1995 #3
Message #8816 of 8820
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
###new###To:
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,a\
lt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.pol\
itics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.econ\
omics,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.g\
-gordon-liddy,alt.society.conservatism
Subject: Re: Prayer in school? Never been illegal
From: me
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:59:44 GMT
sailor@ici.net (Captain Kidd) wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 1995 00:30:22 GMT, (Voltaire)
wrote:
Ever heard of William and Mary or Princeton Mr. Kidd?
Sure have.. have you heard of "colonial transportation" ? What did
they do, log on to the library with their computers? Zip over in their
BMWs?..... Or did the Indians carry them to the library on their
shoulders? 1750 BACK... there were no "roads", only trails, and many
not safe or even passable in winter and spring....
William & Mary is celebrating it's 300th anniversary, so that means it has
been in operation since the 1690's. Thomas Jefferson attended William &
Mary in 1760. Jefferson was from the western part of Virginia. Now somehow
he managed to get from his home to the school, attend the school, and
graduate from the school. James Madison, born some ten years or so after
Jefferson, and who also lived in the western part of Virginia, not far
from Jefferson, decided not to go to William & Mary, but instead attended
the
College of New Jersey (Later known as Princeton) so he somehow managed to
get from the western part of Virginia to New Jersey, enroll in the school,
attend and graduate. In short, the answer to your comments is at least as
far as going to school is concerned, they enrolled and either lived at the
school or in the town the school was located in while they attended.
Horseback was the
only sure way of getting anywhere... so a trek from Left Overshoe, 50
miles away from any library, was a two day trip by horse! And you are
saying that they made that trip, just to check out a library book? Is
that what you are saying?
Well, I asked once before, how did they get these bibles you keep talking
about? They got other types of books in the same manner. In addtion there
was mail delivery in some form or fashion during the time period you speak
of. Someone had to post it and pick up new mail. In addition, most people
lived rather close to settlements and towns. You making the types of
arguments that people would have made to the Wright brothers when
trying to
"prove" to those two hardy individual types that machines and people could
not fly, it would have been impossible.
The facts are, like it or not, these people did have access to a great
many
other books besides the bible, had access to and read.
Come on, let's get a little historical
reality into this !
That would be something new for you.
Not just how many libraries there were (damn few),
but the method of travel, how did they avail themselves to these
libraries? Or are you saying that ONLY those that lived in BIG
towns/cities could get a book to read?
Answer your own question, how many libraries were there? Most of the
houiseholds of the upper class had their own private libraries. Mandatory
public school existed in Mass. from the mid to late 1600's therefore there
had to be books for students to read and study, and school consisted
of not
just reading the bible, it also included study of languages and classical
writings, as well as math etc.
Public schools existed in Charlestion S.C. from the mid to late 1600's.
Many people lived within close distance to settlements and towns.
If so, then what did the
signers from NH, NC, SC, GA, and other states do to read what you
state they read? Mail you say? Sure about that? What date was the
Mail Service started, and what areas did it cover?
There was not a single signer of the DOI that was not well educated,
if not
in this country, then abroad. Mail service is not needed to have a flow of
mail, packets of mail were carreid by individuals, ships coaches, etc.
There is ample evidence that people wrote back and forth to each other
both
within the limits of the boundaries of this nation and between countries.
Letters exist from that time period.
I refuse to accept the blanket statement "they read............, and
.......................and............. etc"... I want to know how
Yes, that is the whole point, you refuse to accept the facts. it is far
more important tp you to maintain your myth and fantasy.
they got those books or works, if they were available to them, if so
how, when they were read (it was not by night with a electric lamp) !
What did they do during daylight hours? Let's explore the questions,
to see if YOUR statement, and the statements of others, about the
reading material of the Founding Fathers are true, or even possible,
instead of just accepting what someone wrote... as FACT !
The facts are established, you of course do not have to accept them. You
not acceptiing them will not change them. You need only to read some
of the
writings of any of the Founders to know they had a far better education
than just a Bibical education. That is the only facts that are needed.
Where they got the books and this education, how they managed to find time
to study is all immaterial, they did it, thats all that matters.
I will say this again..... http to the Library of Congress... look at
the dates SOME universities and colleges were founded, then look at
the dates that libraries were established.....
Why only some, why not all of them, and don't forget to account for those
who studied abroad.
Then tell me where
they got those works to read.. PRIOR TO 1750 !!! Look at the dates!
I agree there were a FEW, very few, libraries established prior to
1750.. but so few that most of the signers of the Declaration of
Independence (Founding Fathers) had no access to them !
Another flaw in your thinking, the signers of the DOI are not the only men
considered to be the Founding Fathers, in fact the men who did the
Constitution and Bill of Rights are more often called Founders than the
former group.
"Every educated man in the 1700's read the classical writings of Greek and
Roman antiquity. The Founding Fathers frequently referred to the classics
in their writings, and often used greek and Roman pseudonyms to sign their
letters. Some, such as Samuel Adams, saw in old Roman republican
austerity,
a picture of what America was or should be."
(CHRISTIANITY AHD THE CONSTITUTION, The Faith Of Our Founding Fathers, by
John Eidsmoe, page 70)
Now the above author is taking a position close to yours, that being that
this was founded as a Christian Nation, and that there is no separation of
church and state. However, unlike you, he is in better touch with reality
in that he knew and acknowledges that the Founders were very well
educated.
In fact he includes a study in his book that breaks down the men most
quoted by these Founders in their own personal writings. There are 36 men
listed on his list of those most quoted, men such as Locke, Montesquieu,
Shakespeare, Hobbs, plato, Voltaire, Coke, Cicero, and so on.
None of the above men are to be found in the Bible, nor are any of the
others on his list. You are so out of touch with actual historical fact it
is unreal.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
