| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Joseph H" |
| Date: |
05 Jan 2005 12:53:10 PM |
| Object: |
A Charter for Humanity |
The vast work involved in constructing a social creature with the
capacity for knowledge in contrast with the minor work required to
glean knowledge and to propagate society allows one to speculate that
this creature will quickly:
1: Know the origin and development of the universe
2: Know the origin,composition and development of the planet it
inhabits
3: Know the origin, nature and development of the life it shares
4: Know its own history
5: Rectify the errors and injustices that are part of that history
6: Establish the principles and practices of a decent society for all
7: Value it own unique place in the vast process of which it is a
part
Most of the above is already in train. Ongoing structural problems
delay the implementation of some of the rest. A fractious
individuality, vacillating between indifference and impatience,
doesnīt help. To advance the process a future where such capacities
and such principles and such practices already exist might have to be
imagined. Call this Humanisation: the ultimate earthbound expression
of the finite creature that we are. Other futures, where we are less
earthbound and less finite, I leave to later, luckier people than I.
Probably such people will see our age as primitive, sordid and
barbaric.
Many, outraged by our behaviour, will have difficulties with this
analysis. So be it.
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "John Jones" |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
05 Jan 2005 01:29:54 PM |
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"Many, outraged by our behaviour, will have difficulties with this
analysis. So be it."
I am not outraged by any supposed applicability of your vision to the
human. I am outraged at the bragging of it. I will demolish your
vision.
An amoeba is just as social as ourselves. A creature is as social as
befits the creature. Anything more or less would be a Frankenstein
monster. Yet you dare to impose human sociality as a goal for all life.
Your rationale for this is that only by this means can all the secrets
of the universe be unveiled. A poor excuse with poor rewards. The
universe is a purely human construction. And intelligence?The
intelligence of a human is no more than the intelligence of the amoeba.
Both human and amoeba exhibit infinite intelligence by being able to
solve their problems immediately. Infinite intelligence is completely
dependent on definition of the task, and the amoeba's tasks are just as
much a mystery to us as our tasks are a mystery to the amoeba.
I have shot your awful vision down in flames. May the amoeba spare you.
JJ
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
06 Jan 2005 12:03:42 PM |
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John Jones wrote:
"Many, outraged by our behaviour, will have difficulties with this
analysis. So be it."
I am not outraged by any supposed applicability of your vision to the
human.
I suggested some would be outraged by our behaviour, not by my views,
such as they are. It=B4s a small point.
I am outraged at the bragging of it. I will demolish your
vision.
That=B4s not bragging?
An amoeba is just as social as ourselves. A creature is as social as
befits the creature. Anything more or less would be a Frankenstein
monster. Yet you dare to impose human sociality as a goal for all
life.
Absolutely not. I utterly respect your point of view - but let=B4s stay
fairly intelligent here. There is no suggestion in my post that "human
sociality" is a goal for anybody or anything. I just state it as a fact
and then go on to say that because of our particular ability to
globalise our creations - an ability, incidentally, unpossessed by any
other creature (least of all your much-beloved amoeba!)- that we will
in time create a global society.
Your rationale for this is that only by this means can all the
secrets
of the universe be unveiled.
Again, no rationale. Just a projection of what I believe will happen.
Your love of linkages is undermining your case.
A poor excuse with poor rewards. The
universe is a purely human construction.
That=B4s a new one on me. I get what you=B4re saying, but it=B4s a little
too Zen (or maybe just zany) to be taken seriously. Really, it=B4s a
kind of back-handed compliment to the human being: because "we" can=B4t
comprehend it all then it just doesn=B4t exist!!!It exists, baby! It=B4s
out there and it=B4s waiting for your noble spirit.
And intelligence?The
intelligence of a human is no more than the intelligence of the
amoeba.
Okay....!
Both human and amoeba exhibit infinite intelligence by being able to
solve their problems immediately.
What nonsense, J.J.. So, first, all problems are equal. A new law? And
then we solve all our problems immediately. I wish!
Infinite intelligence is completely
dependent on definition of the task, and the amoeba's tasks are just
as
much a mystery to us as our tasks are a mystery to the amoeba.
How do you know?
I have shot your awful vision down in flames.
AAAAAAHHHHRRRRR!!!!!
May the amoeba spare you.
I am the amoeba!
JJ
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| User: "John Jones" |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
06 Jan 2005 01:47:13 PM |
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'I utterly respect your point of view'
It isn't necessarily my point of view. I merely typed out the words
that were written on a piece of paper that I found blowing about the
street. Does this mean I don't get the respect?
'our particular ability to
globalise our creations - an ability, incidentally, unpossessed by any
other creature'
I got some arm-pit bacteria telling me different.
Also, just as a reminder, all the scientists I know about have marbles
for brains. For example, Albert Einstein's brain was 12 per cent marble
free.
JJ
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
05 Jan 2005 07:18:47 PM |
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Joseph H wrote:
The vast work involved in constructing a social creature with
the capacity for knowledge in contrast with the minor work
required to glean knowledge and to propagate society allows
one to speculate that this creature will quickly:
1: Know the origin and development of the universe
You're off to a bad start. That will probably never be known. No
one was there taking notes. Again, you're substituting fancy
prose for substance.
--
Dave
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "joe baby" |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
06 Jan 2005 12:36:17 PM |
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Joseph H wrote:
The vast work involved in constructing a social creature with the
capacity for knowledge in contrast with the minor work required to
glean knowledge and to propagate society allows one to speculate that
this creature will quickly:
1: Know the origin and development of the universe
2: Know the origin,composition and development of the planet it
inhabits
3: Know the origin, nature and development of the life it shares
4: Know its own history
5: Rectify the errors and injustices that are part of that history
6: Establish the principles and practices of a decent society for
all
7: Value it own unique place in the vast process of which it is a
part
Most of the above is already in train. Ongoing structural problems
delay the implementation of some of the rest. A fractious
individuality, vacillating between indifference and impatience,
doesn=B4t help. To advance the process a future where such capacities
and such principles and such practices already exist might have to be
imagined. Call this Humanisation: the ultimate earthbound expression
of the finite creature that we are. Other futures, where we are less
earthbound and less finite, I leave to later, luckier people than I.
Probably such people will see our age as primitive, sordid and
barbaric.
Many, outraged by our behaviour, will have difficulties with this
analysis. So be it.
Me, fractious me, difficulties? Never! Joseph H - what does the H stand
for? Hilarious? - you are some sad dude!
Chameleon...or Neolemach ( at night)
=20
=20
Joseph H
=20
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "LadyinRed" |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
06 Jan 2005 09:25:26 PM |
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8. Know thyself, thy limitations, thy hidden agenda, thy perfections,
thy flaws, and know that thou art but a blip in time. Then, construct
an environment which doesn't impose these revelations down anyone's
throat and we have an ideal social creature.
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| User: "joe baby" |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
07 Jan 2005 05:01:46 AM |
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Okay, a few questions, if I may:
1 - Why "Charter"? Where does the chartering come in?
2 - How can you say it is easy to glean knowledge?
3 - What are "the principles and practices" of a decent society?
4 - Why do we need to imagine this future before we will ever possess
it?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
07 Jan 2005 12:23:43 PM |
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joe baby wrote:
Okay, a few questions, if I may:
1 - Why "Charter"? Where does the chartering come in?
We have many "charters" already - for human rights etc.It=B4s a way of
clarifying, of classifying. This charter seeks - literally - to chart
the prime targets human beings might expect to attain in the years
ahead. It=B4s a quantification of realisable and desirable achievement
for the creature that we are.
2 - How can you say it is easy to glean knowledge?
I=B4m told - unreliably - that the Universe is about 12 billions years
old. It took all that length of time to sort out the chaos of the
beginning, to tie up matter into solar systems etc, to allow the earth
to settle down, to form and develop life. 99% of what we know has been
gathered in the last 250 years, a minuscule fraction of the earlier
figure. The proposition is advanced on that basis.
3 - What are "the principles and practices" of a decent society?
I spoke above of targets. To achieve targets we must first of all
clarify them, The principles of a decent society are not yet generally
agreed. Some would want more individual freedoms than others; likewise,
democracy, or the extent of democracy, is in question; the rights of
particular groups; labour-rights etc etc.I believe that a far-reaching
sense of the human phenomenon and human achievements will iron out many
of these differences and allow us establish and ratify and put into
practice a comprehensive social blueprint.
4 - Why do we need to imagine this future before we will ever possess
it?
Because, as observed above, lack of vision in itself hinders advance.
To be aware of the targets mentioned here and to be aware of a human
role in the cosmos must, I believe, broaden the mind, must lessen the
influence of particular local and historical anomalies, must ease the
path of those men and women who seek to move us forward. Equally, the
possession of such a charter - as with any charter - must impart
direction and purpose to our efforts.
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "Publius" |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
10 Jan 2005 05:03:41 PM |
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wrote in news:1105122223.415946.161360
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
We have many "charters" already - for human rights etc.Itīs a way of
clarifying, of classifying. This charter seeks - literally - to chart
the prime targets human beings might expect to attain in the years
ahead. Itīs a quantification of realisable and desirable achievement
for the creature that we are.
2 - How can you say it is easy to glean knowledge?
I spoke above of targets. To achieve targets we must first of all
clarify them, The principles of a decent society are not yet generally
agreed. Some would want more individual freedoms than others; likewise,
democracy, or the extent of democracy, is in question; the rights of
particular groups; labour-rights etc etc.I believe that a far-reaching
sense of the human phenomenon and human achievements will iron out many
of these differences and allow us establish and ratify and put into
practice a comprehensive social blueprint.
Joseph, there are two fundamamental fallacies running through your entire
series of posts on this topic. The first is called the "Organic
Fallacy." It is the belief that humans are in some sense part of a
collective organism; that this organism has goals or a destiny which
transcends the goals of the individuals who make it up, and that the
paramount duty of every individual is to contribute to the furtherance of
these transcendent goals.
The second is the Fallacy of Value -- the belief that values are
properties of things, and are objective in somewhat the same sense that
shape and mass are objective. That leads to the notion that there are
"true" values and "false" values, that people adopt "false" values out of
ignorance, and would adopt "true" values if they can be sufficiently
"enlightened."
The Organic Fallacy is not a logical fallacy. It is simply an empirical
mistake (and should perhaps be called the "Organic Mistake"). It ignores
empirical facts which can be easily verified: that there are no
collective goals, and no collective entity to pursue them. The only goal-
pursuing entities to be found in any human society are individuals, and
the only goals to be found in any modern civilized society are the goals
of those individuals. Once the goals of those diverse individuals are
identified and listed, there will be no more to find. The other readily
verfiable fact is that the goals discovered among those individuals
differ. Most of the goals on those individual lists will be shared by
various others, but the entire lists of no two individuals will be the
same, and there will be no goal or value appearing on all lists.
Every utopian scheme and every totalitarian movement in history has
rested on some variant of the Organic Fallacy, usually fortified with
claims of transcendent values.
So there can be no "comprehensive social blueprint" that presupposes
universal goals or transcendent values. Society is not an organism
pursuing collective goals. It is instead a collection of individuals each
seeking their owne goals, and who socialize in order to find others who
share them or whose own goals are complementary, and thus who may be
willing to cooperate with them. There is no collective purpose, and no
one has any duty to further any such purpose that might be alleged.
You might want to read the essay "Some Conceptual Impediments to Liberal
Thought," here:
http://209.126.173.140
To be aware of the targets mentioned here and to be aware of a human
role in the cosmos must, I believe, broaden the mind, must lessen the
influence of particular local and historical anomalies, must ease the
path of those men and women who seek to move us forward.
Although the vagueness I complained of with respect to your earlier posts
remains, the paragraph above certainly prompts an image of an army of
enthusiastic syncophants goose-stepping along behind an enlightened
Messiah toward some Grand Destiny. But the road they're following leads
nowhere. It can't even be found on the map.
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| User: "pensul" |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
12 Jan 2005 01:39:43 AM |
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So there can be no "comprehensive social blueprint" that presupposes
universal goals or transcendent values. Society is not an organism
pursuing collective goals. It is instead a collection of individuals each
seeking their owne goals, and who socialize in order to find others who
share them or whose own goals are complementary, and thus who may be
willing to cooperate with them. There is no collective purpose, and no
one has any duty to further any such purpose that might be alleged.
Assuming that the goals of goal-pursuing entities are valuable to them, it
follows from your Fallacy of Value that they would not belong to them. To whom,
therefore, do these goals belong? And if they do not belong to anybody, of
what value could they be?
--
"The world of existence is an emanation of the merciful attribute of God."
Abdul-Baha
http://www.costarricense.cr/pagina/ernobe
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| User: "joe baby" |
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| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
07 Jan 2005 12:49:21 PM |
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wrote:
joe baby wrote:
Okay, a few questions, if I may:
1 - Why "Charter"? Where does the chartering come in?
We have many "charters" already - for human rights etc.It=B4s a way of
clarifying, of classifying. This charter seeks - literally - to chart
the prime targets human beings might expect to attain in the years
ahead. It=B4s a quantification of realisable and desirable achievement
for the creature that we are.
Realisable? You are joking, of course?
2 - How can you say it is easy to glean knowledge?
I=B4m told - unreliably - that the Universe is about 12 billions years
old. It took all that length of time to sort out the chaos of the
beginning, to tie up matter into solar systems etc, to allow the
earth
to settle down, to form and develop life. 99% of what we know has
been
gathered in the last 250 years, a minuscule fraction of the earlier
figure. The proposition is advanced on that basis.
3 - What are "the principles and practices" of a decent society?
I spoke above of targets. To achieve targets we must first of all
clarify them, The principles of a decent society are not yet
generally
agreed. Some would want more individual freedoms than others;
likewise,
democracy, or the extent of democracy, is in question; the rights of
particular groups; labour-rights etc etc.I believe that a
far-reaching
sense of the human phenomenon and human achievements will iron out
many
of these differences and allow us establish and ratify and put into
practice a comprehensive social blueprint.
Might it not be more true to say that any effort to impose your view
would actually bring increased disagreement with all that would lead
to?
4 - Why do we need to imagine this future before we will ever
possess
it?
Because, as observed above, lack of vision in itself hinders advance.
To be aware of the targets mentioned here and to be aware of a human
role in the cosmos must, I believe, broaden the mind, must lessen
the
influence of particular local and historical anomalies, must ease the
path of those men and women who seek to move us forward. Equally, the
possession of such a charter - as with any charter - must impart
direction and purpose to our efforts.
I, for one, don=B4t agree already! So what chance do you have with 7
billion others?
Joe baby
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