What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?

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Topic:	Science > Abortion
User:	"Sound of Trumpet"
Date:	03 Jun 2006 05:37:15 PM
Object:	What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/patbuchanan/2006/06/02/199598.html
Brave new world
Jun 2, 2006
by Pat Buchanan
Writing in that fateful year, 1939, T.S. Eliot, intellectual and
Christian, admonished his contemporaries who had placed their faith in
the triumph of democracy. Democracy is not enough, Eliot wrote.
"As political philosophy derives its sanction from ethics, and ethics
from the truth of religion, it is only by returning to the eternal
source of truth that we can hope for any social organization which will
not, to its ultimate destruction, ignore some essential aspect of
reality.
"The term 'democracy,' as I have said again and again, does not
contain enough positive content to stand alone against the forces you
dislike -- it can easily be transformed by them. If you will not have
God (and He is a jealous God), you should pay your respects to Hitler
and Stalin."
When Eliot wrote, the world had before it a textbook example of how
democracy can be exploited by its enemies: the Third Reich.
After his failed Beer Hall Putsch in 1923, Hitler decided to take the
longer road to power, the democracy road.
Named chancellor of Germany as leader of the largest minority party in
the Reichstag in 1933, Hitler used plebiscites to enable the German
people to participate in his rule and ratify his policies. After the
reoccupation of the Rhineland and the Anschluss with Austria, national
referenda were held. Up to 99 percent of all Germans endorsed his
actions. By Munich, he was the most popular political leader in Europe.
This, then, is the point. Democracy is but a process by which people
participate in choosing and confirming their rulers. But if the peoples
of Europe have lost their belief in the truths of Christianity -- the
faith that made Europe -- and the morality and ethics derived from
those truths, they can wind up with a hell on earth.
Which brings us to Holland, a nation that can rightfully claim to be
in the avant-garde of post-Christian Europe.
In Amsterdam, in the Red Light District, there are brothels, sex shop
and sex museums. Women advertise their charms in storefronts. Window
prostitution has been legalized, as has possession of marijuana and
hashish, which are sold over the counter in coffee shops. Drugs are
done openly. Pornography is pervasive.
Amsterdam has a "liberal and tolerant attitude," runs a web ad.
"Instead of criminalizing everything, this upfront city wears its heart
on its sleeve." Not to be outdone, Utrecht has a canal-based red light
district. Rotterdam has sex clubs and private houses for the legalized
enjoyment of the pleasures of the flesh.
Holland also leads Europe in the "liberal and tolerant" stance it has
taken toward suicide. In April 2002, a Dutch law took effect permitting
physicians to assist in euthanasia and suicides so long as the
procedure is carried out in a medically appropriate fashion.
Anyone 16 or over has a right to suicide. If you are between 12 and
16, you have to get your guardian's approval to kill yourself. In World
War II, the Dutch doctors who resisted the Nazi euthanasia program were
heroes. Apparently, those doctors were just behind the times.
The latest news from Holland is that a new party is about to be
formed, the Charity, Freedom and Diversity Party. Principal platform
plank: reduction of the legal age for sex from 16 to 12 years old.
"We are going to shake The Hague awake!" say the pedophiles of
Holland, for whom dropping the age for sex to 12 is but the beginning.
They wish to eradicate all prohibitions on sex with children and with
animals.
This, of course, would cheer the late Dr. Alfred Kinsey, the American
sexologist whose "researchers" either abused scores of children and
infants, or who used the testimony of child-molesters to make the case
that adult-child sex can be beneficial to both.
Which brings us back to Eliot's point. If one rejects Christianity,
and the morality and ethics that proceed from it, on what ground does
one stand to outlaw drugs, prostitution, euthanasia, assisted suicide
and sex with children or dogs?
Holland today, and America -- with its toll of aborted babies now
nearing the 50 million mark since Roe v. Wade -- raise profound
questions for conservatives and traditionalists.
What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved
society? Do we still owe it allegiance and loyalty? Does a community
have the right to impose its values, if those values are rooted in
religion, on a minority that disbelieves in those values? We certainly
did that during the civil rights era of the 1960s.
At what point does a regime, even if democratically elected, become
illegitimate, as surely Hitler's was by the time Eliot wrote?
"What makes you think the West is worth saving?" the priest asked
Whittaker Chambers when he visited him in that hospital room in the
1950s. Good question then. Better question now.
Perhaps the Muslims, who may well be a majority in Amsterdam,
Rotterdam and The Hague in 10 years, will moot the issue for us all.
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative
magazine, and the author of books such as The Great Betrayal, A
Republic, Not an Empire, Neo-Conned, and Where the Right Went Wrong
.

User: "kathryn"
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	04 Jun 2006 05:07:25 AM

"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:1149374235.287568.190070@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/patbuchanan/2006/06/02/199598.html

You might actually get laid?
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	04 Jun 2006 06:08:40 AM

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:07:25 +0100, "kathryn" <nospam@here.com> wrote:
- Refer: <EuKdnV_pBNJ_LR_ZRVnyhQ@bt.com>

"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:1149374235.287568.190070@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/patbuchanan/2006/06/02/199598.html

You might actually get laid?

The only feasible way that SOT could get laid, is to extricate himself
out of Pat Robinson's backside, and then work his way up into a Hen's
ovipositor and wait.
--
Michael Gray.
Founding Member and Doorman,
Earthquack's 666 Club.
EAC Apprentice Thumbscrew Oiler.
.

User: "wbarwell"
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	04 Jun 2006 05:35:25 AM

kathryn wrote:

"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:1149374235.287568.190070@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/patbuchanan/2006/06/02/199598.html

You might actually get laid?

Only if he gets the drop on the family dog.

--
"Its the hit dog what yelps."
- Mark Twain
Cheerful Charlie
.

User: ""
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	05 Jun 2006 01:09:36 AM

wbarwell wrote:

kathryn wrote:

"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:1149374235.287568.190070@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/patbuchanan/2006/06/02/199598.html

You might actually get laid?

Only if he gets the drop on the family dog.

Watch for a bowlegged dog.
.

User: "AE"
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	05 Jun 2006 03:40:26 AM

Indeed the means of democracy can be abused and actually were abused by
dictators, but that's not what you were writing about in large parts of
the article.
The question you were raising was, what moral standards would be
guaranteed in a democracy without control by some religious instance.
Answer is simple: The standards majority do accept.
Modern democracies like the Netherlands you mentioned are based on the
idea that everybody should be allowed to do as he wishes as long as
this does not interfere with the rights of somebody else. We tend to
say "as long as nobody else gets harmed", but maybe that's not precise
enough, since a person might accept freely to get harmed.
Now what about the examples you mentioned?
Drugs: some drugs are considered to be too dangerous to be traded
freely - crack would be a good example. Other drugs like alcohole or
hashish are less dangerous and can be sold to people old enough to know
what they are doing.
Pornography or prostitution: It's a free decision to act in a porn
movie or to prostitute, so nobody's rights are harmed. As well it's a
free decision of the consumers.
Suicide: Why should a person not have the right to commit suicide as
long as this person is able to decide freely? And why not help this
person to do it in a way that doesn't cause unnecessary pain?
Age of consent: Different nations are setting different standards, but
the problem is not the question of age of consent itself, but how to
prevent a low age of consent to be abused against the interests of a
juvenile.
So none of the examples you gave are interfering with the actual rights
of other people.
This as well means you are quite well able to follow your personal
morality independent of how restrictive it is, in a liberal society.
You are not interested in protecting the rights of others, but you want
to force other people to live the way you want to, which is strictly
against the idea of democracy.
.

User: ""
Title: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society? It becomes a theocracy.	05 Jun 2006 09:23:45 AM

AE wrote:

...
Age of consent: Different nations are setting different standards, but
the problem is not the question of age of consent itself, but how to
prevent a low age of consent to be abused against the interests of a
juvenile.
...

The age of consent used to be set at the point where it
was thought the individual had to know what she or he was
doing. Since that time, adolescence has been infantilized.
At the same time, adults have become more liberal about
overt sexual behavior, and the resulting anxiety and
hysteria have been displaced upon "children", so that
even small children are sometimes highly sexualized
(see Jon-Benet Ramsay). In any case, all "children",
even large adolescents, and must be sequestered and
repressed at the same time. (Hence we have the total
absurdity of a law prohibiting two sixteen-year-olds
from doing sexual things with one another.) As usual,
whenever and wherever people feel a need for irrationality
they let religion carry the load, and we see religious
hucksters and crazies in the forefront of these
movements.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society? It becomes a theocracy.	07 Jun 2006 03:50:56 AM

wrote:

The age of consent used to be set at the point where it
was thought the individual had to know what she or he was
doing.

There are huge cultural differences in consent laws that you're
either ignoring or unaware of.
For example, here in the United States you might as well
define "age of consent" as "The minimum age that your
sexual partner must have achieved."
In other cultures though, it could just as easily be defined
as "The minimum age which you must be in order for you
to engage in sex."
.

User: ""
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society? It becomes a theocracy.	07 Jun 2006 01:42:31 PM

wrote:

anarcissie@gmail.com wrote:

The age of consent used to be set at the point where it
was thought the individual had to know what she or he was
doing.

There are huge cultural differences in consent laws that you're
either ignoring or unaware of.

For example, here in the United States you might as well
define "age of consent" as "The minimum age that your
sexual partner must have achieved."

In other cultures though, it could just as easily be defined
as "The minimum age which you must be in order for you
to engage in sex."

I was speaking about the age of consent in the United
States. Listing the variety of rules across the world
about the age or stage of life when one can or should
engage in sexual behaviors, and of what type, would
require me to write an encyclopedia.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society? It becomes a theocracy.	07 Jun 2006 02:04:47 PM

wrote:

jtem01@gmail.com wrote:

There are huge cultural differences in consent laws that you're
either ignoring or unaware of.

For example, here in the United States you might as well
define "age of consent" as "The minimum age that your
sexual partner must have achieved."

In other cultures though, it could just as easily be defined
as "The minimum age which you must be in order for you
to engage in sex."

Understood, but not only is usenet international, but the most
recent headlines on age of consent laws that I've seen
concerned a European nation.
I agree that here in the United States we are sufficiently
different from most other nations to exclude comparison.
Whether we are better or worse than they are is irrelevant.
The fact is we are different.
.

User: "Attila2"
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	03 Jun 2006 09:07:14 PM

On 3 Jun 2006 15:37:15 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> in alt.abortion with message-id
<1149374235.287568.190070@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
More off topic religious propagandizing.
.

User: "james g. keegan jr."
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	03 Jun 2006 09:26:24 PM

In article <t1g482hk4jequ52sqfqq1lm5c85806s547@4ax.com>,
Attila2 <prochoice@here.now> wrote:

you continue to demonstrate your ignorance of usenet newsgroups,
scumball, and your disrespect for readers' ability to decide for
themselves what is and is not appropriate.
do you feel like a hypocrite criticizing others for doing what you
do? even osprey has legitimately commented on your hypocrisy.
your hypocrisy aside, what you might want to do to make yourself feel
like an even bigger ***** is take a random sample of posts you've
whined about and then search google for the number of posts with this
topic, demonstrating that readers know what is of interest to them
far better than you do.
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	04 Jun 2006 03:09:16 AM

On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 22:26:24 -0400, "james g. keegan jr."
<jgkeegan@gmail.com> wrote:
- Refer: <jgkeegan-C5971F.22262403062006@individual.net>

In article <t1g482hk4jequ52sqfqq1lm5c85806s547@4ax.com>,
Attila2 <prochoice@here.now> wrote:

you continue to demonstrate your ignorance of usenet newsgroups,
scumball, and your disrespect for readers' ability to decide for
themselves what is and is not appropriate.

do you feel like a hypocrite criticizing others for doing what you
do? even osprey has legitimately commented on your hypocrisy.

your hypocrisy aside, what you might want to do to make yourself feel
like an even bigger ***** is take a random sample of posts you've
whined about and then search google for the number of posts with this
topic, demonstrating that readers know what is of interest to them
far better than you do.

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Christian Morality: Catholic Priest Convicted of Losing $271K	03 Jun 2006 08:30:48 PM

On 3 Jun 2006 15:37:15 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote:

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/patbuchanan/2006/06/02/199598.html

Brave new world

Ah Christian mroality. You can steal money and molest little kids and
still be "a priest in good standing".
But you can't be gay.
http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/14734489.htm
Former pastor pleads guilty to mismanaging $271,000 church fund
Associated Press
CINCINNATI - The retired pastor of the largest parish in the Roman
Catholic Archdiocese of Cincinnati has pleaded guilty to mismanaging
an account meant for helping the poor buy food, clothing and temporary
housing.
The archdiocese concluded after a 2004 internal audit that Rev. Thomas
Axe mishandled about $271,000 from the account at Good Shepherd parish
in the Cincinnati suburb of Montgomery, and used some of the money for
personal expenses.
Axe's plea came Friday. He faces a maximum jail term of one year when
he's sentenced later this month in Hamilton County Common Pleas Court.
Axe was not charged with theft, and archdiocese spokesman Dan
Andriacco said the investigation didn't find any evidence that Axe
deliberately acted in bad faith. The church and priest reached a
private agreement that calls for Axe to repay about $100,000 to the
fund he controlled from 1994 until his retirement at the end of 2003.
Axe, 72, remains a priest in good standing, Andriacco said. He
presides over Mass and does other work within the archdiocese.
"It is my hope and prayer that the fundamental trust within this
community has been restored," said a statement from the Rev. Robert
Schmitz, current pastor of Good Shepherd, which has more than 12,000
members.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2473 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Ahhhhhh, yessssssss, ummmmmmm - Alito, Alito, Alito"
-duke (duckgumbo@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 59
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge,who pussied
out of the Vietnam draft, showing his gay side
despite his avowed anti-gay bigotry
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
Father Gerard "Jerry" Martin
stpatrickbr<AT>bellsouth<DOT>net
Saint Patrick Catholic Church
12424 Brogdon Lane
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70816
.

User: ""
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	05 Jun 2006 01:03:05 AM

Sound of Trumpet wrote:

Brave new world

Jun 2, 2006

by Pat Buchanan

It's practically a cliche, but it's accurate:
Pat Buchanan's writings are always better in their original
German.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	05 Jun 2006 01:05:45 AM

Sound of Trumpet wrote:

Brave new world

Jun 2, 2006

by Pat Buchanan

It's practically a cliche, but it's accurate:
Pat Buchanan's writings are always better in their original
German.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	05 Jun 2006 01:05:46 AM

Sound of Trumpet wrote:

Brave new world

Jun 2, 2006

by Pat Buchanan

It's practically a cliche, but it's accurate:
Pat Buchanan's writings are always better in their original
German.
.

User: "Richard Smol"
Title: Re: What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved society?	04 Jun 2006 05:45:08 AM

Sound of Trumpet wrote:

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/patbuchanan/2006/06/02/199598.html
What if the free society chooses to become a decadent and depraved
society?

Then it becomes a theocracy.
RS
.