| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"LisaKay" |
| Date: |
22 Jan 2004 07:04:41 PM |
| Object: |
21 grams |
What do you all know/think about the movie and the experiments?
I haven't found much except at snopes.com. I'd like to see some other
websites with professional opinions, etc. Other studies, besides r.
MacDougall's, etc.
-LisaKay
aa #2054
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| User: "LisaKay" |
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| Title: Re: 21 grams |
23 Jan 2004 03:28:06 PM |
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(LisaKay) wrote in message news:<1dbe2aec.0401221704.1780f366@posting.google.com>...
What do you all know/think about the movie and the experiments?
I haven't found much except at snopes.com. I'd like to see some other
websites with professional opinions, etc. Other studies, besides Dr.
MacDougall's, etc.
-LisaKay
aa #2054
Sorry I was being vague here, but I was hoping you all knew more than
I did. I had a student claiming to have read a study that said that
at the moment of death, every human body loses exactly 21 grams. This
is suggested to be mass of the human soul because it is exactly 21
grams, no more, no less for any person, redardless of the person's
size.
According to Snopes, the experiment was conducted about 100 years ago
and was only done six times. Of the six results, two were for some
reason thrown out (didn't support his hypothesis, I'd guess). The
other four all recorded a mass of around 21 grams (not exactly 21
grams). He was using terminally ill patients and recorded the time of
death as the moment of the last breath. Interestingly he poisoned
several dogs to perform the experiment on, none of which lost any
mass. Apparently this is because only humans have souls.
To me this is not a scientific experiment due to the small sample size
and the fact that two results were thrown out. (Not to mention the
questionable ethical problems with the dogs.) Also, would a person's
soul leave at the moment of last breath of at the cessation of brain
function? I don't believe in souls, but if I did, I would struggle
with that question.
I was hoping to find out if this experiment has been carried out again
since the first time.
Apparently a movie was based on this idea, but I haven't seen it and
from what I've heard, it sounds like it would be a headache to watch.
Interesting, though...maybe.
-LisaKay
aa #2054
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| User: "Sean C" |
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| Title: Re: 21 grams |
23 Jan 2004 10:46:04 PM |
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In article <1dbe2aec.0401231328.75854294@posting.google.com>, LisaKay
<LisaKay2054@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sorry I was being vague here, but I was hoping you all knew more than
I did. I had a student claiming to have read a study that said that
at the moment of death, every human body loses exactly 21 grams. This
is suggested to be mass of the human soul because it is exactly 21
grams, no more, no less for any person, redardless of the person's
size.
According to Snopes, the experiment was conducted about 100 years ago
and was only done six times. Of the six results, two were for some
reason thrown out (didn't support his hypothesis, I'd guess). The
other four all recorded a mass of around 21 grams (not exactly 21
grams). He was using terminally ill patients and recorded the time of
death as the moment of the last breath. Interestingly he poisoned
several dogs to perform the experiment on, none of which lost any
mass. Apparently this is because only humans have souls.
To me this is not a scientific experiment due to the small sample size
and the fact that two results were thrown out. (Not to mention the
questionable ethical problems with the dogs.) Also, would a person's
soul leave at the moment of last breath of at the cessation of brain
function? I don't believe in souls, but if I did, I would struggle
with that question.
I was hoping to find out if this experiment has been carried out again
since the first time.
Apparently a movie was based on this idea, but I haven't seen it and
from what I've heard, it sounds like it would be a headache to watch.
Interesting, though...maybe.
Considering that there will be a variation in the amount of air in each
person's lungs at the time of death, I doubt there would be a
consistent loss of 21 grams, even if everyone really has a soul. People
who died on inhalation would weigh more than those who died after fully
exhaling, all other things being equal. So you might actually gain
weight at the moment of death, or lose inconsistent amounts depending
on how much you exhale.
The movie did have a religious sub-theme in Benicio del Toro's
character, who was a fundie ex-con who was struggling with his faith
after killing some people in a car accident. But the "21 grams"
reference really didn't have all that much to do with the plot, from
what I could tell.
Sean C
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| User: "Sean C" |
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| Title: Re: 21 grams |
22 Jan 2004 07:12:57 PM |
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In article <1dbe2aec.0401221704.1780f366@posting.google.com>, LisaKay
<LisaKay2054@hotmail.com> wrote:
What do you all know/think about the movie and the experiments?
I haven't found much except at snopes.com. I'd like to see some other
websites with professional opinions, etc. Other studies, besides r.
MacDougall's, etc.
-LisaKay
aa #2054
What experiments do you mean? I didn't particularly like the movie, as
it was a little too disjointed and improbable for me.
Sean C
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http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "Xaonon" |
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| Title: Re: 21 grams |
22 Jan 2004 11:44:16 PM |
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Ned i bach <1dbe2aec.0401221704.1780f366@posting.google.com>, LisaKay
<LisaKay2054@hotmail.com> teithant i thiw hin:
What do you all know/think about the movie and the experiments?
I haven't seen the movie (or indeed even heard of it until now). As for the
experiments, they're trivially meaningless. What do the error bars on that
figure look like? I would wager much of my anatomy that they're bigger than
21 grams!
--
Xaonon, EAC Chief of Mad Scientists and informal BAAWA, aa #1821, Kibo #: 1
http://xaonon.dyndns.org/ Guaranteed content-free since 1999. No refunds.
"I don't mizzle shizzle if real wizzles are used. What I do mizzle is made
up slizzle, like shizzle dizzle. What the fizzle?" -- not Lots42
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| User: "pan" |
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| Title: Re: 21 grams |
22 Jan 2004 07:50:12 PM |
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On 22 Jan 2004 17:04:41 -0800, (LisaKay)
wrote:
What do you all know/think about the movie
and the experiments?
That the body looses 21gm at death?
(The assumption being that its the person's soul?)
I think it's odd that some theists would believe that a 'soul' or
'spirit' has a measurable weight.
The only experiment I can find was done over 90 years ago.
http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp
Does someone on life-support (who is 'brain dead') loose 21gm when the
plug is pulled? ;-/
pan
I haven't found much except at snopes.com. I'd like to see some other
websites with professional opinions, etc. Other studies, besides r.
MacDougall's, etc.
-LisaKay
aa #2054
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: 21 grams |
23 Jan 2004 06:41:42 AM |
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On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:50:12 +0000, pan wrote:
On 22 Jan 2004 17:04:41 -0800, (LisaKay) wrote:
What do you all know/think about the movie
and the experiments?
That the body looses 21gm at death?
(The assumption being that its the person's soul?)
I think it's odd that some theists would believe that a 'soul' or 'spirit'
has a measurable weight.
The only experiment I can find was done over 90 years ago.
http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp
Does someone on life-support (who is 'brain dead') loose 21gm when the
plug is pulled? ;-/
pan
I haven't found much except at snopes.com. I'd like to see some other
websites with professional opinions, etc. Other studies, besides r.
MacDougall's, etc.
-LisaKay
aa #2054
It the soul has a measurable weight, then it has mass. If it has mass, it
will need to have a force applied to it in order to move it. If souls
don't disappear, and new souls are being made all the time, and the souls
of dead people need to be accelerated to get them off the earth, then the
entire mass of the universe and its energy are being converted into souls.
I'm surprised that nobody has tried to equate "dark matter/energy" with
something divine.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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