and for Mr.
Bush's father in 1988, when it created the "tank" advertisement mocking

Mr.

Dukakis. A spokesman for the Swift boat veterans said the organization
decided to hire the agency after a member saw one of its partners speaking
on television.

About 10 veterans met in Ms. Spaeth's office in Dallas in April to share
outrage and plot their campaign against Mr. Kerry, she and others said.

Mr.

Lonsdale, who did not attend, said the meeting had been planned as "an
indoctrination session."

What might have been loose impressions about Mr. Kerry began to harden.

"That was an awakening experience," Ms. Spaeth said. "Not just for me, but
for many of them who had not heard each other's stories."

The group decided to hire a private investigator to investigate Mr.
Brinkley's account of the war - to find "some neutral way of actually
questioning people involved in these incidents,'' Mr. O'Neill said.

But the investigator's questions did not seem neutral to some.

Patrick Runyon, who served on a mission with Mr. Kerry, said he initially
thought the caller was from a pro-Kerry group, and happily gave a

statement

about the night Mr. Kerry won his first Purple Heart. The investigator

said

he would send it to him by e-mail for his signature. Mr. Runyon said the
edited version was stripped of all references to enemy combat, making it
look like just another night in the Mekong Delta.

"It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he

said.

"He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the scariest

night

of my life."

By May, the group had the money that Mr. O'Neill had collected as well as
additional veterans rallied by Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Hoffmann and others. The
expanded group gathered in Washington to record the veterans' stories for

a

television commercial.

Each veteran's statement was written down as an affidavit and sent to him

to

sign and have notarized. But the validity of those affidavits soon came

into

question.

Mr. Elliott, who recommended Mr. Kerry for the Silver Star, had signed one
affidavit saying Mr. Kerry "was not forthright" in the statements that had
led to the award. Two weeks ago, The Boston Globe quoted him as saying

that

he felt he should not have signed the affidavit. He then signed a second
affidavit that reaffirmed his first, which the Swift Boat Veterans gave to
reporters. Mr. Elliott has refused to speak publicly since then.

The Questions

The book outlining the veterans' charges, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat
Veterans Speak Out Against Kerry," has also come under fire. It is

published

by Regnery, a conservative company that has published numerous books
critical of Democrats, and written by Mr. O'Neill and Jerome R. Corsi, who
was identified on the book jacket as a Harvard Ph.D. and the author of

many

books and articles. But Mr. Corsi also acknowledged that he has been a
contributor of anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic comments to a
right-wing Web site. He said he regretted those comments.

The group's arguments have foundered on other contradictions. In the
television commercial, Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and

declares,

"I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated
him for that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of
shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow - but he and others in the group

argue

that it was minor and self-inflicted.

Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for

Mr.

Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury, the form is
signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago. Dr. Letson
said it was common for medics to treat sailors with the kind of injury

that

Mr. Kerry had and to fill out paperwork when doctors did the treatment.

Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated Mr.
Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for it."

The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr., a retired

rear

admiral who says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on

which

Mr. Kerry was injured that night in December 1968. He contends that Mr.
Kerry wounded himself while firing a grenade.

But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr. Kerry,
Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third crew member.
"Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to three," Mr. Runyon
said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he had not recalled Mr.
Schachte until he had a conversation with another veteran earlier this

year

and received a subsequent phone call from Mr. Schachte himself.

Mr. Schachte did not return a telephone call, and a spokesman for the

group

said he would not comment.

The Silver Star was awarded after Mr. Kerry's boat came under heavy fire
from shore during a mission in February 1969. According to Navy records,

he

turned the boat to charge the Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang
from the shore about 10 feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto

the

shore, chased the soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a

B-40

rocket launcher with a round in the chamber.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth describes the man Mr. Kerry killed as a
solitary wounded teenager "in a loincloth," who may or may not have been
armed. They say the charge to the beach was planned the night before and,
citing a report from one crew member on a different boat, maintain that

the

sailors even schemed about who would win which medals.

The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal.
But Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line

for

recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if
there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly
corroborated the accounts.

"Witness reports were reviewed; battle reports were reviewed," Mr.

Lonsdale

said at the 1996 news conference, adding, "It was a very complete and
carefully orchestrated procedure." In his statements Mr. Elliott described
the action that day as "intense" and "unusual."

According to a citation for Mr. Kerry's Bronze Star, a group of Swift

boats

was leaving the Bay Hap river when several mines detonated, disabling one
boat and knocking a soldier named Jim Rassmann overboard. In a hail of

enemy

fire, Mr. Kerry turned the boat around to pull Mr. Rassmann from the

water.


Mr. Rassmann, who says he is a Republican, reappeared during the Iowa
caucuses this year to tell his story and support Mr. Kerry, and is widely
credited with helping to revive Mr. Kerry's campaign.

But the group says that there was no enemy fire, and that while Mr. Kerry
did rescue Mr. Rassmann, the action was what anyone would have expected of

a

sailor, and hardly heroic. Asked why Mr. Rassmann recalled that he was
dodging enemy bullets, a member of the group, Jack Chenoweth, said, "He's
lying."

"If that's what we have to say," Mr. Chenoweth added, "that's how it was."

Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports, pointing to
the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying they are Mr.

Kerry's.

"What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry Thurlow, who said his boat
was 50 to 60 yards from Mr. Kerry's. Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and

a

Navy official said the initials refer to the person who had received the
report at headquarters, not the author.

A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three bullet
holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports indicate that
one Vietcong was killed in action and five others wounded, reaffirming the
presence of an enemy. Mr. Thurlow said the boat was hit the day before. He
also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out of "Unfit for
Command."

Asked about the award, Mr. Thurlow said that he did not recall what the
citation said but that he believed it had commended him for saving the

lives

of sailors on a boat hit by a mine. If it did mention enemy fire, he said,
that was based on Mr. Kerry's false reports. The actual citation, Mr.
Thurlow said, was with an ex-wife with whom he no longer has contact, and

he

declined to authorize the Navy to release a copy. But a copy obtained by

The

New York Times indicates "enemy small arms," "automatic weapons fire" and
"enemy bullets flying about him." The citation was first reported by The
Washington Post on Thursday.

Standing Their Ground

As serious questions about its claims have arisen, the group has remained
steadfast and adaptable.

This week, as its leaders spoke with reporters, they have focused

primarily

on the one allegation in the book that Mr. Kerry's campaign has not been
able to put to rest: that he was not in Cambodia at Christmas in 1968, as

he

declared in a statement to the Senate in 1986. Even Mr. Brinkley, who has
emerged as a defender of Mr. Kerry, said in an interview that it was
unlikely that Mr. Kerry's Swift boat ventured into Cambodia at Christmas,
though he said he believed that Mr. Kerry was probably there shortly
afterward.

The group said it would introduce a new advertisement against Mr. Kerry on
Friday. What drives the veterans, they acknowledge, is less what Mr. Kerry
did during his time in Vietnam than what he said after. Their affidavits

and

their television commercial focus mostly on those antiwar statements. Most
members of the group object to his using the word "atrocities" to describe
what happened in Vietnam when he returned and became an antiwar activist.
And they are offended, they say, by the gall of his running for president

as

a hero of that war.

"I went to university and was called a baby killer and a murderer because

of

guys like Kerry and what he was saying," said Van Odell, who appears in

the

first advertisement, accusing Mr. Kerry of lying to get his Bronze Star.
"Not once did I participate in the atrocities he said were happening."

As Mr. Lonsdale explained it: "We won the battle. Kerry went home and lost
the war for us.

"He called us rapers and killers and that's not true," he continued. "If

he

expects our loyalty, we should expect loyalty from him."

xend
url

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?pagewanted=1&th




.

User: "Osprey"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 11:20:21 AM
Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one question for a lot
of the liberals.
Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?
In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or liberal, their
disservice, lack of, running away from military service was never an issue
with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service seems to be so
important. Why now?
Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military service, or
lack of?
.
User: "Bill Case"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 11:25:28 AM
"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one question for a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or liberal, their
disservice, lack of, running away from military service was never an issue
with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service seems to be so
important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military service, or
lack of?

I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking veterans to make his own
war shirking look ok.
You'll notice this article refutes a campaign against Kerry's war record,
it's not attacking Bush's war record. This swift boat thing isn't something
Kerry created.
.
User: "Osprey"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 01:14:22 PM
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one question for a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or liberal, their
disservice, lack of, running away from military service was never an

issue

with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service seems to be

so

important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military service, or
lack of?


I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking veterans to make his

own

war shirking look ok.

I don't care if you are a liberal or not.
If you were not willing to look at your own party and their lack of service,
running, and so forth,
don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's service.
.
User: "Bill Case"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 01:37:55 PM
"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:tOydnRBjeqjYorvcRVn-sg@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one question for

a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or liberal, their
disservice, lack of, running away from military service was never an

issue

with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service seems to

be

so

important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military service,

or

lack of?


I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking veterans to make his

own

war shirking look ok.


I don't care if you are a liberal or not.

Then why did address "liberals" in your post?

If you were not willing to look at your own party and their lack of

service,

running, and so forth,
don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's service.

Dumass, the whole article is about looking at Kerry's service. The Demos.
have a lot of people with miltary service, it's the Repubs. who have a crew
of war dodgers.
I couldn't care less if you take it seriously - it's reasonable people that
are important.
.
User: "Osprey"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 02:34:50 PM
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7yrVc.7874$3O3.251@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:tOydnRBjeqjYorvcRVn-sg@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one question

for

a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or liberal,

their

disservice, lack of, running away from military service was never an

issue

with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service seems to

be

so

important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military

service,

or

lack of?


I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking veterans to make

his

own

war shirking look ok.


I don't care if you are a liberal or not.


Then why did address "liberals" in your post?

Because in most cases it is the liberals who are praising Kerry on his
military service and making it an issue.


If you were not willing to look at your own party and their lack of

service,

running, and so forth,
don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's service.


Dumass, the whole article is about looking at Kerry's service. The Demos.
have a lot of people with miltary service, it's the Repubs. who have a

crew

of war dodgers.

I am a "repub" and I was in a war and served, as many others I know who are
also repubs.
So you can take your silly assertion and shove it up your rhetorical *****.


I couldn't care less if you take it seriously - it's reasonable people

that

are important.

Well, when you become reasonable, let me know. I have yet to see where you
are a reasonable person at all.



.
User: "Bill Case"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 02:40:15 PM
"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3d2dnfcJT__Uz7vcRVn-uw@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7yrVc.7874$3O3.251@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:tOydnRBjeqjYorvcRVn-sg@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one question

for

a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or liberal,

their

disservice, lack of, running away from military service was never

an

issue

with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service seems

to

be

so

important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military

service,

or

lack of?


I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking veterans to make

his

own

war shirking look ok.


I don't care if you are a liberal or not.


Then why did address "liberals" in your post?


Because in most cases it is the liberals who are praising Kerry on his
military service and making it an issue.



If you were not willing to look at your own party and their lack of

service,

running, and so forth,
don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's service.


Dumass, the whole article is about looking at Kerry's service. The

Demos.

have a lot of people with miltary service, it's the Repubs. who have a

crew

of war dodgers.


I am a "repub" and I was in a war and served, as many others I know who

are

also repubs.
So you can take your silly assertion and shove it up your rhetorical *****.



I couldn't care less if you take it seriously - it's reasonable people

that

are important.


Well, when you become reasonable, let me know. I have yet to see where you
are a reasonable person at all.






.

User: "Bill Case"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 02:43:47 PM
"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3d2dnfcJT__Uz7vcRVn-uw@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7yrVc.7874$3O3.251@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:tOydnRBjeqjYorvcRVn-sg@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one question

for

a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or liberal,

their

disservice, lack of, running away from military service was never

an

issue

with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service seems

to

be

so

important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military

service,

or

lack of?


I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking veterans to make

his

own

war shirking look ok.


I don't care if you are a liberal or not.


Then why did address "liberals" in your post?


Because in most cases it is the liberals who are praising Kerry on his
military service and making it an issue.

*****. He's being attacked just like McCain and Cleland before him, with
lies.


If you were not willing to look at your own party and their lack of

service,

running, and so forth,
don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's service.


Dumass, the whole article is about looking at Kerry's service. The

Demos.

have a lot of people with miltary service, it's the Repubs. who have a

crew

of war dodgers.


I am a "repub" and I was in a war and served, as many others I know who

are

also repubs.
So you can take your silly assertion and shove it up your rhetorical *****.

Then why would you support chickhawks like Cheney and Bush?
And you're the one who started this exchange in response to a well
researched article dealing with an important matter,
so you take your complaints and shove them up YOUR *****.




I couldn't care less if you take it seriously - it's reasonable people

that

are important.


Well, when you become reasonable, let me know. I have yet to see where you
are a reasonable person at all.






.
User: "Osprey"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 02:53:35 PM
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TvsVc.7985$3O3.1636@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3d2dnfcJT__Uz7vcRVn-uw@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7yrVc.7874$3O3.251@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:tOydnRBjeqjYorvcRVn-sg@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one

question

for

a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or liberal,

their

disservice, lack of, running away from military service was

never

an

issue

with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service

seems

to

be

so

important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military

service,

or

lack of?


I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking veterans to

make

his

own

war shirking look ok.


I don't care if you are a liberal or not.


Then why did address "liberals" in your post?


Because in most cases it is the liberals who are praising Kerry on his
military service and making it an issue.


*****. He's being attacked just like McCain and Cleland before him,

with

lies.

Did you attack Democrats who ran from service?



If you were not willing to look at your own party and their lack of

service,

running, and so forth,
don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's

service.


Dumass, the whole article is about looking at Kerry's service. The

Demos.

have a lot of people with miltary service, it's the Repubs. who have a

crew

of war dodgers.


I am a "repub" and I was in a war and served, as many others I know who

are

also repubs.
So you can take your silly assertion and shove it up your rhetorical

*****.


Then why would you support chickhawks like Cheney and Bush?

First off, you don't know who I support or what I support so before you go
jumping and assuming, you might want to back up and start over again.
Personally I don't like any of the candidates.
As for your comments about "repubs", you are dead wrong.
Both parties have a crew of war dodgers.
Problem is, people like you look the other way when it is people with in
your own party who dodged the war.
.
User: "Bill Case"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 03:15:36 PM
"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:EIqdnfRyYN83y7vcRVn-jQ@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TvsVc.7985$3O3.1636@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3d2dnfcJT__Uz7vcRVn-uw@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7yrVc.7874$3O3.251@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:tOydnRBjeqjYorvcRVn-sg@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one

question

for

a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or

liberal,

their

disservice, lack of, running away from military service was

never

an

issue

with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service

seems

to

be

so

important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military

service,

or

lack of?


I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking veterans to

make

his

own

war shirking look ok.


I don't care if you are a liberal or not.


Then why did address "liberals" in your post?


Because in most cases it is the liberals who are praising Kerry on his
military service and making it an issue.


*****. He's being attacked just like McCain and Cleland before him,

with

lies.


Did you attack Democrats who ran from service?



If you were not willing to look at your own party and their lack

of

service,

running, and so forth,
don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's

service.


Dumass, the whole article is about looking at Kerry's service. The

Demos.

have a lot of people with miltary service, it's the Repubs. who have

a

crew

of war dodgers.


I am a "repub" and I was in a war and served, as many others I know

who

are

also repubs.
So you can take your silly assertion and shove it up your rhetorical

*****.


Then why would you support chickhawks like Cheney and Bush?


First off, you don't know who I support or what I support so before you go
jumping and assuming, you might want to back up and start over again.
Personally I don't like any of the candidates.
As for your comments about "repubs", you are dead wrong.
Both parties have a crew of war dodgers.
Problem is, people like you look the other way when it is people with in
your own party who dodged the war.

I was a Republican up to few years ago. You started your post off with
something about "liberals", that's a hint on how you feel.
Whatever somebody's politcial leanings are, why object to an article by
journalists investigating a slander campaign? If lies were being told about
Bush, I would want them exposed too.
.
User: "Osprey"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 03:22:07 PM
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IZsVc.8010$3O3.6038@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:EIqdnfRyYN83y7vcRVn-jQ@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TvsVc.7985$3O3.1636@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3d2dnfcJT__Uz7vcRVn-uw@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7yrVc.7874$3O3.251@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:tOydnRBjeqjYorvcRVn-sg@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one

question

for

a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or

liberal,

their

disservice, lack of, running away from military service was

never

an

issue

with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service

seems

to

be

so

important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military

service,

or

lack of?


I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking veterans

to

make

his

own

war shirking look ok.


I don't care if you are a liberal or not.


Then why did address "liberals" in your post?


Because in most cases it is the liberals who are praising Kerry on

his

military service and making it an issue.


*****. He's being attacked just like McCain and Cleland before him,

with

lies.


Did you attack Democrats who ran from service?

Note again: Your evasive behavior. You love asking other people questions,
but when you are asked questions you run.




If you were not willing to look at your own party and their lack

of

service,

running, and so forth,
don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's

service.


Dumass, the whole article is about looking at Kerry's service. The

Demos.

have a lot of people with miltary service, it's the Repubs. who

have

a

crew

of war dodgers.


I am a "repub" and I was in a war and served, as many others I know

who

are

also repubs.
So you can take your silly assertion and shove it up your rhetorical

*****.


Then why would you support chickhawks like Cheney and Bush?


First off, you don't know who I support or what I support so before you

go

jumping and assuming, you might want to back up and start over again.
Personally I don't like any of the candidates.
As for your comments about "repubs", you are dead wrong.
Both parties have a crew of war dodgers.
Problem is, people like you look the other way when it is people with in
your own party who dodged the war.


I was a Republican up to few years ago.

So?
You started your post off with

something about "liberals", that's a hint on how you feel.

I started off with a post asking why liberals didn't care about a
politicians military service prior to Kerry


Whatever somebody's politcial leanings are, why object to an article by
journalists investigating a slander campaign? If lies were being told

about

Bush, I would want them exposed too.

.
User: "Bill Case"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 03:57:15 PM
"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:j4adnakZntjIwLvcRVn-uA@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IZsVc.8010$3O3.6038@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:EIqdnfRyYN83y7vcRVn-jQ@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TvsVc.7985$3O3.1636@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3d2dnfcJT__Uz7vcRVn-uw@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7yrVc.7874$3O3.251@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:tOydnRBjeqjYorvcRVn-sg@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one

question

for

a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or

liberal,

their

disservice, lack of, running away from military service

was

never

an

issue

with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military

service

seems

to

be

so

important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the

military

service,

or

lack of?


I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking veterans

to

make

his

own

war shirking look ok.


I don't care if you are a liberal or not.


Then why did address "liberals" in your post?


Because in most cases it is the liberals who are praising Kerry on

his

military service and making it an issue.


*****. He's being attacked just like McCain and Cleland before

him,

with

lies.


Did you attack Democrats who ran from service?


Note again: Your evasive behavior. You love asking other people

questions,

but when you are asked questions you run.




If you were not willing to look at your own party and their

lack

of

service,

running, and so forth,
don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's

service.


Dumass, the whole article is about looking at Kerry's service.

The

Demos.

have a lot of people with miltary service, it's the Repubs. who

have

a

crew

of war dodgers.


I am a "repub" and I was in a war and served, as many others I

know

who

are

also repubs.
So you can take your silly assertion and shove it up your

rhetorical

*****.


Then why would you support chickhawks like Cheney and Bush?


First off, you don't know who I support or what I support so before

you

go

jumping and assuming, you might want to back up and start over again.
Personally I don't like any of the candidates.
As for your comments about "repubs", you are dead wrong.
Both parties have a crew of war dodgers.
Problem is, people like you look the other way when it is people with

in

your own party who dodged the war.


I was a Republican up to few years ago.


So?

You started your post off with

something about "liberals", that's a hint on how you feel.


I started off with a post asking why liberals didn't care about a
politicians military service prior to Kerry

How do you know they don't?
And aside from liberals, a lot of Demos didn't like Clinton at all.
.
User: "Osprey"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 04:10:59 PM
"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LAtVc.8054$3O3.853@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:j4adnakZntjIwLvcRVn-uA@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IZsVc.8010$3O3.6038@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:EIqdnfRyYN83y7vcRVn-jQ@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TvsVc.7985$3O3.1636@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3d2dnfcJT__Uz7vcRVn-uw@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7yrVc.7874$3O3.251@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:tOydnRBjeqjYorvcRVn-sg@comcast.com...


"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...


"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
news:UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one

question

for

a

lot

of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or

liberal,

their

disservice, lack of, running away from military service

was

never

an

issue

with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military

service

seems

to

be

so

important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the

military

service,

or

lack of?


I'm not a liberal, but Bush has record of attacking

veterans

to

make

his

own

war shirking look ok.


I don't care if you are a liberal or not.


Then why did address "liberals" in your post?


Because in most cases it is the liberals who are praising Kerry

on

his

military service and making it an issue.


*****. He's being attacked just like McCain and Cleland before

him,

with

lies.


Did you attack Democrats who ran from service?


Note again: Your evasive behavior. You love asking other people

questions,

but when you are asked questions you run.




If you were not willing to look at your own party and their

lack

of

service,

running, and so forth,
don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider

Kerry's

service.


Dumass, the whole article is about looking at Kerry's service.

The

Demos.

have a lot of people with miltary service, it's the Repubs.

who

have

a

crew

of war dodgers.


I am a "repub" and I was in a war and served, as many others I

know

who

are

also repubs.
So you can take your silly assertion and shove it up your

rhetorical

*****.


Then why would you support chickhawks like Cheney and Bush?


First off, you don't know who I support or what I support so before

you

go

jumping and assuming, you might want to back up and start over

again.

Personally I don't like any of the candidates.
As for your comments about "repubs", you are dead wrong.
Both parties have a crew of war dodgers.
Problem is, people like you look the other way when it is people

with

in

your own party who dodged the war.


I was a Republican up to few years ago.


So?

You started your post off with

something about "liberals", that's a hint on how you feel.


I started off with a post asking why liberals didn't care about a
politicians military service prior to Kerry


How do you know they don't?

I have not seen any, so until I see some that do..you know the rest.

And aside from liberals, a lot of Demos didn't like Clinton at all.



.








User: "Fred J. McCall"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 03:28:30 PM
"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
:"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
:news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
:>
:> I'm not a liberal,
No, you're just a loon.
:> but Bush has record of attacking veterans to make his own
:> war shirking look ok.
Evidence? *ANY* instance of this happening?
:I don't care if you are a liberal or not.
:If you were not willing to look at your own party and their lack of service,
:running, and so forth,
:don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's service.
Gods, there still someone out there considering taking Head Case
seriously? Most folks killfiled him a LONG time ago.
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
.
User: "Bill Case"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 04:07:01 PM
"Fred J. McCall" <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:hjnci09ev92lb91gl8p637sa3q6mbmgfn9@4ax.com...

"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

:"Bill Case" <Billd548@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
:news:YBpVc.7769$3O3.2737@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
:>
:> I'm not a liberal,

No, you're just a loon.

What an ***** you are.

:> but Bush has record of attacking veterans to make his own
:> war shirking look ok.

Evidence? *ANY* instance of this happening?

What a stupid reply.
People who are interested in this subject: http://www.google.com/
enter: bush rove mccain slander


:I don't care if you are a liberal or not.
:If you were not willing to look at your own party and their lack of

service,

:running, and so forth,
:don't expect me to take you seriously if you consider Kerry's service.

Gods, there still someone out there considering taking Head Case
seriously? Most folks killfiled him a LONG time ago.

Buffy boy McCall apparently killfiled me, but still replies to my postings,
hahaha
Probably because this NY Times article frightens him badly.
.




User: "Shawn Hearn"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 10:33:35 PM
In article <UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com>,
"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

Not really interested in the rhetoric, but I do have one question for a lot
of the liberals.

Why does military service all of the sudden matter now?

In the past, with other candidates who were democrat or liberal, their
disservice, lack of, running away from military service was never an issue
with the liberals. All of the sudden now, military service seems to be so
important. Why now?

Why can't liberals remain consistent and ignore the military service, or
lack of?

The same question could be applied to Republicans who did nothing but
harp about Clinton's lack of military service. Why does military
service matter to either party? Bush keeps touting his prowess at
being commander in chief, so perhaps that's what is driving this issue.
.
User: "Osprey"

Title: Re: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies GOOD ARTICLE 20 Aug 2004 10:39:38 PM
"Shawn Hearn" <srhi@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:srhi-61D954.23333520082004@news-40.giganews.com...

In article <UL2dnU-iyP4zubvcRVn-vg@comcast.com>,
"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote