| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"NILS BÖRJESSON" |
| Date: |
14 Jun 2006 02:30:12 PM |
| Object: |
4. Land mammal-whale transition |
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/PoE/pe13anml.html#nmlsmlslwhltrnstn
4. Land mammal-whale transition
Evolution has a major problem with the land mammal to whale transition. The
creationist zoologist, Douglas Dewar,
has summarised the immense changes involved in such a transition:
"Let us notice what would be involved in the conversion of a land quadruped
into, first a
seal-like creature and then into a whale. The land animal would, while on
land, have to cease using its hind
legs for locomotion and to keep than permanently stretched out backwards on
either side of the tail and to
drag itself about by using its fore-legs. During its excursions in the
water, it must have retained the hind legs
in their rigid position and swum by moving them and the tail from side to
side. As a result of this act of self
denial we must assume that the hind legs eventually be came pinned to the
tail by the growth of membrane.
Thus the hind part of the body would have become likes that of a seal.
Having reached this stage, the
creature in anticipation of a time when it will give birth to its young
under water, gradually develops
apparatus by means of which the milk is forced into the mouth of the young
one, and, meanwhile a cap has to
be formed round the nipple into which the snout of the young one fits
tightly, the epiglottis and laryngeal
cartilage become prolonged upwards to form a cone-shaped tube, and the soft
palate becomes prolonged
downwards so as tightly to embrace this tube, in order that the adult will
be able to breathe while taking
water into the mouth and the young while taking in milk. These changes must
be effected completely before
the calf can be born under water. Be it noted that there is no stage
intermediate between being born and
suckled under water and being born and suckled in the air. At the same time
various other anatomical
changes have to take place, the most important of which is the complete
transformation of the tail region.
The hind part of the body must have begun to twist on the fore part, and
this twisting must nave continued
until the sideways movement of the tail developed into an up-and-down
movement. While this twisting went
on the hind limbs and pelvis must have diminished in size, until the latter
ceased to exist as external limbs in
all, and completely disappeared in most, whales." (Dewar D., 1938, pp.23-24)
Descriptions by evolutionists give some idea of the enormity of these
changes: "Evolution had produced a
metamorphosis that Ovid would have loved: it had transformed away their
legs, given them flukes on their tail,
had put their noses on top of their heads" (Zimmer, 2001, p.136); "The
lineage that gave rise to dolphins,
whales, and porpoises went through a transformation just as staggering as
the one that brought vertebrates on land
in the first place" (Zimmer, 1998, p.6).
Paleontologists "cannot even reasonably begin to entertain the hypothesis of
a long, unrecorded interval of
diversification," for whales (Stanley, 1979, p.69). But they had thought
that "the extent of the change
involved in the transformation of a terrestrial mammal into a completely
oceanic one was so great that the
process must have begun at least as long ago as the early Paleocene (~60
mya) and possibly even before that
time, at the end of the Cretaceous period (~65 mya) (Stahl, 1985, p.486).
Then "the oldest specimens [of
whales], dating back more than 40 million years, were fundamentally like
whales today," with "flippers, and
no back legs" (Zimmer, 2001, p.136).
However, with the discovery of even earlier whale fossils the time frame for
this transition has shrunk to only
10-12 million years (Carroll, 1997, p.336; Zimmer, 1995a), or even less
(Wesson, 1991, pp.51-52)!
But since such changes to be preserved must be "locked up"' by speciation
(Gould & Eldredge 1993), that
requires that each major transformation be a new species (or
"chronospecies"). Since the average mammal
species of that Cenozoic Era typically last a million years, "we have only
ten or fifteen chronospecies to
align, end-to-end, to form a continuous lineage connecting our primitive
little mammal with a ... whale"
(Stanley, 1981, p.93). But, "this is clearly preposterous. ... a chain of
ten or fifteen of these might move us
from one small rodentlike form to a slightly different one, perhaps
representing a new genus, but not to a ...
whale" (Stanley, 1981, pp.93-94)!
Adding to the problem is that large mammals, including whales, are limited
in their capacity to change
through random mutations and natural selection, factors including: "long
generation spans (the time between
birth and the ability to give birth)" and "low numbers of progeny produced
per adult" (Ross, 1998, pp.51-
52).
A recent discovery of a 14 myo baleen whale fossil, Eobalaenoptera harrisoni
may create further
problems for evolution by suggesting that "almost-modern-looking whales
lived considerably further back in
time than scientists realized" (ABCNews, 2004a) [to be continued] [top]
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 03:08:07 PM |
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"NILS BÖRJESSON" <borje@ludd.luth.se> wrote in
news:8tZjg.4795$E02.1504@newsb.telia.net:
4. Land mammal-whale transition
Evolution has a major problem with the land mammal to whale
transition. The creationist zoologist, Douglas Dewar,
has summarised the immense changes involved in such a transition:
Therefore godidit. Riiiiiight.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
The laws that require me to NOT kill people I don't like REALLY bug
me, or there would be many less of YOUR kind.
-John Weatherly
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 05:09:32 PM |
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"NILS BÖRJESSON" <borje@ludd.luth.se> wrote in
news:8tZjg.4795$E02.1504@newsb.telia.net:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/PoE/pe13anml.html#nmlsmlslwhltrnstn
Dead on arrival. There are many transitional forms now known from the line
that led to modern Cetaceans.
http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2b.html
Ceationist claim debunked:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC216_1.html
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
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| User: "mel turner" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 04:42:03 PM |
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"NILS BÖRJESSON" <borje@ludd.luth.se> wrote in message
news:8tZjg.4795$E02.1504@newsb.telia.net...
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/PoE/pe13anml.html#nmlsmlslwhltrnstn
4. Land mammal-whale transition
Is this to be part of a series?
Evolution has a major problem with the land mammal to whale transition.
No, it doesn't have any problem at all. There are wonderful land
mammal/whale transitional fossils now known, and we know a whole
lot more about the transition than we did even a few years ago.
http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/
http://darla.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/whaleorigins.htm
http://darla.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/Whale.html
http://darla.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/Biblio.html
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/mammal/cetacea/cetacean.html
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/direpuppy/CetClass.html
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/ambulo.htm
http://holysmoke.org/whale.htm
The
creationist zoologist, Douglas Dewar,
"Creationist zoologist" must be one of the rarest of endangered
species. You may mean someone who is a zoologist in spite of
having creationist beliefs, since there is no such thing as
"creationist zoology".
has summarised the immense changes involved in such a transition:
And did any of these "immense changes" have to happen all at once,
or could they happen by the gradual accumulation of small changes?
The latter, of course.
"Let us notice what would be involved in the conversion of a land
quadruped
into, first a
seal-like creature and then into a whale.
Not too bad, using analogies. Try a somewhat otter-like early
intermediate stage.
The land animal would, while on
land, have to cease using its hind
legs for locomotion and to keep than permanently stretched out backwards
on
either side of the tail and to
drag itself about by using its fore-legs.
No. That's really stupid. No such stage is required anywhere
in the whale transition.
During its excursions in the
water, it must have retained the hind legs
in their rigid position
No, it mustn't. Why must it?
and swum by moving them and the tail from side to
side.
No. Up and down, rather like a beaver does.
As a result of this act of self
denial we must assume that the hind legs eventually be came pinned to the
tail by the growth of membrane.
What a maroon. Whale flukes are all tail, there is no
involvement of hind legs.
Thus the hind part of the body would have become likes that of a seal.
Nope. Seals don't have the hind legs webbed to the tail by a
membrane. Nor do whales.
Snip of more misconceived babble about whale transitionals. All the
actually-required changes can have occurred by gradual small steps.
(Dewar D., 1938, pp.23-24)
Ah, yes 1938. That's when real scientists stopped learning about
whale evolution. [Whereas creationists stopped learning any biology
by 1859.]
Descriptions by evolutionists give some idea of the enormity of these
changes: "Evolution had produced a
metamorphosis that Ovid would have loved: it had transformed away their
legs, given them flukes on their tail,
had put their noses on top of their heads" (Zimmer, 2001, p.136); "The
lineage that gave rise to dolphins,
whales, and porpoises went through a transformation just as staggering as
the one that brought vertebrates on land
in the first place" (Zimmer, 1998, p.6).
And yes, the changes were quite impressive. So what? Somehow you think
large changes can't have occurred, but your logic seems to be elusive.
Recall that we have very nice fossils of all sorts of in-between
stages.
Paleontologists "cannot even reasonably begin to entertain the hypothesis
of
a long, unrecorded interval of
diversification," for whales (Stanley, 1979, p.69).
What a nice example of antievolutionist dishonesty. If you've read the
Zimmer book you quoted, you have to know that we've found a lot of
wonderful land-mammal/cetacean transitionals since Stanley wrote that.
Therefore, no "long, unrecorded interval of diversification" is needed;
the long _recorded_ interval of diversification will do quite nicely,
thank you.
[snip]
Then "the oldest specimens [of
whales], dating back more than 40 million years, were fundamentally like
whales today," with "flippers, and
no back legs" (Zimmer, 2001, p.136).
Not true. What did the rest of Zimmer's sentence say? We've long
known about archaeocete whales that did still have external hind
legs.
However, with the discovery of even earlier whale fossils the time frame
for
this transition has shrunk to only
10-12 million years (Carroll, 1997, p.336; Zimmer, 1995a), or even less
(Wesson, 1991, pp.51-52)!
More blatant lies by omission? Are these "even earlier whale fossils"
also just like modern whales, or are they instead transitionals to the
ancestral land mammals? The latter.
But since such changes to be preserved must be "locked up"' by speciation
(Gould & Eldredge 1993),
Gibberish. They undoubtedly say no such thing.
that
requires that each major transformation be a new species (or
"chronospecies").
You evidently don't even know what "chronospecies" means.
Since the average mammal
species of that Cenozoic Era typically last a million years, "we have only
ten or fifteen chronospecies to
align, end-to-end, to form a continuous lineage connecting our primitive
little mammal with a ... whale"
(Stanley, 1981, p.93). But, "this is clearly preposterous. ... a chain of
ten or fifteen of these might move us
from one small rodentlike form to a slightly different one, perhaps
representing a new genus, but not to a ...
whale" (Stanley, 1981, pp.93-94)!
And yet we have a series of intermediate stages. But whales didn't
evolve from small rodentlike forms, but instead from large amphibious
"hooved" mammals.
Adding to the problem is that large mammals, including whales, are limited
in their capacity to change
through random mutations and natural selection,
What a strange unsupported [and bogus] assertion. How are large
mammals so "limited"?
factors including: "long
generation spans (the time between
birth and the ability to give birth)" and "low numbers of progeny produced
per adult" (Ross, 1998, pp.51-
52).
A recent discovery of a 14 myo baleen whale fossil, Eobalaenoptera
harrisoni
may create further
problems for evolution by suggesting that "almost-modern-looking whales
lived considerably further back in
time than scientists realized" (ABCNews, 2004a) [to be continued] [top]
Gosh. And yet you still manage to omit all mention of all of the
not-almost-modern-looking whale fossils that so firmly connect whales
to land mammals.
And early baleen whale fossils differ from all modern baleen whales
in that they still retain teeth. Not so "almost-modern-looking" after
all.
An antievolutionist quote-mining article like this one goes beyond
mere ignorance into outright dishonesty. To be able to quote-mine
Zimmer, you have to know much better than to present Dewar as saying
anything relevant to modern whale paleontology. Shame on you.
cheers
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 05:34:12 PM |
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In article <e6pudl$9fc$1@gargoyle.oit.duke.edu> "mel turner" <mturner@snipthis.acpub.duke.edu> writes:
"NILS BÖRJESSON" <borje@ludd.luth.se> wrote in message
{...}
Adding to the problem is that large mammals, including whales, are limited
in their capacity to change
through random mutations and natural selection,
What a strange unsupported [and bogus] assertion. How are large
mammals so "limited"?
Geez, don't you know *anything*? Their genes are bigger. HUGE.
In the largest species, the genes can be the size of pepper mills.
And you better believe that all that increased inertia makes
them a LOT harder to divert!
(nice post, by the way)
-- cary
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| User: "Frank Mayhar" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 10:18:33 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:42:03 -0400, mel turner wrote:
(Dewar D., 1938, pp.23-24)
Ah, yes 1938. That's when real scientists stopped learning about
whale evolution. [Whereas creationists stopped learning any biology
by 1859.]
Heh. I didn't read this far. Yep, _that's_ authoritative, all right.
"Pastor Frank" came up with this kind of thing as well. Seems
creationists don't like any real science done in the last seventy years.
--
Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/
http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/
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| User: "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 08:47:18 PM |
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As if we didn't know that cretinists and IDiots lie whenever their lips are
moving. We're soooooo impressed by this poster's babblings... NOT.
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
15 Jun 2006 12:55:14 AM |
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In article <8tZjg.4795$E02.1504@newsb.telia.net>,
"NILS BÖRJESSON" <borje@ludd.luth.se> wrote:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/PoE/pe13anml.html#nmlsmlslwhltrnstn
4. Land mammal-whale transition
Evolution has a major problem with the land mammal to whale transition. The
creationist zoologist, Douglas Dewar,
has summarised the immense changes involved in such a transition:
Poppycock!
Read and learn something:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-05/uof-haw052206.php
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
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| User: "King Nintendoid" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 02:34:46 PM |
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NILS BÖRJESSON wrote:
Something long
Since your arguments are unsatisfactory, I will reply with an
unsatisfactory answer:
If given enough time (large, but finite), 1000 monkeys mashing on
keyboards could recreate all human literature (Usenet posts would take
considerably less time).
If given enough time, a mammal may evolve into a sea-going creature.
Yeah, evolution doesn make sense.. if you are thinking about it from the
mindset that the Earth is only 6000 years old.
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| User: "Brother Bretts" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 02:42:22 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 19:34:46 +0000 (UTC), King Nintendoid
<kingnintendoid@gmail.com> wrote:
NILS BÖRJESSON wrote:
Something long
Since your arguments are unsatisfactory, I will reply with an
unsatisfactory answer:
If given enough time (large, but finite), 1000 monkeys mashing on
keyboards could recreate all human literature (Usenet posts would take
considerably less time).
If given enough time, a mammal may evolve into a sea-going creature.
Yeah, evolution doesn make sense.. if you are thinking about it from the
mindset that the Earth is only 6000 years old.
I don't even waste my time answering most of these creationist
numbskulls. If they cared anything at all about the truth, they'd do
the research themselves.
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| User: "King Nintendoid" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 02:45:11 PM |
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Brother Bretts wrote:
I don't even waste my time answering most of these creationist
numbskulls. If they cared anything at all about the truth, they'd do
the research themselves.
I never answered him, did I? ;)
Making up creative answers is just entertaining. As long as their posts
remain free of any reference to cigarettes of an unspecified brand going
to hell, I'll try and say something that pertains to their post, yet
answers nothing.
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| User: "Stephen Knight" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
15 Jun 2006 09:52:35 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 19:30:12 GMT, "NILS BÖRJESSON"
<borje@ludd.luth.se> wrote:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/PoE/pe13anml.html#nmlsmlslwhltrnstn
4. Land mammal-whale transition
Evolution has a major problem with the land mammal to whale transition. The
creationist zoologist, Douglas Dewar,
has summarised the immense changes involved in such a transition:
It's a done deal any your ilk only ***** about it without any
scientific explanation.
Go away.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 03:02:46 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 19:30:12 GMT, "NILS BÖRJESSON"
<borje@ludd.luth.se> wrote:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/PoE/pe13anml.html#nmlsmlslwhltrnstn
4. Land mammal-whale transition
Evolution has a major problem with the land mammal to whale transition. The
creationist zoologist, Douglas Dewar,
has summarised the immense changes involved in such a transition:
No it doesn't, moron.
Whales have vestigial legs and a pelvis inside their bodies. Different
fossil transitionals have been found of whales with increasingly small
external legs.
What do you imagine you achieve by being so in-your-face with a
mixture of wilful ignorance and deliberate falsehood which tells us
more about you and your "expert" than anything else?
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 03:10:09 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 19:30:12 GMT, in alt.atheism , "NILS BÖRJESSON"
<borje@ludd.luth.se> in <8tZjg.4795$E02.1504@newsb.telia.net> wrote:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/PoE/pe13anml.html#nmlsmlslwhltrnstn
4. Land mammal-whale transition
Evolution has a major problem with the land mammal to whale transition. The
creationist zoologist, Douglas Dewar,
has summarised the immense changes involved in such a transition:
Read Jim Acker's excellent series of posts on this subject. When done
we can discuss the subject:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=whale+acker&as_ugroup=talk.origins&as_usubject=chapter
"Let us notice what would be involved in the conversion of a land quadruped
into, first a
seal-like creature and then into a whale. The land animal would, while on
land, have to cease using its hind legs for locomotion
and to keep than permanently stretched out backwards on
either side of the tail and to
drag itself about by using its fore-legs.
Seal. Sea lion.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
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| User: "Frank Mayhar" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 10:13:51 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 20:30:12 +0000, NILS BÖRJESSON wrote:
4. Land mammal-whale transition
Evolution has a major problem with the land mammal to whale transition. The
creationist zoologist, Douglas Dewar,
has summarised the immense changes involved in such a transition:
Otters. Seals. Dolphins.
(Limb loss happened _after_ the species entered the water, not before.
I'm not even going to mention the rest of the gradual changes.) The
development of cetaceans from land-dwelling ancestors is pretty
well-established these days.
Douglas Dewar is either a complete fucking idiot or he's lying. Anyone
who believes him is a credulous fool.
--
Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/
http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: 4. Land mammal-whale transition |
14 Jun 2006 10:08:53 PM |
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Previously, on alt.atheism, NILS BÖRJESSON in episode
<8tZjg.4795$E02.1504@newsb.telia.net>...
The creationist zoologist
Translation: "Crank who pretends to do science."
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
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