| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"james g. keegan jr." |
| Date: |
04 Dec 2004 08:26:06 PM |
| Object: |
US on Trial in Germany |
Published on Friday, December 3, 2004 by the Denver Post
US on Trial in Germany
by Reggie Rivers
When I saw the Los Angeles Times story about an American civil rights
group going to Germany to file a criminal complaint against the Bush
administration, I couldn't believe it.
The complaint, filed by the New York-based Center for Constitutional
Rights, alleges that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other U.S.
officials condoned torture at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. The
organization said it had to file charges in Germany, which is allowed to
hear cases involving human-rights abuses anywhere on the globe, because
U.S. investigations had failed to probe the issue deeply enough.
It may seem strange to us that our leaders can be prosecuted in foreign
courts, but the idea isn't novel. Our government went to Panama to
arrest Manuel Noriega and bring him back to the United States for trial
under U.S. law. We've picked up hundreds of so-called "enemy
combatants" in Afghanistan and elsewhere, flown them to Guantanamo Bay
and now we plan to try them under U.S. military law.
We're holding Saddam Hussein in custody. He likely will be tried by the
new Iraqi government, but most Americans probably wouldn't think it odd
if he were tried by a U.S. military tribunal.
In this case, most Americans will object to a German court investigating
the Bush administration, but I believe it's an important effort. An
outside court might be our only hope of getting the type of adversarial
investigation that our system normally delivers. Unfortunately, when it
comes to questions about systemic causes for prison abuse, our
government simply isn't willing to examine itself.
So far, the U.S. approach has been to prosecute the individual soldiers
involved without looking too far up the chain of command to hold
decisionmakers responsible. The position of the government, and
apparently the view of the general public, has been that the problem is
limited to a small group of rogue soldiers.
But given the range of abuses committed, the volume of allegations still
being investigated, the similarity of the allegations from different
parts of the battlefield and different holding facilities, is it
unreasonable to suspect that the Bush administration's refusal to apply
the Geneva Convention, among other policy decisions, might be creating
this culture of abuse?
This question is especially relevant when we consider the people who are
committing these acts. As a group, soldiers are not improvisers. From
the day they join the military, soldiers are told they must obey the
chain of command. Every soldier must develop the ability to follow
orders immediately and without question.
This week, the Pentagon announced it is increasing troop strength in
Iraq to 150,000, mostly by extending the deployments of soldiers who are
already there. We're not going to hear complaints from soldiers, mostly
because they're trained to follow orders.
In this culture, where obedience is paramount, where disobedience can
lead to death, where insubordination is met with fines, incarceration or
dishonorable discharge, we're expected to believe that somehow soldiers
are acting on their own.
These aren't isolated I-got-drunk-and-did- something-stupid-type
incidents.
We're talking about pockets of soldiers, in different places, with no
previous experience at torture, devising remarkably similar techniques
for abusing prisoners over periods of weeks or months. And they're all
doing it on their own initiative with no systemic guidance.
That just doesn't seem likely. Thankfully, there's a German court
willing to do what the American system will not: investigate Bush
administration officials to determine whether they've caused or condoned
these problems.
Former Denver Bronco Reggie Rivers is the host of "Drawing the Line"
Wednesdays at 8 p.m. on KBDI Channel 12 and "Common Good" on Comcast
Channel 5 weekdays at 7:30 a.m. and 5:30 p.m. His column appears every
Friday.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1203-05.htm
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| User: "Fat Burns" |
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| Title: Re: US on Trial in Germany |
04 Dec 2004 09:16:39 PM |
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"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote :
Published on Friday, December 3, 2004 by the Denver Post
US on Trial in Germany
by Reggie Rivers
When I saw the Los Angeles Times story about an American civil rights
group going to Germany to file a criminal complaint against the Bush
administration, I couldn't believe it.
I can't either. They shoulda gone to Cuba.
--
Fat Burns
( "Did you know Fat Burns? It does!" )
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| User: "james g. keegan jr." |
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| Title: Re: US on Trial in Germany |
04 Dec 2004 11:02:46 PM |
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Fat Burns <Fat-Burns@overcooked.com> wrote in
news:Xns95B5CE68AD412FatBurnsovercookedco@206.124.0.13:
"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote :
Published on Friday, December 3, 2004 by the Denver Post
US on Trial in Germany
by Reggie Rivers
When I saw the Los Angeles Times story about an American civil rights
group going to Germany to file a criminal complaint against the Bush
administration, I couldn't believe it.
I can't either. They shoulda gone to Cuba.
typical anti-american neocon
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| User: "Barney" |
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| Title: Re: US on Trial in Germany |
05 Dec 2004 09:15:20 AM |
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"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> had
writtennews:Xns95B5DA097DD8Ekeegannycaprrcom@130.133.1.4:
In this case, most Americans will object to a German court
investigating the Bush administration, but I believe it's an
important effort. An outside court might be our only hope of
getting the type of adversarial investigation that our system
normally delivers. Unfortunately, when it comes to questions about
systemic causes for prison abuse, our government simply isn't
willing to examine itself.
What is good for the goose etc. The Americans would never concede to
any court that accuses them of wrong doing. To them it's a
privaledge only they have.
--
Barney __________________________
"Name calling is best left to those
who have nothing to say"
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| User: "james g. keegan jr." |
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| Title: Re: US on Trial in Germany |
05 Dec 2004 09:32:16 AM |
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Barney <shanty@despammed.com> wrote in
news:Xns95B649D3D31C6shantydespammedcom@individual.net:
"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> had
writtennews:Xns95B5DA097DD8Ekeegannycaprrcom@130.133.1.4:
In this case, most Americans will object to a German court
investigating the Bush administration, but I believe it's an
important effort. An outside court might be our only hope of
getting the type of adversarial investigation that our system
normally delivers. Unfortunately, when it comes to questions about
systemic causes for prison abuse, our government simply isn't
willing to examine itself.
What is good for the goose etc. The Americans would never concede to
any court that accuses them of wrong doing. To them it's a
privaledge only they have.
yes. the usa has a history of bringing war criminals to trial in germany
and elsewhere, when those criminals hold other than usa passports.
that might make some folks think of hypocrisy.
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| User: "Barney" |
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| Title: Re: US on Trial in Germany |
05 Dec 2004 10:33:10 AM |
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"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> had
writtennews:Xns95B66B30B637Bkeegannycaprrcom@130.133.1.4:
yes. the usa has a history of bringing war criminals to trial in
germany and elsewhere, when those criminals hold other than usa
passports.
that might make some folks think of hypocrisy.
When you consider they commit crimes as well and continue to do so
in Iraq and their holding cells in Cuba. Hypocrisy is thought of.
Considering the Nuremburg Trials were held in Germany and more then
the US participated, it is amusing the Americans take all the
credit. Not unsual but amusing. Close to 60 years and trying to use
that as an example of their cooperation is hypocritical.
--
Barney __________________________
"Name calling is best left to those
who have nothing to say"
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| User: "Shel Scott WellDone" |
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| Title: The hard left are so fearful of Islamists that they refuse to say word one about them. |
05 Dec 2004 04:23:50 PM |
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And just how the heck do you navel-gazing nitwits expect to "prove"
that any higher -ups ordered this "torture"(tee hee)?
Note that many countries actually DO _TORTURE_ PEOPLE.
Countries like Syria, North Korea, in fact many of the countries that
regularly vote aginst Israel at the U. N., use torture.
We see no action against them, because it's the hard left taking the
action. The hard left are so fearful of Islamists that they refuse to
say word one about them.
"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
That just doesn't seem likely. Thankfully, there's a German court
willing to do what the American system will not: investigate Bush
administration officials to determine whether they've caused or condoned
these problems.
--
): "I may make you feel, but I can't make you think" :(
(: Off the monitor, through the modem, nothing but net :)
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| User: "Robert Sveinson" |
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| Title: Re: The hard left are so fearful of Islamists that they refuse to say word one about them. |
05 Dec 2004 04:44:17 PM |
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"Shel Scott" <WellDone> wrote in message
news:c527r0h9ermcgpqar0shu5qnnel8lik435@4ax.com...
And just how the heck do you navel-gazing nitwits expect to "prove"
that any higher -ups ordered this "torture"(tee hee)?
Note that many countries actually DO _TORTURE_ PEOPLE.
Countries like Syria, North Korea,
I guess you could add Cuba and Iraq!!
After all that is where Guantanamo, and Abhu Graib are located!!
Guess why ameriKKKans send people to Syria by way of Jordan!!
Because the Syrians will torture anyone the ameriKKKans want tortured!!
Remember Maher Arar?
One year of torture because of the "noble Fourth Reich"
in fact many of the countries that
regularly vote aginst Israel at the U. N., use torture.
The puppet i$$realis don't torture!!
They just empty their U$$A lend lease weapons into
UNARMED Palestinian children!!
Well that is after all the ameriKKKan way!!!
We see no action against them, because it's the hard left taking the
action. The hard left are so fearful of Islamists that they refuse to
say word one about them.
And why no action against I$$REAL??
Beause they can do no wrong!
Just like the FOURTH REICH!!!
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| User: "John Savard" |
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| Title: Re: The hard left are so fearful of Islamists that they refuse to say word one about them. |
05 Dec 2004 08:37:55 PM |
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On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 14:23:50 -0800, Shel Scott <WellDone> wrote, in
part:
The hard left are so fearful of Islamists that they refuse to
say word one about them.
It is not true that the left is afraid of Islamists.
They're afraid the rest of the world might get racist or illiberal
against innocent Muslims and/or Arabs. That is what has them terrified.
So, naturally, they're against things such as 'racial profiling', which
might help some more to prevent an even bigger terrorist attack.
After which, all the things the left fears just might happen.
The lesson we can learn from this is that fear leads to irrational
behavior.
John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: The hard left are so fearful of Islamists that they refuse to say word one about them. |
05 Dec 2004 11:10:07 PM |
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John Savard <jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid> wrote:
Shel Scott <WellDone> wrote, in
The hard left are so fearful of Islamists that they refuse to
say word one about them.
It is not true that the left is afraid of Islamists.
They're afraid the rest of the world might get racist or illiberal
against innocent Muslims and/or Arabs. That is what has them terrified.
Whereas you neocons don't really care about killing millions of
Muslims, Arabs, or Jews so long as you get to feel righteous in
your hate.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "james g. keegan jr." |
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| Title: Re: The hard left are so fearful of Islamists that they refuse to say word one about them. |
05 Dec 2004 04:26:44 PM |
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Shel Scott <WellDone> wrote in news:c527r0h9ermcgpqar0shu5qnnel8lik435@
4ax.com:
And just how the heck do you navel-gazing nitwits expect to "prove"
that any higher -ups ordered this "torture"(tee hee)?
typical bush supporter; laughing at the torture of prisoners.
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