U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could



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Topic: Science > Abortion
User: "Deuteros"
Date: 12 Aug 2005 12:16:16 AM
Object: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could
As I write these words, I'm sitting at a crowded gate at the Los Angeles
airport awaiting the redeye to Roanoke. I've just gone through security
screening, and I've rarely felt so violated. After waiting in line for 25
minutes to check in, I'm told I have to wait again for my bag to be X-rayed.
Another 25 minutes.
Given the amount of free time I had, I decided to spend some of it
contemplating what a thoroughly useless gesture the X-ray screening is. I
understand the purpose is to prevent bombs from finding their way onto
planes through checked bags, but the chances of actually detecting a bomb
from someone who seriously wants to blow up an airplane must surely be
minuscule. But I digress.
No doubt, its real intention is to make travelers feel better, subsidized by
the taxpayers to the tune of God knows how much.
After clearing the X-ray line, it gets interesting. My boarding pass and ID
are checked before proceeding to security. Then, they're checked again by
someone 15 feet away from the first checkpoint who saw me get checked the
first time. Weird.
Then, the actual line for personal screening. Remove the laptop from its
case. Simply can't risk it blowing up. When it's finally my turn to walk
through the metal detector, the gentleman in charge of waving people through
politely reminds me that it's recommended that I remove my shoes.
Then, he reminds me again. I respond, "Yes, I heard you." Another warning,
this time less polite, "We strongly recommend you remove your shoes, sir!"
Again, I respond, "I understand." I walk through the metal detector
uneventfully.
But my friend hasn't forgotten my impertinence. "Now you've done it. You get
to go through the special line!" The special line consisted of five solid
minutes of probing with wands, patting down, spread this way, turn that way,
etc. And I still had to take my shoes off. So, I guess what they mean when
they say that shoe removal is recommended is that it's required. Bizarre.
They should just say that. It would've spared me a public probing that I
could live without.
So, this is the legacy of 9/11. This is part of our fearsome response to the
terrorists. We'll inconvenience them. Doubly so if they don't remove their
shoes. The point of this rambling essay, and I can assure you it does have
one, isn't that one average Joe couldn't be bothered to take his shoes off.
It's the whole security versus freedom issue. How can we legitimately claim
that we're preserving freedom when our response to terrorism is the exactly
opposite of that?
After the collapse of the twin towers, our Congress, in a patriotic fervor
(more exactly described as a mad panic), passed sweeping legislation that
did more to strip away freedom from the American people than 1,000 flying
bombs. The Patriot Act. The very name is cynical.
One observation I've made is how frequently we Americans confuse security
and freedom. Here's an example.
The war in Iraq was justified by claims that Saddam had weapons of mass
destruction and he might use them on us, or he might give them to terrorists
to use on us.
Neglecting for a moment the morphing nature of the justification for the
war, we were, and are, daily informed that our soldiers over there are
fighting for our freedom.
In fact, this isn't true. They're fighting for our security, and even the
truth of that is dubious at best. The only time a war becomes about
preserving the freedom of a nation is when the nation is in some way
threatened with the loss of said freedom.
Despite his presumed madness and regardless of the number of WMD he did or
didn't have, Saddam didn't have the power to remove a single iota of freedom
from any American. No action he could take could conceivably result in a
loss of freedom. There was never even the slightest of chances that we would
see an Iraqi invasion force land on our shores.
Now, one may be able to argue that his remaining in power hypothetically
threatened Americans. But taking someone's life and taking someone's freedom
are two different things. Saddam could only kill me; he couldn't take my
freedom. So logically, it isn't freedom that our troops are fighting for,
but security. But I suppose that makes a somewhat less poetic rallying cry.
Now, the president is a different story. He can actually take away a great
deal of my freedom. And boy, has he been busy!
Ironic that we're actually called to sacrifice portions of our freedom for
the Patriot Act, and the justification is that it preserves freedom. Talk
about Orwellian.
Bush and his cronies are therefore, logically, the real enemies of freedom.
Lest you think me a member of the John Kerry fan club, I think it's fair to
say that there are no greater enemies of freedom than the liberals. I just
think that, in this case, ol' W is giving them a run for their money.
So, let's be honest with ourselves in this debate. Let's not lie and
proclaim "Give me liberty or give me death!" when what we really mean is
"I'm a coward; I surrender the freedoms my forefathers died for in order to
save my miserable hide!" Is that not, after all, exactly what we mean?
http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/29015.html
.

User: "Hey Gyra"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 12 Aug 2005 01:11:58 PM
That reminds me of this little gem from a couple of months ago. Even before
9/11 I looked forward to flying about as much as I did a root canal, thanks
to overbooked flights, crowded terminals, scarce parking, lost baggage,
lousy food, and sardine-can seating. Nowadays I don't fly unless it's
utterly, totally unavoidable
_____________________________________________________
Terminal Futility
Routine airport security won't thwart jihadists, but it does inconvenience
and endanger the rest of us.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, June 6, 2005, at 1:02 PM PT
Is there anyone reading this column who would agree with Mark O. Hatfield
Jr., spokesman for the Transportation Security Administration, that in the
past year "the average peak wait time at [airport] checkpoints has dropped a
minute ... to about 12 minutes"? This is what he was cited as having said,
in a New York Times report of a confidential document from the Department of
Homeland Security. The last time I was at Dulles Airport, the line for
security began at the entrance to the terminal and wound itself in several
rope-line convolutions, like a clogged intestine, for about 40 minutes. I
had allowed the usual two hours and was checking no luggage, but this and
other banana-republic conditions almost made me miss my plane. Nor was it a
"peak time." In any case, a passenger cannot know what a "peak time" will
be. Only the TSA knows how many people are booked on how many flights at a
given hour and can make provision of enough machines and personnel. Or not,
as the case may be.
So, Hatfield was telling me something that I didn't know. The rest of the
report, however, contains things that everyone does know to be true. We
learn that there is no real capacity to detect explosives, for example. And
we learn that, "If, say, a handgun were discovered, the terrorist would have
ample ability to retain control of it. TSA screeners are neither expecting
to encounter a real weapon nor are they trained to gain control of it." Who
hasn't worked that out?
I think I had also noticed that there are not enough plastic bins or tables
to line them up on, and that "X-ray machines that examine carry-on baggage
sit idle as much as 30 per cent of the time." The time elapsed between Sept.
11, 2001, and today's writing (1,364 days) is only slightly less than the
time between Pearl Harbor and the unconditional surrender of Japan (1,365
days). And airport security is still a silly farce that subjects the
law-abiding to collective punishment while presenting almost no deterrent to
a determined suicide-killer.
There is one mercy at least: One no longer sees people smiling and saying,
"Thank you" as their wheelchairs and their children are put through
pointless inspections. But the new form of servile abjection-standing in
sullen lines and just putting up with it-is hardly an improvement. One
sometimes wants to ask, "What's my name?" or, "To what database is this
connected" when someone has just asked for the third time for you to put
down a bag and produce a driver's license. But I think the fear of making
some inscrutable "no-fly" list may inhibit many people. There has never yet
been a hijacker who boarded a plane without taking the trouble to purchase a
ticket and carry an ID. Members of the last successful group were on a
"watch list," for all the difference that made. The next successful group
will not be on a watch list.
Flying from London to Washington the other day, I was told that I was no
longer required to take my computer out of its case. Apparently, there are
scanners that can see though soft cases as well as through the hardened lid
of a laptop (and apparently the United States hasn't managed to invest in
any of these scanners for its domestic airports). On the other hand, I was
asked if I had packed my own bags and if they had been under my control at
all times. This exceptionally stupid pair of questions-to which a terrorist
would have to answer "yes" by definition-is now deemed too stupid for U.S.
domestic purposes and stupid enough only for international travel. This
makes as much sense as diverting a full plane that carries a notorious
Islamist crooner, the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens, from one airport
to another.
Routines and "zero tolerance" exercises will never thwart determined
jihadists who are inventive and who are willing to sacrifice their lives.
That requires inventiveness and initiative. But airport officials are not
allowed to use their initiative. People who have had their names confused
with wanted or suspect people, and who have spent hours proving that they
are who they say they are, are nonetheless compelled to go through the whole
process every time, often with officials who have seen them before and
cleared them before, because the system that never seems to catch anyone can
never seem to let go of anyone, either.
While people are treated as packages, we learn from the same New York Times
account of the still-secret Homeland Security document that "air cargo on
passenger planes is rarely physically inspected today." Imagine, if you
will, the wolfish grin of an al-Qaida fan who reads that sentence. I
sometimes don't want to mention all the other loopholes, in case it gives
ideas to the wrong people, but just imagine for a second that we imposed our
current airport rules on trains, or the subway, or the tunnels and bridges .
What we are looking at, then, is a hugely costly and oppressive system that
is designed to maintain the illusion of safety and the delusion that the
state is protecting its citizens. The main beneficiaries seem to be the
pilferers employed by this vast bureaucracy-we have had several recent
reports about the steep increase in items stolen from luggage. And that is
petty theft that takes place off-stage. What amazes me is the willingness of
Americans to submit to confiscation at the point of search. Every day,
people are relieved of private property in broad daylight, with the sole net
result that they wouldn't have even a nail file with which to protect
themselves if (or rather when) the next hijacking occurs.
Last month, cigarette lighters were added to the confiscation list. There's
probably some half-baked "shoe-bomber" justification for this, but I hear
that at Boise airport in Idaho there's now a lighter bin on the way out of
the airport, like the penny tray in some shops, that allows you to pick one
up. Give one; take one-it all helps to pass the time until the next
disaster, which collective punishment of the law-abiding is doing nothing to
prevent.
http://slate.com/id/2120330/
.
User: "Deuteros"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 12 Aug 2005 10:40:26 AM
"Hey Gyra" <roll_over_m@homet.org> wrote in
news:053Le.45$H04.1949728@news.sisna.com:

That reminds me of this little gem from a couple of months ago. Even
before 9/11 I looked forward to flying about as much as I did a root
canal, thanks to overbooked flights, crowded terminals, scarce parking,
lost baggage, lousy food, and sardine-can seating. Nowadays I don't fly
unless it's utterly, totally unavoidable
_____________________________________________________

Terminal Futility

Routine airport security won't thwart jihadists, but it does
inconvenience and endanger the rest of us.

By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, June 6, 2005, at 1:02 PM PT

Is there anyone reading this column who would agree with Mark O.
Hatfield Jr., spokesman for the Transportation Security Administration,
that in the past year "the average peak wait time at [airport]
checkpoints has dropped a minute ... to about 12 minutes"? This is what
he was cited as having said, in a New York Times report of a
confidential document from the Department of Homeland Security. The last
time I was at Dulles Airport, the line for security began at the
entrance to the terminal and wound itself in several rope-line
convolutions, like a clogged intestine, for about 40 minutes. I had
allowed the usual two hours and was checking no luggage, but this and
other banana-republic conditions almost made me miss my plane. Nor was
it a "peak time." In any case, a passenger cannot know what a "peak
time" will be. Only the TSA knows how many people are booked on how many
flights at a given hour and can make provision of enough machines and
personnel. Or not, as the case may be.

So, Hatfield was telling me something that I didn't know. The rest of
the report, however, contains things that everyone does know to be true.
We learn that there is no real capacity to detect explosives, for
example. And we learn that, "If, say, a handgun were discovered, the
terrorist would have ample ability to retain control of it. TSA
screeners are neither expecting to encounter a real weapon nor are they
trained to gain control of it." Who hasn't worked that out?

I think I had also noticed that there are not enough plastic bins or
tables to line them up on, and that "X-ray machines that examine
carry-on baggage sit idle as much as 30 per cent of the time." The time
elapsed between Sept. 11, 2001, and today's writing (1,364 days) is only
slightly less than the time between Pearl Harbor and the unconditional
surrender of Japan (1,365 days). And airport security is still a silly
farce that subjects the law-abiding to collective punishment while
presenting almost no deterrent to a determined suicide-killer.

There is one mercy at least: One no longer sees people smiling and
saying, "Thank you" as their wheelchairs and their children are put
through pointless inspections. But the new form of servile
abjection-standing in sullen lines and just putting up with it-is hardly
an improvement. One sometimes wants to ask, "What's my name?" or, "To
what database is this connected" when someone has just asked for the
third time for you to put down a bag and produce a driver's license. But
I think the fear of making some inscrutable "no-fly" list may inhibit
many people. There has never yet been a hijacker who boarded a plane
without taking the trouble to purchase a ticket and carry an ID. Members
of the last successful group were on a "watch list," for all the
difference that made. The next successful group will not be on a watch
list.

Flying from London to Washington the other day, I was told that I was no
longer required to take my computer out of its case. Apparently, there
are scanners that can see though soft cases as well as through the
hardened lid of a laptop (and apparently the United States hasn't
managed to invest in any of these scanners for its domestic airports).
On the other hand, I was asked if I had packed my own bags and if they
had been under my control at all times. This exceptionally stupid pair
of questions-to which a terrorist would have to answer "yes" by
definition-is now deemed too stupid for U.S. domestic purposes and
stupid enough only for international travel. This makes as much sense as
diverting a full plane that carries a notorious Islamist crooner, the
artist formerly known as Cat Stevens, from one airport to another.

Routines and "zero tolerance" exercises will never thwart determined
jihadists who are inventive and who are willing to sacrifice their
lives. That requires inventiveness and initiative. But airport officials
are not allowed to use their initiative. People who have had their names
confused with wanted or suspect people, and who have spent hours proving
that they are who they say they are, are nonetheless compelled to go
through the whole process every time, often with officials who have seen
them before and cleared them before, because the system that never seems
to catch anyone can never seem to let go of anyone, either.

While people are treated as packages, we learn from the same New York
Times account of the still-secret Homeland Security document that "air
cargo on passenger planes is rarely physically inspected today."
Imagine, if you will, the wolfish grin of an al-Qaida fan who reads that
sentence. I sometimes don't want to mention all the other loopholes, in
case it gives ideas to the wrong people, but just imagine for a second
that we imposed our current airport rules on trains, or the subway, or
the tunnels and bridges .

What we are looking at, then, is a hugely costly and oppressive system
that is designed to maintain the illusion of safety and the delusion
that the state is protecting its citizens. The main beneficiaries seem
to be the pilferers employed by this vast bureaucracy-we have had
several recent reports about the steep increase in items stolen from
luggage. And that is petty theft that takes place off-stage. What amazes
me is the willingness of Americans to submit to confiscation at the
point of search. Every day, people are relieved of private property in
broad daylight, with the sole net result that they wouldn't have even a
nail file with which to protect themselves if (or rather when) the next
hijacking occurs.

Last month, cigarette lighters were added to the confiscation list.
There's probably some half-baked "shoe-bomber" justification for this,
but I hear that at Boise airport in Idaho there's now a lighter bin on
the way out of the airport, like the penny tray in some shops, that
allows you to pick one up. Give one; take one-it all helps to pass the
time until the next disaster, which collective punishment of the
law-abiding is doing nothing to prevent.


http://slate.com/id/2120330/

Great post!
.


User: "Spectre"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 12 Aug 2005 06:13:44 PM
Think of the most beautiful response to 9/11 - I would say that it would
be to completely ignore it. Rebuild the towers in exactly the same
manner as the were before, make no changes whatsoever to our style of
life. If it happens again - ignore it again.
Deuteros wrote:

As I write these words, I'm sitting at a crowded gate at the Los Angeles
airport awaiting the redeye to Roanoke. I've just gone through security
screening, and I've rarely felt so violated. After waiting in line for 25
minutes to check in, I'm told I have to wait again for my bag to be X-rayed.
Another 25 minutes.

Given the amount of free time I had, I decided to spend some of it
contemplating what a thoroughly useless gesture the X-ray screening is. I
understand the purpose is to prevent bombs from finding their way onto
planes through checked bags, but the chances of actually detecting a bomb
from someone who seriously wants to blow up an airplane must surely be
minuscule. But I digress.

No doubt, its real intention is to make travelers feel better, subsidized by
the taxpayers to the tune of God knows how much.

After clearing the X-ray line, it gets interesting. My boarding pass and ID
are checked before proceeding to security. Then, they're checked again by
someone 15 feet away from the first checkpoint who saw me get checked the
first time. Weird.

Then, the actual line for personal screening. Remove the laptop from its
case. Simply can't risk it blowing up. When it's finally my turn to walk
through the metal detector, the gentleman in charge of waving people through
politely reminds me that it's recommended that I remove my shoes.

Then, he reminds me again. I respond, "Yes, I heard you." Another warning,
this time less polite, "We strongly recommend you remove your shoes, sir!"
Again, I respond, "I understand." I walk through the metal detector
uneventfully.

But my friend hasn't forgotten my impertinence. "Now you've done it. You get
to go through the special line!" The special line consisted of five solid
minutes of probing with wands, patting down, spread this way, turn that way,
etc. And I still had to take my shoes off. So, I guess what they mean when
they say that shoe removal is recommended is that it's required. Bizarre.
They should just say that. It would've spared me a public probing that I
could live without.

So, this is the legacy of 9/11. This is part of our fearsome response to the
terrorists. We'll inconvenience them. Doubly so if they don't remove their
shoes. The point of this rambling essay, and I can assure you it does have
one, isn't that one average Joe couldn't be bothered to take his shoes off.
It's the whole security versus freedom issue. How can we legitimately claim
that we're preserving freedom when our response to terrorism is the exactly
opposite of that?

After the collapse of the twin towers, our Congress, in a patriotic fervor
(more exactly described as a mad panic), passed sweeping legislation that
did more to strip away freedom from the American people than 1,000 flying
bombs. The Patriot Act. The very name is cynical.

One observation I've made is how frequently we Americans confuse security
and freedom. Here's an example.

The war in Iraq was justified by claims that Saddam had weapons of mass
destruction and he might use them on us, or he might give them to terrorists
to use on us.

Neglecting for a moment the morphing nature of the justification for the
war, we were, and are, daily informed that our soldiers over there are
fighting for our freedom.

In fact, this isn't true. They're fighting for our security, and even the
truth of that is dubious at best. The only time a war becomes about
preserving the freedom of a nation is when the nation is in some way
threatened with the loss of said freedom.

Despite his presumed madness and regardless of the number of WMD he did or
didn't have, Saddam didn't have the power to remove a single iota of freedom
from any American. No action he could take could conceivably result in a
loss of freedom. There was never even the slightest of chances that we would
see an Iraqi invasion force land on our shores.

Now, one may be able to argue that his remaining in power hypothetically
threatened Americans. But taking someone's life and taking someone's freedom
are two different things. Saddam could only kill me; he couldn't take my
freedom. So logically, it isn't freedom that our troops are fighting for,
but security. But I suppose that makes a somewhat less poetic rallying cry.

Now, the president is a different story. He can actually take away a great
deal of my freedom. And boy, has he been busy!

Ironic that we're actually called to sacrifice portions of our freedom for
the Patriot Act, and the justification is that it preserves freedom. Talk
about Orwellian.

Bush and his cronies are therefore, logically, the real enemies of freedom.
Lest you think me a member of the John Kerry fan club, I think it's fair to
say that there are no greater enemies of freedom than the liberals. I just
think that, in this case, ol' W is giving them a run for their money.

So, let's be honest with ourselves in this debate. Let's not lie and
proclaim "Give me liberty or give me death!" when what we really mean is
"I'm a coward; I surrender the freedoms my forefathers died for in order to
save my miserable hide!" Is that not, after all, exactly what we mean?

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/29015.html

.
User: "Nog"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 13 Aug 2005 08:45:50 AM
"Spectre" <spectre@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:I2aLe.171771$HI.96450@edtnps84...

Think of the most beautiful response to 9/11 - I would say that it would
be to completely ignore it. Rebuild the towers in exactly the same manner
as the were before, make no changes whatsoever to our style of life. If it
happens again - ignore it again.

What actually happens is if foreign terrorists attack your country, treat
all your citizens like potential terrorists. (WHAT????)
Yes, If Hitler had bombed us we would treat all our citizens like Nazis.
This is the logic of fucked up leaders. Maybe our leaders ARE the
terrorists.
.
User: "Deuteros"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 13 Aug 2005 09:41:44 AM
"Nog" <nognog@adelphia.net> wrote in
news:a5qdndHu_YYeZGDfRVn-pg@adelphia.com:

"Spectre" <spectre@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:I2aLe.171771$HI.96450@edtnps84...

Think of the most beautiful response to 9/11 - I would say that it
would be to completely ignore it. Rebuild the towers in exactly the
same manner as the were before, make no changes whatsoever to our style
of life. If it happens again - ignore it again.


What actually happens is if foreign terrorists attack your country,
treat all your citizens like potential terrorists. (WHAT????)
Yes, If Hitler had bombed us we would treat all our citizens like Nazis.
This is the logic of fucked up leaders. Maybe our leaders ARE the
terrorists.

Kind of like the Patriot Act. They want us to give up our freedoms to
preserve our freedoms.
.


User: "Ray Fischer"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 25 Aug 2005 06:40:01 PM
Spectre <spectre@yahoo.com> wrote:

Think of the most beautiful response to 9/11 - I would say that it would
be to completely ignore it. Rebuild the towers in exactly the same
manner as the were before, make no changes whatsoever to our style of
life. If it happens again - ignore it again.

Won't happen. Americans are too scared.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
User: "Z"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 25 Aug 2005 09:32:14 PM
A SHORT HISTORY LESSON
Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the
following multiple choice test.
The events are actual Events from history.
They actually happened!
Do you remember?
1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by
a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and
40
2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were
kidnapped and massacred by
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were
kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown
up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked
and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and
thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and
a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was
murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first
time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania
were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild
Bill's women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were
used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers
and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US
Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the
passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer
Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in
Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and
murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40
Nope, ..I really don't see a pattern here to justify
profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never
offend ! anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing
us, airport security screeners will no longer be
allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct
random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids,
airline pilots with proper identification, secret
agents who are members of the President's security
detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and
Medal of Honor winning and former Governor Joe Foss,
but leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40
alone lest they be guilty of profiling.
And guess who just bombed London? or the trains in Madrid? or ......
Jamie Gorlick? John Kerry? Ted Kennedy? Or someone else? Who could it be
all over the world?
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message
news:delksh$333$1@bolt.sonic.net...

Spectre <spectre@yahoo.com> wrote:

Think of the most beautiful response to 9/11 - I would say that it would
be to completely ignore it. Rebuild the towers in exactly the same
manner as the were before, make no changes whatsoever to our style of
life. If it happens again - ignore it again.


Won't happen. Americans are too scared.

--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net

.
User: "Ray Fischer"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 25 Aug 2005 11:29:30 PM
Z <Z@FreeDamn.Com> wrote:

A SHORT HISTORY LESSON

Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the
following multiple choice test.

The events are actual Events from history.

They actually happened!

Do you remember?

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by

a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and
40

Because the US supported an oppressive anti-arab regime.

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were
kidnapped and massacred by

a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

Because of continued support for an oppressive anti-arab regime.

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:

a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

Because of US support for a murderous dictatorship that killed
thousands of Iranians.

4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were
kidnapped in Lebanon by:

a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

Because of continued support for an oppressive anti-arab regime.
(Starting to get the common thread in this?)

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown
up by:

a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

Because of continued US support for an oppressive anti-arab regime.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.




User: ""

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 12 Aug 2005 07:49:34 AM
Washington has done far more to kill off the airline industry than
al-Qaeda ever could have hoped to. With it now - counting all ground
time - taking longer to fly commercial than drive any trip under 500+
miles, why the hell would anyone pay to be treated this way to get
from, say, Cleveland to Pittsburgh, when they could be at their final
destination sooner if they drove it?
Domestic air travel is a CONVENIENCE industry. More hassles and more
indignities to using it, fewer customers and it goes broke - as it
should.
Browse this gun show for FREE! Shop the
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW
.
User: "osprey"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 12 Aug 2005 01:05:01 PM
wrote:

Washington has done far more to kill off the airline industry than
al-Qaeda ever could have hoped to. With it now - counting all ground
time - taking longer to fly commercial than drive any trip under 500+
miles, why the hell would anyone pay to be treated this way to get
from, say, Cleveland to Pittsburgh, when they could be at their final
destination sooner if they drove it?
Domestic air travel is a CONVENIENCE industry. More hassles and more
indignities to using it, fewer customers and it goes broke - as it
should.

Browse this gun show for FREE! Shop the
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW

And if Government did nothing to improve or heighten airport security,
you all would be bitching about that too.
.
User: "Deuteros"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 13 Aug 2005 09:38:25 AM
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
news:1123869901.165164.307780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

editor@netpath.net wrote:

Washington has done far more to kill off the airline industry than
al-Qaeda ever could have hoped to. With it now - counting all ground
time - taking longer to fly commercial than drive any trip under 500+
miles, why the hell would anyone pay to be treated this way to get
from, say, Cleveland to Pittsburgh, when they could be at their final
destination sooner if they drove it?
Domestic air travel is a CONVENIENCE industry. More hassles and more
indignities to using it, fewer customers and it goes broke - as it
should.

Browse this gun show for FREE! Shop the
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW


And if Government did nothing to improve or heighten airport security,
you all would be bitching about that too.

Airport security should be given over to the private sector. The government
is too incompetant and the searches violate the fourth amendment.
.
User: "osprey"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 13 Aug 2005 09:46:47 AM
Deuteros wrote:

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
news:1123869901.165164.307780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

editor@netpath.net wrote:

Washington has done far more to kill off the airline industry than
al-Qaeda ever could have hoped to. With it now - counting all ground
time - taking longer to fly commercial than drive any trip under 500+
miles, why the hell would anyone pay to be treated this way to get
from, say, Cleveland to Pittsburgh, when they could be at their final
destination sooner if they drove it?
Domestic air travel is a CONVENIENCE industry. More hassles and more
indignities to using it, fewer customers and it goes broke - as it
should.

Browse this gun show for FREE! Shop the
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW


And if Government did nothing to improve or heighten airport security,
you all would be bitching about that too.


Airport security should be given over to the private sector. The government
is too incompetant and the searches violate the fourth amendment.

Please tell me specifically how the searches violate the fourth
amendment and why some hotshot attorney hasn't taken any of this to
court?
If there was a violation, I am sure that the courts would be overwelmed
by now with greedy attorneys eager to sue.
.


User: "Slate"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 12 Aug 2005 02:54:36 PM
On 12 Aug 2005 11:05:01 -0700, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:


editor@netpath.net wrote:

Washington has done far more to kill off the airline industry than
al-Qaeda ever could have hoped to. With it now - counting all ground
time - taking longer to fly commercial than drive any trip under 500+
miles, why the hell would anyone pay to be treated this way to get
from, say, Cleveland to Pittsburgh, when they could be at their final
destination sooner if they drove it?
Domestic air travel is a CONVENIENCE industry. More hassles and more
indignities to using it, fewer customers and it goes broke - as it
should.

Browse this gun show for FREE! Shop the
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW


And if Government did nothing to improve or heighten airport security,
you all would be bitching about that too.

Are you in favor of a ~National ID Card~ system being implemented
in the U.S.?
Slate
.
User: "BOB"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 12 Aug 2005 03:02:05 PM
Slate <slate_1947_@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ffvpf19qg1vgcacvoj0ghdi7e4qs9ncd8i@4ax.com:

On 12 Aug 2005 11:05:01 -0700, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:


editor@netpath.net wrote:

Washington has done far more to kill off the airline industry than
al-Qaeda ever could have hoped to. With it now - counting all ground
time - taking longer to fly commercial than drive any trip under 500+
miles, why the hell would anyone pay to be treated this way to get
from, say, Cleveland to Pittsburgh, when they could be at their final
destination sooner if they drove it?
Domestic air travel is a CONVENIENCE industry. More hassles and more
indignities to using it, fewer customers and it goes broke - as it
should.

Browse this gun show for FREE! Shop the
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW


And if Government did nothing to improve or heighten airport security,
you all would be bitching about that too.


Are you in favor of a ~National ID Card~ system being implemented
in the U.S.?

Slate


I would like to hear more of the details about it. I could go either way
at present.

.
User: "Slate"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 12 Aug 2005 04:36:09 PM
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:02:05 GMT, BOB <sd@sd.net> wrote:

Slate <slate_1947_@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ffvpf19qg1vgcacvoj0ghdi7e4qs9ncd8i@4ax.com:

On 12 Aug 2005 11:05:01 -0700, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:


editor@netpath.net wrote:

Washington has done far more to kill off the airline industry than
al-Qaeda ever could have hoped to. With it now - counting all ground
time - taking longer to fly commercial than drive any trip under 500+
miles, why the hell would anyone pay to be treated this way to get
from, say, Cleveland to Pittsburgh, when they could be at their final
destination sooner if they drove it?
Domestic air travel is a CONVENIENCE industry. More hassles and more
indignities to using it, fewer customers and it goes broke - as it
should.

Browse this gun show for FREE! Shop the
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW


And if Government did nothing to improve or heighten airport security,
you all would be bitching about that too.


Are you in favor of a ~National ID Card~ system being implemented
in the U.S.?

Slate


I would like to hear more of the details about it. I could go either way
at present.

I'm also sitting on the fence at the moment. It's not just the
Orwellian implications, it also involves my complete lack of
confidence, trust, and motives of the present administration.
We'll see.
Slate
.
User: "BOB"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 12 Aug 2005 06:00:19 PM
Slate <slate_1947_@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:d84qf1lkgtminera1ir74bj0044eheo4g7@4ax.com:

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:02:05 GMT, BOB <sd@sd.net> wrote:

Slate <slate_1947_@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ffvpf19qg1vgcacvoj0ghdi7e4qs9ncd8i@4ax.com:

On 12 Aug 2005 11:05:01 -0700, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:


editor@netpath.net wrote:

Washington has done far more to kill off the airline industry than
al-Qaeda ever could have hoped to. With it now - counting all
ground time - taking longer to fly commercial than drive any trip
under 500+ miles, why the hell would anyone pay to be treated this
way to get from, say, Cleveland to Pittsburgh, when they could be
at their final destination sooner if they drove it?
Domestic air travel is a CONVENIENCE industry. More hassles and
more indignities to using it, fewer customers and it goes broke -
as it should.

Browse this gun show for FREE! Shop the
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW


And if Government did nothing to improve or heighten airport
security, you all would be bitching about that too.


Are you in favor of a ~National ID Card~ system being implemented
in the U.S.?

Slate


I would like to hear more of the details about it. I could go either
way at present.


I'm also sitting on the fence at the moment. It's not just the
Orwellian implications, it also involves my complete lack of
confidence, trust, and motives of the present administration.
We'll see.


Slate

I share your distrust of the present administration and add my profound
distaste. However with any luck and if common sense prevails, they will
be gone in a couple more years and we might hopefully have more competent
people in charge.

.



User: "osprey"

Title: Re: U.S. strips more freedom from citizens than terrorists ever could 12 Aug 2005 06:17:56 PM
Slate wrote:

On 12 Aug 2005 11:05:01 -0700, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:


editor@netpath.net wrote:

Washington has done far more to kill off the airline industry than
al-Qaeda ever could have hoped to. With it now - counting all ground
time - taking longer to fly commercial than drive any trip under 500+
miles, why the hell would anyone pay to be treated this way to get
from, say, Cleveland to Pittsburgh, when they could be at their final
destination sooner if they drove it?
Domestic air travel is a CONVENIENCE industry. More hassles and more
indignities to using it, fewer customers and it goes broke - as it
should.

Browse this gun show for FREE! Shop the
http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW


And if Government did nothing to improve or heighten airport security,
you all would be bitching about that too.


Are you in favor of a ~National ID Card~ system being implemented
in the U.S.?

Yes


Slate

.





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