What the bible says about abortion

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Topic:	Science > Abortion
User:	"Bill Smith"
Date:	26 Nov 2005 12:16:43 PM
Object:	What the bible says about abortion

I have noticed that several people on this group have critized the
United States Supreme Court for ruling several times (Roe, Webster,
Casey) that a pregnant woman generally has the right to terminate her
pregnancy prior to viability on the grounds that the United States
Constitution does not specifically and expressly address the issue of
abortion.
Of the people who make the above criticism, I think it's safe to assume
that some of them believe abortion is immoral. Although one does not
necessarily follow from the other since Constitutional law has little
if anything to do with morality, I still think it's a safe assumption.
Of the people who make the above criticism AND believe abortion is
immoral, I think it is safe to assume that some people claim religous
grounds for their belief that abortion is immoral. Of the people who
claim said religous grounds, I think it is safe to assume that there
are some who reguard the Bible as the definitive moral code of their
faith.
The following query is addressed to those people, by which I mean
people who:
1. Are opposed to Roe, Webster, and Casey on the above stated grounds;
2. Believe, for religous reasons, that abortion is immoral; and,
3. Reguard the Bible as the definitive moral code of their faith.
My question is this: The bible does not, in so many words, address the
issue of the morality of abortion. There are some passages that could
be interpreted as a general condemnation of homicide, and there are
others that could, arguably, be interpreted as suggusting that a fetus
(or "unborn baby," if you prefer) is "alive" and/or ensouled at least
as of quickening. However, in order to read those passages as
forbidding abortion, doesn't one have to take from them a broad
principle, and then apply that principle to an issue the bible doesn't
directly address?
Put another way, doesn't the person who claims the bible forbids
abortion have to do the same thing with the bible that the Supreme
Court does when it interprets the Constitution?
I look forward to a lively discussion.
- Bill
.

User: "The other Donald"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 11:02:05 PM

"Bill Smith" <wsmith76@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:1133029003.189309.168410@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

I have noticed that several people on this group have critized the
United States Supreme Court for ruling several times (Roe, Webster,
Casey) that a pregnant woman generally has the right to terminate her
pregnancy prior to viability on the grounds that the United States
Constitution does not specifically and expressly address the issue of
abortion.

Of the people who make the above criticism, I think it's safe to assume
that some of them believe abortion is immoral. Although one does not
necessarily follow from the other since Constitutional law has little
if anything to do with morality, I still think it's a safe assumption.

Of the people who make the above criticism AND believe abortion is
immoral, I think it is safe to assume that some people claim religous
grounds for their belief that abortion is immoral. Of the people who
claim said religous grounds, I think it is safe to assume that there
are some who reguard the Bible as the definitive moral code of their
faith.

The following query is addressed to those people, by which I mean
people who:

1. Are opposed to Roe, Webster, and Casey on the above stated grounds;
2. Believe, for religous reasons, that abortion is immoral; and,
3. Reguard the Bible as the definitive moral code of their faith.

My question is this: The bible does not, in so many words, address the
issue of the morality of abortion. There are some passages that could
be interpreted as a general condemnation of homicide, and there are
others that could, arguably, be interpreted as suggusting that a fetus
(or "unborn baby," if you prefer) is "alive" and/or ensouled at least
as of quickening. However, in order to read those passages as
forbidding abortion, doesn't one have to take from them a broad
principle, and then apply that principle to an issue the bible doesn't
directly address?

Put another way, doesn't the person who claims the bible forbids
abortion have to do the same thing with the bible that the Supreme
Court does when it interprets the Constitution?

With regard to your statements pertaining to the Bible and
abortion....actually it *is* discussed, and one can only conclude that the
people claiming God(tm) wants to protect the fetus are generally full of
*****:
~God(tm) the Divine Abortionist:
2 Kg.15:16 "Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the
coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he
smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up."
Hosea 9:16 "Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved
fruit of their womb."
Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against
her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in
pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
~God(tm) doesn't consider the fetus a person, not even for taxes or census:
Leviticus 27:6 "And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then
thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the
female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver."
[No value is placed upon babies (or fetuses) less than one month old.]
Numbers 3:15-16 "Number the children of Levi after the house of their
fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt
thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the
LORD."
[Babies (or fetuses) less than one month old are not counted as persons by
God.]
~No divine penalty for killing a fetus:
Exodus 21:22-23 "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her
fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely
punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall
pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt
give life for life."
--
The arguments presented by the "pro-lifers" of this NG, if you would be so
generous to call them "arguments" in the first place, generally have little
merit or honesty. They pontificate about what their god says, yet obviously
haven't a clue.
This doesn't even address the existence of any diety, let alone their
specific version of one.
Don't believe for a moment that you will have any effect on them, no matter
how fast you rapid fire facts or evidence at them.
--
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
Apatriot #22
Atheist FF/EMT
.....and ordained minister
Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn
-Mr. Worf, set phasers on "***** You" and fire at will. -Doc Smartass
.

User: "osprey"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 12:28:29 PM

"Bill Smith" <wsmith76@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:1133029003.189309.168410@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

I have noticed that several people on this group have critized the
United States Supreme Court for ruling several times (Roe, Webster,
Casey) that a pregnant woman generally has the right to terminate her
pregnancy prior to viability on the grounds that the United States
Constitution does not specifically and expressly address the issue of
abortion.

Of the people who make the above criticism, I think it's safe to assume
that some of them believe abortion is immoral. Although one does not
necessarily follow from the other since Constitutional law has little
if anything to do with morality, I still think it's a safe assumption.

Of the people who make the above criticism AND believe abortion is
immoral, I think it is safe to assume that some people claim religous
grounds for their belief that abortion is immoral. Of the people who
claim said religous grounds, I think it is safe to assume that there
are some who reguard the Bible as the definitive moral code of their
faith.

The following query is addressed to those people, by which I mean
people who:

1. Are opposed to Roe, Webster, and Casey on the above stated grounds;
2. Believe, for religous reasons, that abortion is immoral; and,
3. Reguard the Bible as the definitive moral code of their faith.

My question is this: The bible does not, in so many words, address the
issue of the morality of abortion. There are some passages that could
be interpreted as a general condemnation of homicide, and there are
others that could, arguably, be interpreted as suggusting that a fetus
(or "unborn baby," if you prefer) is "alive" and/or ensouled at least
as of quickening. However, in order to read those passages as
forbidding abortion, doesn't one have to take from them a broad
principle, and then apply that principle to an issue the bible doesn't
directly address?

Put another way, doesn't the person who claims the bible forbids
abortion have to do the same thing with the bible that the Supreme
Court does when it interprets the Constitution?

I look forward to a lively discussion.

Is it your opinion that the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to
have an abortion?

- Bill

User: "David W. Barnes"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 01:39:56 PM

In article <K5mdnbp9M-q-NBXenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com>, osprey
<noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

Put another way, doesn't the person who claims the bible forbids
abortion have to do the same thing with the bible that the Supreme
Court does when it interprets the Constitution?

I look forward to a lively discussion.

Is it your opinion that the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to
have an abortion?

It clearly does. Go away you half wit.
.

User: "Mimi Cohen"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 02:11:17 PM

osprey lied:

Is
"One last note: I am very surprised at your reaction especially after
just a few short months ago I provided a copy of my DD214 Right in
box 18...1st line it says... SERVED 2 AUG 90 TO 1 OCT 94 IN SUPPORT
OF OPERATION DESERT SHIELD/STORM and in box 13 NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE
MEDAL Funny how you have selective memory, why? Yes, I served in combat
during Desert Storm."

http://groups.google.com/group/talk.abortion/msg/38f5de5691243868?dmode=source&hl=en

"Fine, if you want to play on words...no I was not in actual "combat" "

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/db12fe6b6ec66a35?dmode=source&hl=en

User: "Bill Smith"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 05:48:40 PM

osprey wrote:

Is it your opinion that the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to
have an abortion?

Yes.
Care to take a crack at the question I asked (if you happen to be a
member of the group I addressed it to)?
- Bill
.

User: "osprey"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 06:06:09 PM

"Bill Smith" <wsmith76@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:1133048919.981727.136830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

osprey wrote:

Is it your opinion that the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to
have an abortion?

Yes.

Care to take a crack at the question I asked (if you happen to be a
member of the group I addressed it to)?

I am my own individual, not a member of any group. I hold my own opinions.
Now, answer this please.
If the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to have an abortion, why
is it that in almost every state they have restrictions on abortion? Why
doesn't a woman have a right to choose to have an abortion in say the sixth
month?
Does the Constitution change as her pregnancy gets further along?

- Bill

User: "David W. Barnes"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 06:32:17 PM

In article <TsSdnRmOjKa8ZRXeRVn-gA@comcast.com>, osprey
<noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

"Bill Smith" <wsmith76@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:1133048919.981727.136830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

osprey wrote:

Is it your opinion that the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to
have an abortion?

Yes.

Care to take a crack at the question I asked (if you happen to be a
member of the group I addressed it to)?

I am my own individual, not a member of any group. I hold my own opinions.

He is a member of the "to chicken ***** to answer" group.

Now, answer this please.

If the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to have an abortion, why
is it that in almost every state they have restrictions on abortion?

They are unenforceable, you MORON!

Why
doesn't a woman have a right to choose to have an abortion in say the sixth
month?

She does.

Does the Constitution change as her pregnancy gets further along?

NO!
Now shut the ***** up. This "theory" of yours has long since been
discredited.
.

User: "Ray Fischer"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 10:21:28 PM

osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

"Bill Smith" <wsmith76@sprynet.com> wrote in message

osprey wrote:

Is it your opinion that the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to
have an abortion?

Yes.

Care to take a crack at the question I asked (if you happen to be a
member of the group I addressed it to)?

I am my own individual, not a member of any group. I hold my own opinions.

Now, answer this please.

Notice that even though ***** heishman whines that other people
won't discuss the issues, ***** heishman refuses to discuss
anything.
He's just a sleazy little coward.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.

User: "Ray Fischer"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 10:30:03 PM

osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

"Bill Smith" <wsmith76@sprynet.com> wrote in message

osprey wrote:

Is it your opinion that the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to
have an abortion?

Yes.

Care to take a crack at the question I asked (if you happen to be a
member of the group I addressed it to)?

I am my own individual, not a member of any group. I hold my own opinions.

And they come right from the GOP.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.

User: "Mimi Cohen"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 06:23:53 PM

osprey lied:

"One last note: I am very surprised at your reaction especially after
just a few short months ago I provided a copy of my DD214 Right in
box 18...1st line it says... SERVED 2 AUG 90 TO 1 OCT 94 IN SUPPORT
OF OPERATION DESERT SHIELD/STORM and in box 13 NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE
MEDAL Funny how you have selective memory, why? Yes, I served in combat
during Desert Storm."
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.abortion/msg/38f5de5691243868?dmode=source&hl=en
"Fine, if you want to play on words...no I was not in actual "combat" "
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/db12fe6b6ec66a35?dmode=source&hl=en
.

User: "Bill Smith"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 06:18:23 PM

osprey wrote:

"Bill Smith" <wsmith76@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:1133048919.981727.136830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

osprey wrote:

Is it your opinion that the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to
have an abortion?

Yes.

Care to take a crack at the question I asked (if you happen to be a
member of the group I addressed it to)?

I am my own individual, not a member of any group. I hold my own opinions.

I'm sure you hold your own opinions, and I was not trying to impute
anybody else's opinions to you. The "group" I was refering to refers
to the people who:
1. Are opposed to Roe, Webster, and Casey on the grounds that the U.S.
Constitution does not specifically and expressly address abortion;
2. Believe, for religous reasons, that abortion is immoral; and,
3. Reguard the Bible as the definitive moral code of their faith.
There are people out there who hold the above beliefs, and all of them,
no doubt, hold their own opionions. You either hold the above opinions
or you don't. If you hold the above opinions, then you either wish to
respond to my query or you don't. I'm just wondering which.

Now, answer this please.

If the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to have an abortion, why
is it that in almost every state they have restrictions on abortion?

Because the constitutional right is not unlimited, any more than any
other legal right. Roe, by its own terms, limited the right based on a
tri-mester framework, which has been both clarified and modified based
on subsequent decisions.

Why
doesn't a woman have a right to choose to have an abortion in say the sixth
month?

See above.

Does the Constitution change as her pregnancy gets further along?

No. What changes is the factual situation, not the Constitution. When
the same rule is applied to a different factual situation, the result
will be different.
- Bill
.

User: "osprey"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 06:33:49 PM

"Bill Smith" <wsmith76@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:1133050703.523792.11710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

osprey wrote:

"Bill Smith" <wsmith76@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:1133048919.981727.136830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

osprey wrote:

Is it your opinion that the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right
to
have an abortion?

Yes.

Care to take a crack at the question I asked (if you happen to be a
member of the group I addressed it to)?

I am my own individual, not a member of any group. I hold my own
opinions.

I'm sure you hold your own opinions, and I was not trying to impute
anybody else's opinions to you. The "group" I was refering to refers
to the people who:

1. Are opposed to Roe, Webster, and Casey on the grounds that the U.S.
Constitution does not specifically and expressly address abortion;
2. Believe, for religous reasons, that abortion is immoral; and,
3. Reguard the Bible as the definitive moral code of their faith.

There are people out there who hold the above beliefs, and all of them,
no doubt, hold their own opionions. You either hold the above opinions
or you don't. If you hold the above opinions, then you either wish to
respond to my query or you don't. I'm just wondering which.

My position on abortion is this.
Abortion, I think in itself is wrong. I think it's the killing of a human
being; however, I recognize that the procedure is legal and I personally
don't think it would be a benefit to have Roe v. Wade overturned. Why?
Because if women are going to abort, regardless of whether I or anyone else
thinks that the choice is wrong, it would be better to see them have it done
safely than in the hands of someone who could harm them.
So basically what I am saying is, while I support the right to make the
choice, I don't support "the choice".
I think that the restrictions placed on abortion are fair. I believe that
once the fetus has become viable, the fetus deserves the right to live.
While I don't go around protesting and holding up signs, and I certainly
would never support someone making the choice to commit a violent act
against an abortion clinic, I still will voice my opinion on the issue.
I would never try to block a woman from going to have an abortion nor would
I ever endorse her being forced into continuing the pregnancy.

Now, answer this please.

If the U.S. Constitution protects a woman's right to have an abortion,
why
is it that in almost every state they have restrictions on abortion?

Why
doesn't a woman have a right to choose to have an abortion in say the
sixth
month?

See above.

Does the Constitution change as her pregnancy gets further along?

No. What changes is the factual situation, not the Constitution. When
the same rule is applied to a different factual situation, the result
will be different.

Respectfully I do not agree. I do not think that the U.S. Constitution
protects a woman's right to have an abortion. What I do think is that the
USSC has left the decision completely up to the states. The states decide.

- Bill

User: "Paul Anderson"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 07:53:38 PM

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:33:49 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
.....

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever. You think
abortion is homicide and yet have no problem with it being legal. Any
other homicides you think should be legalized?
.

User: "The other Donald"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 10:04:14 AM

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438910c6.769962031@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:33:49 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
....

My position on abortion is this.

Abortion, I think in itself is wrong. I think it's the killing of a

human

being; however, I recognize that the procedure is legal and I personally
don't think it would be a benefit to have Roe v. Wade overturned. Why?
Because if women are going to abort, regardless of whether I or anyone

else

thinks that the choice is wrong, it would be better to see them have it

done

safely than in the hands of someone who could harm them.

So basically what I am saying is, while I support the right to make the
choice, I don't support "the choice"....

For once, Heishman, I somewhat agree with you.
No, I don't believe abortion equates to murder, but you're welcome to hold
that opinion as long as you don't try to force it onto others through law.
If forced a "yes or no*" answer, I would answer that I personally don't care
for abortion. That does not preclude me from supporting a woman to make such
a life altering decision for herself, without interferrence.
I'll give credit where credit is due, and it would appear that you at least
gave this particular point some thought.
(*Life is rarely, if ever, made up of "yes-or-no" answers, with the
exception of programming language. I am only making the statement for the
sake of argument.)
For Paul:

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever.

Leave "morals" to the people that can use their various brands of religion
to justify whatever atrocity they commit. I would consider Heishman's
position 'ethical.'

You think
abortion is homicide and yet have no problem with it being legal.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Whether or not they try to force that
opinion onto others is the real question. There are many people with
"opinions" more fucked up than Heishman's, but they have the right get to
hold and express those opinions, just like you and I have the right to mock
them.
He can consider it murder, and we'll never be able to change it. All I
expect is that they leave the decisions (at this level of 'personal') to the
people that must live with the consequences.
It pains me to say it, but I have to support Robert on this one.
--
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
Apatriot #22
Atheist FF/EMT
.....and ordained minister
Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn
-Mr. Worf, set phasers on "***** You" and fire at will. -Doc Smartass
.

User: "osprey"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 10:47:15 AM

"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yahooooY.com> wrote in message
news:2aFjf.26321$%i.26281@tornado.texas.rr.com...

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438910c6.769962031@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:33:49 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
....

My position on abortion is this.

Abortion, I think in itself is wrong. I think it's the killing of a

human

else

thinks that the choice is wrong, it would be better to see them have it

done

safely than in the hands of someone who could harm them.

So basically what I am saying is, while I support the right to make the
choice, I don't support "the choice"....

For once, Heishman, I somewhat agree with you.

No, I don't believe abortion equates to murder, but you're welcome to hold
that opinion as long as you don't try to force it onto others through law.

I don't believe abortion equates to murder either, and I have NEVER said
that it does.
It is, in my opinion, an UNJUSTIFIED homicide.

If forced a "yes or no*" answer, I would answer that I personally don't
care
for abortion. That does not preclude me from supporting a woman to make
such
a life altering decision for herself, without interferrence.

I'll give credit where credit is due, and it would appear that you at
least
gave this particular point some thought.

(*Life is rarely, if ever, made up of "yes-or-no" answers, with the
exception of programming language. I am only making the statement for the
sake of argument.)

For Paul:

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever.

Leave "morals" to the people that can use their various brands of religion
to justify whatever atrocity they commit. I would consider Heishman's
position 'ethical.'

You think
abortion is homicide and yet have no problem with it being legal.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Whether or not they try to force
that
opinion onto others is the real question. There are many people with
"opinions" more fucked up than Heishman's, but they have the right get to
hold and express those opinions, just like you and I have the right to
mock
them.

He can consider it murder, and we'll never be able to change it. All I
expect is that they leave the decisions (at this level of 'personal') to
the
people that must live with the consequences.

It pains me to say it, but I have to support Robert on this one.

--
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
Apatriot #22
Atheist FF/EMT
....and ordained minister
Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn

-Mr. Worf, set phasers on "***** You" and fire at will. -Doc Smartass

User: "David W. Barnes"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 09:26:23 PM

In article <lN2dnTGWJ9BvtRLeRVn-vg@comcast.com>, osprey
<noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yahooooY.com> wrote in message
news:2aFjf.26321$%i.26281@tornado.texas.rr.com...

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438910c6.769962031@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:33:49 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
....

My position on abortion is this.

Abortion, I think in itself is wrong. I think it's the killing of a

human

else

thinks that the choice is wrong, it would be better to see them have it

done

safely than in the hands of someone who could harm them.

So basically what I am saying is, while I support the right to make the
choice, I don't support "the choice"....

For once, Heishman, I somewhat agree with you.

No, I don't believe abortion equates to murder, but you're welcome to hold
that opinion as long as you don't try to force it onto others through law.

I don't believe abortion equates to murder either, and I have NEVER said
that it does.
It is, in my opinion, an UNJUSTIFIED homicide.

Osprey figures since he has unwanted children, everyone should.
.

User: "Paul Anderson"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 12:49:49 PM

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:47:15 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:

"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yahooooY.com> wrote

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
....

But you support this homicide being legal. Why? Because the woman is
going to commit the homicide anyway and you would rather she commit
the homicide as safely, to herself, as possible.
Sort of like supporting homicide by sniper rifle to remove the killer
from risk of danger.
You have a class of human beings that you feel it is acceptable to be
legal to kill, why, because you want to protect the killers. You keep
dodging as to whether or not there are any other classes of human
beings you would like to see it legal to kill.

I don't believe abortion equates to murder either, and I have NEVER said
that it does.
It is, in my opinion, an UNJUSTIFIED homicide.

Homicides can be murder or manslaughter. They can be justified or
excused. You now state that abortion is an unjustified homicide. Is
it excusable? Do you even know what the legal grounds are for a
homicide being justifible or excusable?
Are there any other UNJUSTIFIED homicides you feel should be legal?
....

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever.

Leave "morals" to the people that can use their various brands of religion
to justify whatever atrocity they commit.

Moral has little to do with religion. AFAICT, religion is used to
excuse or justify immoral behaviour.

I would consider Heishman's position 'ethical.'

Sorry, I do not find it ethichal to accept a class of homicide as
legal simply because the killer will be killing anyhow and you wish
the killer to avoid harm. Note. He states that the killing is (all
caps) unjustified.

It pains me to say it, but I have to support Robert on this one.

You support unjustified homicide being legal? Simply because the
killer will be doing it anyhow and you do not wish the killer to be
harmed?
.

User: "The other Donald"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 02:05:04 PM

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438f3c2d.1174289406@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:47:15 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:

"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yahooooY.com> wrote

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
....

My position on abortion is this.

Abortion, I think in itself is wrong. I think it's the killing of a

human

being; however, I recognize that the procedure is legal and I

personally

don't think it would be a benefit to have Roe v. Wade overturned.

Why?

Because if women are going to abort, regardless of whether I or

anyone else

thinks that the choice is wrong, it would be better to see them have

it done

safely than in the hands of someone who could harm them.

So basically what I am saying is, while I support the right to make

the

choice, I don't support "the choice"....

But you support this homicide being legal. Why? Because the woman is
going to commit the homicide anyway and you would rather she commit
the homicide as safely, to herself, as possible.

Sort of like supporting homicide by sniper rifle to remove the killer
from risk of danger.

You have a class of human beings that you feel it is acceptable to be
legal to kill, why, because you want to protect the killers. You keep
dodging as to whether or not there are any other classes of human
beings you would like to see it legal to kill.

I don't believe abortion equates to murder either, and I have NEVER said
that it does.
It is, in my opinion, an UNJUSTIFIED homicide.

Homicides can be murder or manslaughter. They can be justified or
excused. You now state that abortion is an unjustified homicide. Is
it excusable? Do you even know what the legal grounds are for a
homicide being justifible or excusable?

Are there any other UNJUSTIFIED homicides you feel should be legal?
...

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever.

Leave "morals" to the people that can use their various brands of

religion

to justify whatever atrocity they commit.

Moral has little to do with religion. AFAICT, religion is used to
excuse or justify immoral behaviour.

Fair enough, based on the definition of "moral." M-W.com treats 'moral' and
'ethical' as interchangeable.
I've generally separated "moral" from "ethical" based on the grounds each is
used: it's 'moral' (religiously based) to execute people, but it's 'ethical'
to kill someone only if that is the last resort to protect the lives of
others. And, no, this is not a vague reference to abortion or the murder of
doctors that perform them.

I would consider Heishman's position 'ethical.'

Whoa! Easy killer.....
I'm just saying that he can hold whatever view of abortion he'd like. What I
find ethical is that he understands the limitations of his opinion (that it
only applies to himself) and that he supports the idea of keeping abortion
safe and legal, at least from what I gathered in the part of his post that I
can access.
He is drawings a distinct line between his personal views and the realities
of the real world (as redundant as that may sound).

It pains me to say it, but I have to support Robert on this one.

You support unjustified homicide being legal?

Don't start that ***** with me. I support the fact that he separates what is
his opinion from what he supports as a public policy. He personally takes
issue with abortion, but does not interfere with it as a legal and safe
procedure. As a "pro-choicer," that's all I would ask for. I don't expect
others to share my personal feelings on things, nor do I necessarily share
theirs, especially not something as controversial as abortion.
Analogous: I personally feel that bigots should be banished from my planet,
without hesitation. *BUT* when I run a medical call, I treat my patients
equally, even if they are avowed white-supremacists, and disregard my
personal feelings in order to do what is ethical: serve my community and
provide emergency medical care to a person in need.
And, "No," it has nothing to do with some mystical 'oath' I may have taken.

Simply because the
killer will be doing it anyhow and you do not wish the killer to be
harmed?

I will leave this unanswered, since it does not apply to me, nor do I feel
it really applies to Heishman in this case. There is no love lost between me
and Heishman. In fact, I ran out of patience and ways to criticize him long
ago, and he is killfiled.
But I don't have to like someone to admit that they are right, or that they
may have a valid point.
--
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
Apatriot #22
Atheist FF/EMT
.....and ordained minister
Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn
-Mr. Worf, set phasers on "***** You" and fire at will. -Doc Smartass
.

User: "BOB"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 02:31:20 PM

"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yahooooY.com> wrote in
news:QHIjf.20543$Au1.15372@tornado.texas.rr.com:

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438f3c2d.1174289406@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:47:15 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:

"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yahooooY.com> wrote

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
....

My position on abortion is this.

Abortion, I think in itself is wrong. I think it's the killing
of a

human

being; however, I recognize that the procedure is legal and I

personally

don't think it would be a benefit to have Roe v. Wade
overturned.

Why?

Because if women are going to abort, regardless of whether I or

anyone else

thinks that the choice is wrong, it would be better to see them
have

it done

safely than in the hands of someone who could harm them.

So basically what I am saying is, while I support the right to
make

the

choice, I don't support "the choice"....

But you support this homicide being legal. Why? Because the woman
is going to commit the homicide anyway and you would rather she
commit the homicide as safely, to herself, as possible.

Sort of like supporting homicide by sniper rifle to remove the killer
from risk of danger.

You have a class of human beings that you feel it is acceptable to be
legal to kill, why, because you want to protect the killers. You
keep dodging as to whether or not there are any other classes of
human beings you would like to see it legal to kill.

I don't believe abortion equates to murder either, and I have NEVER
said that it does.
It is, in my opinion, an UNJUSTIFIED homicide.

Homicides can be murder or manslaughter. They can be justified or
excused. You now state that abortion is an unjustified homicide. Is
it excusable? Do you even know what the legal grounds are for a
homicide being justifible or excusable?

Are there any other UNJUSTIFIED homicides you feel should be legal?
...

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever.

Leave "morals" to the people that can use their various brands of

religion

to justify whatever atrocity they commit.

Moral has little to do with religion. AFAICT, religion is used to
excuse or justify immoral behaviour.

Fair enough, based on the definition of "moral." M-W.com treats
'moral' and 'ethical' as interchangeable.

I've generally separated "moral" from "ethical" based on the grounds
each is used: it's 'moral' (religiously based) to execute people, but
it's 'ethical' to kill someone only if that is the last resort to
protect the lives of others. And, no, this is not a vague reference to
abortion or the murder of doctors that perform them.

I would consider Heishman's position 'ethical.'

Whoa! Easy killer.....

I'm just saying that he can hold whatever view of abortion he'd like.
What I find ethical is that he understands the limitations of his
opinion (that it only applies to himself) and that he supports the
idea of keeping abortion safe and legal, at least from what I gathered
in the part of his post that I can access.

He is drawings a distinct line between his personal views and the
realities of the real world (as redundant as that may sound).

It pains me to say it, but I have to support Robert on this one.

You support unjustified homicide being legal?

Don't start that ***** with me. I support the fact that he separates
what is his opinion from what he supports as a public policy. He
personally takes issue with abortion, but does not interfere with it
as a legal and safe procedure. As a "pro-choicer," that's all I would
ask for. I don't expect others to share my personal feelings on
things, nor do I necessarily share theirs, especially not something as
controversial as abortion.

Analogous: I personally feel that bigots should be banished from my
planet, without hesitation. *BUT* when I run a medical call, I treat
my patients equally, even if they are avowed white-supremacists, and
disregard my personal feelings in order to do what is ethical: serve
my community and provide emergency medical care to a person in need.

And, "No," it has nothing to do with some mystical 'oath' I may have
taken.

Simply because the
killer will be doing it anyhow and you do not wish the killer to be
harmed?

Sounds fair and reasonable to me, Donald. Unfortunately, I am not as
forgiving, objective and open-minded as you are regarding some of these
issues and I am now too old to change my ways.
.

User: "osprey"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 02:13:27 PM

"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yahooooY.com> wrote in message
news:QHIjf.20543$Au1.15372@tornado.texas.rr.com...

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438f3c2d.1174289406@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:47:15 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:

"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yahooooY.com> wrote

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote

"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
....

My position on abortion is this.

Abortion, I think in itself is wrong. I think it's the killing of a

human

being; however, I recognize that the procedure is legal and I

personally

don't think it would be a benefit to have Roe v. Wade overturned.

Why?

Because if women are going to abort, regardless of whether I or

anyone else

thinks that the choice is wrong, it would be better to see them have

it done

safely than in the hands of someone who could harm them.

So basically what I am saying is, while I support the right to make

the

choice, I don't support "the choice"....

But you support this homicide being legal. Why? Because the woman is
going to commit the homicide anyway and you would rather she commit
the homicide as safely, to herself, as possible.

Sort of like supporting homicide by sniper rifle to remove the killer
from risk of danger.

You have a class of human beings that you feel it is acceptable to be
legal to kill, why, because you want to protect the killers. You keep
dodging as to whether or not there are any other classes of human
beings you would like to see it legal to kill.

I don't believe abortion equates to murder either, and I have NEVER said
that it does.
It is, in my opinion, an UNJUSTIFIED homicide.

Homicides can be murder or manslaughter. They can be justified or
excused. You now state that abortion is an unjustified homicide. Is
it excusable? Do you even know what the legal grounds are for a
homicide being justifible or excusable?

Are there any other UNJUSTIFIED homicides you feel should be legal?
...

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever.

Leave "morals" to the people that can use their various brands of

religion

to justify whatever atrocity they commit.

Moral has little to do with religion. AFAICT, religion is used to
excuse or justify immoral behaviour.

Fair enough, based on the definition of "moral." M-W.com treats 'moral'
and
'ethical' as interchangeable.

I've generally separated "moral" from "ethical" based on the grounds each
is
used: it's 'moral' (religiously based) to execute people, but it's
'ethical'
to kill someone only if that is the last resort to protect the lives of
others. And, no, this is not a vague reference to abortion or the murder
of
doctors that perform them.

I would consider Heishman's position 'ethical.'

Whoa! Easy killer.....

I'm just saying that he can hold whatever view of abortion he'd like. What
I
find ethical is that he understands the limitations of his opinion (that
it
only applies to himself) and that he supports the idea of keeping abortion
safe and legal, at least from what I gathered in the part of his post that
I
can access.

That is correct.

He is drawings a distinct line between his personal views and the
realities
of the real world (as redundant as that may sound).

It pains me to say it, but I have to support Robert on this one.

You support unjustified homicide being legal?

Don't start that ***** with me. I support the fact that he separates what
is
his opinion from what he supports as a public policy. He personally takes
issue with abortion, but does not interfere with it as a legal and safe
procedure. As a "pro-choicer," that's all I would ask for. I don't expect
others to share my personal feelings on things, nor do I necessarily share
theirs, especially not something as controversial as abortion.

Analogous: I personally feel that bigots should be banished from my
planet,
without hesitation. *BUT* when I run a medical call, I treat my patients
equally, even if they are avowed white-supremacists, and disregard my
personal feelings in order to do what is ethical: serve my community and
provide emergency medical care to a person in need.

And, "No," it has nothing to do with some mystical 'oath' I may have
taken.

Simply because the
killer will be doing it anyhow and you do not wish the killer to be
harmed?

And with that last note, let me say that I agree with Donald...you don't
have like someone to admit they are right.
It takes some character to be able to look past ones own personal feelings
and bias in order to admit that.
In exchange to what Donald is saying let me say that he is right..there is
no love lost between him and I.
However, in his exchanges with Paul he seems to have a firm grasp and
understanding of what I am saying.

--
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
Apatriot #22
Atheist FF/EMT
....and ordained minister
Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn

-Mr. Worf, set phasers on "***** You" and fire at will. -Doc Smartass

User: "Paul Anderson"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 10:09:26 PM

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:13:27 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
....

However, in his exchanges with Paul he seems to have a firm grasp and
understanding of what I am saying.

Sorry, but I do not understand what you are saying. You claim that
abortion kills a human being. Millions killed every year.
Unjustified killing according to you.
You support this slaughter of human life remaining legal. Is this
because you do not care about the killing of millions of human beings?
Or is it that you do not really believe that what is killed in an
abortion is a human being?
If a law were passed saying that it was legal to kill anyone over the
age of 55, would you support that law? How can you support a law that
makes it legal to kill human beings, as you said, unjustified.
.

User: "Mimi Cohen"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 05:49:14 PM

osprey lied:

"The
"One last note: I am very surprised at your reaction especially after
just a few short months ago I provided a copy of my DD214 Right in
box 18...1st line it says... SERVED 2 AUG 90 TO 1 OCT 94 IN SUPPORT
OF OPERATION DESERT SHIELD/STORM and in box 13 NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE
MEDAL Funny how you have selective memory, why? Yes, I served in combat
during Desert Storm."

http://groups.google.com/group/talk.abortion/msg/38f5de5691243868?dmode=source&hl=en

"Fine, if you want to play on words...no I was not in actual "combat" "

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/db12fe6b6ec66a35?dmode=source&hl=en

User: "Mimi Cohen"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 02:03:20 PM

osprey lied:

User: "Gaia"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	01 Dec 2005 11:09:35 AM

osprey wrote:

"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yahooooY.com> wrote in message
news:2aFjf.26321$%i.26281@tornado.texas.rr.com...

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438910c6.769962031@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:33:49 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
....

My position on abortion is this.

Abortion, I think in itself is wrong. I think it's the killing of a

human

else

thinks that the choice is wrong, it would be better to see them have it

done

safely than in the hands of someone who could harm them.

So basically what I am saying is, while I support the right to make the
choice, I don't support "the choice"....

For once, Heishman, I somewhat agree with you.

No, I don't believe abortion equates to murder, but you're welcome to hold
that opinion as long as you don't try to force it onto others through law.

I don't believe abortion equates to murder either, and I have NEVER said
that it does.
It is, in my opinion, an UNJUSTIFIED homicide.

Your wife had an abortion.
.

User: "osprey"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 08:15:43 PM

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438910c6.769962031@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:33:49 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
....

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever. You think
abortion is homicide and yet have no problem with it being legal. Any
other homicides you think should be legalized?

All murders are homicides
Are all homicides murder?
So I suppose you are going to tell me how I should feel, right? Because I
support abortion remaining legal, you are going to make some kind of an
issue out of it. Why? Because it doesn't fit your stereotype? Doesn't fit
inside your little world on how things are supposed to be?
Just because I support something being legal, doesn't mean that I have to
support people making the choice.
.

User: "David W. Barnes"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 08:24:01 PM

In article <FYidnRl0ZrvwixTeRVn-rw@comcast.com>, osprey
<noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438910c6.769962031@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:33:49 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
....

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever. You think
abortion is homicide and yet have no problem with it being legal. Any
other homicides you think should be legalized?

All murders are homicides
Are all homicides murder?

Osprey needs to take a course on logic.

So I suppose you are going to tell me how I should feel, right? Because I
support abortion remaining legal, you are going to make some kind of an
issue out of it. Why? Because it doesn't fit your stereotype? Doesn't fit
inside your little world on how things are supposed to be?

Just because I support something being legal, doesn't mean that I have to
support people making the choice.

Idiot.
.

User: "Paul Anderson"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 09:20:26 PM

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:15:43 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438910c6.769962031@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:33:49 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
....

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever. You think
abortion is homicide and yet have no problem with it being legal. Any
other homicides you think should be legalized?

All murders are homicides
Are all homicides murder?

Who said anything about murder? You stated that abortion is the
killing of a human being, which you have no problem with since it is
legal and you think it should remain legal so that the persons hiring
the hit men might otherwise be harmed. Is there any other class of
human being that you think shoudl be legal?

Not making an issue, just verifying that you think that a class of
homicide is acceptable simply because it is legal. Also curious as to
any other classes of human beings you would support the homicides
thereof being made legal.

Just because I support something being legal, doesn't mean that I have to
support people making the choice.

I cannot comprehend the mentality of someone who blithely accepts the
killing of a million human beings every year. In the U.S.. Several
times that worldwide.
.

User: "osprey"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 10:08:13 PM

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:4389234d.774705078@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:15:43 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438910c6.769962031@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:33:49 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
....

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever. You think
abortion is homicide and yet have no problem with it being legal. Any
other homicides you think should be legalized?

All murders are homicides
Are all homicides murder?

Who said anything about murder?

I asked you a question...are all homicides murder?
You stated that abortion is the

killing of a human being,

Yes, that is my opinion
which you have no problem with since it is

legal and you think it should remain legal so that the persons hiring
the hit men might otherwise be harmed. Is there any other class of
human being that you think shoudl be legal?

Self Defense and Corporal Punishment (even though that issue I can
understand both sides of the argument)

So I suppose you are going to tell me how I should feel, right? Because I
support abortion remaining legal, you are going to make some kind of an
issue out of it. Why? Because it doesn't fit your stereotype? Doesn't
fit
inside your little world on how things are supposed to be?

As I said, self defense, corporal punishment, and military action when
justified.

Just because I support something being legal, doesn't mean that I have to
support people making the choice.

I cannot comprehend the mentality of someone who blithely accepts the
killing of a million human beings every year. In the U.S.. Several
times that worldwide.

I don't accept it; however, would you rather see a woman have an illegal
abortion performed and herself die as well?
.

User: "David W. Barnes"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	26 Nov 2005 10:59:03 PM

In article <Qrmdnf9CrJKdrBTeRVn-qw@comcast.com>, osprey
<noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:4389234d.774705078@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:15:43 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:438910c6.769962031@news.la.sbcglobal.net...

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:33:49 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
....

That has got to be one of the most immoral stands ever. You think
abortion is homicide and yet have no problem with it being legal. Any
other homicides you think should be legalized?

All murders are homicides
Are all homicides murder?

Who said anything about murder?

I asked you a question...are all homicides murder?

And Osprey "claims" to be a law enforcement officer. No, Osprey, all
homicides are not murder. I'm shocked you didn't know that, even WITH
your poor legal knowledge.
.

User: "Paul Anderson"
Title: Re: What the bible says about abortion	27 Nov 2005 10:23:48 AM

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 23:08:13 -0500, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:

"Paul Anderson" <elcoyote@netzero.net> wrote.....

Who said anything about murder?

I asked you a question...are all homicides murder?

You keep trying to drag discussions away from what you post.
I have no need to wander off the thread.

You stated that abortion is the

killing of a human being,

Yes, that is my opinion

which you have no problem with since it is

legal and you think it should remain legal so that the persons hiring
the hit men might otherwise be harmed. Is there any other class of
human being that you think shoudl be legal?

Self Defense and Corporal Punishment (even though that issue I can
understand both sides of the argument)....

"self defense" and "corporal punishment" are not a class of human
being. Would you like to try again?
....

I cannot comprehend the mentality of someone who blithely accepts the
killing of a million human beings every year. In the U.S.. Several
times that worldwide.

I don't accept it; however, would you rather see a woman have an illegal
abortion performed and herself die as well?

I am not the one who believes that abortion is the killing of a human
being. You are. And you do accept it -- you stated that abortion
should remain legal. Thus you feel that the killing millions of human
beings is acceptable and should remain legal. With such a casual
disregard for human life I was curious as to what other classes of
human beings you would like to see the killing of made legal.
.

Page 1 of 4

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