| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J McCoy" |
| Date: |
05 Nov 2003 10:06:38 PM |
| Object: |
!. Well what then caused God? |
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space), then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
JM
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| User: "Boikat" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
05 Nov 2003 10:15:18 PM |
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"J McCoy" <mccoy@sunset.net> wrote in message
news:3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com...
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
False dichotomy
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space), then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
What makes you think any presently known physical laws applied to the
universe prior to the big bang?
BTW, have you sent gen2rev a valid replacement check?
Boikat
JM
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| User: "Ron Baker" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
05 Nov 2003 11:48:57 PM |
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"J McCoy" <mccoy@sunset.net> wrote in message
news:3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com...
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space),
Lost? What do you mean lost? It is still there.
then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
JM
Welcome to the group.
If you persist you will be a great source of TQOTM.
-Ron
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| User: "Robert Dean" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
09 Nov 2003 11:27:46 PM |
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"Ron Baker" <rbaker4@msnn.com> wrote in message
news:zilqb.54764$Ub4.5087@twister.socal.rr.com...
"J McCoy" <mccoy@sunset.net> wrote in message
news:3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com...
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space),
Lost? What do you mean lost? It is still there.
Energy to do work!
then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
JM
Welcome to the group.
If you persist you will be a great source of TQOTM.
-Ron
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| User: "Ron Baker" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
11 Nov 2003 07:07:58 AM |
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"Robert Dean" <robd@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:PiFrb.57121$SV2.5464@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Ron Baker" <rbaker4@msnn.com> wrote in message
news:zilqb.54764$Ub4.5087@twister.socal.rr.com...
"J McCoy" <mccoy@sunset.net> wrote in message
news:3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com...
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space),
Lost? What do you mean lost? It is still there.
Energy to do work!
Matter/energy is conserved.
When it is organized it can do work.
In doing work it becomes less organized.
In net, matter/energy can not become more organized.
When it becomes less organized it is not gone,
it just can't do as much work.
then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
JM
Welcome to the group.
If you persist you will be a great source of TQOTM.
-Ron
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
11 Nov 2003 03:17:22 PM |
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In article <R4Grb.8121$pE3.5525@twister.socal.rr.com>,
"Ron Baker" <rbaker4@msnn.com> wrote:
Matter/energy is conserved.
When it is organized it can do work.
In doing work it becomes less organized.
In net, matter/energy can not become more organized.
When it becomes less organized it is not gone,
it just can't do as much work.
Maybe that's what has happened to God(s).
God(s) created a universe operated under the laws of thermodynamics,
which then, over time, diminished the powers of God(s).
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| User: "William Klee" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
12 Nov 2003 08:38:18 AM |
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In article <vmhjr2-F842D1.14164111112003@news.newsguy.com>, Virgil
<vmhjr2@comcast.net> wrote:
In article <R4Grb.8121$pE3.5525@twister.socal.rr.com>,
"Ron Baker" <rbaker4@msnn.com> wrote:
Matter/energy is conserved.
When it is organized it can do work.
In doing work it becomes less organized.
In net, matter/energy can not become more organized.
When it becomes less organized it is not gone,
it just can't do as much work.
Maybe that's what has happened to God(s).
God(s) created a universe operated under the laws of thermodynamics,
which then, over time, diminished the powers of God(s).
Hmmm... You may be onto something here. Let us make a few postulates
(or are they hypothoses?)
1: God has always existed.
2: God has never increased (there is no more god now then there was at
the "Fiat Lux" point)
3: At "Fiat Lux" (the big bang) god permated all space (all r =
1/skillionth of an angstrom of it)
4: God *still* permates all space (all r = 15 billion l.y. of it)
5: God is stretched pretty thin these days.
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| User: "Paul M Koloc" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
12 Nov 2003 10:15:51 AM |
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William Klee wrote:
In article <vmhjr2-F842D1.14164111112003@news.newsguy.com>, Virgil
<vmhjr2@comcast.net> wrote:
In article <R4Grb.8121$pE3.5525@twister.socal.rr.com>,
"Ron Baker" <rbaker4@msnn.com> wrote:
Matter/energy is conserved.
When it is organized it can do work.
In doing work it becomes less organized.
In net, matter/energy can not become more organized.
When it becomes less organized it is not gone,
it just can't do as much work.
Maybe that's what has happened to God(s).
God(s) created a universe operated under the laws of thermodynamics,
which then, over time, diminished the powers of God(s).
Hmmm... You may be onto something here. Let us make a few postulates
(or are they hypothoses?)
1: God has always existed.
2: God has never increased (there is no more god now then there was at
the "Fiat Lux" point)
3: At "Fiat Lux" (the big bang) god permated all space (all r =
1/skillionth of an angstrom of it)
4: God *still* permates all space (all r = 15 billion l.y. of it)
5: God is stretched pretty thin these days.
The grand universe consists of three distinct universes. The Grand One
Dimension. GOD It is continuous, pointwise infinitely dense, and
exists over all time simultaneously. GOD is collinear with time.
There is a Grand 2 dimension which with time is a 3space and Grand 3
dimension, which with time is our 4 space. Our 4space has finite density.
So 1: is good
2: is insufficient
3: is false
4: is false
5: is technically true although GOD has an infinite point density at
every point in GOD and is severely restricted to GOD. GOD does not
exist in our 4space, nor can it be mapped to our 4space. So... GOD is
not thermodynamic.
Hyper physics is not appropriate for this news group.
--
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Paul M. Koloc; Prometheus II, Ltd.; 9903 Cottrell Terrace,
| Silver Spring, MD 20903-1927; FX (301) 434-6737:
|--PH (301) 445-1075 ; mailto:pmk@plasmak.com
|--Raising Support ; //www.neoteric-research.org
|--Grid Power ; //www.prometheus2.net
|------------------------------------------------------------|
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
15 Nov 2003 05:58:40 PM |
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On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:15:51 +0000 (UTC), Paul M Koloc
<xpmk@starpower.net> wrote:
William Klee wrote:
In article <vmhjr2-F842D1.14164111112003@news.newsguy.com>, Virgil
<vmhjr2@comcast.net> wrote:
In article <R4Grb.8121$pE3.5525@twister.socal.rr.com>,
"Ron Baker" <rbaker4@msnn.com> wrote:
Matter/energy is conserved.
When it is organized it can do work.
In doing work it becomes less organized.
In net, matter/energy can not become more organized.
When it becomes less organized it is not gone,
it just can't do as much work.
Maybe that's what has happened to God(s).
God(s) created a universe operated under the laws of thermodynamics,
which then, over time, diminished the powers of God(s).
Hmmm... You may be onto something here. Let us make a few postulates
(or are they hypothoses?)
1: God has always existed.
2: God has never increased (there is no more god now then there was at
the "Fiat Lux" point)
3: At "Fiat Lux" (the big bang) god permated all space (all r =
1/skillionth of an angstrom of it)
4: God *still* permates all space (all r = 15 billion l.y. of it)
5: God is stretched pretty thin these days.
The grand universe consists of three distinct universes. The Grand One
Dimension. GOD It is continuous, pointwise infinitely dense, and
exists over all time simultaneously. GOD is collinear with time.
There is a Grand 2 dimension which with time is a 3space and Grand 3
dimension, which with time is our 4 space. Our 4space has finite density.
So 1: is good
2: is insufficient
3: is false
4: is false
5: is technically true although GOD has an infinite point density at
every point in GOD and is severely restricted to GOD. GOD does not
exist in our 4space, nor can it be mapped to our 4space. So... GOD is
not thermodynamic.
Hyper physics is not appropriate for this news group.
And logic and actual science wasn't appropriate for your post, eh?
---
Mike atheism: a non-prophet
organization...
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way
when you do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their
shoes.
-------------------------------
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
15 Nov 2003 05:56:50 PM |
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On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:07:58 +0000 (UTC), "Ron Baker"
<rbaker4@msnn.com> wrote:
"Robert Dean" <robd@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:PiFrb.57121$SV2.5464@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Ron Baker" <rbaker4@msnn.com> wrote in message
news:zilqb.54764$Ub4.5087@twister.socal.rr.com...
"J McCoy" <mccoy@sunset.net> wrote in message
news:3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com...
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space),
Lost? What do you mean lost? It is still there.
Energy to do work!
Matter/energy is conserved.
When it is organized it can do work.
In doing work it becomes less organized.
In net, matter/energy can not become more organized.
When it becomes less organized it is not gone,
it just can't do as much work.
True. The original should have said "available energy is being
dissipated and lost in the cold of space."
---
Mike atheism: a non-prophet
organization...
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way
when you do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their
shoes.
-------------------------------
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
21 Nov 2003 11:12:49 PM |
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 04:55:52 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:56:50 +0000 (UTC),
posted in alt.atheism:
True. The original should have said "available energy is being
dissipated and lost in the cold of space."
It's still available. Energy is never lost. At the heat death of the
universe (there can't be an "after" the heat death of the universe)
There can't not be an "after" the heat death of the universe.
Time is a measure of entropy.
--
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid
consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and
ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who
works on the basis of reward and punishment. "
- Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "William Barwell" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
23 Nov 2003 08:45:23 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 04:55:52 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:56:50 +0000 (UTC),
posted in alt.atheism:
True. The original should have said "available energy is being
dissipated and lost in the cold of space."
It's still available. Energy is never lost. At the heat death of the
universe (there can't be an "after" the heat death of the universe)
There can't not be an "after" the heat death of the universe.
Time is a measure of entropy.
If current theory is true, then particles do have definite lifespans.
A free neutron has a lifespan of 11 minutes.
So the eventual end of the Universe is probably far more
dramatic than mere heat death, entropy.
There may also be a collapse of various forces of the Universe and
a true end as the Universe collapses back into a singularity and rejoins
the fields that are the true source of matter, space, time and energy.
Even entropy has its end here.
--
Bush! Chimp or chump?
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
26 Nov 2003 07:48:46 PM |
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On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 05:12:49 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 04:55:52 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:56:50 +0000 (UTC),
posted in alt.atheism:
True. The original should have said "available energy is being
dissipated and lost in the cold of space."
It's still available. Energy is never lost. At the heat death of the
universe (there can't be an "after" the heat death of the universe)
There can't not be an "after" the heat death of the universe.
Time is a measure of entropy.
Does your clock run faster as entropy increases?
--
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
28 Nov 2003 01:48:20 PM |
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On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 01:48:46 +0000 (UTC), Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 05:12:49 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 04:55:52 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:56:50 +0000 (UTC),
posted in alt.atheism:
True. The original should have said "available energy is being
dissipated and lost in the cold of space."
It's still available. Energy is never lost. At the heat death of the
universe (there can't be an "after" the heat death of the universe)
There can't not be an "after" the heat death of the universe.
Time is a measure of entropy.
Does your clock run faster as entropy increases?
No, the "advance" of time is really the increase in entropy.
--
"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be under-
stood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can
comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of
humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."
- 1954 or 1955; quoted in Dukas and Hoffman _Albert Einstein the Human Side_, p. 39
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
03 Dec 2003 10:19:46 AM |
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On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:48:20 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 01:48:46 +0000 (UTC), Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 05:12:49 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 04:55:52 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:56:50 +0000 (UTC),
posted in alt.atheism:
True. The original should have said "available energy is being
dissipated and lost in the cold of space."
It's still available. Energy is never lost. At the heat death of the
universe (there can't be an "after" the heat death of the universe)
There can't not be an "after" the heat death of the universe.
Time is a measure of entropy.
Does your clock run faster as entropy increases?
No, the "advance" of time is really the increase in entropy.
Which comic book did that come from? The bible?
--
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
17 Nov 2003 10:24:00 PM |
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On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:50:09 +0000 (UTC),
posted in alt.atheism:
Ok, ok, "energy that was available to do work with is being dissipated
and lost in the cold of space..." Happy now? :) By "available" I was
referring to energy that could be used. If there's no energy
differential, then it's not available for work since work requires the
differential to be lowered.
Well ...
Work requires that there BE a differential. Otherwise, yes.
--
"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their
numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion,
only His nonexistence could excuse Him."
-A. Einstein (Letter to Edgar Meyer, Jan. 2, 1915)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
20 Nov 2003 10:09:44 PM |
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On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 04:24:00 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein
<rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:50:09 +0000 (UTC),
posted in alt.atheism:
Ok, ok, "energy that was available to do work with is being dissipated
and lost in the cold of space..." Happy now? :) By "available" I was
referring to energy that could be used. If there's no energy
differential, then it's not available for work since work requires the
differential to be lowered.
Well ...
Work requires that there BE a differential. Otherwise, yes.
Well, yes, that was implicit in "work requires the differential to be
lowered" since you can't lower what doesn't exist :)
---
Mike atheism: a non-prophet
organization...
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way
when you do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their
shoes.
-------------------------------
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
24 Nov 2003 09:27:33 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 02:45:23 +0000 (UTC), William Barwell
<wbarwell@mungged.mylinuxisp.com> posted in alt.atheism:
There can't not be an "after" the heat death of the universe.
Time is a measure of entropy.
If current theory is true, then particles do have definite lifespans.
A free neutron has a lifespan of 11 minutes.
HDOTU has nothing to do with freeing neutrons.
So the eventual end of the Universe is probably far more
dramatic than mere heat death, entropy.
There may also be a collapse of various forces of the Universe and
a true end as the Universe collapses back into a singularity and rejoins
the fields that are the true source of matter, space, time and energy.
If all elementary particles break down. If not ...
--
"I can't activate two neurons simultaneously, and I vote"
- The theistic majority
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
16 Nov 2003 10:55:52 PM |
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On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:56:50 +0000 (UTC),
posted in alt.atheism:
True. The original should have said "available energy is being
dissipated and lost in the cold of space."
It's still available. Energy is never lost. At the heat death of the
universe (there can't be an "after" the heat death of the universe)
there will be as much matter-energy as there was at its "birth". When
everything is at the same energy level no work can be done, but the
energy will still be there - evenly distributed across the universe.
--
"If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can
solve them."
-Isaac Asimov
&
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
- (Will Rogers)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
17 Nov 2003 05:50:09 PM |
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On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 04:55:52 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein
<rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:56:50 +0000 (UTC),
posted in alt.atheism:
True. The original should have said "available energy is being
dissipated and lost in the cold of space."
It's still available. Energy is never lost. At the heat death of the
universe (there can't be an "after" the heat death of the universe)
there will be as much matter-energy as there was at its "birth". When
everything is at the same energy level no work can be done, but the
energy will still be there - evenly distributed across the universe.
Ok, ok, "energy that was available to do work with is being dissipated
and lost in the cold of space..." Happy now? :) By "available" I was
referring to energy that could be used. If there's no energy
differential, then it's not available for work since work requires the
differential to be lowered.
---
Mike atheism: a non-prophet
organization...
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way
when you do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their
shoes.
-------------------------------
.
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
21 Nov 2003 09:02:24 AM |
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On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 04:55:52 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:56:50 +0000 (UTC),
posted in alt.atheism:
True. The original should have said "available energy is being
dissipated and lost in the cold of space."
It's still available. Energy is never lost. At the heat death of the
universe (there can't be an "after" the heat death of the universe)
There can't not be an "after" the heat death of the universe.
there will be as much matter-energy as there was at its "birth". When
everything is at the same energy level no work can be done, but the
energy will still be there - evenly distributed across the universe.
--
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
03 Dec 2003 09:24:27 PM |
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On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:19:46 +0000 (UTC), Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:48:20 +0000 (UTC), Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
No, the "advance" of time is really the increase in entropy.
Which comic book did that come from? The bible?
Of course. The Book of Entropy.
--
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the
type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his
physical death is also beyond my comprehension,...; such notions are for the fears or
absurd egoism of feeble souls."
- Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Frank Reichenbacher" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
06 Nov 2003 07:58:28 AM |
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"J McCoy" <mccoy@sunset.net> wrote in message
news:3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com...
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space), then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
JM
You still owe $150 to gen2rev.
Frank
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| User: "Geoff Offermann" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
05 Nov 2003 10:34:27 PM |
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"J McCoy" <mccoy@sunset.net> wrote in message
news:3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com...
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
As Boikat pointed out, there are other choices as well e.g. the universe had
a beginning and was cause by as yet unknown natural processes.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space), then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
OK, let's look at 2. What caused the "something else". If this is thought
that this "primary cause" needed nothing to get it rolling, then why does
the universe need a cause?
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| User: "Sverker Johansson" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
06 Nov 2003 06:47:15 AM |
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(J McCoy) wrote in message news:<3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com>...
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
2A. The uncaused cause of the universe is another natural
phenomenon, external to what we perceive as the universe.
2B. Space aliens with a time machine did it.
2C. Zeus did it.
2D. Allah did it.
2E. Ssdfejkdathis did it.
..
..
..
2Z. Your favorite god did it.
3. The universe is self-caused
(see http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/9712344 )
4. The cause of the universe has a cause, which in its
turn has a cause, in an infinite chain.
5. The universe is a closed system, finite and uncaused
(e.g. Hawking's no-boundary-proposal).
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space), then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
Since the validity of the laws of thermo is not
self-evident over all scales and processes potentially
involved, and since 2LOT is only statistical, 1 cannot be
ruled out. Our Big Bang may be a Poincaré recurrence of
a low-entropy state in an infinitely old universe
(and if you don't know what that means, you have no business
invoking 2LOT in cosmology).
Best regards
Sverker Johansson
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| User: "Eric Gill" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
06 Nov 2003 08:41:13 AM |
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(J McCoy) wrote in news:3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4
@posting.google.com:
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
You are a complete stranger to logic, John.
Learn to write a check properly yet, McWelsher?
<snip>
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
06 Nov 2003 09:36:57 PM |
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(J McCoy) wrote:
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space), then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
Since time didn't exist before the Bib Bang -- and the mere concept of a
"before" is an absurdity -- you've left out the most obvious and the most
likely option: The Universe formed from a quantum fluctuation, basically
borrowing all its energy from the future. If the net energy of the
Universe is zero, that would be allowed.
As far as gods go, humns create gods, goddesses, picies, werewolves,
vampires et al.
---
Yes, George W. Bush is an unelected baby killing fascist dictator.
Also: Scientology's International President (Audio files of this
nutter available at http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice )
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| User: "John Stockwell" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
06 Nov 2003 12:48:11 PM |
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Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space), then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
No. All it tells us is that our naive notions regarding causality
and thermodynamics break down if we run the clock back far enough in
time. Nothing else.
JM
--
John Stockwell |
Center for Wave Phenomena (The Home of Seismic Un*x)
Colorado School of Mines
Golden, CO 80401 | http://www.cwp.mines.edu/cwpcodes
voice: (303) 273-3049
Our book:
Norman Bleistein, Jack K. Cohen, John W. Stockwell Jr., [2001],
Mathematics of multidimensional seismic imaging, migration, and inversion,
(Interdisciplinary Applied Mathematics, V. 13.), Springer-Verlag, New York.
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| User: "SReeseMe" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
06 Nov 2003 06:26:25 AM |
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Subject: !. Well what then caused God?
From: (J McCoy)
Date: 11/05/2003 11:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com>
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space), then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
JM
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that for a group of people that hate
and distrust science creationists sure put a lot of "faith" in the Second Law
of Thermodynamics? Just a passing thought while I wait for the coffee maker to
brew my morning transfusion.
-Stephen
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
06 Nov 2003 11:23:08 AM |
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On 06 Nov 2003, (SReeseMe) screwed up his face,
groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:20031106072625.25789.00000124@mb-m02.aol.com:
Subject: !. Well what then caused God?
From: (J McCoy)
Date: 11/05/2003 11:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com>
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space), then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
JM
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that for a group of people
that hate and distrust science creationists sure put a lot of "faith"
in the Second Law of Thermodynamics? Just a passing thought while I
wait for the coffee maker to brew my morning transfusion.
Interestingly enough, it doesn't mean even remotely what they think it
means.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.
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| User: "Ian H Spedding" |
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| Title: Re: !. Well what then caused God? |
06 Nov 2003 04:11:01 AM |
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In article <3f355ee.0311052006.165fc4e4@posting.google.com>,
mccoy@sunset.net says...
Logic tells us that one or the other had to be true:
1. The universe has always been and was uncaused.
Or.
2. There is something else that has been uncaused that caused this
universe.
Since 1. has been ruled out by the II law of thermodynamics (energy is
being dissipated and lost in the cold of space), then that means
something else, provided the energy to set everything in motion.
You haven't answered the question posed in the subject line.
Ian
--
Ian H Spedding
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