Uzytkownik "lizzard woman" <kimosabeRMOVE@shaw.ca> napisal w wiadomosci
news:TlTQd.410591$Xk.65490@pd7tw3no...

"Grinder" <grinder2112@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108606969.467482.206250@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Grinder wrote:
|
| >> Do you know of *any* "original" autograph that has
| >> 2 Chronicles 36:9 saying that Jehoiachin was 18
| >> when his reign began? If so, can you give me
| >> enough of a citation so that I might find it as
| >> well?
|
| Jason Gastrich wrote:
|
| > Yes. At the very least, some Hebrew manuscripts,
|
| Can you tell me *which* manuscripts (or their reproductions) you have
| seen, such that I might find them for myself? Have you *actually

| a manuscript, it's facsimile or an interlinear translation of such a
| manuscript?
|
| > the Syriac,
|
| I thought "The Syriac" was an Aramaic version of the New Testament.
| Does it also contain 2 Chronicles?
|
| > and the Septuagint.
|
| I've found this interlinear for the Septuagint, where it says "8 years
| old":
|
|

|
| Are there some variations in this verse amongst different copies of

| Septuagint?
|
| I can't stress this enough, so I'll mention it again, what manuscript
| did *you see* that had 2 Chronicles 36:9 saying 18 years old, and what
| is a *specific citation* for that manuscript?


Grinder, I'll bet dollars to donuts Gastrich was paraphrasing this post

from

"Frank G"on page 10 of the thread:

Frank G writes:

"The simple answer to these queries is that a copyist, not an inspired
writer, made these mistakes. In the case of Ahaziah, a copyist simply

wrote

twenty instead of forty, and in Jehoiachin's situation (2 Chronicles

36:9),

the scribe just omitted a ten, which made Jehoiachin eight instead of
eighteen. This does not mean the Bible had errors in the original
manuscripts, but it does indicate that minor scribal errors have slipped
into some copies of the Bible. [If you have ever seen the Hebrew

you will notice that the Hebrew letters (which were used for numbers)

could

be confused quite easily.] Supporting this answer to the "number

in Chronicles are various ancient manuscripts such as the Syriac, the
Arabic, at least one Hebrew manuscript, and a few of the Septuagint
manuscripts-all of which contain the correct ages for these kings in 2
Chronicles (22 and 18 rather than 42 and 8). Based upon this evidence,

from the fact that the ages of Ahaziah and Jehoiachin given in the
Massoretic text of Chronicles are incorrect, the translators of the NIV
decided to translate 2 Chronicles 22:2 and 36:9 as "twenty-two" and
"eighteen" rather than the way most other English versions of the Bible

read

("forty-two" and "eight").

http://www.apologeticspress.org/abdiscr/abdiscr24.html"


Notice specifically the part: "Supporting this answer to the "number
problems" in Chronicles are various ancient manuscripts such as the

Syriac,

the Arabic, at least one Hebrew manuscript, and a few of the Septuagint
manuscripts-all of which contain the correct ages for these kings in 2
Chronicles (22 and 18 rather than 42 and 8)."

I think Gastrich cribbed and paraphrased this part in his response in

newsgroup.


--
sharon, aa #2153
"(of creationism) ... Only apocryphal tales told by goat herders around

the

campfire after it became too dark to continue to molest their

TvG (Rec.Equestrian, 2003)
"Easy -- he's the Right Reverend Admiral Jason Gastrich, BSc, MSc, DVM,

ThD,

PhD, MD, JD, Esq, US Navy (Ret). If the bible happened to put things in

the

wrong order, well, our boy the Doctor will just fix it right up

Rightshu (IIDB, 2004)

A further article which is interesting on the topic is here:
http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/8or18.html

and reads:

How Old Was Jehoiachin, 8 or 18?

2 Chronicles 36:9

"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned

months and ten days."

2 Kings 24:8

"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned

Jerusalem three months."

This particular "contradiction" is frequently brought up and thrown in the
face of the Christian as proof that the Holy Bible is not the inspired

of God. Unfortunately, many Christian websites tell the curious and the
skeptics there are several scribal errors in their bibles.

Apologetics Press -"Even though it is possible to know the ages of Ahaziah
and Jehoiachin when they began their respective reigns in Judah, the ages

these two kings in Chronicles are incorrect.

In Gleason Archer's "Encyclopedia of Biblical Difficulties," the author
writes, "obviously there has been a textual error committed by the

Another book, "When Critics Ask," also deals with such problems. Norman
Geisler and Thomas Howe, the authors, give the same answer to the dilemma.
They write, "This is probably a copyist error.

A man who writes for Insight Magazine who calls himself Pastor Steve has
this to say to a skeptic who writes to him. " But I'm guessing that the
"contradiction" you're pointing out is Jehoiachin's age when he became

The King James Version says "eight years" in 2 Chronicles 36:9 and

years" in 2 Kings 24:8, 9. I usually prefer the New International Version,
though, which takes into account ancient manuscripts found since the King
James Version was written. The NIV includes with 2 Chronicles 36:9 a
footnote explaining that most Hebrew manuscripts record the word "eight,"
but one Hebrew manuscript and some Septuagint and Syriac manuscripts

"eighteen."

The Bible isn't a manuscript free of all typos. Since God's chosen to
communicate His Word through mistake-making humans, there are "errors" or
"contradictions." What's amazing to me is how much consistency there

is."

Well, what is amazing to me, Pastor Steve, is that this muddled-minded
response by a modern version proponent would probably be considered quite
sound and charitable by most Christians today.

Notice pastor Steve has no final authority. He "usually prefers" the NIV.
His information is wrong about the ancient manuscripts. The King James
translators knew all about the Septuagint and the Syriac versions. "One"
Hebrew manuscript, unidentified by the way, can say almost anything.

Does Pastor Steve know that the NIV unnecessarily departs from the Hebrew
masoretic text over 80 times in the Old Testament alone? "The Bible isn't
free of typos" ?!?. Has it ever occurred to Steve that if we can't trust

numbers in the Bible, how can we be sure about the words that are written
between the numbers? When does God start telling the truth?

As for Pastor Steve's logic in coming to the conclusion there must be

because God is using mistake making men, did it ever occur to Steve that

also used fallible, sinful men like Moses, David, Solomon, Peter, Paul and
John to give us His words in the first place?

I firmly believe the King James Bible is God's preserved, pure, perfect

inspired words in the English language and there are no scribal errors in

at all.

Israel's scribes are legendary when it comes to the precision by which

wrote and kept the scriptures. Bernard Ramm speaks of the accuracy of the
Biblical manuscripts, "Jews preserved them as no other manuscripts have

preserved. They kept tabs on every letter, syllable, word, paragraph."

never copied from memory but always looked at each word before writing. If
there were one mistake on a page, they started over with a new copy. God

promised to preserve every word. Not one jot nor tittle will pass from the
law till all be fulfilled.

We in modern times need to give more credit to the intelligence and

skills of the Hebrew scribes. There are many other "problems" like this

throughout the histories of Israel's kings. To suggest all of them are
copyist errors is almost non-sensical in light of the Hebrew scribal
techniques, yet that is exactly what the majority of biblical scholars in
our day do.

It is clear that the Hebrew Masoretic text says "8 years old" in 2
Chronicles 36:9. The following versions read 8 and not 18. The Hebrew
translations of 1917, 1936, and the 1998 Complete Jewish Bible

the Hebrew Names Version, Wycliffe 1395, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible
1568, the Geneva Bible 1599, KJB, NKJV, Revised Version, American Standard
Version, NASB, RSV, NRSV, the 2001 ESV, NEB 1970, Latin Vulgate, Spanish
Reina Valera, Italian Diodati, French Louis Segond, Douay, Webster's 1833,
and Third Millenium Bible.

The versions that have rejected the Hebrew text and followed SOME

versions (some of them say 8 while others have 18), and the Syriac are the
NIV, Darby's, New Century Version, Bible in Basic English 1961, the brand
new Holman Standard, The Message, and the Living Translation.

The NIV has rejected the Hebrew text over 80 times, while the NASB has

40 times. The NKJV departs at least 10 times that I have found so far. The
King James Bible is the only one that is based solely on the Hebrew
Masoretic text.

So, how do we reconcile the apparent contradiction between 8 and 18? Here
are the three best possible explanations I have come across without

the text of the King James Bible.

Number 1

The Geneva Bible notes: "36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began
to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he

that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.That is, he began his reign

eight years old, and reigned ten years when his father was alive, and

his father's death, which was in his eighteenth year, he reigned alone

months and ten days."

During a monarchy a king would make a son co-regent with him while he was
still alive. This practice would assure the king's favored son, (usually

first-born of the favored wife), as being the next king. Some of the kings
had more than one wife, and thus several sons from these wives. To prevent
civil war and fighting among the family, he would appoint the selected son
as co-regent, so when he died, the co-regent son would be in place to take
over completely. An example of this is seen in the life of David. In 1

1 and 2, David in his dying days, called Solomon before him and had the

priest and the prophet Nathan anoint him before the people. David, though

was still king, made his son Solomon co-regent. In 2 Kings 24:8, the
biblical record is giving the age of Jehoiachin as 18. The cross reference
of "8 years old" in 2 Chronicles 36:9 could be his age when he was made

co-regent with his father.

Number 2

Another way of looking at this passage is to view the pronoun "he" in the
phrase "Jehoiachin was eight years old when 'he' began to reign", as
referring to his father Jehoiakim spoken of in verses 4 - 8. Only in the 2
Chronicles passage is there an antecedent in the previous verse referring

his father.

"Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and his abominations which he did,
and that which was found in him, behold, they are written in the book of

kings of Israel and Judah: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.
Jehoiachin was eight years old when he ( Jehoiakim - his father ) began to
reign, and he ( Jehoiachin- his son) reigned three months and ten days."

passage in 2 Kings 24:8 where it says Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he
began to reign has no such antecedent .

The very next verse here in Chronicles contains a similar pronoun "his"

can be misleading. In fact the NKJV, NIV and NASB have all changed or

to the Hebrew text in some way, though they all differ from each other.

The Hebrew text and the KJB say in verse 10: "And when the year was

king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly
vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah, HIS brother king over
Judah and Jerusalem."

Do the words "HIS brother" refer back to Nebuchadnezzar, so it would be
Nebuchadnezzar's brother, or do they refer to the unnamed Jehoichin? They
refer to Jehoichin, and so his brother (blood relative) Zedekiah was made
king. The Hebrew word here is # 251 awkh, brother as found also in verse 4
twice.

The NKJV adds to the Hebrew text by saying; "made Zedekiah, JEHOIAKIM'S
brother, king over Judah and Jerusalem." Then it has a footnote telling us
the Hebrew literally reads "his".

The NIV changed it to : "and he made JEHOIACHIN'S UNCLE, Zedekiah king..."

While the NASB has "he made HIS KINSMAN Zedekiah king..."

Here the word "his" does not refer to Nebuchadnezzar but rather to
Jehoiachin. We thus need to look at the context and the rest of the Bible

determine whom the "he" or "his" refers to.

Jehoiachin's father Jehoiakim reigned 11 years in Jerusalem. 2 Chronicles
36: 5 "Jehoiakim was twenty and five years old when he began to reign, and
he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in

sight of the LORD his God."

Numbers are often rounded and any part of a year may be counted or not
depending on the intent of the writer. An example in this is found in the
two passages we are considering. In Chronicles we are told Jehoiachin
reigned 3 months and ten days , but in Kings that he reigned three months.

There is no real discrepancy. If you tell me you are 35 years old, and you
tell another you are 35 years and 6 months old, we will not accuse you of
being a liar.

Another example of a period of 6 months making a change of a full year is
recorded in 2 Kings 15: 8 and 13. In the 38th year of king Azariah,
Zachariah began to reign in Israel. He reigned only 6 months and was

Then in the 39th year of Azariah (Uzziah - same king, different name)
Shallum began to reign for one month. Only 6 months had passed but the
numbering changed from the 38th to the 39th year of Azariah, king of

In this same chapter of 2 Kings 15 comparing verses 17 and 23 we see a
period of ten years being counted as eleven years when the next king

to reign.

2 Kings 15:17 and 23

"In the 39th year of Azariah king of Judah began Menahem the son of Gadi

reign over Israel, and reigned 10 years in Samaria."

Verses 22, 23 "And Menahem slept with his fathers; and Pekahiah his son
reigned in his stead. In the 50th year of Azariah king of Judah Pekahiah
began to reign."

Menahem begins to reign in the 39th year of Azariah, reigns 10 years, then
Pekahiah begins to reign 10 years later but it is counted as Azariah's

year.

This second view suggests that Jehoiachin was eight years old when his
father Jehoiakim began to reign, and that he was 18 years old when he
himself began to reign for only about three months.

If Jehoiachin were 8 years and a month old when his father Jehoiakim began
to reign and he reigned for something like 10 years and 9 months, this

be counted as 11 years, yet when his son Jehoiakim began to reign, he

still be physically only 18 years old. He would be 2 months shy of his 19
birthday.

This explanation may be wrong or it may be correct. I offer it as a

explanation of what happened. This explanation is quite possible and it
keeps the Hebrew reading and the King James Bible reading intact with no
contradiction.

Number 3 - This explanation has a lot to recommend it. It is provided by

Floyd Nolen Jones.

6. JEHOIACHIN (JECONIAH) - EIGHT OR EIGHTEEN

Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned

Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter

Elnathan of Jerusalem (II Ki.24:8).

Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned

months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the
sight of the LORD (II Chr.36:9).

The solution offered, and that preferred by this author in light of that
which follows, is that Josiah must have anointed Jehoiachin, his grandson,
to succeed him just prior to his encounter with Pharaoh Neco.

Realizing that his sons were wicked, godly Josiah must have hoped that his
grandson Jehoiachin (Jeconiah), though only eight years old at the time,
would turn out better. As Josiah himself was but eight when he began to
reign, he would have few qualms in placing so young a child upon the

of Judah. Josiah fully realized that he might not return from this

with the Egyptians.

In the first place, he was going up against a much larger contingency.
Secondly, it had been prophesied that he would die young and also prior to
the judgment that God would send upon the Kingdom of Judah (II Ki.22, II
Chr.34). Having already reigned thirty-one years, Josiah was now about 39
years of age. Thus he knew that his time was very possibly at hand.

The only Biblical and legal way that a grandson etc., could be made to
inherit the throne while his father and uncles were still alive was that

adoption to the status of a full son. (See Gen.48 where Joseph's sons,
Ephraim and Manasseh, are placed as sons, adopted by Jacob [vs.5, cp.

and 16 for the ritual] so that they could become equal heirs with his

sons.) It is the contention of this writer that Josiah did adopt and name

his successor young Jehoiachin (Jeconiah) just prior to departing for his
fatal encounter with Neco at Megiddo. Moreover, this scenario enjoys
Scriptural corroboration:

"And Josiah begat Jeconiah and his brethern, about the time they were
carried away to Babylon:" (Mat.1:11).

This Scripture occurs in Matthew's roll of Christ Jesus' ancestors.
Beginning with David and Solomon at the sixth verse, it continues through
the eleventh listing the kings of Judah in His lineage. Verse eleven

that Josiah begat Jeconiah (Jehoiachin being his "throne" name) though he
was not his son. Although in a larger Biblical sense, it is permissible to
speak of "begetting" descendants beyond the generation of one's own
offspring, the context of this "begetting" would have occurred at the time
of the adoption. The truth of this is clearly seen in that which follows:
"and his brothers".

Now this is indeed very strange, for the allusion is clearly to Josiah's
sons and as such, are Jehoiachin's uncles and father -- unless he had been
adopted. Then and only then could it be said that Josiah's sons are
Jehoiachin's brothers! Lest there remain any reservations, consider:

"And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him
(Jehoiachin, see vs.9) to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of
the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem" (II
Chr.36:10). Again, how can Zedekiah be Jehoiachin's brother? Only by his
being adopted to full sonship.

However the people of the land did not abide by Josiah's decision, placing
instead Josiah's twentythree year old son Jehoahaz (not his eldest, II
Ki.23:36) on the throne (II Ki.23:30). After reigning but three months,
Jehoahaz was removed by Pharaoh Neco and carried prisoner to Egypt where

died. Placing the land under tribute, Neco installed Jehoahaz's older
brother Jehoiakim (father of Jehoiachin) as his vassal on the throne of
Judah (II Ki.23:33-37) where he reigned eleven years.

Of course, this does not demand that he reigned eleven years to the very
day. For example, if he reigned ten years and three months, that would
qualify as being "in his eleventh year". Thus, whereby Jehoiachin

was anointed to be King when but a child (II Chr.36:9), he did not

occupy the throne until he was eighteen years of age (II Ki.24:8-12) ^ a
span of eleven years when numbered inclusively.

Moreover, Chronicles is stating the situation as viewed from the
priest's/Temple's/God's perspective whereas the Book of Kings is

it from the historical political/throne view.

The "discrepancy" or "scribal error" between II Kings 24:8 and II

36:9 is thus resolved. The verses are seen to signify that Jehoiachin's
first year upon the throne would have been his "year of accession"; hence

would have been eight during his first official year of reign (Judaic

ofreckoning). Thus II Kings 24:8, II Chronicles 36:9, and Matthew 1:11.
Scriptures long held by liberals, agnostics, infidels, and most scholars

be in error, when placed together, actually explain, confirm and sustain

another.

Thus, like his "father" David, Jehoiachin was anointed to reign but many
years passed before he actually ascended to the head of the Monarchy. The
first time "he came unto his own" and presented himself as their anointed
King "his own received him not" (Joh.1:11) saying "we will not have this

to reign over us" (Luk.19:14). The second time, he was welcomed as King,

no one is said to have installed him. Both thereby become types of another
and far greater in this same dynasty, even the Lord Jesus, the Christ.

was anointed to rule by the last of the Old Testament prophets, John the
Baptist. The Father confirmed the same at that occasion by audibly

from heaven (Mat.3:13-17; 11:7-15); yet the Lord Jesus has not yet

"the throne of His father, David" (Luk.1:31-32).

Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones



Nicked and Plagiarised by: Uncle Davey

Jason Gastrich wrote:

Good luck in your studies, Grinder. However, I can't
give you any more information.

You can still offer me your opinion as a Bible scholar.

I simply read this as a note in the NKJV Bible from
its translators.

That note for 2 Chronicles 36:9 reads:

| Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint, Syriac, and
| 2 Kings 24:8 read eighteen.

Why would the KJV/NKJV/KJ21 translators pick the *wrong* value?

Would this qualify as one of the errors that keeps the KJV from being
inerrant? In other words, would you "correct" this passage if you

to write an inerrent English Bible?