On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:01:36 -0400,
Robert Heishman ("Osprey") wrote:

Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> ("GOOD RIDDANCE on
Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!") wrote:

Robert heishman ("Osprey") wrote:

Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> wrote:

[ ... ]

REMINDER, Robert: All organic material is either alive or
it is dead. Gametes (sperm and ova) are Stage One of the repro-
ductive process, and they are organic. Zygotes (stage 2) are
formed at fertilization, and are alive.

But still though it is the beginning of life.

Really? Then what part of what I said below -- "One cannot get
a LIVE zygote by combining gametes that are DEAD"

We are not talking about "dead" sperm or eggs.

You're right! We're talking about LIVE gametes. From which
one gets LIVE zygotes. But since zygotes are Stage 2 entities of
the reproductive process, and gametes (sperm & ova) are Stage 1
entities of that process, and since ALL of those are ALIVE... life
does NOT begin at fertiliztion... and the ACTUAL "conception"
(i.e., beginning) of any particular person can accurately be
pinpointed as the moments when *each* of his/her Stage 1 entit-
ies (gametes) are first fully FORMED in the reproductive orgams
of his/her parents-to-be.

And THAT makes gametes the EQUALS in value to the Stage
2, 3, and 4 entities, since ALL FOUR stages' entities are human,
unique, and LIVING **potential** people.

Thus, very **FORTUNATELY** for the BILLION women, world-
wide, who access the remedy of abortion over any given 18-year-long
period, not even the Bible ever defends reproductive-process entities
as people. The ONLY time it specifies any sort of defense, it regards
a fetus as PROPERTY, and discusses the loss from THAT standpoint,
for a woman who has been maliciously and purposely assaulted.

We are talking about the only possible way for life to begin.

Actually, we're NOT. Not even remotely. Human life BEGAN
upwards of 7 million years ago -- and has been a ***self-sustaining
CONTINUUM*** ever since. Every entity within it, from cells on up,
is/has been alive.

That is for a sperm and egg to connect, exchange DNA, and
start the process of mitosis.

That's just a specific PROCESS **within** the overall
reproductive process for any given person-to-be. The FIRST part
of that process, for that person, was the formation of the gametes...
WITHOUT which the stage you just described could not occur.

-- was so hard for you to understand? Since gametes ARE alive,
then zygotes obviously CANNOT possibly be the *beginning* of life.

Without the simple process (actually it isn't that simple), of the
sperm and egg combining their 23 chromosomes you can NOT have
a new human being in development.

And without the prior PRESENCE of the gametes, Stage 2 would
never occur. The entity of each stage has its own ROLE. The **role**
of the gametes is to furnish the DNA, be peresent, and in the case of
sperm, be adept at swimming. Without Stage 1, there would be NO
Stage 2.

Here's an analogy that PROVES that either of the gametes that
starts the reproductive process for any person is EQUALLY valuable
when compared to the entities of the other three stages.

In this hypothetical, it's the year 3004, and technology has
advance to the point where it it possible BOTH to travel back and
forth through time, AND to locate and target a **specific** gamete
withi a person's reproductive organs. A man decides that it would be
dandy if a business rival of his were to be out of the picture, but
he's not about to risk the penalty that murdering him could bring.

So he hops into a time mechine, carrying along a specific tool,
and goes back to a time shortly before his rival's parents met, and
seeks out the woman who was to be his mother. Once he finds her,
he surrepticiously aims the device he carried along, at her. The
futuristic device locates the specific egg that would have led to his
rival, and then painlessly vaporizes it. Then the man returns to his
own time, and finds that, indeed, his rival had never been born.

SUPPOSE that such technology WERE to someday become
possible. The time traveller *would* then have successfully
ABORTED his rival at Stage ONE of the reproductive process.
(Now -- OVERLOOK the fact that the woman unfairly was given no
choice with regard to the abortion, and consider ONLY the abortion,
itself.) **IF** this technology EXISTED... would abortion of a Stage
2, 3, or 4 entity (zygote, embryo, or fetus) ethically be ANY
different from the abortion of a Stage 1 entity? In ALL FOUR
instances, the abortion would terminate a **potential** person.

Thus, SINCE gametes are EVERY BIT as necessary and
"valuable" as are z/e/fs, any person who would try to "defend"
z/e/fs, while IGNORING the quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000,000)
potential people that are being electively aborted DAILY, world-
wide -- would be a total hypocrite.

And, for that matter, even though I showed how the beginning point
of every given PERSON can be determined -- "the *beginning* of any
person-to-be is traceable precisely to the moment at which each of his
gametes first were formed in the reproductive organs of his parents.
(At that point, ALL of his DNA, when summed, is present.)" -- even
THAT is not the beginning of **life**. Since life is a CONTINUUM, and
in the case of the human life continuum (or any other given contiuum),

the actual begiining time for the species, AS a species, was a LONG
time ago. Scientists now believe that life evolved to the point where
homo sapiens first existed as we know it today, around 7 million years
ago.

Meiosis is the creating...

...not "creating" so much as "building" via an already-
evolved physical process, within the reproductive organs,
from already-existing organic materials...

...of our reproduction cells (sperm, or ova). The sperm (haploid)
and the ova (haploid) each have half the chromosomes from the
mother and the father. The very moment that they combine, you
have (hopefully) the complete set necessary for a complete human
being (46 chromosomes)

Every one of the 4 stages of the reproductive process has its own
role. You just described much of the role of Stage 1. Yet, stage 1
is JUST as important (and thus would be just as defensible, if ANY
stage were defensible) as any of the other 3 stages.

One cannot get a LIVE zygote by combining gametes that
are DEAD. Life does NOT begin at fertilization (often mis-called,
"conception," since gametes are ALIVE. And ACTUAL concep-
tion (i.e., the *beginning* of any person-to-be) is traceable precisely
to the moment at which each of his gametes first were formed in
the reproductive organs of his parents. (At that point, ALL of his
DNA, when summed, is present.) Had either of those reproduc-
tive entities died at THAT stage, that unique person never would
have been born.

ALL FOUR stages of the reproductive process are alive, human,
unique, and potential people, and thus EITHER are all **equally**
defensible... or **equally** worthless, when unwanted.

Thus, those who attempt to defend Stages 2, 3, and 4, while
***looking the other way*** with respect to Stage 1, are hypo-
crites.

The Bible NEVER defends ANY reproductive-process entities
as people. But it DOES tell us to show love and compassion to
our neighbors. Showing complete disregard for that, people who
are Anti-Choice seek to impose IMMENSE hardship upon no
fewer than tens of MILLIONS of women by FORCING childbirth
upon them. AGAINST their will. Resulting in the DENIAL of their
rights... their RELEGATION to second-class-citizen status... their
INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE to mere, NON-sentient reproductive-
process entities which are, in all important ways, equivalent to
gametes (which comprise Stage 1 of that process) -- (human,
unique, NON-sentient, a stage of development without which NO
births would occur -- and alive); entities which the WOMEN would
very properly, under the circumstances, regard to be parasitic.
Further manifestations of that hardship would be the DISRUPTION
of their well-being, both short-term and long-term (as in, for decades
or a lifetime)... and the DESTRUCTION of countless of their
opportunities.

There is NO valid reason to oppose the hugely-beneficial
remedy of abortion, and NO facts even exist that support the
denial of that option to any woman who chooses to access it.

You know we are going to disagree with that...:o)

Of course. We always have. But NO person (not just you) has
EVER yet been able to produce so much as even ONE such fact.

(And that should give you some food for thought.)

-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com>

(REAL name and e-mail address, lest any bigot wrongly
think I'm hiding behind an a alias. The "alias," above,
is designed to be a visible MESSAGE, each time I post.)

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

INSIGHT on our Warmonger-in-Thief ---

http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html

AND...

http://www.blackboxvoting.com/

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

ALSO worth a look:

http://anon.newmediamill.speedera.net/anon.newmediamill/pledge_acc/index.html

And... here's what happens to people like you & me:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/21/antiwar.soldier.ap/index.html

However, the same rules don't apply to the "Elite:"

www.awolbush.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:01:36 -0400, "Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:

"GOOD RIDDANCE on Nov. 2nd to Dishonest Warmonger-in-Thief G.W. Bush!"
<xanadu222@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:40c83d25.28688668@netnews.mchsi.com...

On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:40:17 -0400,
Robert heishman ("Osprey") wrote:

Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com> wrote:

Robert heishman ("Osprey") wrote:

Ray Fischer <rfischer@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:

Shawn Hearn <srhi@comcast.net> wrote:

"Poemosophi" <http://Poemosophi.com/> wrote:

I read your web site. Life may begin at conception from
a biological point of view, but rights do not.

Not even from a biological point of view.

Right!! See below.

Actually yes it begins at a biological point of view.

Do you know the difference between Meiosis and Mytosis?

Hint: Mytosis begins and continues until we die

REMINDER, Robert: All organic material is either alive or
it is dead. Gametes (sperm and ova) are Stage One of the repro-
ductive process, and they are organic. Zygotes (stage 2) are
formed at fertilization, and are alive.

But still though it is the beginning of life.

Really? Then what part of what I said below -- "One cannot get
a LIVE zygote by combining gametes that are DEAD"

We are not talking about "dead" sperm or eggs. We are talking about the
only possible
way for life to begin.

They have to be alive upon mergence, you idiot -- there's isn;t
another way around it. Why don't you admit that you're mixing your
theocratic nonsense with scientific fact, and passing your end result
***** as fact, you dishonest little creep?