| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"buckeye" |
| Date: |
11 Jan 2008 05:23:33 AM |
| Object: |
14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
11.15.07
Mandatory Moment of Silence Blocked!
http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/11/15/mandatory-moment-of-silence-blocked/
01.10.08
Dawn Sherman Featured in the Chicago Tribune
http://friendlyatheist.com/
The court decision
http://www.robsherman.com/advocacy/Gettleman071115.pdf
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
16 Jan 2008 11:26:42 AM |
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Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in
news:fdgro3d9geio03jugug35n3vkfhhq7pprg@4ax.com:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:08:28 -0500, John Baker
<nunya@bizniz.net> wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:08:48 +1030, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:53:25 -0000, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in
news:49pno39u9ks9ua1ccphtbj0uot6l4vrple@4ax.com:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:22:21 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"LibertySR" <nosend@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LradnWhkw4BhdBXanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com...
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for
optional prayer, i.e. a desire to have freedom **from**
religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you
know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
What does that have to do with having a mandatory moment of
silence at school? Funny, but I thought students were there
to learn.
When did that innovation begin?
Schools exist to provide teachers with jobs! ;)
No, historically, schools exist to socialize students, and
turn them in to productive members of society. Or, to put in
more bluntly, good little sheeple, like you.
WTF?
I am as far from being a "sheeple" as one could possibly hope
to get, you fucking moron.
Believe me, you're giving Terry *far* too much credit.
It is the ever optimistic streak in me.
Or is that in my underpants?
Pervert.
But you'll keep talking about me, cuz you can't stop. You know you
will.
--
Terry Austin
"There's no law west of the internet."
- Nick Stump
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
.
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
14 Jan 2008 06:22:02 PM |
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On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:22:21 -0500, in alt.atheism
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in
<5v1gcsF1k7kj2U1@mid.individual.net>:
"LibertySR" <nosend@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LradnWhkw4BhdBXanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com...
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
What does that have to do with having a mandatory moment of silence at
school? Funny, but I thought students were there to learn.
Sure, but only if they learn about so-called Christianity and how to
subvert the First Amendment. I refuse to believe that any real
Christians would ever engage in subverting our Constitution.
Please start the bagpipes now. "Blessed Redeemer" would be perfect.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
14 Jan 2008 11:39:12 PM |
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On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:22:02 -0600, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:22:21 -0500, in alt.atheism
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in
<5v1gcsF1k7kj2U1@mid.individual.net>:
"LibertySR" <nosend@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LradnWhkw4BhdBXanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com...
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
What does that have to do with having a mandatory moment of silence at
school? Funny, but I thought students were there to learn.
Sure, but only if they learn about so-called Christianity and how to
subvert the First Amendment. I refuse to believe that any real
Christians would ever engage in subverting our Constitution.
Please start the bagpipes now. "Blessed Redeemer" would be perfect.
Just no more "Amazing Grace", ok?
.
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
15 Jan 2008 07:06:03 PM |
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On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:09:12 +1030, in alt.atheism
Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in
<jnhoo3h2oabsgt93pqamngptjriv9qlikd@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:22:02 -0600, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:22:21 -0500, in alt.atheism
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in
<5v1gcsF1k7kj2U1@mid.individual.net>:
"LibertySR" <nosend@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LradnWhkw4BhdBXanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com...
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
What does that have to do with having a mandatory moment of silence at
school? Funny, but I thought students were there to learn.
Sure, but only if they learn about so-called Christianity and how to
subvert the First Amendment. I refuse to believe that any real
Christians would ever engage in subverting our Constitution.
Please start the bagpipes now. "Blessed Redeemer" would be perfect.
Just no more "Amazing Grace", ok?
It's bagpipes. The method of delivery tends to overwhelm whatever is
being delivered.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
16 Jan 2008 03:12:56 AM |
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On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:06:03 -0600, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:09:12 +1030, in alt.atheism
Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in
<jnhoo3h2oabsgt93pqamngptjriv9qlikd@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:22:02 -0600, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:22:21 -0500, in alt.atheism
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in
<5v1gcsF1k7kj2U1@mid.individual.net>:
"LibertySR" <nosend@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LradnWhkw4BhdBXanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com...
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
What does that have to do with having a mandatory moment of silence at
school? Funny, but I thought students were there to learn.
Sure, but only if they learn about so-called Christianity and how to
subvert the First Amendment. I refuse to believe that any real
Christians would ever engage in subverting our Constitution.
Please start the bagpipes now. "Blessed Redeemer" would be perfect.
Just no more "Amazing Grace", ok?
It's bagpipes. The method of delivery tends to overwhelm whatever is
being delivered.
I am ashamed to admit it.
But I have (all on my lonesome) authored, orchestrated & produced a
version of 'Mazin Grace, with "Garritan Personal Orchestra" Software
Suite. (The software is fuckin' mazing in itself!)
(Using grossly overdriven oboes in place of the bagpipe drones)
The pitch variance with the bag pressure was the most difficult to
simulate.
Here it is for you ear bending sufferance:
<http://web.newsguy.com/MichaelGray/Atheist/Amazing-Gracey.mp3>
I had to simulate that bag inflation phase with a pitch slide.
My excuse was that I was contracted to compose this for a US movie
company.
And that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!
.
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| User: "Lucifer" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 10:36:09 AM |
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On Jan 12, 4:25 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
But what about having a state institute have that said practise affect
the education of others?
--
Lucifer the Unsubtle, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil
and General Purpose Igor
The Anti-Theist, BAAWA Lowly Evilmeister and tamer of the Demon Duck
of Doom
Convicted by Earthquack
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
.
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 10:40:34 AM |
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Lucifer wrote:
On Jan 12, 4:25 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
But what about having a state institute have that said practise affect
the education of others?
I can't even guess what you're asking here. Please reword your question.
.
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| User: "Lucifer" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 10:54:24 AM |
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On Jan 12, 4:40 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
On Jan 12, 4:25 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
But what about having a state institute have that said practise affect
the education of others?
I can't even guess what you're asking here. Please reword your question.
In that case, you are pretty slow. The "moment of silence" is forcing
people to stop and be silent. Now how are they supposed to learn
during that time? It is simply taking their time at school and wasting
it.
--
Lucifer the Unsubtle, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil
and General Purpose Igor
The Anti-Theist, BAAWA Lowly Evilmeister and tamer of the Demon Duck
of Doom
Convicted by Earthquack
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
.
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 11:00:25 AM |
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Lucifer wrote:
On Jan 12, 4:40 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
On Jan 12, 4:25 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
But what about having a state institute have that said practise affect
the education of others?
I can't even guess what you're asking here. Please reword your question.
In that case, you are pretty slow. The "moment of silence" is forcing
people to stop and be silent. Now how are they supposed to learn
during that time? It is simply taking their time at school and wasting
it.
After typing that first question as you did you might want to refrain
from calling anyone "slow."
Whether a moment of silence is "wasting" educational time or not is
hardly a call for the courts to make. Your point is irrelevant to the
discussion.
But as for a learning opportunity, recognition that others around you
may have different spiritual beliefs and learning to be tolerant of them
isn't the worst lesson one could learn.
.
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| User: "Lucifer" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 03:55:16 PM |
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On Jan 12, 5:00 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
On Jan 12, 4:40 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
On Jan 12, 4:25 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
But what about having a state institute have that said practise affect
the education of others?
I can't even guess what you're asking here. Please reword your question.
In that case, you are pretty slow. The "moment of silence" is forcing
people to stop and be silent. Now how are they supposed to learn
during that time? It is simply taking their time at school and wasting
it.
After typing that first question as you did you might want to refrain
from calling anyone "slow."
It is taking someone else's time and wasting it so the religious can
pray? How is that not both an imposition of public practise of
religion and an interference with education?
PS - I may have been a little hasty with my previous reply, we tend to
react pretty quickly on A.A due to the sheer number of trolls.
--
Lucifer the Unsubtle, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil
and General Purpose Igor
The Anti-Theist, BAAWA Lowly Evilmeister and tamer of the Demon Duck
of Doom
Convicted by Earthquack
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
.
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 10:49:36 AM |
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Lucifer wrote:
After typing that first question as you did you might want to refrain
from calling anyone "slow."
It is taking someone else's time and wasting it so the religious can
pray? How is that not both an imposition of public practise of
religion and an interference with education?
Consider it a lesson in tolerance, something this country disparately
needs on many fronts.
PS - I may have been a little hasty with my previous reply, we tend to
react pretty quickly on A.A due to the sheer number of trolls.
No problem, thanks.
.
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| User: "Lucifer" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 11:14:40 AM |
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On Jan 13, 4:49 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
After typing that first question as you did you might want to refrain
from calling anyone "slow."
It is taking someone else's time and wasting it so the religious can
pray? How is that not both an imposition of public practise of
religion and an interference with education?
Consider it a lesson in tolerance, something this country disparately
needs on many fronts.
Hardly a lesson in tolerance. It is there to pander to some of the
nutters in your country, not to spread tolerance, after all, how would
they react if Muslims got down and started praying? I guess that would
suddenly become "disruptive prayer" even though it is no more
disru[ptive than any other prayer that demands that *everyone* make
way for it.
--
Lucifer the Unsubtle, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil
and General Purpose Igor
The Anti-Theist, BAAWA Lowly Evilmeister and tamer of the Demon Duck
of Doom
Convicted by Earthquack
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
.
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 11:31:11 AM |
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Lucifer wrote:
On Jan 13, 4:49 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
After typing that first question as you did you might want to refrain
from calling anyone "slow."
It is taking someone else's time and wasting it so the religious can
pray? How is that not both an imposition of public practise of
religion and an interference with education?
Consider it a lesson in tolerance, something this country disparately
needs on many fronts.
Hardly a lesson in tolerance. It is there to pander to some of the
nutters in your country, not to spread tolerance, after all, how would
they react if Muslims got down and started praying? I guess that would
suddenly become "disruptive prayer" even though it is no more
disru[ptive than any other prayer that demands that *everyone* make
way for it.
Wow, quite a rant. Nice of you demonstrate so clearly the need for
tolerance.
Whether it is a lesson in tolerance or just a method to get the kids to
calm down before their lessons it is up to the good people of Illinois
to best say, not you, not me, and not the courts. If there can be no
constitutional violation found (and there cannot be in this case, IMO)
then it doesn't matter how nutty you think they are. It's their state
and their schools. Stop trying to impose your will on others.
.
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| User: "3921 Dead" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 10:49:03 AM |
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On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:25:30 -0500, LibertySR <nosend@comcast.net>
wrote:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
There's a difference between preventing its practice in public, and
preventing it from using public facilities to indoctrinate a captive
audience of children.
--
What do you call a Republican with a conscience?
An ex-Republican.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8827 (From Yang, AthD (h.c)
"I simply can not believe this is what the Republican party has
become. I just can’t. It just makes me sick to think all those years
of supporting this party, and this is what it has become. Even if you
don’t like the S-Chip expansion, it is hard to deny what Republicans
are- a bunch of bitter, nasty, petty, snarling, sneering, vicious
thugs, peering through people’s windows so they can make fun of their
misfortune.
I’m registering Independent tomorrow."
Putsch: leading America to asymetric warfare since 2001
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
Zepps_News-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
Zepps_essays-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
.
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 11:01:54 AM |
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3921 Dead wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:25:30 -0500, LibertySR <nosend@comcast.net>
wrote:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
There's a difference between preventing its practice in public, and
preventing it from using public facilities to indoctrinate a captive
audience of children.
Pure hyperbole. How does this law promote indoctrination? Be specific.
.
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| User: "3921 Dead" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 12:09:20 PM |
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On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:01:54 -0500, LibertySR <nosend@comcast.net>
wrote:
3921 Dead wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:25:30 -0500, LibertySR <nosend@comcast.net>
wrote:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
There's a difference between preventing its practice in public, and
preventing it from using public facilities to indoctrinate a captive
audience of children.
Pure hyperbole. How does this law promote indoctrination? Be specific.
Well, let's see. In this case, we had the initial law, which simply
allowed a teacher to set aside a moment for reflection with students
who wished to participate. A pretty idiotic law in and of itself.
Then they added "Student Prayer' to the title? Why? No good reason.
Just bible bangers trying to assert a religious authority where none
existed.
The law then specified that this "silent prayer" "is not sponsored,
promoted or endorsed in any manner by the school or any school
employee"
Then they decided that public employees don't really have the right to
decide whether to conduct a moment of prayer or not, and changed the
law to say they SHALL do this, and that all students were required to
participate, and at that point, they crossed a line.
The funny thing is you can get your idiotic moment of silence back
just by reverting to the original law, but then, your interest isn't
in silent reflection, is it?
If your aim wasn't to promote religious indoctrination, you would be
perfectly satisfied with the original law. But you're not, are you?
--
What do you call a Republican with a conscience?
An ex-Republican.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8827 (From Yang, AthD (h.c)
"I simply can not believe this is what the Republican party has
become. I just can’t. It just makes me sick to think all those years
of supporting this party, and this is what it has become. Even if you
don’t like the S-Chip expansion, it is hard to deny what Republicans
are- a bunch of bitter, nasty, petty, snarling, sneering, vicious
thugs, peering through people’s windows so they can make fun of their
misfortune.
I’m registering Independent tomorrow."
Putsch: leading America to asymetric warfare since 2001
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
Zepps_News-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
Zepps_essays-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
.
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 11:11:52 AM |
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3921 Dead wrote:
<snip>
Pure hyperbole. How does this law promote indoctrination? Be specific.
Well, let's see. In this case, we had the initial law, which simply
allowed a teacher to set aside a moment for reflection with students
who wished to participate. A pretty idiotic law in and of itself.
Then they added "Student Prayer' to the title? Why? No good reason.
Just bible bangers trying to assert a religious authority where none
existed.
The law then specified that this "silent prayer" "is not sponsored,
promoted or endorsed in any manner by the school or any school
employee"
Read the old law again. It specifically mentioned prayer. The new law
permitted no greater expression of religion than the old one. It posed
no new requirement for the student that existed before. The particular
authority imposing the MOS is all that changed.
Then they decided that public employees don't really have the right to
decide whether to conduct a moment of prayer or not, and changed the
law to say they SHALL do this, and that all students were required to
participate, and at that point, they crossed a line.
The suit is not about harm to the teachers, it's about alleged harm to
the students. As stated above, the students were subject to a mandatory
MOS with the old law, too. There is not difference.
As for the teachers, they are required to do many things as a condition
of their employment. The law requires no religious activity on their
part. There is no harm there, either.
The funny thing is you can get your idiotic moment of silence back
just by reverting to the original law, but then, your interest isn't
in silent reflection, is it?
And that moment of prayer, too. So again, why is the law any different
that the original?
If your aim wasn't to promote religious indoctrination, you would be
perfectly satisfied with the original law. But you're not, are you?
--
In this case my aim is to support the rights of people to govern
themselves. The new law, IMO, does not violate the Constitution. The
court misapplied the vagueness doctrine to overturn the wishes of the
people of Illinois as expressed through their elected representatives.
The ruling, IMO, subverts the democratic process, and that should
trouble us all.
.
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 10:40:03 AM |
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On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:25:30 -0500, in alt.atheism
LibertySR <nosend@comcast.net> wrote in
<LradnWhkw4BhdBXanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com>:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
No one is trying to prevent its practice in public. The plaintiff only
asks that the government not impose its practice on students.
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 11:01:07 AM |
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Free Lunch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:25:30 -0500, in alt.atheism
LibertySR <nosend@comcast.net> wrote in
<LradnWhkw4BhdBXanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com>:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer, i.e. a
desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
No one is trying to prevent its practice in public. The plaintiff only
asks that the government not impose its practice on students.
What practice, silence?
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 11:48:11 AM |
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LibertySR wrote:
Free Lunch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:25:30 -0500, in alt.atheism LibertySR
<nosend@comcast.net> wrote in
<LradnWhkw4BhdBXanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com>:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer,
i.e. a desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of
religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
No one is trying to prevent its practice in public. The plaintiff only
asks that the government not impose its practice on students.
What practice, silence?
A "moment of silence" means a "prayer to God". But, you probably won't
get it; your apparent equivocating ***** inherent in the above
three-word sentence shows it. You think it's just a "moment of silence"
and nothing more. It's a lie and you're either knowingly doing it which
makes you dishonest or not, which makes you an incompetent *****.
:-)
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act *
* of the whole American people which declared that *
* their legislature should make no law respecting *
* an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the *
* free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of *
* separation between church and state." *
* --Thomas Jefferson, 1802 *
****************************************************
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 02:55:57 PM |
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DanielSan wrote:
LibertySR wrote:
Free Lunch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:25:30 -0500, in alt.atheism LibertySR
<nosend@comcast.net> wrote in
<LradnWhkw4BhdBXanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com>:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer,
i.e. a desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one
of religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
No one is trying to prevent its practice in public. The plaintiff only
asks that the government not impose its practice on students.
What practice, silence?
A "moment of silence" means a "prayer to God".
Main Entry: moment
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin momentum movement,
particle sufficient to turn the scales, moment, from movēre to move
Date:
14th century
1 a: a minute portion or point of time : instant b: a comparatively
brief period of time
Main Entry: of
Function:
preposition
Etymology:
Middle English, off, of, from Old English, adverb & preposition;
akin to Old High German aba off, away, Latin ab from, away, Greek apo
Date:
before 12th century
<snip>
8 a—used as a function word to indicate a particular example belonging
to the class denoted by the preceding noun <the city of Rome>
Main Entry: silence
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin silentium, from
silent-, silens
Date:
13th century
1: forbearance from speech or noise : muteness —often used
interjectionally2: absence of sound or noise : stillness <in the silence
of the night>
Sources: http://www.meriamwebster.com
Don't see anything about prayer or God in there; do you?
But, you probably won't
get it; your apparent equivocating ***** inherent in the above
three-word sentence shows it. You think it's just a "moment of silence"
and nothing more. It's a lie and you're either knowingly doing it which
makes you dishonest or not, which makes you an incompetent *****.
And you seem incapable of arguing without resorting to person attacks
(and not particularly clever ones at that).
The law does not mandate prayer, and none of your childish name-calling
changes that.
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| User: "Larry Hewitt" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 06:52:19 PM |
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"LibertySR" <nosend@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LradnZdnw4DAtBTanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com...
DanielSan wrote:
LibertySR wrote:
Free Lunch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:25:30 -0500, in alt.atheism LibertySR
<nosend@comcast.net> wrote in
<LradnWhkw4BhdBXanZ2dnUVZ_rPinZ2d@comcast.com>:
3921 Dead wrote:
Seems to me this more about banning a moment for optional prayer,
i.e. a desire to have freedom **from** religion, rather than one of
religion.
We do have the right to be free OF religion too, you know.
... yes, but not by preventing its practice in public.
No one is trying to prevent its practice in public. The plaintiff only
asks that the government not impose its practice on students.
What practice, silence?
A "moment of silence" means a "prayer to God".
Main Entry: moment
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin momentum movement,
particle sufficient to turn the scales, moment, from movere to move
Date:
14th century
1 a: a minute portion or point of time : instant b: a comparatively brief
period of time
Main Entry: of
Function:
preposition
Etymology:
Middle English, off, of, from Old English, adverb & preposition; akin
to Old High German aba off, away, Latin ab from, away, Greek apo
Date:
before 12th century
<snip>
8 a-used as a function word to indicate a particular example belonging to
the class denoted by the preceding noun <the city of Rome>
Main Entry: silence
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin silentium, from silent-,
silens
Date:
13th century
1: forbearance from speech or noise : muteness -often used
interjectionally2: absence of sound or noise : stillness <in the silence
of the night>
Sources: http://www.meriamwebster.com
Don't see anything about prayer or God in there; do you?
Yep.
Students are quiet anyway. The MOS stops all educational related
activity --- taking the roll, passing out papers, etc, and tells the eacher
to shut up.
The _only_ thing that, in htis society, supercede a teacher's authority in
the classroom is an attempt by the religionists to enforce prayer.
I'm stll waitnign for an explanation as to why this one particular moment of
the day is absiultely critical for prayer, and is so superior to every other
moment ofhte day that educational activities must stop.
Larry
But, you probably won't get it; your apparent equivocating *****
inherent in the above three-word sentence shows it. You think it's just
a "moment of silence" and nothing more. It's a lie and you're either
knowingly doing it which makes you dishonest or not, which makes you an
incompetent *****.
And you seem incapable of arguing without resorting to person attacks (and
not particularly clever ones at that).
The law does not mandate prayer, and none of your childish name-calling
changes that.
.
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| User: "Donna Metler" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
12 Jan 2008 07:31:41 PM |
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Having taught in schools with an MOS, I can tell you that, mostly, it serves
as a chance to get the group quiet after the chaos of morning recess and the
homeroom time when kids are coming in and out, and that, along with the flag
salute and morning announcements, does seem to lead to a better start of the
day. It's a ritual and a routine, and having it mandated by the state gives
it a little more weight-it's not the teacher, or even the principal saying
it's time to sit down and shut up-it's the state! And, for kids raised in
churches where they're encouraged to pray at school (the same ones which
often are encouraging their parents to pull them from heathen public schools
in the first place), GOD is saying they have to stop and be quiet! What an
authority figure!
I doubt many people pray-and, in fact, the only prayers that I've ever seen
openly occur are a few kids who regularly bow their heads and mutter a few
words under their breath before eating (and often that stops by the end of
Kindergarten. Usually these are kids who attended Christian preschools or
daycares where that was simply part of the routine and are said in the same
way a child would recite "Mary Had a Little Lamb", except often with less
comprehension) and the occasional Moslem 12 yr old who slips to the back of
the room and quietly faces Mecca for regular prayers.
If you're going to seriously pray, an MOS at school is about the worst place
for it. It's NOT serene-especially if you're the teacher, it's of variable
length depending on who's reading morning announcements that day, and
usually you probably wouldn't even make it through one "Our Father", let
alone the more drawn out intercessory prayer common to most Protestant
denominations.
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 11:02:49 AM |
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Larry Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
Yep.
Students are quiet anyway. The MOS stops all educational related
activity --- taking the roll, passing out papers, etc, and tells the eacher
to shut up.
Whether the MOS is an "educational activity" or not is not for you, me,
or the federal courts to decide. The good people of Illinois, through
there elected officials, get to decide what activities are worthy to be
conducted in their schools. The court must limit is assessment to the
constitutionality of the law, not the educational value of it. That was
my point about "purpose" earlier in this thread.
The _only_ thing that, in htis society, supercede a teacher's authority in
the classroom is an attempt by the religionists to enforce prayer.
You mean the teacher's authority to mandate a MOS or prayer (i.e. the
old law)?
Since when does the federal court get to decide how much or how little
authority a state gives its teachers?
I'm stll waitnign for an explanation as to why this one particular moment of
the day is absiultely critical for prayer, and is so superior to every other
moment ofhte day that educational activities must stop.
I don't know why it would be. But it doesn't matter to this case. The
timing of the moment is an issue for Illinois.
To overturn this law -- or any law enacted by the duly elected
representatives of the people -- there must be a constitutional reason.
That you think a particular moment to be better or worse than
another is no reason to overturn the democratic process.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 03:46:36 PM |
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LibertySR <nosend@comcast.net> wrote:
The _only_ thing that, in htis society, supercede a teacher's authority in
the classroom is an attempt by the religionists to enforce prayer.
You mean the teacher's authority to mandate a MOS or prayer (i.e. the
old law)?
Since when does the federal court get to decide how much or how little
authority a state gives its teachers?
When that authority runs afoul of the 14th amendment.
lojbab
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 08:13:50 PM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
LibertySR <nosend@comcast.net> wrote:
The _only_ thing that, in htis society, supercede a teacher's authority in
the classroom is an attempt by the religionists to enforce prayer.
You mean the teacher's authority to mandate a MOS or prayer (i.e. the
old law)?
Since when does the federal court get to decide how much or how little
authority a state gives its teachers?
When that authority runs afoul of the 14th amendment.
lojbab
It seems to be the opponents of this law are doing little more than
playing "constitutional roulette." Whatever passage the wheel stops on
is a sufficient reason to overturn this law. One might as well cite the
repeal of prohibition.
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 11:37:51 AM |
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On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:02:49 -0500, in alt.atheism
LibertySR <nosend@comcast.net> wrote in
<87Sdne6vWuqn2RfanZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d@comcast.com>:
Larry Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
Yep.
Students are quiet anyway. The MOS stops all educational related
activity --- taking the roll, passing out papers, etc, and tells the eacher
to shut up.
Whether the MOS is an "educational activity" or not is not for you, me,
or the federal courts to decide. The good people of Illinois, through
there elected officials, get to decide what activities are worthy to be
conducted in their schools. The court must limit is assessment to the
constitutionality of the law, not the educational value of it. That was
my point about "purpose" earlier in this thread.
No. Just because the pandering legislature claims there is a valid
secular purpose, that does not mean there is one. The panderers need to
explain what secular purpose there is in having a moment of silence.
The _only_ thing that, in htis society, supercede a teacher's authority in
the classroom is an attempt by the religionists to enforce prayer.
You mean the teacher's authority to mandate a MOS or prayer (i.e. the
old law)?
Since when does the federal court get to decide how much or how little
authority a state gives its teachers?
I'm stll waitnign for an explanation as to why this one particular moment of
the day is absiultely critical for prayer, and is so superior to every other
moment ofhte day that educational activities must stop.
I don't know why it would be. But it doesn't matter to this case. The
timing of the moment is an issue for Illinois.
To overturn this law -- or any law enacted by the duly elected
representatives of the people -- there must be a constitutional reason.
That you think a particular moment to be better or worse than
another is no reason to overturn the democratic process.
.
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 11:45:34 AM |
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Free Lunch wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:02:49 -0500, in alt.atheism
LibertySR <nosend@comcast.net> wrote in
<87Sdne6vWuqn2RfanZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d@comcast.com>:
Larry Hewitt wrote:
<snip>
Yep.
Students are quiet anyway. The MOS stops all educational related
activity --- taking the roll, passing out papers, etc, and tells the eacher
to shut up.
Whether the MOS is an "educational activity" or not is not for you, me,
or the federal courts to decide. The good people of Illinois, through
there elected officials, get to decide what activities are worthy to be
conducted in their schools. The court must limit is assessment to the
constitutionality of the law, not the educational value of it. That was
my point about "purpose" earlier in this thread.
No. Just because the pandering legislature claims there is a valid
secular purpose, that does not mean there is one. The panderers need to
explain what secular purpose there is in having a moment of silence.
First, even if they were "pandering," guess what? They can. There's no
Constitutional ban on that. If they're not acting in the best interests
of the people of Illinois then there's a process to fix that, elections.
Second, the law does provide the purpose:
"In order that the right of every student to the free exercise of
religion is guaranteed within the public schools and that each student
has the right to not be subject to pressure from the State either to
engage in or to refrain from religious observation on public school grounds"
.
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| User: "Josh Rosenbluth" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 06:39:12 PM |
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On Jan 13, 12:45=A0pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
Free Lunch wrote:
No. Just because the pandering legislature claims there is a valid
secular purpose, that does not mean there is one. The panderers need to
explain what secular purpose there is in having a moment of silence.
Second, the law does provide the purpose:
"In order that the right of every student to the free exercise of
religion is guaranteed within the public schools and that each student
has the right to not be subject to pressure from the State either to
engage in or to refrain from religious observation on public school ground=
s"
That's not a secular purpose. That's a noble purpose already provided
for by the original law. Additionally, the original law has the
secular purpose of allowing students to reflect on their daily
activities. But, the amendmed law (both text and title) serve what
purpose?
Josh Rosenbluth
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| User: "LibertySR" |
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| Title: Re: 14 yr old stops Ill. Moment of Silence Law |
13 Jan 2008 08:12:01 PM |
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Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
On Jan 13, 12:45 pm, LibertySR <nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
Free Lunch wrote:
No. Just because the pandering legislature claims there is a valid
secular purpose, that does not mean there is one. The panderers need to
explain what secular purpose there is in having a moment of silence.
Second, the law does provide the purpose:
"In order that the right of every student to the free exercise of
religion is guaranteed within the public schools and that each student
has the right to not be subject to pressure from the State either to
engage in or to refrain from religious observation on public school grounds"
That's not a secular purpose. That's a noble purpose already provided
for by the original law.
No, it is not. It is only provided at the discretion of a teacher.
That is no "guarantee."
Additionally, the original law has the
secular purpose of allowing students to reflect on their daily
activities. But, the amendmed law (both text and title) serve what
purpose?
The same. Reflection even gets top billing in the new law's title ;-)
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