| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"johac" |
| Date: |
30 Jul 2003 01:33:09 AM |
| Object: |
10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
" She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another." I wonder
where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did she ever
study anything about any religion other than her own?
http://tinyurl.com/ihd3
---
10 Commandments Can Stay At Downtown Courthouse
Tue Jul 29, 7:50 PM ET
A federal judge ruled Monday that a plaque of the Ten Commandments
does not violate the constitution and can remain in place outside the
Allegheny County Courthouse.
The ruling is the latest development in a 1 1/2-year legal battle over
the plaque, which has been displayed on a wall outside the historic
Downtown building since 1918.
In making her decision, Judge Donetta Ambrose cited a June ruling by
the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) that allowed
a similar plaque to be displayed outside a courthouse near
Philadelphia. She also said Allegheny County's plaque did not endorse
any specific religion over another.
Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a Washington,
D.C.-based group that sued on behalf of two Allegheny County
residents, is deciding whether to appeal.
"(We) need to review the case in Allegheny County to see if it can be
factually distinguished from the Chester County case from a legal
standpoint," the group told Action News. "The Chester County case
impacted the case in Allegheny County quite severely."
Allegheny County Chief Executive Jim Roddey said the plaque is part of
Pittsburgh's cultural heritage.
"I believe very strongly in the separation of church and state. I
think that politics and religion should not mix. But this plaque is
historic," he said.
---
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed,
miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant,
miracles are still in vogue." -Letters of Ethan Allen to Thomas Jefferson
.
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| User: "Beowulf" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 08:56:10 AM |
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On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:33:09 -0700, johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com>
ejaculated:
" She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another." I wonder
where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did she ever
study anything about any religion other than her own?
http://tinyurl.com/ihd3
How quickly the tune would change when we start putting statements
from the Book of Mormon or Koran up there. Or better yet some of that
kinky ***** from the Kama Sutra.
--
<URL:http://www20.brinkster.com/beowulf9/gottod/JesusHatesTheLittleChildren.html>
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| User: "Ichimusai" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 01:35:26 PM |
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"Zeplerfer" <Zeplerfer@yahoo.comedy> writes:
Perhaps we could get a statue of Lady Liberty and the blind-folded gal with
the scales of justice showing off the Kama Sutra poses? It *is* a courtroom
after all :)
*LOL*
<wipes screen>
--
Ichimusai - Tolerated by two cats. ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo: Ichimusai
IRC: Ichimusai#AmigaSWE@IRCnet URI: http://www.ichimusai.org/
Imus ad magum Ozi videndum, magum Ozi mirum mirissimum.
We are going to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz.
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 04:04:49 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:35:26 +0200, Ichimusai <ichi@ichimusai.org> wrote in alt.atheism:
"Zeplerfer" <Zeplerfer@yahoo.comedy> writes:
Perhaps we could get a statue of Lady Liberty and the blind-folded gal with
the scales of justice showing off the Kama Sutra poses? It *is* a courtroom
after all :)
*LOL*
<wipes screen>
Shame on you!
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by vernon; NEW! IMPROVED! plonked by Lani_girl
I doubt, therefore I might be.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
31 Jul 2003 12:19:07 AM |
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In article <ECSVa.62966$6a3.1415766@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
"Zeplerfer" <Zeplerfer@yahoo.comedy> wrote:
"Beowulf" <beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f27ce54.580142645@news.alterdial.uu.net...
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:33:09 -0700, johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com
ejaculated:
" She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another." I wonder
where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did she ever
study anything about any religion other than her own?
http://tinyurl.com/ihd3
How quickly the tune would change when we start putting statements
from the Book of Mormon or Koran up there. Or better yet some of that
kinky ***** from the Kama Sutra.
Perhaps we could get a statue of Lady Liberty and the blind-folded gal with
the scales of justice showing off the Kama Sutra poses? It *is* a courtroom
after all :)
There is a famous temple in India, the outside of which is decorated
with friezes depicting men and women in all possible (and some highly
improbable) sex acts. I think that the Hindus should be allowed to
decorate at least one courthouse like that.
~Zeplerfer #423
I am *not* the leader of the EAC Denial Dept.
"Denying God and the EAC since 2003"
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed,
miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant,
miracles are still in vogue." -Letters of Ethan Allen to Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
31 Jul 2003 11:37:01 AM |
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On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 22:19:07 -0700, johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
In article <ECSVa.62966$6a3.1415766@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
"Zeplerfer" <Zeplerfer@yahoo.comedy> wrote:
"Beowulf" <beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f27ce54.580142645@news.alterdial.uu.net...
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:33:09 -0700, johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com
ejaculated:
" She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another." I wonder
where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did she ever
study anything about any religion other than her own?
http://tinyurl.com/ihd3
How quickly the tune would change when we start putting statements
from the Book of Mormon or Koran up there. Or better yet some of that
kinky ***** from the Kama Sutra.
Perhaps we could get a statue of Lady Liberty and the blind-folded gal with
the scales of justice showing off the Kama Sutra poses? It *is* a courtroom
after all :)
There is a famous temple in India, the outside of which is decorated
with friezes depicting men and women in all possible (and some highly
improbable) sex acts. I think that the Hindus should be allowed to
decorate at least one courthouse like that.
In Alabama.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by vernon; NEW! IMPROVED! plonked by Lani_girl
I doubt, therefore I might be.
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
01 Aug 2003 12:16:24 AM |
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In article <6chiivoa8rlvcf69v2ral9uopoo04i3nbk@4ax.com>,
Apostate <Apostate.invalid@yeehaw.org> wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 22:19:07 -0700, johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com> wrote in
alt.atheism:
In article <ECSVa.62966$6a3.1415766@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
"Zeplerfer" <Zeplerfer@yahoo.comedy> wrote:
"Beowulf" <beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f27ce54.580142645@news.alterdial.uu.net...
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:33:09 -0700, johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com
ejaculated:
" She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another." I wonder
where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did she ever
study anything about any religion other than her own?
http://tinyurl.com/ihd3
How quickly the tune would change when we start putting statements
from the Book of Mormon or Koran up there. Or better yet some of that
kinky ***** from the Kama Sutra.
Perhaps we could get a statue of Lady Liberty and the blind-folded gal
with
the scales of justice showing off the Kama Sutra poses? It *is* a
courtroom
after all :)
There is a famous temple in India, the outside of which is decorated
with friezes depicting men and women in all possible (and some highly
improbable) sex acts. I think that the Hindus should be allowed to
decorate at least one courthouse like that.
In Alabama.
Judge Moore's courthouse? I like it!
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed,
miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant,
miracles are still in vogue." -Letters of Ethan Allen to Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Beowulf" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
31 Jul 2003 09:15:20 AM |
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On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 04:04:23 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
ejaculated:
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:56:10 GMT,
(Beowulf) posted in alt.atheism:
How quickly the tune would change when we start putting statements
from the Book of Mormon or Koran up there. Or better yet some of that
kinky ***** from the Kama Sutra.
Oh, but those aren't the "true" religion.
Sure they are. I say so.
--
"Divine mental biopsy reveals you need psychosurgery." - Tourniquet
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 07:22:39 AM |
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johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com> wrote in alt.atheism
"She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another."
I wonder where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did
she ever study anything about any religion other than her own?
It's a plaque with the supposed commandments from a specific god and
it doesn't promote a specific religion? It's like logic has flown
right out the window with such people.
I see the same thing around the group here, when theists claim that
there's just ONE god out there, and they're all the same god, so that
saying one nation under God, or putting up a plaque with the supposed
commandments of their god is really not promoting any one specific
religion or god. Gimme a break.
Do you have an opinion on whether monotheism is a natural progression
of religion or not? I think the desire for power or control over a
group of people is easier if they all believe in the same god, but as
for it being a natural progression for different groups of individuals
who believe in many gods, I can't see the reason that they'd rather
just worship one god instead of many. I think force and coercion and
pressure is needed to achieve some absolute monotheism. And in the
case of the Bible stories, genocide is sometimes required to get rid
of the "bad people who worship more than one god."
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 08:37:40 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> writes:
johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com> wrote in alt.atheism
"She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another."
I wonder where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did
she ever study anything about any religion other than her own?
It's a plaque with the supposed commandments from a specific god and
it doesn't promote a specific religion? It's like logic has flown
right out the window with such people.
Not only that, this plaque (and the Chester County one) were both
given out by the International Reform Bureau, which urged a
constitutional amendment declaring the US a christian country.
But no, since it's "old", that somehow makes it OK.
At least the ACLU is appealing.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 10:17:24 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> writes:
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:37:40 +0000, Brian Westley wrote:
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> writes:
johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com> wrote in alt.atheism
"She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque (10Cs)
did not endorse any specific religion over another."
I wonder where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did
she ever study anything about any religion other than her own?
It's a plaque with the supposed commandments from a specific god and it
doesn't promote a specific religion? It's like logic has flown right out
the window with such people.
Not only that, this plaque (and the Chester County one) were both given
out by the International Reform Bureau, which urged a constitutional
amendment declaring the US a christian country.
But no, since it's "old", that somehow makes it OK.
I don't know. I often think that attacking old, historical landmark kinds
of things is a mistake.
But it isn't a "landmark", it's just an old example of christian
supremacy; with the current trend of allowing old violations but
not allowing new ones, that insures that only old (i.e. exclusively
christian) violations will survive, and no "new" plaques by other
groups will be allowed.
At least the ACLU is appealing.
Americans United sued.
ACLU sued in Chester county and is appealing that earlier decision:
http://www.post-gazette.com/localnews/20030730acburbp9.asp
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 11:01:35 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:56:59 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<iskanipa-y@hoo.com> posted in alt.atheism:
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:37:40 +0000, Brian Westley wrote:
But no, since it's "old", that somehow makes it OK.
I don't know. I often think that attacking old, historical landmark kinds
of things is a mistake.
So we shouldn't have attacked slavery?
--
"I can't activate two neurons simultaneously, and I vote"
- The theistic majority
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 10:59:16 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:22:39 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com> wrote in alt.atheism
"She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another."
I wonder where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did
she ever study anything about any religion other than her own?
It's a plaque with the supposed commandments from a specific god and
it doesn't promote a specific religion? It's like logic has flown
right out the window with such people.
It doesn't endorse any particular sect of Christianity over any other
sect of Christianity. Since Christianity is the only "real" religion,
that amounts to the same thing as not endorsing any specific religion
over another.
--
"Damn. Looks like all of usenet agrees that you don't have the logical
faculties to prove the statement 'dogshit is not peanut butter' if we
gave you a jar of each and a box of crackers" - John Hattan to Tic
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
31 Jul 2003 12:35:03 AM |
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In article <7t4hivo3vbrc6seqibce2sa1eftgng4pm3@Pern.rk>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:22:39 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com> wrote in alt.atheism
"She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another."
I wonder where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did
she ever study anything about any religion other than her own?
It's a plaque with the supposed commandments from a specific god and
it doesn't promote a specific religion? It's like logic has flown
right out the window with such people.
It doesn't endorse any particular sect of Christianity over any other
sect of Christianity. Since Christianity is the only "real" religion,
that amounts to the same thing as not endorsing any specific religion
over another.
Actually, even Christians cannot agree on the Commandments. The
Catholic version is different that the Protestant versions in that
they drop the Second one (images) and split the 10th into two parts
(New 9th deals with coveting wives, 10th with goods). Of course, some
of the more rabid fundies do not consider Catholics to be 'Christian'.
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed,
miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant,
miracles are still in vogue." -Letters of Ethan Allen to Thomas Jefferson
.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 08:34:30 AM |
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johac wrote:
" She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another." I wonder
where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did she ever
study anything about any religion other than her own?
http://tinyurl.com/ihd3
---
10 Commandments Can Stay At Downtown Courthouse
Tue Jul 29, 7:50 PM ET
A federal judge ruled Monday that a plaque of the Ten Commandments
does not violate the constitution and can remain in place outside the
Allegheny County Courthouse.
The ruling is the latest development in a 1 1/2-year legal battle over
the plaque, which has been displayed on a wall outside the historic
Downtown building since 1918.
In making her decision, Judge Donetta Ambrose cited a June ruling by
the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) that allowed
a similar plaque to be displayed outside a courthouse near
Philadelphia. She also said Allegheny County's plaque did not endorse
any specific religion over another.
Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a Washington,
D.C.-based group that sued on behalf of two Allegheny County
residents, is deciding whether to appeal.
"(We) need to review the case in Allegheny County to see if it can be
factually distinguished from the Chester County case from a legal
standpoint," the group told Action News. "The Chester County case
impacted the case in Allegheny County quite severely."
Allegheny County Chief Executive Jim Roddey said the plaque is part of
Pittsburgh's cultural heritage.
"I believe very strongly in the separation of church and state. I
think that politics and religion should not mix. But this plaque is
historic," he said.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but....
A demand that we worship one deity in particular is not endorsement of
religion?
A demand that we observe that deity's "holy day" and "keep it sacred" is not
an endorsement of religion?
A demand that we not worship who and what we want -- even if we want to
worship images of stone, brass or gold -- is not an endorsement of religion?
I think the local Atheist and Freethought organizations should team up with
local Jewish groups (which day is the sabbath?) and Hindu communities (what
was that about images of brass?) to help press their point.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"If you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you."
-- Benjamin Franklin
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 10:03:43 AM |
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Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net> wrote in alt.atheism
johac wrote:
" She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another." I wonder
where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did she ever
study anything about any religion other than her own?
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but....
I'll cheer along and add some stuff just to give you some moral
support.
A demand that we worship one deity in particular is not endorsement
of religion?
Here here! Or is it hear hear?
A demand that we observe that deity's "holy day" and "keep it sacred"
is not an endorsement of religion?
Let's see a constitutional amendment making Saturnday the true
holy day, since that's the original Jewish "day off." The ten
commandments came from the father of Jesus, so says the
Bible, so it's only logical that Saturnday should be the only
nationally recognized holy day.
Down with Sunday and the Sun worshippers and those who think
Jesus died on Venusday and arose on Sunday from his pretended
crucifixion!
Up with the Saturn believers and Saturnday as the one true holy
day of the week!
Let us challenge the Sun worshippers to change the actual words
of the ten commandments to say "Observe Sunday, and keep it holy."
Let us encourage them, just to see what will happen, and how the
Saturn worshippers will respond.
Hmm...
Wait a minute... I'm biting myself in the ***** here...
I LIKE having a two-day weekend, don't you?
Who cares if other people consider saturnday or sunday
more important or holy?
A demand that we not worship who and what we want -- even if we
want to worship images of stone, brass or gold -- is not an endorsement
of religion?
Heck no. Are you crazy or something?
I think the local Atheist and Freethought organizations should team up
with local Jewish groups (which day is the sabbath?) and Hindu communities
(what was that about images of brass?) to help press their point.
Perhaps we should team up with the Muslims and work out a
three-day-weekend deal which includes Moonday as an official
national day off, since they were originally moon worshippers?
It's only fair, don't you think?
Who in their right mind would object to a four-day work week and
three days off? Workaholics? Wait wait, there's gotta be somebody
working on those days off to sell stuff to the people who aren't
working on those days and take care of medical emergencies and
run the stores and things like that.
And let's not forget the Jupiter worshippers out there. Jupiter
day is the same as Thor's day. We can't very well leave them out
of the picture. And then there's the Venus/Isis/Mary worshippers.
Can't very well leave them out either, since Jesus died on vendredi.
The only problem that remains are those pesky Mars and Mercury
worshippers. If not for them, we could have a completely workless
week! Food would fall from the sky and it would be like the paradise
that the creator of it all intended! Yay!
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 11:03:35 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:03:43 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net> wrote in alt.atheism
A demand that we worship one deity in particular is not endorsement
of religion?
Here here! Or is it hear hear?
The latter.
Who in their right mind would object to a four-day work week and
three days off?
Those of us who'd rather reverse the two.
--
"If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can
solve them."
-Isaac Asimov
&
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
- (Will Rogers)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
31 Jul 2003 12:27:15 AM |
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In article <3F27C966.334D583F@serv.net>,
Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net> wrote:
johac wrote:
" She (Judge Donetta Ambrose) also said Allegheny County's plaque
(10Cs) did not endorse any specific religion over another." I wonder
where the good judge went to law school. For that matter, did she ever
study anything about any religion other than her own?
http://tinyurl.com/ihd3
---
10 Commandments Can Stay At Downtown Courthouse
Tue Jul 29, 7:50 PM ET
<snip article>
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but....
A demand that we worship one deity in particular is not endorsement of
religion?
A demand that we observe that deity's "holy day" and "keep it sacred" is not
an endorsement of religion?
A demand that we not worship who and what we want -- even if we want to
worship images of stone, brass or gold -- is not an endorsement of religion?
I think the local Atheist and Freethought organizations should team up with
local Jewish groups (which day is the sabbath?) and Hindu communities (what
was that about images of brass?) to help press their point.
I believe that Americans United is already involved in the case. I
agree that more groups should get involved. I think that theists
should also be concerned because if the state can impose one religion
today, they could someday impose another, which may not be to their
liking.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"If you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you."
-- Benjamin Franklin
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed,
miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant,
miracles are still in vogue." -Letters of Ethan Allen to Thomas Jefferson
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: 10Cs allowed to stay on PA courthouse. |
30 Jul 2003 11:01:36 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:34:30 -0700, Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
I think the local Atheist and Freethought organizations should team up with
local Jewish groups (which day is the sabbath?)
That's like asking which river is the Mississippi.
--
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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