1995 #2
Message #8811 of 8820
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
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Subject: Re: Prayer in school? Never been illegal
From: me
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 17:50:27 GMT
sailor@ici.net (Captain Kidd) wrote:
This is stunning. Mr. Kidd, you really ought to know a little bit
about a subject before you undertake to discourse upon it. Harvard
College was founded in 1636, and by the time the founding fathers
were ready for higher education, it had been joined by Yale, Princeton,
William and Mary, and several other schools. Most large towns in
New England had "social libraries," one of which was founded by
Benjamin Franklin in Philadelphia in the 1730s. In addition, almost
every upper-class home contained a large private library.
Well not being one to "talk without knowing at least a little"..
Very little about this particular subject. I wonder why you didn't
respond to my particular response tp you, especially since I offered
documented evidence concerning Jefferson and Madison.
Jefferson was already well schooled in the classics, etc from his
family's private library and from private tutoring before he entered
William & Mary in 1760. William & Mary did not just start up that year
or a year or two earlier.
Madison entered Princeton (would later be named Princeton ) a few
years later.
I did
the net thingy... http to Library of Congress.. did the search for
"Libraries" and lo and behold, they are list be states... DID a search
of ALL of the states that had signers to the Declaration of
Independence...NH-MA-RI-CT-NY-NJ-PA-DE-MR-VA-NC-SC&GA !
NH - Historical Society (established before library) dates from 1756
MA - You were right... 1636 ESTABLSHED....
RI - Brown - John Hay Library 1763
The above does not constitute much of a research effort.
Consider the following:
"The American colonists were familiar with the civility literature as
well as the classical works on the conduct of life it drew upon and
recommended. Tutors and schoolmasters in both New England and Virginia
taught Cicero and Quintilian as handbooks of style and in the process
conveyed heavy draughts of Roman virtue; and libraries in all the
colonies proffered images of man via Plato, Aristole, Plutarch, Senca,
Homer, Virgil, and Ovid.More's UTOPIA
was widely known, as was Machiavelli's THE PRINCE, Castiglione's THE
COURTIER, and Sidney's ARCADIA."
(American Education The Colonial Experience, 1607-1783, by Lawrence A
Cremin Vol I page 68)
(BTW the above is referring to the time period of 1607-1689)
"North America was colonized during the time the first phase of
Europe's age of print, the initial two-hundred-year period after
Gutenburg, when a reading public gradually came into being that for
the first time in history was not confined to the clerisy orthe
aristoracy. 'Never in any age were books more sought for and better
esteemed.' wrote a chronicler in 1590."
(Same Source as listed above, page 28)
Those who came to America during the 1600's and early 1700's brought
their books with them. Books were soon being written, printed and
published in America, and books were ordered from Europe constantly.
"There is ample indication of widespread possession of books by the
colonists, though small libraries were the rule; and the evidence in
letters, diaries, wills, and inventories suggests these books were
both valued and read."
(Same source as listed above page 29) Again the time period being
covered here is between 1607-1683
There is a vast amount of information I could quote from in just this
one reference source alone, but the above is enough to show your
original claim is false. I would recommend this two volume set of
books for you to read.
and on and on and on! LOOK at the dates !!!!! Only Harvard in the
above sample was open long enough, by 1776, to have any volume of
books..
Check what I quoted above, libraries, while usually small, were common
throughout the colonies by 1683. In addition private libraries were
quite common as also pointed out above. How long do you think it takes
to create a library when a college opens?
Btw what is the date for William & Mary, Princeton, which at that time
would have been called the College of New Jersey? How about Yale?
William & Mary claims to be the oldest College in America, though in
it's earliest years it was not accredited, so Harvard might have got
in ahead of it accreditation wise.
and they DID NOT let them out to people from out of state
either! So we have a problem here, don't we?
No, you have the problem. I haven't even mentioned how many "named"
folks of the various colonies who attened college at Cambridge, etc
during the late 1600's and early 1700's, many did go back to England,
france, etc to attend college and then returned. Of course, when they
returned they too brought books back with them.
You and the other
person taking the same position as you, state that books were around,
works could be widely read, etc, etc.. I say WHERE WERE THEY, and HOW
DID THEY GET THEM?
Am I that other person? If so kindly respond directly to me, I do not
always take the same direction someone else would.
As to where and how, I have answered that already. Now, where is your
evidence to support your claims that they only had the Bible to read?
The dates of the formation of the libraries (not
the stocking of them, just the formation) does NOT show you to be
right, but tends to support my position that those "works" you talk
about were, indeed, rare and hard to find !
Not at all, you list a few a couple dates of colleges apparently
claiming that these were the only libraries in the colonies, which is
not true, completely overlooking all other sources of books. That
little hunt you did would not list private libraries, nor small public
libraries that were small and didn't rate a college classification.
I didn't even begin to list all the evidence that is contained in just
that one reference book, just a couple of short samples.
Now if you want I could
list the dates for the other states, like DE - NC - SC - GA - and show
you that libraries were not even established by the signing of the
DOI.
By all means please do. also qualify your definition of libraries.
Exactly what sort of libraries would be contained on that list?
Now, that is part of my "edu bigotry" as you put it... Somewhere
along the line, a history writer, did not like the fact that what most
of the people at the time read, was the Bible, and that a large amount
of their values were formed by it, and then into the DOI and
Constitution, so that writers wrote "they read the
works.............." and it was just accepted as fact !
Not accepted as fact. it was well established. The largest source of
information for what life was like in that time period in the colonies
is diaries, letters, and the like as listed in one of my quotes, and
it is in these items that various books are referred to, named, etc.
In addition, the person doing the writing frequently quotes passages
from these various books, and writes of things they couldn't possibly
know about unless they had read of them and studied them.
The fact remains, you cannot point to any single line contained in the
Constitution of these Untied States and "prove" it came from the
Bible, nor can you point to a single word spoken in debate at the
Constitutional Convention and show it came from the Bible.
No questions asked, like: "where did they get them", "were there
libraries then", "could they 'check out' a book if there were", "how
long of a HORSEBACK ride was it to the read one", "did 'they' make the
trip", etc...
None of the above applies to private libraries, and most if not all of
the so called upper class of that time period would have had private
libraries.
For the "common man" I will say once again printing presses existed in
this country books were written and published, books common in Europe
were also published and or printed in this country for sale in this
country. Where did all these Bibles you speak of come from? Well all
other books came from the same places and were aquired in the same
manners.
Well I asked...... seems like maybe a few did read what
you state they read, but the VAST MAJORITY did NOT, and did NOT have
access to them... Now if you can prove me wrong.. I would like to see
on what basis you do it.... ! Fair enuff?
You can't "prove" anything to anyone who isn't open to seeing the
validity of what you are saying. Go to any good library, a university
library would be best, take with you the list of the men who signed
the Constitution. Look up any and all writings of these men, read
those writings and then ask yourself this question, "Are these the
writings and thoughts of men who have only read the Bible?"
If you answer that question to yourself honestly you will have to say
no. Those 39 men in all probability had read the Bible at some point,
but it will be quite clear that they had also had a tremendous
exposure to a lot of other forms of thought as well.
Well, I do like to start close as possible to the beginning of
anything I debate... and I will remind you... Harvard's library was
started ONLY 16 years after 1620 ! so how far out is my "historical
perspective"? HUH?
16 years after 1620? That would be 1636, still 150 years or so before
the constitution, etc, you mean to tell me that in 150 years vast
numbers of books could not have been obtained? As to your historical
perspective, I do recall you listed the NINA as being associated with
the Pilgrims, that says it all.
By the late eighteenth century, America was in the evil grip of
something called the Enlightment, which greatly reduced the hold
or religious dogma on the populace. I don't have the exact figures
close at hand--perhaps someone else can supply them--but at the time
of the revolution, something less than a quarter of the American people
was affiliated with any church.
DEFINE your "late" above ! was it pre-1776 or later?
Yes it was.
: >The authors of the Constitution were, for the most part, highly
educated
: >men, acquainted not only with the Bible but with the classics,
and with
: >the intellectual writings of their contemporaries. The idea that
the
: >Bible was the only book any of them had ever read just isn't true.
ONLY? Not my position, BUT I do state that it was the ONLY book that
they all read..... That everyone had in the home.. and the "works" you
state that they read, were hard to find, and difficult to be able to
read !
Not true. Just one simple statement would demolish that, most of these
men were lawyers, you don't learn law by reading just the bible, not
even in that time period. perhaps all had read the bible, but the
proves nothing, and you won't find any bibical quotes in the Constitution.
Do you really think there were no books in 1755, Captain? Please
study a little history--even junior high school level will do the
trick--and get back to me, okay?
"no books".... no.. there were "some", but they were on a par with
having a large MainFrame computer in your home today... Are they
around, sure, can you buy one, sure, but how many main frames do you
see in homes! Can you go and "use" one? sure... SAME situation with
"works" and "books" in 1750 !!!!
Produce your evidence that your claim is true, you saying it doesn't
make it so. Documented evidence that is.
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Subject: Re: Prayer in school? Never been illegal
From: me
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:13:27 GMT
kchildre@uccs.jpl.nasa.gov (Ken Childress) wrote:
In article <4ahh50$hv4@news.infi.net>, I wrote
sailor@ici.net (Captain Kidd) wrote:
On 7 Dec 1995 16:45:10 -0500, (william c
anderson) wrote:
I beg to differ with you, but you are in error. First things first,
in 1776
only 17 percent of the white population of what was to become known
as the
United States were "Churched." That doesn't support your claim that
religion played a HUGE part in everyday life. It might for some, but
that
was not universal among all people of that time.
This 17% figure doesn't really support your contention that religion
didn't play a significant part in everyday life. What evidence to you
have to support that contention? Your figure only says to me that 17%
went to church. Distances, etc. could have played a large part in that
figure.
Well first of all, nice to see you back. Are you ready to deal with
those false quotes you posted that you claim was made by Madison yet?
I do think that that old business ought to be cleared up before we go
on to any new business. Lex Talioness, did come forward and
acknowledge that the quotes were false, he even went so far as to
discover some others he had posted were also false. I thought that was
mighty nice of him, and it helped set the record straight for all
those who read along but never post or comment themselves.
As to the 17 percent, that is actually a high figure of several I
could have used. I have several sources and the figures vary between
them, but all are much lower than the 17 percent I chose to use.
I think the rest of my post added additional information to back up
the statement I made, but it was deleted. But rest assured, I do have
documentation to back up my claims and as soon as we settle the old
business, I will be happy to share it with you.
BTW, not attending church because of weather, distances, etc were
taken into account.
In addition I said that it playing a HUGE part in everyday life was
not universal, it might for some but not for all, or even the majority
of peoples.
The person making the original claim was making a generalization,
applying it universally, and the evidence does not support that.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
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