25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Michelle Malkin"
Date:	11 Sep 2005 09:26:40 PM
Object:	25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquotes.htm
--
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BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper,
High Priestess Bastet of the Unchurch Temple of Si & Am
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.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	14 Sep 2005 03:29:47 PM

In <qjoei11nobppa8c731cdrqa0ht6anir3ja@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
<snip>
Look, I just cannot fathom all this talk about abandoning a US city. I
cannot believe people are talking that way. We've always had the ability
to protect New Orleans, it's been a matter of will.
Though, on the other hand, given global warming, there may well be a
retreat from the coast over the years. But it won't just be us. You know
the Texas coast has been sinking so fast it's been noticeable over my
lifetime? Galveston's going to have to take lessons from the Dutch at the
rate things are going...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long
after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have
been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing.
Many who could have been were not. That's to the
government's shame."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2D511CBB
.

User: "Matt Silberstein"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	14 Sep 2005 03:51:55 PM

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:29:47 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> in <WeOdnSmacYKgFbXeRVn-sw@megapath.net>
wrote:

It won't be just you. Nor will NO be the first city abandoned to the
ocean. NO is not the city it was 20 or 30 years ago. It has sunk and
is continuing to sink and will continue to sink for the foreseeable
future. It has lost protective islands and marshes and will continue
to loose them even if we re-build. We will abandon NO long before we
decide to allow the Mississippi to follow its own lead. (And if we had
done that then NO would have been left behind when the Mississippi
decided to travel down the Atchafalaya .)
I am sorry, but it is not a matter of will, no more than winning a war
is a matter of will. Wanting something really bad does not make it
happen, wanting something to be true does not make it true. I could be
wrong about the need/value of retreating in NO, but no one has really
given a reason. You say you don't like it, you point out risks
elsewhere as if any risk is the same as any other, but no one seems
willing to look at the actual issues and make a judgment. I might be
wrong and I hope I am. At best, though, I figure I might be wrong in
my lifetime. But if another Cat 4 comes by, and hits just a bit to the
west, NO is gone for good. NO got lucky two ways this time. Katrina
headed straight for the city, giving it a clear warning, then jogged
to the east, giving it a reprieve. If the next one seems to be headed
elsewhere, so people don't bother to leave, then makes a sudden jog or
speeds up, then way more flooding and way more death will occur.
This is not speculating about a quake that might happen sometime in
the next 10,000 years, this is something that seems to happen every 30
or so years. And NO is getting more and more vulnerable, not less.
What matters is what is the expected cost of the risk and what can you
do to mitigate the damage. With a city below sea level that is sinking
mitigation gets harder and harder.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	15 Sep 2005 08:29:01 AM

In <me2hi11ch0mlnfofaopeqnoqt8qp3465ug@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:29:47 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> in <WeOdnSmacYKgFbXeRVn-sw@megapath.net>
wrote:

It won't be just you. Nor will NO be the first city abandoned to the
ocean. NO is not the city it was 20 or 30 years ago. It has sunk and is
continuing to sink and will continue to sink for the foreseeable future.
It has lost protective islands and marshes and will continue to loose them
even if we re-build. We will abandon NO long before we decide to allow the
Mississippi to follow its own lead. (And if we had done that then NO would
have been left behind when the Mississippi decided to travel down the
Atchafalaya .)

I am sorry, but it is not a matter of will, no more than winning a war is
a matter of will. Wanting something really bad does not make it happen,
wanting something to be true does not make it true. I could be wrong about
the need/value of retreating in NO, but no one has really given a reason.
You say you don't like it, you point out risks elsewhere as if any risk is
the same as any other, but no one seems willing to look at the actual
issues and make a judgment. I might be wrong and I hope I am. At best,
though, I figure I might be wrong in my lifetime. But if another Cat 4
comes by, and hits just a bit to the west, NO is gone for good. NO got
lucky two ways this time. Katrina headed straight for the city, giving it
a clear warning, then jogged to the east, giving it a reprieve. If the
next one seems to be headed elsewhere, so people don't bother to leave,
then makes a sudden jog or speeds up, then way more flooding and way more
death will occur.

This is not speculating about a quake that might happen sometime in the
next 10,000 years, this is something that seems to happen every 30 or so
years. And NO is getting more and more vulnerable, not less. What matters
is what is the expected cost of the risk and what can you do to mitigate
the damage. With a city below sea level that is sinking mitigation gets
harder and harder.

Except that Katrina is characterized by the actual experts as a "one
hundred year storm." From the NHC records, the last I can find that struck
the city with comparable force was 1915.
If this were some kind of discussion about retreating from the *entire
Gulf Coast because of global warming, I could deal with that. But this
thing going around that "*those people" should be abandoned is pissing me
off.
Hell, Florida is going to be in worse shape. From 1851-2004, all direct
strikes on the US coast (Cat 1 through 5) totaled 273 according to the
NHC. Of those, 110, were Florida. Louisiana was less than half that at 49.
If the Gulf is getting warmer and powering up these storms more than ever
before, Florida is looking at being regularly flattened. Just because
they're not in a "bowl" doesn't mean they won't be knocked over again and
again and again...
Of the 92 Cat 3 through 5 in that period, 19 struck Texas, 18 struck
Louisiana, 35 struck Florida. Almost as many as Texas and Louisiana
combined.
Over on the East Coast, North Carolina took 12 hits. North and South
Carolina together took as many as we did at 18.
If this is becoming our "normal," it's not going to be *just New Orleans...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long
after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have
been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing.
Many who could have been were not. That's to the
government's shame."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2D511CBB
.

User: "Matt Silberstein"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	15 Sep 2005 09:46:50 AM

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:29:01 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> in <pbednW2AKtSC6rTeRVn-tw@megapath.net>
wrote:

In <me2hi11ch0mlnfofaopeqnoqt8qp3465ug@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:29:47 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> in <WeOdnSmacYKgFbXeRVn-sw@megapath.net>
wrote:

It won't be just you. Nor will NO be the first city abandoned to the
ocean. NO is not the city it was 20 or 30 years ago. It has sunk and is
continuing to sink and will continue to sink for the foreseeable future.
It has lost protective islands and marshes and will continue to loose them
even if we re-build. We will abandon NO long before we decide to allow the
Mississippi to follow its own lead. (And if we had done that then NO would
have been left behind when the Mississippi decided to travel down the
Atchafalaya .)

I am sorry, but it is not a matter of will, no more than winning a war is
a matter of will. Wanting something really bad does not make it happen,
wanting something to be true does not make it true. I could be wrong about
the need/value of retreating in NO, but no one has really given a reason.
You say you don't like it, you point out risks elsewhere as if any risk is
the same as any other, but no one seems willing to look at the actual
issues and make a judgment. I might be wrong and I hope I am. At best,
though, I figure I might be wrong in my lifetime. But if another Cat 4
comes by, and hits just a bit to the west, NO is gone for good. NO got
lucky two ways this time. Katrina headed straight for the city, giving it
a clear warning, then jogged to the east, giving it a reprieve. If the
next one seems to be headed elsewhere, so people don't bother to leave,
then makes a sudden jog or speeds up, then way more flooding and way more
death will occur.

This is not speculating about a quake that might happen sometime in the
next 10,000 years, this is something that seems to happen every 30 or so
years. And NO is getting more and more vulnerable, not less. What matters
is what is the expected cost of the risk and what can you do to mitigate
the damage. With a city below sea level that is sinking mitigation gets
harder and harder.

Most of the coast is not below sea level. I do also think that we need
to re-think our entire way of dealing with our coasts. People have
this notion that the world always looked the way they first saw it.
Coasts and rivers and such are dynamic. We need to develop and use
better ways of dealing with this.

Hell, Florida is going to be in worse shape. From 1851-2004, all direct
strikes on the US coast (Cat 1 through 5) totaled 273 according to the
NHC. Of those, 110, were Florida. Louisiana was less than half that at 49.
If the Gulf is getting warmer and powering up these storms more than ever
before, Florida is looking at being regularly flattened. Just because
they're not in a "bowl" doesn't mean they won't be knocked over again and
again and again...

It is more complex than that. It is not clear that *global* warming
will increase the number or intensity of storms. Storm force has to do
with energy imbalance. At the moment it looks like the poles are
warming faster, so there could even be a decrease in storm activity.
But the current models do not get down that far in detail. We are in
for a local (temporally) increase in storm activity. Sea level rises
don't help that (though NO has sunk much more than the sea has risen)
nor does our policies regarding wetland and barrier islands and sandy
beaches.

Of the 92 Cat 3 through 5 in that period, 19 struck Texas, 18 struck
Louisiana, 35 struck Florida. Almost as many as Texas and Louisiana
combined.

Over on the East Coast, North Carolina took 12 hits. North and South
Carolina together took as many as we did at 18.

If this is becoming our "normal," it's not going to be *just New Orleans...

I agree. Lots of areas need looking at. I don't know why you see this
as an argument for ignoring issues regarding NO.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.

User: "No 33 Secretary"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	13 Sep 2005 06:50:24 PM

Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:qjoei11nobppa8c731cdrqa0ht6anir3ja@4ax.com:

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:15:10 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> in
<Rv2dnY4XCe3WrrrenZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@megapath.net> wrote:

In <0iaei15mic61346q5fejpta1nkrkaf0an9@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:21:04 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> in <3vudnQqvXfroYbveRVn-2w@megapath.net>
wrote:

In <blndi1lipdo7void4a0pnmifbavp44ibqc@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 06:41:19 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Mark K.
Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> in
<QqudnZP5p5hAJ7veRVn-oA@megapath.net> wrote:

In <8rici19d8k1s8s443gh6sp8ok5jpiqi0u2@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:46:03 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Mark K.
Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> in
<bqydnREMsqLwoLveRVn-jQ@megapath.net> wrote:

In <i71bi15khted6cpsesfluk9mdnopspvuq8@4ax.com>, Matt
Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:26:40 -0400, in alt.atheism , "Michelle
Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> in
<7IadnXcOf5LDerneRVn-tQ@comcast.com> wrote:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquote
s.htm

I agree with Hastert, as do lots of people at the moment, it
is kind of silly to just rebuild in the same place. Keep the
French quarter, keep the port, and rebuild the minimum
necessary to support them.

So we'll be depopulating Florida and resettling them elsewhere
will we?

The water leaves Florida when the storm passes. They have done
way too much building on the coast and are going to pay for that
several times in the coming decade, but I don't happen to know
of any place in Florida as vulnerable as New Orleans.

Los Angeles for one. What a stupid idea to build on an active
fault line!

And move St. Louis while we're at it. The New Madrid could flatten
it any day now...

I am very sorry for your loss and I do understand the pain
involved and the pain of loss of place. But you and others seem to
argue that people should live anywhere they want to no matter the
risk. You counter my claim of an unacceptable risk due to some
specific feature with a point that other places have risks. They
sure do, so we try to figure out where the risks/costs are
acceptable and where they are not.

Now I could be wrong about New Orleans. But the argument for that
is not that L.A. has faults. It is that it will cost only X to
protect NO from a direct hit from a Cat 4/5. (Remember, as bad as
things are, this was a near miss.

Where *are you getting that? Are you aware that hurricanes rotate
counter-clockwise? One of the greatest dangers to the city is a
strike slightly to the East which happened. That means the waters of
Pontchartrain are being swept into the city and canals are being
overloaded (like the 17th Street Canal).

Other way around. Yes, they rotate counter clockwise. That means
that the biggest winds and largest swells are on the right side. The
wind on the left is moving back to the direction of movement of the
hurricane itself. If the storm is moving at 15 miles an hour there
can be a 30 mph difference between what you feel on the left and the
right and several feet in storm surge.

Notice that the Mississippi coast, to the East of the eye was simply
flattened.

Yes. The right side is worse. NO took the left side the storm.
Katrina took a jog to the left at the last minute, if it had not NO
would have had much more wind and more water and a higher surge.

You need to look at a map and find Pontchartrain. The way Katrina came
in was about as bad as it gets. The comments of "could have been
worse" were followed with "the levies could have broken" then followed
immediately with "oh *****!"

Now ask yourself what would have happened if the surge had been 2 or 3
or more feet higher and the winds 30 mph more. Mark, you got the
"side" issue wrong, now you are saying it does not matter. It does.

[snip]

Suppose several more levees had given way?

Well, the ones in St. Bernard are gone. Not "gave way." They don't
exist anymore.

Which is terrible. Now what if more had done that? Not all of them
failed.

Instead of having one breach in
each they could have had several and had the whole city flooded much
faster. The escape time could have been shortened by hours and the
flood rising much faster over a much larger area. And if the
chemical plants had blown then that water might be much worse.

Possibly. Interestingly enough, though, they were designed for a Cat 3
and a lot of the system made it through an usually large Cat 4.

Engineers tend to over engineer and owners tend to under budget. It is
an interesting tension.

[snip]

I agree. It serves several essential functions. I don't suggest
abandoning anyone or abandoning the city. As I said, we need a port
and the French Quarter is high enough to save. But it does not need
a sports stadium and all the rest of the ephemera of a "normal"
city. A much smaller city is easier to defend and easier to fix
later.

How much smaller can we *get? New Orleans itself--where the seriously
bad flooding issues are primarily located--is smaller than Austin
Texas. Smaller than Long Beach California.

But, as I have said, I am pissing up wind. We are going to re-build
without a thought of other options.

Well, we keep rebuilding LA. Billions are spent on LA not just in
rebuilding but in earthquake preparation. The only reason that city
keeps making it through earthquakes are the billions being spent on
it. Notice a pattern? Spend money in preparation, you survive. Neglect
a city, it's devastated.

No, I don't notice some absolute pattern that does not does not
require an input at all. Yes, some places are safe enough if you spend
enough on risk mitigation. Some places are not. Timbuktu was one of
the great cities of the world. It is not covered with sand. The
question is not should we abandon every place with a risk, but what
risks can we sufficiently and economically mitigate and what risks
can't we do so.

Of course, if the Newport-Inglewood goes off with a 7 something, all
bets are off for LA...

I am sure you have a point.

No, he doesn't. LA would shrug off a 7. San Francisco *has*. There's be
damage, yes, in the millions. But probably fewer deaths than NO right now,
and certainly an order of magnitude or two less (as a percentage of the
total) of the buildings would be destroyed or damaged beyond repair.
Earthquakes simply aren't as dangerous in today's world as a category 4 or
5 hurricane.
--
"So there is no third law of Terrydynamics."
-- William Hyde
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
.

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 09:22:42 AM

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:43:41 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:26:40 -0400, in alt.atheism , "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> in <7IadnXcOf5LDerneRVn-tQ@comcast.com> wrote:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquotes.htm

I agree with Hastert, as do lots of people at the moment, it is kind
of silly to just rebuild in the same place. Keep the French quarter,
keep the port, and rebuild the minimum necessary to support them.

Should we also abandon the entire Mississippi coast as well? Biloxi
will just get knocked down by another class 5.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1894 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

User: "Matt Silberstein"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 10:41:59 AM

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:22:42 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Yang, AthD
(h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> in
<0o3bi1diengbsnbv92omg7q4vtat20qa1u@4ax.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:43:41 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:26:40 -0400, in alt.atheism , "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> in <7IadnXcOf5LDerneRVn-tQ@comcast.com> wrote:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquotes.htm

I agree with Hastert, as do lots of people at the moment, it is kind
of silly to just rebuild in the same place. Keep the French quarter,
keep the port, and rebuild the minimum necessary to support them.

Should we also abandon the entire Mississippi coast as well? Biloxi
will just get knocked down by another class 5.

If the entire coast was below sea level then it should be abandoned.
Then again, if the entire coast was below sea level then it should be
in the gulf.
It is a good idea to admit errors, to change policy when it does not
work. If that meant changing other policies, then change them as well.
The world is not unlimited in resources, trade-offs matter. If people
insist on living in deserts then they should understand they are going
to run out of water. If they insist on living below sea level they
should understand they are going to flood. By no means do I blame the
victims of Katrina, I blame a messed up system that prevents useful
long term thinking or preparation.
<diatribe>
If we are not going to plan, then we should allow true capitalism. Let
NO tax the traffic that goes through and use that money to protect
itself. And if they are not going to make the investment, then let
them drown. But do it out in the open, with clear, obvious,
transparent rules.
I am sick and tired of a country that treats liberalism as a joke,
that makes fun of people who want to prevent problems, and then cries
its eyes out over the puppy that drowns. One or the other folks, this
way is the worst of worlds.
If we want the Republican way, then get rid of FEMA and Social
Security and OSHA and unemployment insurance and all that. And when
people starve or get sick or have a storm, let them fend for
themselves.
Or we should accept that we have polis, a society. We should protect
the helpless, restrict people from doing harm (such as destroying
wetlands and deforesting the mountains and poisoning streams to get
some gold), require safe and reasonable working conditions, see
government as one more necessary and useful way of creating and
maintaining the society.
</diatribe>
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.

User: "WCB"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 11:47:45 AM

Matt Silberstein wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:22:42 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Yang, AthD
(h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> in
<0o3bi1diengbsnbv92omg7q4vtat20qa1u@4ax.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:43:41 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:26:40 -0400, in alt.atheism , "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> in <7IadnXcOf5LDerneRVn-tQ@comcast.com> wrote:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquotes.htm

I agree with Hastert, as do lots of people at the moment, it is kind
of silly to just rebuild in the same place. Keep the French quarter,
keep the port, and rebuild the minimum necessary to support them.

Should we also abandon the entire Mississippi coast as well? Biloxi
will just get knocked down by another class 5.

If the entire coast was below sea level then it should be abandoned.
Then again, if the entire coast was below sea level then it should be
in the gulf.

Its a matter of storm surge. A class 5 will give you about 25 feet of
surge. Anything less than 25 feet above the sea level is in danger.
It is possible that abandoning the entire coast to the sea may be
best. Find that line about 25 above sea level and build a
protective ***** and a raised highway well back from that.
Realize all before the ***** will be destroyed in a hurricane.
Let it all become marshland again. Anything built there
is ephermial and expendable. And as the arctic ice melts,
sea level will rise over the next century.
Learn that what water won't take, wind will. 100 miles
inland is dangerous territory.

It is a good idea to admit errors, to change policy when it does not
work. If that meant changing other policies, then change them as well.
The world is not unlimited in resources, trade-offs matter. If people
insist on living in deserts then they should understand they are going
to run out of water. If they insist on living below sea level they
should understand they are going to flood. By no means do I blame the
victims of Katrina, I blame a messed up system that prevents useful
long term thinking or preparation.

<diatribe>

If we are not going to plan, then we should allow true capitalism. Let
NO tax the traffic that goes through and use that money to protect
itself. And if they are not going to make the investment, then let
them drown. But do it out in the open, with clear, obvious,
transparent rules.

I am sick and tired of a country that treats liberalism as a joke,
that makes fun of people who want to prevent problems, and then cries
its eyes out over the puppy that drowns. One or the other folks, this
way is the worst of worlds.

If we want the Republican way, then get rid of FEMA and Social
Security and OSHA and unemployment insurance and all that. And when
people starve or get sick or have a storm, let them fend for
themselves.

Or we should accept that we have polis, a society. We should protect
the helpless, restrict people from doing harm (such as destroying
wetlands and deforesting the mountains and poisoning streams to get
some gold), require safe and reasonable working conditions, see
government as one more necessary and useful way of creating and
maintaining the society.

</diatribe>

--
"Today the official spokesman for the Foxes
agreed an investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed."
Cheerful Charlie
.

User: "Matt Silberstein"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 10:45:41 PM

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:47:45 -0500, in alt.atheism , WCB
<wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> in
<11ibbfi53s6n1ad@corp.supernews.com> wrote:

Matt Silberstein wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:22:42 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Yang, AthD
(h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> in
<0o3bi1diengbsnbv92omg7q4vtat20qa1u@4ax.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:43:41 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:26:40 -0400, in alt.atheism , "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> in <7IadnXcOf5LDerneRVn-tQ@comcast.com> wrote:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquotes.htm

I agree with Hastert, as do lots of people at the moment, it is kind
of silly to just rebuild in the same place. Keep the French quarter,
keep the port, and rebuild the minimum necessary to support them.

Should we also abandon the entire Mississippi coast as well? Biloxi
will just get knocked down by another class 5.

If the entire coast was below sea level then it should be abandoned.
Then again, if the entire coast was below sea level then it should be
in the gulf.

Its a matter of storm surge. A class 5 will give you about 25 feet of
surge. Anything less than 25 feet above the sea level is in danger.

The storm surge goes back. We should be careful were we build on the
coast, we should do much more to preserve barrier islands and marshes
and such.

It is possible that abandoning the entire coast to the sea may be
best. Find that line about 25 above sea level and build a
protective ***** and a raised highway well back from that.
Realize all before the ***** will be destroyed in a hurricane.
Let it all become marshland again. Anything built there
is ephermial and expendable. And as the arctic ice melts,
sea level will rise over the next century.

Learn that what water won't take, wind will. 100 miles
inland is dangerous territory.

I assume you are trying some kind of reducto. Sorry, but risk is a
quantifiable quantity, not something to just wave. If you have
barriers, if you have exit routes, if you have land that will drain
when flooded, then building might work. New Orleans does not have
those and it is only going to get worse. The river is no longer
depositing silt and the protective marshes are disappearing. If
another hurricane hit in the same way again it would do much more
damage.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.

User: "JTEM"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	13 Sep 2005 12:22:48 AM

"Matt Silberstein" wrote

The storm surge goes back. We should be careful were
we build on the coast, we should do much more to
preserve barrier islands and marshes and such.

Agreed. And something else we really have to do is NOT
invest $20 billion to Protect the real estate investments of
the uber rich.
If we as a nation want New Orleans to still exist 100
years from now (and we do), we'll have to pay about
$20 billion (or more) to save it.
Not just from that once-in-a-century direct hit from a
major storm, but from rising sea levels. New Orleans
is ALREADY below sea level. Thanks to melting ice
and the thermal expansion of existing oceans, sea
levels over the next century are expected to rise as
much as a meter above the historical norms.
Quite a bit of low-lying coastal property today is going
to be turned into ocean over the next century. It's going
to cost us countless billions just to save a fraction of
it, and I'm telling you right now that the American
people aren't interested if it's only the investment
property of the overly privileged that we save.
.

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	14 Sep 2005 12:22:24 AM

JTEM wrote:

"Matt Silberstein" wrote

The storm surge goes back. We should be careful were
we build on the coast, we should do much more to
preserve barrier islands and marshes and such.

Agreed. And something else we really have to do is NOT
invest $20 billion to Protect the real estate investments of
the uber rich.

If we as a nation want New Orleans to still exist 100
years from now (and we do), we'll have to pay about
$20 billion (or more) to save it.

Not just from that once-in-a-century direct hit from a
major storm, but from rising sea levels. New Orleans
is ALREADY below sea level. Thanks to melting ice
and the thermal expansion of existing oceans, sea
levels over the next century are expected to rise as
much as a meter above the historical norms.

Quite a bit of low-lying coastal property today is going
to be turned into ocean over the next century. It's going
to cost us countless billions just to save a fraction of
it, and I'm telling you right now that the American
people aren't interested if it's only the investment
property of the overly privileged that we save.

Earth.google shows almost all the land between the city and the ocean at sea
level. You have to get 50 miles or so away from the sea to get better
elevations.
.

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 10:00:39 PM

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:41:59 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:22:42 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Yang, AthD
(h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> in
<0o3bi1diengbsnbv92omg7q4vtat20qa1u@4ax.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:43:41 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:26:40 -0400, in alt.atheism , "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> in <7IadnXcOf5LDerneRVn-tQ@comcast.com> wrote:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquotes.htm

I agree with Hastert, as do lots of people at the moment, it is kind
of silly to just rebuild in the same place. Keep the French quarter,
keep the port, and rebuild the minimum necessary to support them.

Should we also abandon the entire Mississippi coast as well? Biloxi
will just get knocked down by another class 5.

I agree there has to be some cost-benefit analyses, but it's crazy to
write off an entire city. The entire Southwest from LA to Phoenix is a
desert, Riverfront cities like St Louis are vulnerable to flooding,
The entire Pacific Northwest is vulenrable to volcanoes, the entire
West Coast is vulnerable to earthquakes, The entire state of Hawaii is
vulnerable to tsunamis. If you're going to abadon cities because they
suscpetible to natural disasters, then you'll end cramming 300 million
people in Upstate New York. Good government ensures that civilization
thrives *in spite* of these risks.

By no means do I blame the
victims of Katrina, I blame a messed up system that prevents useful
long term thinking or preparation.

<diatribe>

If we are not going to plan, then we should allow true capitalism. Let
NO tax the traffic that goes through and use that money to protect
itself. And if they are not going to make the investment, then let
them drown. But do it out in the open, with clear, obvious,
transparent rules.

I am sick and tired of a country that treats liberalism as a joke,
that makes fun of people who want to prevent problems, and then cries
its eyes out over the puppy that drowns. One or the other folks, this
way is the worst of worlds.

If we want the Republican way, then get rid of FEMA and Social
Security and OSHA and unemployment insurance and all that. And when
people starve or get sick or have a storm, let them fend for
themselves.

Or we should accept that we have polis, a society. We should protect
the helpless, restrict people from doing harm (such as destroying
wetlands and deforesting the mountains and poisoning streams to get
some gold), require safe and reasonable working conditions, see
government as one more necessary and useful way of creating and
maintaining the society.

I agree.

</diatribe>

-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

User: "AZ Nomad"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 10:16:16 PM

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:00:39 -0700, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

vulnerable to tsunamis. If you're going to abadon cities because they
suscpetible to natural disasters, then you'll end cramming 300 million
people in Upstate New York. Good government ensures that civilization
thrives *in spite* of these risks.

Can't. Upstate New York is prone to some pretty nasty blizzards.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	13 Sep 2005 12:06:09 PM

AZ Nomad wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:00:39 -0700, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

Can't. Upstate New York is prone to some pretty nasty blizzards.

Not to mention a fault line on the lower Hudson that hasn't made
any noise in a decade or so. According to the seismologist who
mentioned this to me, silent is a bad thing for a faultline to be.
The noisy ones are releasing stresses, the silent ones are just
building them up for one of those all-at-once things that movies
get made about.
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	16 Sep 2005 10:53:11 PM

On 13 Sep 2005 10:06:09 -0700,

wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:00:39 -0700, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

Can't. Upstate New York is prone to some pretty nasty blizzards.

Across or along the Hudson is the fault line?
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 10:21:18 PM

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:16:16 GMT, AZ Nomad <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:00:39 -0700, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

Can't. Upstate New York is prone to some pretty nasty blizzards.

The Ozarks?
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka

User: "AZ Nomad"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 10:53:12 PM

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:21:18 -0700, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:16:16 GMT, AZ Nomad <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:00:39 -0700, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

Can't. Upstate New York is prone to some pretty nasty blizzards.

The Ozarks?

tornados

User: ""
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 11:20:48 PM

AZ Nomad wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:21:18 -0700, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:16:16 GMT, AZ Nomad <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:00:39 -0700, Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:

Can't. Upstate New York is prone to some pretty nasty blizzards.

The Ozarks?

tornados

And, especially in the eastern parts of the plateau, earthquakes.
.

User: "Matt Silberstein"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 10:42:07 PM

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:00:39 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Yang, AthD
(h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> in
<msfci1lsbg6p0m6k7ner00mbgbfulavpge@4ax.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:41:59 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:22:42 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Yang, AthD
(h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> in
<0o3bi1diengbsnbv92omg7q4vtat20qa1u@4ax.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:43:41 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:26:40 -0400, in alt.atheism , "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> in <7IadnXcOf5LDerneRVn-tQ@comcast.com> wrote:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquotes.htm

I agree with Hastert, as do lots of people at the moment, it is kind
of silly to just rebuild in the same place. Keep the French quarter,
keep the port, and rebuild the minimum necessary to support them.

Should we also abandon the entire Mississippi coast as well? Biloxi
will just get knocked down by another class 5.

Sorry, but "vulnerable to" is a vague term that allows seeming
comparisons that are not justified. I did not say "it might get
damaged by something, so abandon it". I said that this particular city
is under sea level and it *too* vulnerable. Remember, this is not the
big one, this one missed New Orleans. I suspect that building in the
Southwest was a very bad idea and that we are going to pay for it
sooner rather than later. Our water policies are all screwed up.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Title: Re: 25 Stupid Quotes About Hurrican Katrina	12 Sep 2005 10:46:38 PM

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:42:07 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote: