source: http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-x-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: AA - AQOTM Nomination - Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 12:22:58 AM |
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<simple_language@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186630383.908005.284000@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-x-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
That is so good you deserve an AQOTM nomination
just for bringing that to us even if you weren't the original
author.
Seconds anyone?
--
rb #2187
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: AA - AQOTM Nomination - Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 12:25:19 AM |
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On Aug 9, 1:22 am, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote:
<simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186630383.908005.284000@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-par...
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
That is so good you deserve an AQOTM nomination
just for bringing that to us even if you weren't the original
author.
Seconds anyone?
Wholeheartedly seconded
.
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: AA - AQOTM Nomination - Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 04:23:31 PM |
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Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
On Aug 9, 1:22 am, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote:
<simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186630383.908005.284000@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-par...
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
That is so good you deserve an AQOTM nomination
just for bringing that to us even if you weren't the original
author.
Seconds anyone?
Wholeheartedly seconded
Oh how I wish this had come from an AA post.... such a pity.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: AA - AQOTM Nomination - Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 10:42:29 AM |
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On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 22:22:58 -0700, Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:
<simple_language@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186630383.908005.284000@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-
x-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
That is so good you deserve an AQOTM nomination just for bringing that
to us even if you weren't the original author.
Seconds anyone?
I don't think we've ever allowed material from outside the ng to be in
the QoTM contest...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"What the hell is an aluminum Falcon?"
.
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: AA - AQOTM Nomination - Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 01:03:43 PM |
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On Aug 9, 11:42 am, "Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 22:22:58 -0700, Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:
<simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186630383.908005.284000@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-
x-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
That is so good you deserve an AQOTM nomination just for bringing that
to us even if you weren't the original author.
Seconds anyone?
I don't think we've ever allowed material from outside the ng to be in
the QoTM contest...
Yeah, I actually missed that bit when I seconded it.
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
08 Aug 2007 11:59:52 PM |
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<simple_language@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186630383.908005.284000@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-x-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
That's excellent.
--
rb #2187
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| User: "Jon Skinner" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 04:31:35 AM |
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<> wrote:
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-x
-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
Superb.
But it leaves me wondering what an agnostic makes of 2+2.
--
Jon
aa#277
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 08:28:32 PM |
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On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 19:01:35 +0930, (Jon Skinner)
wrote:
simple_language@yahoo.com <simple_language@yahoo.com> wrote:
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-x
-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
Superb.
But it leaves me wondering what an agnostic makes of 2+2.
"This page left intentionally blank"
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| User: "Niels" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 08:42:47 AM |
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On Thursday 09 August 2007 11:31, Jon Skinner wrote:
simple_language@yahoo.com <simple_language@yahoo.com> wrote:
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-x
-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
Superb.
But it leaves me wondering what an agnostic makes of 2+2.
Obviously, an agnostic doesn't know the answer.
//Niels
.
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| User: "Lisbeth Andersson" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 01:14:52 PM |
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Niels <name@example.com> wrote in
news:rREui.33$i95.14@news.get2net.dk:
On Thursday 09 August 2007 11:31, Jon Skinner wrote:
simple_language@yahoo.com <simple_language@yahoo.com> wrote:
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-scienc
e-part-x -some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written.
Somewhere. They have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4.
but go regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or
will one day make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense
should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to
say so too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles.
Two more pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
Superb.
But it leaves me wondering what an agnostic makes of 2+2.
Obviously, an agnostic doesn't know the answer.
Yes, but is that because s/he hasn't enough information, or is it
because the answer cannot ever be known? :-)
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
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| User: "Stephen Knight" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 09:14:30 PM |
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On 09 Aug 2007 18:14:52 GMT, Lisbeth Andersson <lisand@bredband.net>
wrote:
Yes, but is that because s/he hasn't enough information, or is it
because the answer cannot ever be known? :-)
I was wondering, since you agnostics bray your idiocy from the
highest intellectual mountain, at what point do you say, 'that's
*****!'?
Or is that a concept you can't grasp but instead scurry to the
middle of 'warm and furry'?
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
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| User: "Lisbeth Andersson" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
10 Aug 2007 07:44:17 AM |
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Stephen Knight <wooly51@comcast.net> wrote in
news:v4inb3tlrj5s4f0dsiss5cqimbijpovhqe@4ax.com:
On 09 Aug 2007 18:14:52 GMT, Lisbeth Andersson <lisand@bredband.net>
wrote:
Yes, but is that because s/he hasn't enough information, or is it
because the answer cannot ever be known? :-)
I was wondering, since you agnostics bray your idiocy from the
highest intellectual mountain, at what point do you say, 'that's
*****!'?
WTF?
Or is that a concept you can't grasp but instead scurry to the
middle of 'warm and furry'?
Your chances of getting an answer would be better if you actually
asked an agnostic. I'm the closest to gnostic atheist you'll ever
find. If anything worth calling "godess, godesses, god or gods"
existed, we would know about it, and could spend our fridays on better
things than posting to alt.atheism.
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
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| User: "Niels" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 02:54:36 PM |
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On Thursday 09 August 2007 20:14, Lisbeth Andersson wrote:
Niels <name@example.com> wrote in
news:rREui.33$i95.14@news.get2net.dk:
On Thursday 09 August 2007 11:31, Jon Skinner wrote:
simple_language@yahoo.com <simple_language@yahoo.com> wrote:
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-scienc
e-part-x -some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written.
Somewhere. They have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4.
but go regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or
will one day make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense
should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to
say so too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles.
Two more pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
Superb.
But it leaves me wondering what an agnostic makes of 2+2.
Obviously, an agnostic doesn't know the answer.
Yes, but is that because s/he hasn't enough information, or is it
because the answer cannot ever be known? :-)
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
Well, judging by alt.atheism, after a lengthy philosophical discussion, such
fine nuances tend to become less important than the basic meaning of common
words and the intelligence of the other person...
//Niels
.
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 08:38:42 AM |
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|
On Aug 8, 11:33 pm, "simple_langu...@yahoo.com"
<simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
source:http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-par...
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
and some here would then say "you brainwashed fools, you are so close
minded and hypocritical to count four pebbles. Open your mind,
jackasses."
Actually four posters come to mind.
Hatter
.
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| User: "Lisbeth Andersson" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 01:17:20 PM |
|
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Hatter <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1186666722.307733.201620@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
On Aug 8, 11:33 pm, "simple_langu...@yahoo.com"
<simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
source:http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-
science-par...
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written.
Somewhere. They have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4.
but go regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or
will one day make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense
should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to
say so too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two
more pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
and some here would then say "you brainwashed fools, you are so
close minded and hypocritical to count four pebbles. Open your
mind, jackasses."
Actually four posters come to mind.
"We'll be counting gravestones at your funeral."
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 08:39:39 AM |
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On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 06:38:42 -0700, Hatter <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
On Aug 8, 11:33 pm, "simple_langu...@yahoo.com"
<simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
source:http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-par...
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
and some here would then say "you brainwashed fools, you are so close
minded and hypocritical to count four pebbles. Open your mind,
jackasses."
Actually four posters come to mind.
Are they bedded in?
Hatter
.
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| User: "Sanitys Little Helper" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 11:08:33 AM |
|
|
Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:q76mb3dml09c9ld9vi1trr60olhlmf4vrg@4ax.com to alt.atheism:
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 06:38:42 -0700, Hatter <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
On Aug 8, 11:33 pm, "simple_langu...@yahoo.com"
<simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
source:http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-scie
nce-par...
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere.
They have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but
go regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one
day make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say
so too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two
more pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
and some here would then say "you brainwashed fools, you are so close
minded and hypocritical to count four pebbles. Open your mind,
jackasses."
Actually four posters come to mind.
Are they bedded in?
Hatter
I was about to say:As long as they contain Estella Warren, who minds?
--
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N.
aa #2208
"If you are informed by God, you can be misinformed by nobody" - Osama
Bin Laden
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| User: "William Wingstedt" |
|
| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 04:43:23 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 20:33:03 -0700, "simple_language@yahoo.com"
<simple_language@yahoo.com> wrote:
source: http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-x-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
Both fundamentalists and moderates believe that 2+2 is potentially 5
and therefore, 4 is actually 5 and that 5 shall enjoy all the benefits
and legal protections that now accrue only to 4.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
Scientist: Four pebbles can become five by splitting one of them in
half, provided that the definition of pebble is not dependent on size
or that the small, dustlike fragments that may result from breaking a
pebble are not themselves considered pebbles, in which case the number
of resulting pebbles may be indeterminate.
.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 08:05:45 AM |
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On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 20:33:03 -0700, wrote:
source: http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-x-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
2+2=5 (for extremely large values of 2)
--
MarkA
(My OTHER sig line is clever)
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: 2+2=? |
09 Aug 2007 08:48:01 AM |
|
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"MarkA" <toor@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.08.09.13.05.42.958352@nowhere.com...
On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 20:33:03 -0700, wrote:
source:
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/2007/07/faith-reason-and-science-part-x-some.html
Fundamentalists: believe 2+2 =5 because It Is Written. Somewhere. They
have a lot of trouble on their tax returns.
"Moderate" believers: live their lives on the basis that 2+2=4. but go
regularly to church to be told that 2+2 once made 5, or will one day
make 5, or in a very real and spiritual sense should make 5.
"Moderate" atheists: know that 2+2 =4 but think it impolite to say so
too loudly as people who think 2+2=5 might be offended.
"Militant" atheists: "Oh for pity's sake. HERE. Two pebbles. Two more
pebbles. FOUR pebbles. What is WRONG with you people?"
2+2=5 (for extremely large values of 2)
Or small values of 5.
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