| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Paul Abeles" |
| Date: |
28 Jan 2004 05:26:01 PM |
| Object: |
A critique of Israel Shahak |
In reading Shahak's writings, one gets the impression that his upbringing
was not just "orthodox" in the sense that we now use the word. His
claims - - that one should curse a non-Jewish cemetery, or that a non-Jew
cannot be saved if it means violating Shabbat -- do line up with certain
streaks of eastern-European superstitious drivel which sadly have
accumulated in some Jewish communities over the centuries. These streaks
come from several sources and types of conditions, but the formula is
usually something like this:
1. The Jewish populace of a relatively isolated area spends many years
unconnected to the Jewish community at large, falling into a certain degree
of ignorance with regard to Jewish legal writings which, like any other
written work, can only be understood in their cultural context.
2. Antagonistic relations with neighboring non-Jewish communities lead to a
perverted reading of complicated works such as the Talmud, resulting in
distorted Jewish "laws" which the Talmud's authors would have rejected, and
which most Jews do as well.
http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/israel_shahak.htm
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| User: "amigocabal" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
28 Jan 2004 06:27:02 PM |
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I am not a jew and will leave judgment of Shahak on religious grounds up to
you-Jews! Do not forget however that Maimonides, had to escape to a
muslim country in order to complete the enormous task of organizing Talmud,
because he was threaten by his own Jews of Jerusalem, 24/7. However, take a
good look what Shahak says about the Holohoax, and how Jews of
Ordnungspolizei, eagerly helped kill other Jews!
"Paul Abeles" <nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dyXRb.32614$Wa.24976@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
In reading Shahak's writings, one gets the impression that his upbringing
was not just "orthodox" in the sense that we now use the word. His
claims - - that one should curse a non-Jewish cemetery, or that a non-Jew
cannot be saved if it means violating Shabbat -- do line up with certain
streaks of eastern-European superstitious drivel which sadly have
accumulated in some Jewish communities over the centuries. These streaks
come from several sources and types of conditions, but the formula is
usually something like this:
1. The Jewish populace of a relatively isolated area spends many years
unconnected to the Jewish community at large, falling into a certain
degree
of ignorance with regard to Jewish legal writings which, like any other
written work, can only be understood in their cultural context.
2. Antagonistic relations with neighboring non-Jewish communities lead to
a
perverted reading of complicated works such as the Talmud, resulting in
distorted Jewish "laws" which the Talmud's authors would have rejected,
and
which most Jews do as well.
http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/israel_shahak.htm
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
28 Jan 2004 10:54:12 PM |
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On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:27:02 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
However, take a good look what Shahak says about the Holohoax, and how Jews of
Ordnungspolizei, eagerly helped kill other Jews!
Sometimes you do anything to stay alive.
--
"If we really know Truth, we do not fear hearing falsehoods or half-truths; if we are not sure of the truth - we shudder and try to shout down every utterance." - A. J. Mims
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "amigocabal" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
29 Jan 2004 07:39:38 AM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:re4h109lalmd133galabvsoh77s6ip2pha@Pern.rk...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:27:02 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
However, take a good look what Shahak says about the Holohoax, and how
Jews of
Ordnungspolizei, eagerly helped kill other Jews!
Sometimes you do anything to stay alive.
Including murdering your own friends and family? How characteristic of you
scum!
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
29 Jan 2004 08:46:14 PM |
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On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:39:38 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:re4h109lalmd133galabvsoh77s6ip2pha@Pern.rk...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:27:02 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
However, take a good look what Shahak says about the Holohoax, and how Jews of
Ordnungspolizei, eagerly helped kill other Jews!
Sometimes you do anything to stay alive.
Including murdering your own friends and family?
If the choices are limited to suicide or murder, some people choose
murder. If you've never been put in that position you're not
qualified to judge those who have been.
--
"To assume the existence of an unperceivable being ... does not facilitate understanding
the orderliness we find in the perceivable world."
- Letter to an Iowa student who asked, What is God? July, 1953; Einstein Archive 59-085
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "amigocabal" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
30 Jan 2004 08:20:41 AM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:n9hj10d0lclquatnljsobl0eulqm1tce31@Pern.rk...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:39:38 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:re4h109lalmd133galabvsoh77s6ip2pha@Pern.rk...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:27:02 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
However, take a good look what Shahak says about the Holohoax, and
how Jews of
Ordnungspolizei, eagerly helped kill other Jews!
Sometimes you do anything to stay alive.
Including murdering your own friends and family?
If the choices are limited to suicide or murder, some people choose
murder. If you've never been put in that position you're not
qualified to judge those who have been.
Yes I ahave been put in that position, and chose to fight!
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| User: "Jim F." |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
30 Jan 2004 08:35:39 AM |
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"amigocabal" <pinkspider123@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:ZKtSb.2616$jH6.2176@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:n9hj10d0lclquatnljsobl0eulqm1tce31@Pern.rk...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:39:38 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:re4h109lalmd133galabvsoh77s6ip2pha@Pern.rk...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:27:02 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
However, take a good look what Shahak says about the Holohoax, and
how Jews of
Ordnungspolizei, eagerly helped kill other Jews!
Sometimes you do anything to stay alive.
Including murdering your own friends and family?
If the choices are limited to suicide or murder, some people choose
murder. If you've never been put in that position you're not
qualified to judge those who have been.
Yes I ahave been put in that position, and chose to fight!
Alex Serendin, as everyone here knows, fought in every
major war of the twentieth century.
Jim F.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
30 Jan 2004 09:22:26 PM |
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On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:20:41 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
If the choices are limited to suicide or murder, some people choose
murder. If you've never been put in that position you're not
qualified to judge those who have been.
Yes I ahave been put in that position, and chose to fight!
Then you weren't put into the situation of kill or die, you were put
into the situation of kill, die or fight back.
--
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
- (Will Rogers)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
28 Jan 2004 06:04:57 PM |
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On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:26:01 GMT, "Paul Abeles"
<nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
In reading Shahak's writings, one gets the impression that his upbringing
was not just "orthodox" in the sense that we now use the word. His
claims - - that one should curse a non-Jewish cemetery, or that a non-Jew
cannot be saved if it means violating Shabbat -- do line up with certain
streaks of eastern-European superstitious drivel which sadly have
accumulated in some Jewish communities over the centuries.
Some Chassidic sects consider themselves to be Orthodox.
--
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains
premature today."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Paul Abeles" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
28 Jan 2004 06:16:40 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:lfjg10d5vq1j71sbmbqae22n7vkb5vdsul@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:26:01 GMT, "Paul Abeles"
<nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
In reading Shahak's writings, one gets the impression that his upbringing
was not just "orthodox" in the sense that we now use the word. His
claims - - that one should curse a non-Jewish cemetery, or that a non-Jew
cannot be saved if it means violating Shabbat -- do line up with certain
streaks of eastern-European superstitious drivel which sadly have
accumulated in some Jewish communities over the centuries.
Some Chassidic sects consider themselves to be Orthodox.
They are generally included in a broad definition of orthodox.
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| User: "amigocabal" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
28 Jan 2004 06:28:21 PM |
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"Paul Abeles" <nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IhYRb.32658$Wa.4100@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:lfjg10d5vq1j71sbmbqae22n7vkb5vdsul@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:26:01 GMT, "Paul Abeles"
<nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
In reading Shahak's writings, one gets the impression that his
upbringing
was not just "orthodox" in the sense that we now use the word. His
claims - - that one should curse a non-Jewish cemetery, or that a
non-Jew
cannot be saved if it means violating Shabbat -- do line up with
certain
streaks of eastern-European superstitious drivel which sadly have
accumulated in some Jewish communities over the centuries.
Some Chassidic sects consider themselves to be Orthodox.
They are generally included in a broad definition of orthodox.
Five million Jews, five million sects!
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| User: "Tilly" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
29 Jan 2004 09:05:09 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
Some Chassidic sects consider themselves to be Orthodox.
All Chassisic sects are Orthodox, without exception.
Tilly
--
Bright1_3@hotmail.com
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: A critique of Israel Shahak |
30 Jan 2004 09:23:45 PM |
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On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:05:09 +1300, "Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com>
posted in alt.atheism:
Al Klein wrote:
Some Chassidic sects consider themselves to be Orthodox.
All Chassisic sects are Orthodox, without exception.
Some Chassidic sects consider the Orthodox to be Goyim.
--
"Christianity has already had the chance to govern
the world according to its own ethical standards.
It was called the "Dark Ages".
- Bill, The Avender
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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