Science > Abortion > What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA
| Topic: |
Science > Abortion |
| User: |
"Deuteros" |
| Date: |
04 Mar 2007 08:40:21 PM |
| Object: |
What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
With national elections coming late next year, it is inevitable that the
topic of socialized medicine will again rear its ugly head. Much ado is
made about the 40,000,000 Americans who do not have health insurance,
which makes the fact that there are 260,000,000 Americans that do seem
insignificant. Of course the 40,000,000 figure likely includes many young
and healthy individuals with low risk of serious illness who don’t believe
that health insurance would be cost-effective. But that wouldn’t make a
good talking point.
If one wants to know how a national health care system would operate, one
needs to merely look at the systems our government has in place. The most
prominent form of socialized medicine in our country is the Department of
Veterans Affairs. With 235,000 employees and a budget of more than $60
billion, the VA is the federal government’s second largest department,
second only to the Department of Defense. It’s purpose it to provide
benefits, disability payments, and health care to military members once
they’ve left the service. The medical care provided at VA facilities is
generally considered to be top notch. That is, if you can even get to see
a doctor at all.
For those of us who have private health insurance, we can typically see a
doctor for any reason within a week or two, depending how busy that
doctor’s office is. Not so with VA health care, or any other socialized
health system for that matter. Private insurance yields considerable
flexibility and a range of choices. If health care is handed to the state,
you do it the state’s way on the state’s terms and that’s it. If its
one-size-fits-all plan doesn’t suit you, that’s too bad.
The reason for the failure of socialized medicine (aside from the fact
that it is run by the government) is the notion that the laws of supply
and demand can be ignored. Proponents of socialized medicine knowingly or
unknowingly want to create a system of unlimited health care for all
Americans. Unfortunately, unlimited health care incurs unlimited costs.
Since a system that incurs unlimited costs is obviously impossible to
operate, rationing of supply is inevitable. Now we have scenarios in which
priorities are assigned, and people who have brain tumors that will kill
them in a year won’t be treated until the people with brain tumors that
will kill them in eleven months are cured.
We can see evidence of this today in the Veterans Affairs health care
system. Patients sometimes have to wait months just to see a physician for
a non life-threatening condition. A backlog exists of 400,000 applications
and appeals for benefits, most of which are for veterans of previous wars.
This problem isn’t limited to the VA. In Canada, wait times to get into
hospitals can span weeks or months, including for simple procedures
(Compared with the US where wait times are generally dependent on
fulfilling medical requirements–such as no eating for a day or two). The
average wait time for treatment after seeing a general practitioner is a
little over 17 weeks.
Inevitably, you will have people who simply support socialized medicine in
general, despite all its failing. They assert that everyone has a right to
cheap or free health care no matter how crappy it is. The problem is that
health care is not a right in the traditional sense of what a right is.
True rights relate to the individual, such as free speech or freedom of
religion. To exercise these rights, one does not have to coerce someone
else to do something against his or her will. With a socialized medical
system, one must coerce complete strangers into funding your actions. You
are forcing others to be your slave.
Nationalizing health care, especially in the United States, would be a
disaster. The US government has shown an extraordinary propensity for
screwing up pretty much ANYTHING it gets involved in. Imagine yourself
dealing with the type of people at the IRS or DMV the next time you need
stitches.
http://fraudwasteabuse.wordpress.com/2007/03/04/what-will-universal-healthcare-be-like/
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| User: "Andy F." |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
05 Mar 2007 08:29:34 AM |
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"Deuteros" <deuteros@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:esfvuk$j5$1@news.onet.pl...
With national elections coming late next year, it is inevitable that the
topic of socialized medicine will again rear its ugly head. Much ado is
made about the 40,000,000 Americans who do not have health insurance,
which makes the fact that there are 260,000,000 Americans that do seem
insignificant. Of course the 40,000,000 figure likely includes many young
and healthy individuals with low risk of serious illness who don't believe
that health insurance would be cost-effective. But that wouldn't make a
good talking point.
The reason insurance isn't cost effective for a lot of people is because
they know that, if they get ill, they can go to a hospital and get treated
anyway.If neccessary, they can use the bankruptcy laws to avoid having to
pay.
The bankruptcy system is a form of social insurance. It's like a tax on the
hospital, the cost of which is passed on either to taxpayers or to anyone
who pays for their own treatment.(This make insurance more expensive, thus
encouraging more people to be uninsured.)
In other words, the USA already has a system of socialized medicine - just a
very inefficient and expensive one.
The only real alternative to socialized medicine or universal insurance is
to leave people bleeding to death in the streets.
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| User: "Jerry Okamura" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
05 Mar 2007 03:29:32 PM |
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"Andy F." <never.mind@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:552nqeF2390g3U1@mid.individual.net...
"Deuteros" <deuteros@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:esfvuk$j5$1@news.onet.pl...
With national elections coming late next year, it is inevitable that the
topic of socialized medicine will again rear its ugly head. Much ado is
made about the 40,000,000 Americans who do not have health insurance,
which makes the fact that there are 260,000,000 Americans that do seem
insignificant. Of course the 40,000,000 figure likely includes many young
and healthy individuals with low risk of serious illness who don't
believe
that health insurance would be cost-effective. But that wouldn't make a
good talking point.
The reason insurance isn't cost effective for a lot of people is because
they know that, if they get ill, they can go to a hospital and get treated
anyway.If neccessary, they can use the bankruptcy laws to avoid having to
pay.
The bankruptcy system is a form of social insurance. It's like a tax on
the hospital, the cost of which is passed on either to taxpayers or to
anyone who pays for their own treatment.(This make insurance more
expensive, thus encouraging more people to be uninsured.)
In other words, the USA already has a system of socialized medicine - just
a very inefficient and expensive one.
The only real alternative to socialized medicine or universal insurance is
to leave people bleeding to death in the streets.
For most of this countries history, there was for all practical purposes, no
such thing as a third party payment system. How did the people in this
country survive, thrive, and build the strongest economy in the world,
without such a system? The explosion in third party payment occurred when
Roosevelt allowed companies to deduct the cost of medical care they gave to
their employees. Since that time, well beginning in 1950, medical price
inflation has consistently outpaced the overall inflation rate. Before
1950, medical price inflation was consistently below the overall inflation
rate. What do you think caused that sudden change?
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| User: "Timberwoof" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
05 Mar 2007 06:51:13 PM |
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In article <45eca7e5$0$27112$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Andy F." <never.mind@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:552nqeF2390g3U1@mid.individual.net...
"Deuteros" <deuteros@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:esfvuk$j5$1@news.onet.pl...
With national elections coming late next year, it is inevitable that the
topic of socialized medicine will again rear its ugly head. Much ado is
made about the 40,000,000 Americans who do not have health insurance,
which makes the fact that there are 260,000,000 Americans that do seem
insignificant. Of course the 40,000,000 figure likely includes many young
and healthy individuals with low risk of serious illness who don't
believe
that health insurance would be cost-effective. But that wouldn't make a
good talking point.
The reason insurance isn't cost effective for a lot of people is because
they know that, if they get ill, they can go to a hospital and get treated
anyway.If neccessary, they can use the bankruptcy laws to avoid having to
pay.
The bankruptcy system is a form of social insurance. It's like a tax on
the hospital, the cost of which is passed on either to taxpayers or to
anyone who pays for their own treatment.(This make insurance more
expensive, thus encouraging more people to be uninsured.)
In other words, the USA already has a system of socialized medicine - just
a very inefficient and expensive one.
The only real alternative to socialized medicine or universal insurance is
to leave people bleeding to death in the streets.
For most of this countries history, there was for all practical purposes, no
such thing as a third party payment system. How did the people in this
country survive, thrive, and build the strongest economy in the world,
without such a system? The explosion in third party payment occurred when
Roosevelt allowed companies to deduct the cost of medical care they gave to
their employees. Since that time, well beginning in 1950, medical price
inflation has consistently outpaced the overall inflation rate. Before
1950, medical price inflation was consistently below the overall inflation
rate. What do you think caused that sudden change?
You can't compare the economics of medical care in the late 1900s with
that in the early 1800s. Why, in the 1800s, they were still working out
the basics, such as washing your hands *before* surgery. One of the
earliest cardiologists said, Just pierce the lung. When it deflates, you
will have easy access to the heart.
So, in answer to your question, "How did the people in this country
survive, thrive, and build the strongest economy in the world, without
such a system?" I'd answer, "They died a lot."
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
Level 1 Linux technical support: Read The Fscking Manual!
Level 2 Linux technical support: Write The Fscking Code Yourself!
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| User: "Bob Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
05 Mar 2007 08:27:21 PM |
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Timberwoof wrote:
So, in answer to your question, "How did the people in this country
survive, thrive, and build the strongest economy in the world, without
such a system?" I'd answer, "They died a lot."
And we still do. So far every one who was ever born as died or will die.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Timberwoof" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
05 Mar 2007 10:54:54 PM |
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In article <5541saF23itakU4@mid.individual.net>,
Bob Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
Timberwoof wrote:
So, in answer to your question, "How did the people in this country
survive, thrive, and build the strongest economy in the world, without
such a system?" I'd answer, "They died a lot."
And we still do. So far every one who was ever born as died or will die.
Oh, so in other words, the whole health care system is entirely
superfluous. Everybody's going to die anyway, so why invest any money at
all into medical research or care for the sick and injured?
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
Level 1 Linux technical support: Read The Fscking Manual!
Level 2 Linux technical support: Write The Fscking Code Yourself!
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| User: "Bob Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
06 Mar 2007 02:08:49 AM |
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Timberwoof wrote:
Oh, so in other words, the whole health care system is entirely
superfluous. Everybody's going to die anyway, so why invest any money at
all into medical research or care for the sick and injured?
Only in a small percent of cases does acute health care save lives. Most
of our life expectancy increase comes from improved hygene and
immunizations. I would not say acute health care is superfluous. I would
say there are more important factors such as eating right, excercising,
avoiding certain bad habits (like smoking, overeathing, and too much
boozing). That will do more on the statistical average than fancy acute
care technology.
Clean public water supplies did more to increase life expectancy in the
U.S. and England than did acute medical care. Once typhoid and cholera
were licked (a matter of hygene and clean water) the life expectancy
jumped five to seven years.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
06 Mar 2007 11:58:12 AM |
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Bob Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
Timberwoof wrote:
Oh, so in other words, the whole health care system is entirely
superfluous. Everybody's going to die anyway, so why invest any money at
all into medical research or care for the sick and injured?
Only in a small percent of cases does acute health care save lives. Most
of our life expectancy increase comes from improved hygene and
immunizations.
Routine medical care, in other words. Exactly the sort of medical
care that the US system does NOT provide to tens of millions of
people.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Bob Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
06 Mar 2007 12:28:47 PM |
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Ray Fischer wrote:
Routine medical care, in other words. Exactly the sort of medical
care that the US system does NOT provide to tens of millions of
people.
That is not medical care. Hygene means clean water, untainted food, good
habits and excercise all of which one can provide for himself, if he has
the wits and the will to do so.
Excercise and weight control are worth 16 times more than medical care.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
06 Mar 2007 12:33:17 PM |
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Bob Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Routine medical care, in other words. Exactly the sort of medical
care that the US system does NOT provide to tens of millions of
people.
That is not medical care.
Routine medical care is not medical care?
Hygene means clean water, untainted food, good
habits and excercise all of which one can provide for himself, if he has
the wits and the will to do so.
Which isn't a problem in the US. Except, of course, when republicans
allow corporations to pollute the air and water and sell food that
causes health problems.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Bob Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
06 Mar 2007 01:05:07 PM |
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Ray Fischer wrote:>
Which isn't a problem in the US. Except, of course, when republicans
allow corporations to pollute the air and water and sell food that
causes health problems.
***** that. The air and water in the U.S. has been steadily polluted
since the 19th century. Democrats have been doing much talking a little
doing about cleanup. Democrats are interested in jobs, jobs, jobs,
primarily which is why they are going to do squatdoodle about polluition.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
06 Mar 2007 11:58:18 PM |
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Bob Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:>
Which isn't a problem in the US. Except, of course, when republicans
allow corporations to pollute the air and water and sell food that
causes health problems.
***** that. The air and water in the U.S. has been steadily polluted
since the 19th century.
Obviously you're reduced to playing dishonest games. Air and water
have been greatly improved since the 1970s, despite the objections of
corporate interests and the republicans that serve them.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "osprey" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
07 Mar 2007 04:44:23 AM |
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On Mar 7, 12:58 am, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
Bob Kolker <nowh...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:>
Which isn't a problem in the US. Except, of course, when republicans
allow corporations to pollute the air and water and sell food that
causes health problems.
***** that. The air and water in the U.S. has been steadily polluted
since the 19th century.
Obviously you're reduced to playing dishonest games. Air and water
have been greatly improved since the 1970s, despite the objections of
corporate interests and the republicans that serve them.
Is that why in most states, they have health warnings about swimming
in ponds, rivers, lakes, and oceans, and warning people to eat a very
small limited amount of fish or none at all?
That's a great improvement in your eyes?
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
07 Mar 2007 09:32:11 AM |
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In article <1173264263.377201.63130@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
On Mar 7, 12:58 am, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
Bob Kolker <nowh...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:>
Which isn't a problem in the US. Except, of course, when republicans
allow corporations to pollute the air and water and sell food that
causes health problems.
***** that. The air and water in the U.S. has been steadily polluted
since the 19th century.
Obviously you're reduced to playing dishonest games. Air and water
have been greatly improved since the 1970s, despite the objections of
corporate interests and the republicans that serve them.
Is that why in most states, they have health warnings about swimming
in ponds, rivers, lakes, and oceans, and warning people to eat a very
small limited amount of fish or none at all?
That's a great improvement in your eyes?
Osprey is an idiot. Here is proof that what Ray says is true - even in
Delaware:
³As recently as 1975, Delaware routinely experienced serious water
pollution and public health problems as a result of the discharge of
untreated sewage. Since then, as a result of voluntary efforts,
regulatory actions, and significant private and public investments in
wastewater treatment facilities, localized improvements in water
quality have been achieved.³
<http://tinyurl.com/26apkp>
Osprey is merely a Right Wing parrot that repeats Right Wing *****.
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| User: "Osprey" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
07 Mar 2007 09:45:16 AM |
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"David W. Barnes" <yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com> wrote in message
news:070320070732114827%yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com...
In article <1173264263.377201.63130@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
On Mar 7, 12:58 am, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
Bob Kolker <nowh...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:>
Which isn't a problem in the US. Except, of course, when
republicans
allow corporations to pollute the air and water and sell food that
causes health problems.
***** that. The air and water in the U.S. has been steadily polluted
since the 19th century.
Obviously you're reduced to playing dishonest games. Air and water
have been greatly improved since the 1970s, despite the objections of
corporate interests and the republicans that serve them.
Is that why in most states, they have health warnings about swimming
in ponds, rivers, lakes, and oceans, and warning people to eat a very
small limited amount of fish or none at all?
That's a great improvement in your eyes?
Osprey is an idiot. Here is proof that what Ray says is true - even in
Delaware:
³As recently as 1975, Delaware routinely experienced serious water
pollution and public health problems as a result of the discharge of
untreated sewage. Since then, as a result of voluntary efforts,
regulatory actions, and significant private and public investments in
wastewater treatment facilities, localized improvements in water
quality have been achieved.³
<http://tinyurl.com/26apkp>
Osprey is merely a Right Wing parrot that repeats Right Wing *****.
Do some research idiot.
See where Delaware is in the rankings..
http://www.ewg.org/reports/dishonorable/ddrivers.html
# 8
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
07 Mar 2007 10:14:13 AM |
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In article <TM-dnXyzpMWQQ3PYnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@comcast.com>, Osprey
<NoNeedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
"David W. Barnes" <yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com> wrote in message
news:070320070732114827%yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com...
In article <1173264263.377201.63130@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
On Mar 7, 12:58 am, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
Bob Kolker <nowh...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:>
Which isn't a problem in the US. Except, of course, when
republicans
allow corporations to pollute the air and water and sell food that
causes health problems.
***** that. The air and water in the U.S. has been steadily polluted
since the 19th century.
Obviously you're reduced to playing dishonest games. Air and water
have been greatly improved since the 1970s, despite the objections of
corporate interests and the republicans that serve them.
Is that why in most states, they have health warnings about swimming
in ponds, rivers, lakes, and oceans, and warning people to eat a very
small limited amount of fish or none at all?
That's a great improvement in your eyes?
Osprey is an idiot. Here is proof that what Ray says is true - even in
Delaware:
³As recently as 1975, Delaware routinely experienced serious water
pollution and public health problems as a result of the discharge of
untreated sewage. Since then, as a result of voluntary efforts,
regulatory actions, and significant private and public investments in
wastewater treatment facilities, localized improvements in water
quality have been achieved.³
<http://tinyurl.com/26apkp>
Osprey is merely a Right Wing parrot that repeats Right Wing *****.
Do some research idiot.
See where Delaware is in the rankings..
http://www.ewg.org/reports/dishonorable/ddrivers.html
# 8
And that is relevant how? Someone needs to be #8. The point is, it
has improved since 1975. Remember the claim you denied?
Stop trying to run from your stupidity.
.
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| User: "Osprey" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
07 Mar 2007 10:23:08 AM |
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"David W. Barnes" <yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com> wrote in message
news:070320070814134416%yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com...
In article <TM-dnXyzpMWQQ3PYnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@comcast.com>, Osprey
<NoNeedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
"David W. Barnes" <yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com> wrote in message
news:070320070732114827%yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com...
In article <1173264263.377201.63130@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
On Mar 7, 12:58 am, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
Bob Kolker <nowh...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:>
Which isn't a problem in the US. Except, of course, when
republicans
allow corporations to pollute the air and water and sell food
that
causes health problems.
***** that. The air and water in the U.S. has been steadily polluted
since the 19th century.
Obviously you're reduced to playing dishonest games. Air and water
have been greatly improved since the 1970s, despite the objections
of
corporate interests and the republicans that serve them.
Is that why in most states, they have health warnings about swimming
in ponds, rivers, lakes, and oceans, and warning people to eat a very
small limited amount of fish or none at all?
That's a great improvement in your eyes?
Osprey is an idiot. Here is proof that what Ray says is true - even in
Delaware:
³As recently as 1975, Delaware routinely experienced serious water
pollution and public health problems as a result of the discharge of
untreated sewage. Since then, as a result of voluntary efforts,
regulatory actions, and significant private and public investments in
wastewater treatment facilities, localized improvements in water
quality have been achieved.³
<http://tinyurl.com/26apkp>
Osprey is merely a Right Wing parrot that repeats Right Wing *****.
Do some research idiot.
See where Delaware is in the rankings..
http://www.ewg.org/reports/dishonorable/ddrivers.html
# 8
And that is relevant how? Someone needs to be #8. The point is, it
has improved since 1975. Remember the claim you denied?
No it hasn't *****, in fact just last year in Wilmington they had MAJOR
problems with the water.
Due to agriculture, the never ending expansion of business, factories,
housing developments..our bay is in even worse shape now than ever. For the
FIRST time in history, the Delaware weakfish is in danger.
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
07 Mar 2007 08:03:17 PM |
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In article <qYWdnXFKwIFwe3PYnZ2dnUVZ_o2vnZ2d@comcast.com>, Osprey
<NoNeedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
"David W. Barnes" <yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com> wrote in message
news:070320070814134416%yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com...
In article <TM-dnXyzpMWQQ3PYnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@comcast.com>, Osprey
<NoNeedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
"David W. Barnes" <yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com> wrote in message
news:070320070732114827%yeahyeahyeah@yeah.com...
In article <1173264263.377201.63130@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
On Mar 7, 12:58 am, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
Bob Kolker <nowh...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:>
Which isn't a problem in the US. Except, of course, when
republicans
allow corporations to pollute the air and water and sell food
that
causes health problems.
***** that. The air and water in the U.S. has been steadily polluted
since the 19th century.
Obviously you're reduced to playing dishonest games. Air and water
have been greatly improved since the 1970s, despite the objections
of
corporate interests and the republicans that serve them.
Is that why in most states, they have health warnings about swimming
in ponds, rivers, lakes, and oceans, and warning people to eat a very
small limited amount of fish or none at all?
That's a great improvement in your eyes?
Osprey is an idiot. Here is proof that what Ray says is true - even in
Delaware:
³As recently as 1975, Delaware routinely experienced serious water
pollution and public health problems as a result of the discharge of
untreated sewage. Since then, as a result of voluntary efforts,
regulatory actions, and significant private and public investments in
wastewater treatment facilities, localized improvements in water
quality have been achieved.³
<http://tinyurl.com/26apkp>
Osprey is merely a Right Wing parrot that repeats Right Wing *****.
Do some research idiot.
See where Delaware is in the rankings..
http://www.ewg.org/reports/dishonorable/ddrivers.html
# 8
And that is relevant how? Someone needs to be #8. The point is, it
has improved since 1975. Remember the claim you denied?
No it hasn't *****, in fact just last year in Wilmington they had MAJOR
problems with the water.
Stop denying reality.
Due to agriculture, the never ending expansion of business, factories,
housing developments..our bay is in even worse shape now than ever. For the
FIRST time in history, the Delaware weakfish is in danger.
Read the article, dip *****.
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| User: "Bob Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
07 Mar 2007 10:36:49 AM |
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Osprey wrote:
Do some research idiot.
See where Delaware is in the rankings..
http://www.ewg.org/reports/dishonorable/ddrivers.html
The Delaware River is righteously polluted. Industry serving our needs.
If we are not polluting the environment we are not getting our money's
worth from it. The idea is to keep the level of pollution on the sunny
side of self-extinction.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
07 Mar 2007 10:28:32 AM |
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osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
Bob Kolker <nowh...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:>
Which isn't a problem in the US. Except, of course, when republicans
allow corporations to pollute the air and water and sell food that
causes health problems.
***** that. The air and water in the U.S. has been steadily polluted
since the 19th century.
Obviously you're reduced to playing dishonest games. Air and water
have been greatly improved since the 1970s, despite the objections of
corporate interests and the republicans that serve them.
Is that why in most states, they have health warnings about swimming
in ponds, rivers, lakes, and oceans, and warning people to eat a very
small limited amount of fish or none at all?
Because, you stupid *****, people got tired of corporations killing
them with stealth poisons.
That's a great improvement in your eyes?
You're one of those morons who thinks that if you don't know about it
then it must not exist.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Robert" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
07 Mar 2007 12:29:31 PM |
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On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:27:21 -0500, Bob Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com>
wrote:
Timberwoof wrote:
So, in answer to your question, "How did the people in this country
survive, thrive, and build the strongest economy in the world, without
such a system?" I'd answer, "They died a lot."
And we still do. So far every one who was ever born as died or will die.
Bob Kolker
True difference is people used to die at a younger age, so spent less
time as non productive consumers, especially of Medical care. The
number of people at all ages over sixty five is growing at a rapid
rate. This causes a increasing load on the medical system.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Bob Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
07 Mar 2007 10:44:40 AM |
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Robert wrote:
True difference is people used to die at a younger age, so spent less
time as non productive consumers, especially of Medical care. The
number of people at all ages over sixty five is growing at a rapid
rate. This causes a increasing load on the medical system.
Then why is life expectancy -increasing- in the U.S. We may be behind
other countries, but our L.E. is still increasing.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Robert" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
08 Mar 2007 06:05:45 PM |
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On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:44:40 -0500, Bob Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com>
wrote:
Robert wrote:
True difference is people used to die at a younger age, so spent less
time as non productive consumers, especially of Medical care. The
number of people at all ages over sixty five is growing at a rapid
rate. This causes a increasing load on the medical system.
Then why is life expectancy -increasing- in the U.S. We may be behind
other countries, but our L.E. is still increasing.
Bob Kolker
Better sanitation, better hygiene, better food, and better medical
care. I am a prime example, now 68 tears old, fifty years ago, I would
have died at 63 when I had my heart attack. I now have a pace maker,
that keeps my heart pumping correctly. BTW my private insurance paid
for every thing but the deductible. $500.00 which most people never
pay.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
08 Mar 2007 05:42:33 PM |
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"Robert" <robpar@netportusa.com> wrote in message
news:pq81v214khq2jdo7v5pciq7490vd1gn36m@4ax.com...
On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:44:40 -0500, Bob Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com>
wrote:
Robert wrote:
True difference is people used to die at a younger age, so spent less
time as non productive consumers, especially of Medical care. The
number of people at all ages over sixty five is growing at a rapid
rate. This causes a increasing load on the medical system.
Then why is life expectancy -increasing- in the U.S. We may be behind
other countries, but our L.E. is still increasing.
Bob Kolker
Better sanitation, better hygiene, better food, and better medical
care. I am a prime example, now 68 tears old, fifty years ago, I would
have died at 63 when I had my heart attack. I now have a pace maker,
that keeps my heart pumping correctly. BTW my private insurance paid
for every thing but the deductible. $500.00 which most people never
pay.
Theuy may not have paid ot when you had your surgery.
Today the bills o out while you are still in the hospital, and collections
notices go out while you are rehabbing.
Medcical bills, promarily hospital bills, are the #A1 cause of bankruptcy..
Oh, and a lot of what was once paid by insurance no lionger is.
For example. no hospital in the US has its own emergency room anymore ---
they have all been spun off/sold off as private enterprises.
So, if you are picked up by an ambulace ( easily $1000), admitted to an
emergency room ( even if just for triage) then transferred tot he hospital
bills of several thousand dollars NOT COVERED BY MOST INSURANCE are awaiting
you when you get home.
A recetn study found the average hospital stay by Americans resuluted iin
bills of $5000 not covered by insurance.
Larry
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Bob Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
08 Mar 2007 06:31:35 PM |
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Larry Hewitt wrote:
So, if you are picked up by an ambulace ( easily $1000), admitted to an
emergency room ( even if just for triage) then transferred tot he hospital
bills of several thousand dollars NOT COVERED BY MOST INSURANCE are awaiting
you when you get home.
However if you are Poor and do not have a pot to ***** in, the laws
require the emergency facilities to render treatment. In the U.S.A. the
poor are treated at no charge to them. The rest of us pay for it.
The obvious thing for a non-rich person to do is sell or give away all
his goods and become a pauper. Then he will get all of his medical care
at no charge.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Bob Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
08 Mar 2007 06:22:20 PM |
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Robert wrote:
Better sanitation, better hygiene, better food, and better medical
Which is what I have been telling you. Sanitation and hygene have for
influence on life exepectancy than actue condition medical care.
In England that added five years to the life expectancy just by spiking
the pumps that were spewing water carrying cholera and typhoid.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
08 Mar 2007 11:08:56 PM |
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Bob Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
Robert wrote:
Better sanitation, better hygiene, better food, and better medical
Which is what I have been telling you. Sanitation and hygene have for
influence on life exepectancy than actue condition medical care.
A claim which you have not even attempted to justify. Further I
notice you trying to move the goalposts by now limiting your argument
to "acute" medical care.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Bob Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
08 Mar 2007 11:45:24 PM |
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Ray Fischer wrote:
A claim which you have not even attempted to justify. Further I
notice you trying to move the goalposts by now limiting your argument
to "acute" medical care.
Hygene and sanitation includes immunization. That is not acute care.
That is preventative medicine. Spiking the pumps that spew water loaded
with cholera and typhoid bacteria is likewise preventative action,
although not medical. Prevention via immunization and hygene have a much
grater effect on life expectancy than acute medical care.
The L.E. in England was pushed up five years by spiking the pumps and
moving the drains -away- from the water sources long before anti-biotics
were invented. At least fifty years. In the U.S. clean municipal water
sources utilizing sand filtration and chlorination were put in place
long before sulfa drugs (an anti-biotic) were invented. Again with a
consequential increase in life expectancy. Handwashing by surgeons in
hospitals lowered the death rates from surgery much more than new
operations or fancy scalpels. Sanitiation and hygene have always lead
the way to lower death rates and longer L.E..
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
09 Mar 2007 12:04:17 AM |
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Bob Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
A claim which you have not even attempted to justify. Further I
notice you trying to move the goalposts by now limiting your argument
to "acute" medical care.
Hygene and sanitation includes immunization. That is not acute care.
But it is medical care. Sometimes it is expensive medical care.
The new HPV vaccine costs over $400. According to you, anybody who
can't afford it shouldn't get it.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Bob Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
09 Mar 2007 04:04:16 AM |
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Ray Fischer wrote:
But it is medical care. Sometimes it is expensive medical care.
The new HPV vaccine costs over $400. According to you, anybody who
can't afford it shouldn't get it.
Actually, for -contagious- diseases I would favor giving vaccinations
away for free to those who cannot afford it. Why? Because a contagious
disease can affact other people negatively. It is in my most proundly
selfish interest to see that contagious diseases do not spread. It might
me me sick or worse members of my family. So I stand forsquare and
postively in favor of vaccinating against contagious deadly diseases. It
is a matter of public safety, which makes it a matter matter of private
safety, namely mine.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: What will universal healthcare be like? Just look at the VA |
10 Mar 2007 12:27:50 AM |
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Bob Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
But it is medical care. Sometimes it is expensive medical care.
The new HPV vaccine costs over $400. According to you, anybody who
can't afford it shouldn't get it.
Actually, for -contagious- diseases I would favor giving vaccinations
away for free to those who cannot afford it. Why?
Because you're a selfish creep who makes up rules as you go.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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