| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Joseph H" |
| Date: |
11 Jan 2005 03:53:28 PM |
| Object: |
A Charter for Humanity |
Publius wrote;
Joseph, there are two fundamamental fallacies running through your
entire
series of posts on this topic. The first is called the "Organic
Fallacy." It is the belief that humans are in some sense part of a
collective organism; that this organism has goals or a destiny which
transcends the goals of the individuals who make it up, and that the
paramount duty of every individual is to contribute to the furtherance
of
these transcendent goals.
Joseph replies; Good Publius, you are a beacon of intelligence and
reason. But I don't agree with you. There is no such fallacy in my
writing. I am well aware of the individual and individualist reality
of human existence. It is the nature of our existence. But, like it
or not (and it seems you don't), we grow more aware of each other, we
live longer and in more peace and comfort, we know more of our past
and our surroundings..etc, etc. All I'm saying is that we will
eventually - and not too far in the future, I hope - advance that
process to the point suggested in my writing. We will still be
individual. Indeed, the measure of our achievement is that we will
achieve what we achieve in the teeth of individual disagreement and a
honed capacity to say NO
Publius wrote: The second is the Fallacy of Value -- the belief that
values are
properties of things, and are objective in somewhat the same sense
that
shape and mass are objective. That leads to the notion that there are
"true" values and "false" values, that people adopt "false" values out
of
ignorance, and would adopt "true" values if they can be sufficiently
"enlightened."
Joseph replies: Mmmmmm, nobody on this side of the screen is talking
about true and false values. I am talking about measurable
achievement, about a vast reduction of poverty and suffering, about a
vast increase in knowledge, about a sense of collective deliverance. I
am certainly not talking about anything being foisted or forced on
anybody. I happen to believe that we are intelligent enough to
recognise our achievement and gifted enough to convey or transmit that
sense of recognition. But this won't happen willy nilly. As with
everything else today these values will have to be sold. I'm just a
salesman at hear.
Publius wrote: Every utopian scheme and every totalitarian movement in
history has
rested on some variant of the Organic Fallacy, usually fortified with
claims of transcendent values.
Joseph replies: True, but why am I yawning? Because this has nothing
to do with me.
Joseph wrote: > To be aware of the targets mentioned here and to be
aware of a human
role in the cosmos must, I believe, broaden the mind, must lessen the
influence of particular local and historical anomalies, must ease the
path of those men and women who seek to move us forward.
Publius commented: Although the vagueness I complained of with respect
to your earlier posts
remains, the paragraph above certainly prompts an image of an army of
enthusiastic syncophants goose-stepping along behind an enlightened
Messiah toward some Grand Destiny. But the road they're following
leads
nowhere. It can't even be found on the map.
Joseph concludes: Buy a bigger map. A mind-map. And open it.
Go in peace, Good publius.
Joseph H
.
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: A Charter for Humanity |
11 Jan 2005 04:50:42 PM |
|
|
Joseph H wrote:
Publius wrote; Joseph, there are two fundamamental fallacies
running through your entire series of posts on this topic.
The first is called the "Organic Fallacy." It is the belief
that humans are in some sense part of a collective organism;
that this organism has goals or a destiny which transcends the
goals of the individuals who make it up, and that the
paramount duty of every individual is to contribute to the
furtherance of these transcendent goals.
Joseph replies; Good Publius, you are a beacon of intelligence
and reason. But I don't agree with you.
Then how can you disagree with a beacon of intelligence and
reason unless you are not intelligent and unreasonable or blind
to the beacon?
--
Dave
UDP for WebTV
.
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