Offering facts to this pro-abort pro-choice crowd is a waste of time.

"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
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"Dorothy" <Zuukie@Comcast_nospam_.net> wrote in message
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"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
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"Papa Jack" <papajack@stic.net> wrote in message
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snipped to relevent points<<<<

Excerpts:
[...]

Long before the formal acceptance of euthanasia in countries
like the Netherlands, Koop and Schaeffer saw the rise of a

to die' argument used against the old, the very sick, and the
unproductive. They rejected euthanasia in the case of a

led vegetative existence" and warned all humanity that

awaited a society that lusted for a 'beautiful death.'

Rather than just mindlessly regurgitating run of the mill Christian
fundamentalist drivel, you might want to actually *enlighten

from

time to time, PJ. Here's some actual facts(!), sans your offering's
emotion-laden histrionics:
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/law/safeguards.asp

"Everything else simply follows. 'In this setting, abortion,
infanticide, and euthanasia . . . are completely logical.
Any person can be obliterated for what society at one moment
thinks of as its own social or economic good.'

Went to the site. I think all of those "safeguards" were in place in
Holland. Didn't help very much at all. I guess all of the people on

top

of the website are smiling because they now know they can legally kill

themselves. Please, not all of us are sucker enough to buy into good

public relations for death.

Again, Dotty offers up an emotional rant devoid of any supporting

evidence.

You're not really catching on, are you?

I caught on a long time ago. Offering facts to this pro-abort pro-choice
crowd is a waste of time.

and the response it...it's a lie. End of discussion.

are pro-life are supposed to bend. Nietzsche spoke that all things are a
matter of will vs will and the stronger will will deserves to conquer. It
was a philosophy that the Nazis loved. Knowing this is the game played on
this newsgroup, I just stand back and am amused by the attempts of the
pro-abort pro-choicers to impose their will. It's cheaper entertainment
than going to the movies.

How do I know it's a tactic? From Norma McCorvey's testimony
http://www.roenomore.org/normas_story/testimony.htm

"During one abortion day confrontation, I charged up to Anne Hollacher, an
O.R. volunteer who was holding a picket sign, and yelled, "You can't park

the same place you're picketing. Move the car!" "No, I'm not moving my

Anne responded. "This is our parking lot too."

"I called Anne every name I could think of, which was usually enough to

the toughest protesters wilt, but Anne maintained her composure. When I

that Anne wouldn't budge, I spit in her face. Anne smiled. I was furious.
"How dare you look at me like that?" I screamed. "How dare you smile at

Anne politely wiped the spit off her face with her sleeve. "Jesus loves

and so do I" she said. "And I forgive you."

I don't give a hoot about forgiving you nor am I calling you to mellow.

not that kindhearted. My writing skills are not as good as those of
Tripping in Tempur Fields who did an excellent job of analyzing the

used, but I do recognize the tactics used by most of the pro-abort
pro-choice posters here, and I'm more amused than anything else.

snip<<<

"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
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"Papa Jack" <papajack@stic.net> wrote in message
news:6f9e1b49.0402051441.75df4b27@posting.google.com...
snipped<<
My comment stands as accurate.

Would you accept fundamentalist pagan slants? But then again it seems as

they are talking about as it relates to their religious beliefs whether
Christian, Jewish or Muslim. They know the fundamentals.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
...run of the mill Christian fundamentalist drivel,...

====================================================================
Papa Jack asked:
Why do you call the book _Whatever Happened to
the Human Race?_ by Francis Schaeffer and C.
Everett Koop "...run of the mill Christian
fundamentalist drivel?"

Is that the depth of your scholarship -- just
sling a few negative adjectives at a book and
expect your readers to simply trust your word
for it?

I don't view the world from an evangelicals' perspective, if that's your
point. You do. Vive le difference...

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
...you might want to actually *enlighten yourself*
from time to time, PJ. Here's some actual facts(!),
sans your offering's emotion-laden histrionics:

http://www.deathwithdignity.org/law/safeguards.asp

====================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
Yep, very interesting. Clearly this group is an
active participant in what the Pope called the
Culture of Death.

LOL. In light of the sordid history of the papacy, your continued

Thankfully, the Pope has about as much influence in my life as Louis
Farrakhan. I really don't give a care for either of their worldviews.
That is, until they attempt to foist their visions on me.

Oh please say you are not influenced by any worldviews. You have accepted
New Age beliefs without ever analyzing their basis so trusting and naive
that you are.

The page gives this description:

"The Death with Dignity National Center
(DDNC) is the organization that has
successfully proposed, passed, defended
and helped implement a first-in-the
nation law that allows terminally ill
individuals meeting stringent safeguards,
to hasten their own deaths."

There are many dangers in this concept. I'm sure
it's all very well-thought out and careful at this
stage. But, as time passes, what will protect us
from the same sort of cruel and barbaric reasoning
that Pro-Aborts use to justify killing unborn
children?

Rule of law? Enlightened self interest? You really are a cynical old

No street smarts in your comments Loose.

Like Dorothy before you, all you can come up with is fear and BS. You
can't be that simple. Or could you?

The reality is that those with street smarts are not suckered in by New
Age bull. Those who are full of themselves and know little about human
nature are New Age followers.

If you bothered to look a little deeper, you'd find that the measure was
voted on twice, gathering an even larger vote the second time around.
You'd also find very specific guidelines for compliance.

GIGO - Garbage in, garbage out. Feed the public garbage about euthanasia
and they will regurgitate it out.

For you, I suspect a terminal diagnosis would be a way for you to test

your "faith". So be it. You should have the opportunity to deal with
end-of-life issues as you please, in accordance with your particular brand

Otoh, some of us prefer not to spend our end days in critical care, in a
painful, protracted death. YMMV. Feel free to go out as "God" would have

it.

The option *should* be yours.

My own view was informed by the experiences I had watching a loved one
spend the last three months of her life in the most unpleasant,

dehumanizing

circumstances one might imagine. Until you've held a loved one's head,

they throw up their stomach lining, hooked up to a morphine drip, yet in
pain you can't even imagine...spare me your condescending BS.
You really have *no* clue.

Didn't her living will enable her to be killed off?

gun to her head? You just wanted someone to do the killing so you

have to face the consequences. You put your self interests above your
concern for her so don't parade that concern here as if you really cared.

====================================================================

Papa Jack quoted:
"Everything else simply follows. 'In this setting,
abortion, infanticide, and euthanasia . . . are
completely logical. Any person can be obliterated
for what society at one moment thinks of as its
own social or economic good.'

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
You and Dotty ought to hook up. You're both cribbing
from the same book.

====================================================================
Papa Jack smiled:
So? That ain't bad is it?

Not if you're also incapable of thinking for yourself. You both

seem to have no faith in people.

Faith in people like you? Sorry street smarts keep me away from such
foolishness. You are not trustworthy.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
"At least two-thirds of our miseries spring from human
stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and
justifiers of malice and stupidity: idealism, dogmatism
and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religous or political
ideas."~Aldous Huxley

====================================================================
Papa Jack

"...Brave New World (1932), the most popular of his
(Aldous Huxley's) novels, presents a nightmarish,
dystopian civilization in the 25th cent..."

http://www.bartleby.com/65/hu/HuxleyAl.html

I'm sure The Death with Dignity National Center would
have felt right at home in Huxley's Brave New World.

Wow. That's real deep, Bagdad Jack. You're in favor of mandated

Parroting Ray are you? Well, birds of a feather do flock together.

Thanks for considering my point of view.

© Lifenews, AbortionFacts, Crosswalk, whatever...

"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:<eFDUb.11863$jH6.7466@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

"Papa Jack" <papajack@stic.net> wrote:

"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote:

"Papa Jack" <papajack@stic.net> wrote:

====================================================================

Papa Jack cited:
On Feb. 3,2004, Crosswalk.com posted an article by
Albert Mohler titled: "Whatever Happened to the Human Race?"

http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/1243260.html
_______________________________________________________________________

Excerpts:

[...]

"This year marks the 25th anniversary of _Whatever Happened
to the Human Race?_ by Francis Schaeffer and C. Everett Koop.
The anniversary serves to remind us all of just how unaware
and unawake most evangelicals really were twenty-five years
ago -- and how prophetic were the voices of Schaeffer and
Koop.

snipped to relevent points<<<<

Long before the formal acceptance of euthanasia
in countries like the Netherlands, Koop and
Schaeffer saw the rise of a 'duty to die' argu-
ment used against the old, the very sick, and the
unproductive. They rejected euthanasia in the case
of a 'so-called vegetative existence" and warned
all humanity that disaster awaited a society that
lusted for a 'beautiful death.'

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
Rather than just mindlessly regurgitating...

====================================================================

Papa Jack stated:
Hmmmm. When I first started posting to talk.abortion
several years ago, the great majority of messages
were simply flames. It reminded me of a grade school
playground with 8 and 9 year old brats trying to
outcuss one another.

In an effort to give us something to actually discuss,
I began selecting and quoting various articles from
a wide variety of sources.

There is still far too much "playground" flaming on
talk.abortion, but we at least can choose to actually
discuss the issues.

If that is "...mindlessly regurgitating," so be it.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
That *is* your schtick, PJ. Cut and paste whatever
fundamentalist-slanted offering crosses your path.
Cap off with an inane "point of view", which is
generally little more than your re-phrasing.of the
original article. So be it.

My comment stands as accurate.

====================================================================
Papa Jack smiled:
Accurate? More like just one more childish playground
flame. Do you keep score on how many silly insults
you include in a given message?

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
...run of the mill Christian fundamentalist drivel,...

====================================================================

Papa Jack asked:
Why do you call the book _Whatever Happened to
the Human Race?_ by Francis Schaeffer and C.
Everett Koop "...run of the mill Christian
fundamentalist drivel?"

Is that the depth of your scholarship -- just
sling a few negative adjectives at a book and
expect your readers to simply trust your word
for it?

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
I don't view the world from an evangelicals' perspective,
if that's your point. You do. Vive le difference...

====================================================================
Papa Jack commented:
There were two authors of the book in question. One was
Dr. C. Everett Koop. Just a snip of his long biography:

"Dr. Koop was appointed Deputy Assistant Secretary
for Health, U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) in
March 1981 and was sworn in as the U.S. Surgeon
General on November 17, 1981. He was also appointed
Director of the Office of International Health in
May 1982. As Surgeon General, Dr. Koop oversaw the
activities of the 6,000 member PHS Commissioned
Corps and advised the public on a variety of health
matters: smoking and health, diet and nutrition,
environmental health hazards, and the importance of
immunization and disease prevention. He also became
the government's chief spokesman on AIDS. He resigned
as Surgeon General on October 1, 1989 and continues
to be a force for public health and health education
through his writings, electronic media, public appear-
ances, personal contacts, and as Senior Scholar of the
C. Everett Koop Institute
at Dartmouth."

tmouth.edu%2Fdms%2Fkoop%2F

Not exactly JUST "an evangelicals' perspective,."

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
...you might want to actually *enlighten yourself*
from time to time, PJ. Here's some actual facts(!),
sans your offering's emotion-laden histrionics:

http://www.deathwithdignity.org/law/safeguards.asp

====================================================================

Papa Jack remarked:
Yep, very interesting. Clearly this group is an
active participant in what the Pope called the
Culture of Death.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
LOL. In light of the sordid history of the papacy,...

====================================================================
Papa Jack nodded:
I'm well aware of the "sordid history" of the papacy.
My favorite reference is _The Faith_ by Brian Moynahan.

BTW, I'm not a Catholic.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
...your continued linking of the Pope with the
"Culture of Death" is far more accurate than you
realize.

====================================================================
Papa Jack smiled:
I'm just giving the Pope credit for coining the
phrase. I agree it's a very accurate description
of the Pro-Abort crowd.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
It's completely fitting that the irony flies right
over your head.

====================================================================
Papa Jack laughs:
I understand you have a desperate need to find
ways to smear any individual who is a religious
leader. I don't know how to help you there.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
Thankfully, the Pope has about as much influence in
my life as Louis Farrakhan. I really don't give a
care for either of their worldviews. That is, until
they attempt to foist their visions on me.

====================================================================
Papa Jack laughed:
Well, Farrakhan would love to "foist" his views on
you -- probably in ways you would find very
uncomfortable.

====================================================================

Papa Jack wrote:
The page gives this description:

"The Death with Dignity National Center
(DDNC) is the organization that has
successfully proposed, passed, defended
and helped implement a first-in-the
nation law that allows terminally ill
individuals meeting stringent safeguards,
to hasten their own deaths."

There are many dangers in this concept. I'm sure
it's all very well-thought out and careful at this
stage. But, as time passes, what will protect us
from the same sort of cruel and barbaric reasoning
that Pro-Aborts use to justify killing unborn
children?

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
Rule of law? Enlightened self interest? You really
are a cynical old fart.

====================================================================
Papa Jack nodded:
Yep. Guilty as charged. Probable comes from over
20 years experience in the police field (including
being police chief at 4 AF bases). That will tend
to make one a bit cynical about how much to trust
people on subjects like this. After I "retired"
from the Air Force, I worked for another 10 years
in a mental health/mental retardation center for a
major city. That also gave me an understanding of
just how cruel people could be to those who are
vulnerable. Even, once in awhile, the doctors who
are trusted to care for them.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
Like Dorothy before you, all you can come up with
is fear and BS. You can't be that simple. Or could
you?

====================================================================
Papa Jack shook his head:
So, anyone who disagrees with you only uses "fear and
BS." Guess I'm just that "simple."

You see, Loose, your childish digs mean nothing to me.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
If you bothered to look a little deeper, you'd find
that the measure was voted on twice, gathering an
even larger vote the second time around. You'd also
find very specific guidelines for compliance.

====================================================================
Papa Jack stated:
So, what's your point? You're trying to support laws
to allow killing old folks to go along with the laws
which allow the killing of unborn children. I don't
care how much sugar and cream you slather on that
concept, I don't trust politicians and doctors enough
to give them that sort of authority.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
For you, I suspect a terminal diagnosis would be a
way for you to test your "faith". So be it. You
should have the opportunity to deal with end-of-life
issues as you please, in accordance with your partic-
ular brand of "faith".

====================================================================
Papa Jack stated:
I'm very close to that "terminal diagnosis" right
now.

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
Otoh, some of us prefer not to spend our end days
in critical care, in a painful, protracted death.
YMMV. Feel free to go out as "God" would have it.
The option *should* be yours.

====================================================================
Papa Jack asked:
Ever hear of a living will?

====================================================================

Loose Cannon wrote:
My own view was informed by the experiences I had
watching a loved one spend the last three months
of her life in the most unpleasant, dehumanizing
circumstances one might imagine. Until you've held
a loved one's head, as they throw up their stomach
lining, hooked up to a morphine